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Whats the point of brawling?


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Honestly, Brawl is one of the things I like a fair bit and the ability to double on initiation gives a ton of firepower to stronger units, helping slower units in particular.  It's not as solid on EP, but it can still help Vs heavier weapon types for some units by being light to help avoid and you can still have an ally trade to different weapons. Good options for Grappler are slower units who could use the speed boost or fast and still strong enough units, because regardless the CA you unlock for mastery is very solid, while War Master's also a great class with a brilliant mastery skill.

Also, once you hit B+ rank, get the Killer Gauntlets, those are legit my favourite regular weapon in this game.

Anything in context to a specific playthrough you want to ask?

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It's basically low-weight, low-power brave weapons that can only be equipped by infantry (both because it makes sense and to give infantry units something only they can have). 

As for units, the obvious answer is characters with a proficiency in brawling. Most of these characters are heavy-hitters like Dedue, Raphael and Caspar who overall are either on the slower side for the first two or a bit lacking in defense, in which case it is a big help to them. 

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45 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

As for units, the obvious answer is characters with a proficiency in brawling. Most of these characters are heavy-hitters like Dedue, Raphael and Caspar who overall are either on the slower side for the first two or a bit lacking in defense, in which case it is a big help to them.

Another good choice might be Yuri. His natural class progression is sword-based, which tends to be pretty lackluster in 3H, and Wyvern Lord is out of the question since he's got banes in literally all the requirements. But he's got an amazing speed growth and his dex is good too, so he could make a pretty nice War Master dodgetank/crit machine, as long as you're willing to push through his axe bane (which you need to for Death Blow anyway) and pick up Brawl Avo +20 from War Monk. His speed means that he'll be able to reliably quad fast enemies, and his crest effect (preventing enemy counterattacks) just so happens to be a perfect fit for this setup too. Just add the Fetters of Dromi (or Chalice of Beginnings if you wanna get really crazy lol) and you're set.

He also looks absolutely gorgeous as a War Master.

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4 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Another good choice might be Yuri. His natural class progression is sword-based, which tends to be pretty lackluster in 3H, and Wyvern Lord is out of the question since he's got banes in literally all the requirements. But he's got an amazing speed growth and his dex is good too, so he could make a pretty nice War Master dodgetank/crit machine, as long as you're willing to push through his axe bane (which you need to for Death Blow anyway) and pick up Brawl Avo +20 from War Monk. His speed means that he'll be able to reliably quad fast enemies, and his crest effect (preventing enemy counterattacks) just so happens to be a perfect fit for this setup too. Just add the Fetters of Dromi (or Chalice of Beginnings if you wanna get really crazy lol) and you're set.

He also looks absolutely gorgeous as a War Master.

I wouldn't know; I didn't get the DLC. 

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2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

It's basically low-weight, low-power brave weapons that can only be equipped by infantry (both because it makes sense and to give infantry units something only they can have). 

As for units, the obvious answer is characters with a proficiency in brawling. Most of these characters are heavy-hitters like Dedue, Raphael and Caspar who overall are either on the slower side for the first two or a bit lacking in defense, in which case it is a big help to them. 

You can dismount and use them, too. Of course, Fistfaire is locked to the Grappler line, but that doesn't really change all to much of the combat viability of non-Grapplers. As if Fliers weren't already broken enough...

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Imo the main qualities of brawling in Three Houses are:

  • brave weapon-effect
    • units with good strength obliterate things
    • good damage output
  • combat art with 3 consecutive hits when in grappler class is an even better brave-effect
  • low-weight, therefore not slowing units down a lot
    • don't get doubled as often as other melee weapon types early on
  • tomebreaker
    • together with brave-effect can usually realiably ORKO mages without taking a counterhit
  • not weak to another breaker-skill
    • more consistent hit-rate than other melee weapons
  • requirement for War Master, which leads to Quick Reposte skill
    • prevents unit from getting doubled in enemy phase when above 50% health
    • good for units with bad speed
    • good for units with enough HP/defence to stay above 50% health after getting hit once

 

Setting aside the obvious choices of Raphael, Caspar, Dedue, Alois and Balthus: 

Jeritza, Felix, Byleth, Gilbert, Ferdinand, Sylvain and Dimitri should also be able to pull off a good Brawling build.

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Throwing in a second recommendation for War Master Yuri. It’s beautiful to watch.

Anyway, another thing I tend to see is people wondering why you’d use gauntlets over other brave weapons which have more might. The main benefits are 1) accessibility, (since they can be used from E rank and unlike other brave weapons require cheaper and more common materials to repair) and 2) combining the brave effect with other effects (like the Killer Knuckles which is honestly one of the most purely destructive weapons in the game, or the aura knuckles which suddenly give you brave magic attacks).

So yeah, I’d say (IMO) gauntlets are one of the best weapon types. Definitely worth making at least one unit use it.

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I really like the design of gauntlets because of how different they feel to all the other weapon types. There really isn't a whole lot of difference between lances and axes, for instance, but gauntlets are very much their own thing. I'm hoping that in the future we might see similar levels of differentiation between the main three melee weapon types, especially if the weapon triangle stays gone.

Specifically, gauntlets are great on player phase but mediocre to bad on enemy phase. Without the brave effect, and with their low might, they generally aren't going to be doing all that much damage on enemy phase and they also lack any 1-2 range options (combat arts excepted) which also makes it much harder to use them for EP builds. Given that Three Houses tends to be more focused on Player Phase than Enemy Phase, that leaves gauntlets in a really good place in terms of power level, but means they do have enough of a drawback to stop them from feeling truly overpowered.

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3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

You can dismount and use them, too. Of course, Fistfaire is locked to the Grappler line, but that doesn't really change all to much of the combat viability of non-Grapplers. As if Fliers weren't already broken enough...

Huh; I didn't know that. Still, you are having to basically act as infantry when using it. 

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It's definitely got a notable advantage over infantry, because you can still get flying movement on turn 1, and again both on and after any turn which you aren't able to attack (or are able to attack just as effectively with an axe, etc.).

On the other hand one of the advantage of non-flying classes (and arguably the only reason not to make every physical unit a flier in optimum play) is that there's a wider array of battalions available, so since your fist-user won't be flying much, going for one of the Fistfaire classes is probably the way to go. I prefer Grappler because it's more mobile (fist-users suffer like crazy on any turn they can't get to within 1 square of an enemy, you really want their mobility as good as possible) and has Fierce Iron Fist, but WM has its uses too. Women have to go War Cleric, but at least Brawl Avo +20 is a really cool skill.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
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2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Huh; I didn't know that. Still, you are having to basically act as infantry when using it. 

Somewhat. You can still Dragoon it up - fly in, dismount, beat a fool to death, and then hide in the woods you landed in. The following turn, just mount up and fly away, as you can't Canto the turn you mount.

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5 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

i'unno, just feels good.

This was what drove me, on my first playthrough (VW), to have Leonie punch people to death. Even stuck as a Warrior. I just saw her do it once, and gauntlets looked so right on her. Mind you, there's no gameplay rationale here, she was just fun to use this way.

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I didn’t consider brawling as an option on my very first play through. Until a little later on when I was replaying it again on Golden Deer, I used Raphael and Felix as Warmasters and they were great (on normal mode anyways). Especially Felix thanks to his crest.

So I can consider having a grappler and/or warmaster among my ranks since they are very good.

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Honestly, I find gauntlets are not that good, as their low might in conjunction with range lock hurts when a lot of the time, being up close is the worst thing you can do (I'll pass on going up close against assassins and swordmasters). Doesn't help that most of the units that are good with them either suck, have better options, or are only playable on one route.

On 12/19/2020 at 4:26 PM, L3xandr3 said:

You can dismount and use them, too. Of course, Fistfaire is locked to the Grappler line, but that doesn't really change all to much of the combat viability of non-Grapplers. As if Fliers weren't already broken enough...

The issue is, if you're aiming for a flying class, you're probably not bothering to train in brawling.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Doesn't help that most of the units that are good with them either suck, have better options, or are only playable on one route.

Brawling's legit the best choice for Guyleth, Yuri, Felix and Catherine. And I wouldn't exactly say any of them suck. Even the ones who aren't as good like Dedue, Caspar, Raphael, Balthus or Alois won't do much better than War Master either. If a unit excels at brawling, chances are it's gonna be their best option.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I find gauntlets are not that good, as their low might in conjunction with range lock hurts when a lot of the time, being up close is the worst thing you can do (I'll pass on going up close against assassins and swordmasters). Doesn't help that most of the units that are good with them either suck, have better options, or are only playable on one route

One range lock doesn’t matter if a) the enemy dies or b) you can survive even if you fail to kill. The units that specialise in brawling tend to have high strength that makes fulfilling option a not too challenging. Especially from the mid game onwards, when you get access to death blow, attack boosting battalions, and higher strength mods from classes. As for option b, units like Dedue, Balthus, Raphael, Felix, Bylad, Yuri, etc are all bulky enough to take a hit or two if they fail to kill, even on Maddening. Brawling units typically aren’t your frail mage type who should never see a counterattack ever. Some of them, like Felix and Yuri, may even be able to avoid doubles from everything except Swordmasters thanks to their high speed.

The biggest issue with gauntlets IMO is that they’re unremarkable at the beginning of the game, but they’re the easiest weapons to snowball with thanks to the brave effect.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The issue is, if you're aiming for a flying class, you're probably not bothering to train in brawling.

Yeah, more oft than not. It's nice, if only for Healing Focus, but you'll likely need other skill ranks.

1 hour ago, RainbowMoon said:

Brawling's legit the best choice for Guyleth, Yuri, Felix and Catherine. And I wouldn't exactly say any of them suck. Even the ones who aren't as good like Dedue, Caspar, Raphael, Balthus or Alois won't do much better than War Master either. If a unit excels at brawling, chances are it's gonna be their best option.

YES. This exactly. Swords are nice, but Gauntlets are better. Assuming you got the DLC, you can dodge-tank with more than 1 Gauntlet user, meanwhile Swords are stuck at 1, and that requires you to either not use your Dancer, or use them as a combatant.

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11 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Yeah, more oft than not. It's nice, if only for Healing Focus, but you'll likely need other skill ranks.

YES. This exactly. Swords are nice, but Gauntlets are better. Assuming you got the DLC, you can dodge-tank with more than 1 Gauntlet user, meanwhile Swords are stuck at 1, and that requires you to either not use your Dancer, or use them as a combatant.

Plus with DLC it does give Catherine (the only non dlc female character to have a boon in brawling) something different to do. Sure War Cleric may not be the best class there is but it’s a female’s only option to use Fistfare. Plus Nimble Combo if anything else is a good combat art for her to use.

Yes Fierce Iron Fist is better, but it’s Grappler only. Nimble Combo you can bring to any class.

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On 12/21/2020 at 5:43 PM, RainbowMoon said:

Brawling's legit the best choice for Guyleth, Yuri, Felix and Catherine. And I wouldn't exactly say any of them suck. Even the ones who aren't as good like Dedue, Caspar, Raphael, Balthus or Alois won't do much better than War Master either. If a unit excels at brawling, chances are it's gonna be their best option.

Abandoning Windsweep for the former two is a VERY hard sell, in my book. Also, War Cleric is viable... In Awakening, that is. Not so much here. Felix is good in just about any physical class, so that further drains any motivation to have him use gauntlets.

22 hours ago, Anathaco said:

One range lock doesn’t matter if a) the enemy dies or b) you can survive even if you fail to kill. The units that specialise in brawling tend to have high strength that makes fulfilling option a not too challenging. Especially from the mid game onwards, when you get access to death blow, attack boosting battalions, and higher strength mods from classes. As for option b, units like Dedue, Balthus, Raphael, Felix, Bylad, Yuri, etc are all bulky enough to take a hit or two if they fail to kill, even on Maddening. Brawling units typically aren’t your frail mage type who should never see a counterattack ever. Some of them, like Felix and Yuri, may even be able to avoid doubles from everything except Swordmasters thanks to their high speed.

The biggest issue with gauntlets IMO is that they’re unremarkable at the beginning of the game, but they’re the easiest weapons to snowball with thanks to the brave effect.

At the same time, when braves come into play, other weapon types can do that, except those don't top out at a measly 4 might. Which begs the question, why bother?

22 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

YES. This exactly. Swords are nice, but Gauntlets are better. Assuming you got the DLC, you can dodge-tank with more than 1 Gauntlet user, meanwhile Swords are stuck at 1, and that requires you to either not use your Dancer, or use them as a combatant.

War Monk/Cleric is a hot garbage class that makes the likes of Mortal Savant look godly, unfortunately. Doesn't help that you have to invest in two conflicting weapon ranks to access it -weapon ranks that only two characters have boons in both (and as an extra kick in the nuts, it's not even a good class for either of them).

Edited by Shadow Mir
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52 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

At the same time, when braves come into play, other weapon types can do that, except those don't top out at a measly 4 might. Which begs the question, why bother?

 

On 12/20/2020 at 10:43 AM, Anathaco said:

Anyway, another thing I tend to see is people wondering why you’d use gauntlets over other brave weapons which have more might. The main benefits are 1) accessibility, (since they can be used from E rank and unlike other brave weapons require cheaper and more common materials to repair) and 2) combining the brave effect with other effects (like the Killer Knuckles which is honestly one of the most purely destructive weapons in the game, or the aura knuckles which suddenly give you brave magic attacks).

If the low might of gauntlets was actually an issue then brawlers would never be able to ORKO. And yet in my experience gauntlet users are consistently my strongest offensive units every time I play, even the bad ones like Caspar or Raphael. Other brave weapons have more might, true, but generally speaking gauntlets get the job done too, and have the other benefits mentioned above. 
 

Also, as irrelevant as it may be for units like Raphael or Dedue, for units like Felix, Yuri, and Byleth, the lower weight gives them more opportunities to quad enemies, which makes up for any damage missed by the lower might.

Edited by Anathaco
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57 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

If the low might of gauntlets was actually an issue then brawlers would never be able to ORKO. And yet in my experience gauntlet users are consistently my strongest offensive units every time I play, even the bad ones like Caspar or Raphael. Other brave weapons have more might, true, but generally speaking gauntlets get the job done too, and have the other benefits mentioned above. 

Well, if Raphael, etc., can KO something with silver gauntlets, a character with significantly lower strength could do the same with a brave weapon or brave combat art... which is notable because those options are available from classes with more mobility, more range, or both. It's definitely a bit of a problem brawling has: you're stuck at range 1 and low mobility, and your killing power isn't really better than other options that are available, at least once brave weapons and combat arts come online. And speaking anecdotally, characters with medium-strength like Caspar definitely do run into problems here (and I think the generally low ratings Caspar gets suggests I'm not alone), and there's certainly a reason nobody suggests gauntlets for lower-str units like Ashe or Ignatz.

Before they do, there is a window where gauntlets are quite potent (after you get Death Blow in particular), though it's worth mentioning that's also the same window where magic damage is having an easy time getting OHKOs too.

I don't think brawling is bad (better than swords, for sure) and I definitely think Mir is overhating on them, but it's at best a distant third for physical builds in this game IMO, behind fliers and sniper/bow knight, because mobility and range are a big deal in this game, and it's not hard for those builds to ORKO enemies either.

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12 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Well, if Raphael, etc., can KO something with silver gauntlets, a character with significantly lower strength could do the same with a brave weapon or brave combat art... which is notable because those options are available from classes with more mobility, more range, or both. It's definitely a bit of a problem brawling has: you're stuck at range 1 and low mobility, and your killing power isn't really better than other options that are available, at least once brave weapons and combat arts come online. And speaking anecdotally, characters with medium-strength like Caspar definitely do run into problems here (and I think the generally low ratings Caspar gets suggests I'm not alone), and there's certainly a reason nobody suggests gauntlets for lower-str units like Ashe or Ignatz.

Before they do, there is a window where gauntlets are quite potent (after you get Death Blow in particular), though it's worth mentioning that's also the same window where magic damage is having an easy time getting OHKOs too.

I don't think brawling is bad (better than swords, for sure) and I definitely think Mir is overhating on them, but it's at best a distant third for physical builds in this game IMO, behind fliers and sniper/bow knight, because mobility and range are a big deal in this game, and it's not hard for those builds to ORKO enemies either.

True enough. To be clear I wasn't suggesting that brawling is something that should go on literally everyone that can. but it certainly is a great offensive option for the characters that can use it. And I definitely have a bias towards it since I limit the number of fliers I use typically, so everyone struggles with mobility for me.

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