Whats the point of brawling?

[L3xandr3]

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

War Monk/Cleric is a hot garbage class that makes the likes of Mortal Savant look godly, unfortunately. Doesn't help that you have to invest in two conflicting weapon ranks to access it -weapon ranks that only two characters have boons in both (and as an extra kick in the nuts, it's not even a good class for either of them).

I was referring to its' Mastery Skill (Brawling Avoid +20), not the class. The class is quite bad, as most mixed classes are. The half magic uses doesn't help. It's already worse than Grappler or Bishop, that was completely unnecessary.

[GarEEE]

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

On 12/22/2020 at 12:43 AM, RainbowMoon said:

Brawling's legit the best choice for Guyleth, Yuri, Felix and Catherine. And I wouldn't exactly say any of them suck. Even the ones who aren't as good like Dedue, Caspar, Raphael, Balthus or Alois won't do much better than War Master either. If a unit excels at brawling, chances are it's gonna be their best option.

Abandoning Windsweep for the former two is a VERY hard sell, in my book. Also, War Cleric is viable... In Awakening, that is. Not so much here. Felix is good in just about any physical class, so that further drains any motivation to have him use gauntlets.

While admittedly Felix IS good in pretty much every physical class, that doesn't take away from the fact that many of his strengths and shortcomings fit well with gauntlets. He has high strength which scales best with brave weapons/gauntlets. He has high enough speed to sometimes compete with enemies on maddening, while also ideally wanting to use his heavy personal shield, meaning he cares about weight, which gauntlets have little of. His crest ability also scales with every attack which he does most of with brave weapons/gauntlets.

 

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

On 12/22/2020 at 2:37 AM, Anathaco said:

One range lock doesn’t matter if a) the enemy dies or b) you can survive even if you fail to kill. The units that specialise in brawling tend to have high strength that makes fulfilling option a not too challenging. Especially from the mid game onwards, when you get access to death blow, attack boosting battalions, and higher strength mods from classes. As for option b, units like Dedue, Balthus, Raphael, Felix, Bylad, Yuri, etc are all bulky enough to take a hit or two if they fail to kill, even on Maddening. Brawling units typically aren’t your frail mage type who should never see a counterattack ever. Some of them, like Felix and Yuri, may even be able to avoid doubles from everything except Swordmasters thanks to their high speed.

The biggest issue with gauntlets IMO is that they’re unremarkable at the beginning of the game, but they’re the easiest weapons to snowball with thanks to the brave effect.

At the same time, when braves come into play, other weapon types can do that, except those don't top out at a measly 4 might. Which begs the question, why bother?

Because when comparing brave weapons with gauntlets you also need to consider the costs. To make and repair brave weapons you need a special material, that cannot be bought, therefore you won't be able to use brave weapons all the time. Gauntlets however are the cheapest physical weapon type in their base form that CAN be used all the time with even less investment than other basic physical weapon types.

And even if you go by peak performance you will then need to compare brave weapons to Killer Gauntlets+, where you can then argue, whether the extra might or crit are better. (and even then Killer Gauntlets+ are made from rebuyable materials, so still easier accessible)

[------]

13 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Abandoning Windsweep for the former two is a VERY hard sell, in my book.

What exactly is so special about Windsweep that you'd choose it over everything War Master has to offer? Never mind the fact that Byleth doesn't get it until A in swords, it's a fairly underwhelming CA. It's not a brave art like Swift Strikes or an utterly broken one like Vengeance or Raging Storm. The only thing that stands out about it is that enemies can't counterattack. Which isn't all that impressive when Byleth and Yuri should be getting one round kills on the player phase anyway. Dead stuff can't counterattack either. Yuri even gets the added bonus of his crest doing the same thing as Windsweep on regular attacks that can (and will) double.

I'm not sure why you'd stay in a sword class for this and pass up a War Master build that has insane crit and avoid on top of being able to reliably quad.

[Dark Holy Elf]

IMO the biggest perk of Windsweep is it lets you safely chip certain bosses with high critical who might be too durable to reliably one-round depending on your team. Namely, the two most important bosses in Chapter 17 of CF (there are some on other routes, too, but you get critical-nulling accessories on those routes). However, there's no need to give Byleth or Yuri a subpar build just for that, when Jeritza rolls up with Windsweep almost ready to go (he's just a few sword exp away, he'll get it passively), and he has the highest strength/accuracy of the Windsweep users anyway.

(Even setting aside that there are a variety of other ways to safely kill those bosses.)

[Shadow Mir]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:07 PM, L3xandr3 said:

I was referring to its' Mastery Skill (Brawling Avoid +20), not the class. The class is quite bad, as most mixed classes are. The half magic uses doesn't help. It's already worse than Grappler or Bishop, that was completely unnecessary.

I know that. The thing is, I was asking if Brawl Avoid +20 is good enough to justify going through a class that's that bad, which imho it ain't.

19 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

What exactly is so special about Windsweep that you'd choose it over everything War Master has to offer? Never mind the fact that Byleth doesn't get it until A in swords, it's a fairly underwhelming CA. It's not a brave art like Swift Strikes or an utterly broken one like Vengeance or Raging Storm. The only thing that stands out about it is that enemies can't counterattack. Which isn't all that impressive when Byleth and Yuri should be getting one round kills on the player phase anyway. Dead stuff can't counterattack either. Yuri even gets the added bonus of his crest doing the same thing as Windsweep on regular attacks that can (and will) double.

I'm not sure why you'd stay in a sword class for this and pass up a War Master build that has insane crit and avoid on top of being able to reliably quad.

Not getting countered. Duh! Also, Windsweep is likely to be a thing well before War Master, as a master tier class, can even claim to be relevant (this is especially true for Yuri thanks to his being weak in axes). What's more, crits are not something I find reliable. They're something you pray to work. It doesn't help that gauntlets have low might, meaning very high strength is all but mandatory to get anything out of them (having your strongest weapon [that isn't a relic] have all of 4 might is a shitty position to be in, even if you get two attacks on initiation, aka, once per turn). One-rounding does not necessarily mean that you get to avoid a counter, either (and this is ignoring that gauntlets are not any better at doing so than other weapons anyhow because their might is so low). Also, news flash: Yuri's crest is unreliable (it only has a 1/5 activation chance. I shouldn't have to tell you that is not good odds. Also, it could potentially activate when the enemy has already countered, accomplishing a fat load of nothing), whereas Windsweep shuts down counters, no questions asked. So I'd say you're way off base to call it "underwhelming", especially when you're hyping stuff I'd be a moron to rely on. I'd probably get more mileage out of than Raging Storm, which is tied to a weapon that has both bottom-of-the-barrel accuracy AND needs rare materials to repair. All this said, brawling is pretty much dependent on not getting strength screwed. Which is not good, as I'm pretty much at the mercy of the RNG, even more so than usual.

21 hours ago, GarEEE said:

While admittedly Felix IS good in pretty much every physical class, that doesn't take away from the fact that many of his strengths and shortcomings fit well with gauntlets. He has high strength which scales best with brave weapons/gauntlets. He has high enough speed to sometimes compete with enemies on maddening, while also ideally wanting to use his heavy personal shield, meaning he cares about weight, which gauntlets have little of. His crest ability also scales with every attack which he does most of with brave weapons/gauntlets.

Problem is, if he's one rounding with gauntlets, he's one-rounding with other brave weapons (which is much easier, mind you, thanks to not having 4 might at most). ALso, one, I'm not sure the Aegis Shield is that great, as it could cost Felix doubles, and second, I wouldn't bank on crest activations.

21 hours ago, GarEEE said:

Because when comparing brave weapons with gauntlets you also need to consider the costs. To make and repair brave weapons you need a special material, that cannot be bought, therefore you won't be able to use brave weapons all the time. Gauntlets however are the cheapest physical weapon type in their base form that CAN be used all the time with even less investment than other basic physical weapon types.

And even if you go by peak performance you will then need to compare brave weapons to Killer Gauntlets+, where you can then argue, whether the extra might or crit are better. (and even then Killer Gauntlets+ are made from rebuyable materials, so still easier accessible)

Even then, as braves have much more might than gauntlets... yeah. Granted, gauntlets do require less expensive materials to repair, but only having 4 might at most still hurts... also, I don't consider the Killer Knuckles reliable.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[------]

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Not getting countered. Duh! Also, Windsweep is likely to be a thing well before War Master, as a master tier class, can even claim to be relevant (this is especially true for Yuri thanks to his being weak in axes).

Agreed that Windsweep has some utility before War Master becomes available, but you're essentially arguing that it's worth staying in a sword class for the whole game just for this one CA. You have to consider the opportunity cost here. Swordfaire classes just aren't that good. You'd be gimping any character's potential by keeping them in one. Assassin's the only one I'd consider useful, and even then it's outclassed by Falcon/Wyvern/War Master builds. Every character geared towards swords, including Byleth and Yuri, have better class options. Just look at Petra, our "canon" Assassin. Even she's better off ditching the sword and hopping on a wyvern. I'm not saying you can't beat the game using sword classes, you have every right to play how you want. But telling people that swordies are better units than War Masters becuase of Windsweep is a straight up lie.

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

What's more, crits are not something I find reliable.

That's fine. I never said War Masters relied on crits anyway.

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

One-rounding does not necessarily mean that you get to avoid a counter, either

Did you miss the part where I said gauntlet users make highly effective dodge tanks thanks to the weapon's low weight and Brawl Avo +20 from War Monk/Cleric? And that's not even adding in Byleth and Yuri's speed. Letting the enemy counter isn't exactly gonna kill them that easily.

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, news flash: Yuri's crest is unreliable (it only has a 1/5 activation chance. I shouldn't have to tell you that is not good odds. 

 

On 12/23/2020 at 9:31 AM, RainbowMoon said:

Yuri even gets the added bonus of his crest doing the same thing as Windsweep on regular attacks that can (and will) double.

 

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

So I'd say you're way off base to call it "underwhelming", especially when you're hyping stuff I'd be a moron to rely on.

Only a moron would use Swift Strikes? What the hell are you on, dude? Having Brave effect on cheaper weapons like Silver+ and Killer+ is extremely useful mid/late game when people like Sylvain and Seteth may have trouble doubling faster enemies like Swordmasters.

Vengeance Bernadetta is a risky playstyle, I'll grant you that. But played right she's essentially a boss delete button and a better Death Knight killer than Lysithea.

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

 I'd probably get more mileage out of than Raging Storm, which is tied to a weapon that has both bottom-of-the-barrel accuracy AND needs rare materials to repair.

Hit +20 is typically a thing people pick up if they plan to use Raging Storm a lot. And Agarthium really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. I got tons of it from the Titanus in the Arianrhod chapter, and you can grind it out in desert monster battles too. Hell, the Dark Merchant even sells it sometimes.

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

All this said, brawling is pretty much dependent on not getting strength screwed. Which is not good, as I'm pretty much at the mercy of the RNG, even more so than usual.

Again, you're free to play how you want. But you can't just go around making false claims based solely on personal bias. I have my odd playstyle preferences too. I like to recruit and use Ashe simply because I like his character. But I'm not gonna start telling people that Ashe is objectively better than Leonie, because that's just wrong.

Edited December 24, 2020 by RainbowMoon

[Dark Holy Elf]

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I know that. The thing is, I was asking if Brawl Avoid +20 is good enough to justify going through a class that's that bad, which imho it ain't.

War Monk/Cleric is not an especially bad class if you're planning to punch things anyway. Statwise it's pretty similar to any other physical class of its tier (+2 str mod is fine, one above Grappler even, 6 move + mage mobility is fine too, being able to toss out healing is a nice bonus). If your end goal is War Master, you might as well go War Monk over Grappler as an Advanced class, since you can carry Brawl Avo+20 into War Master, but not Fierce Iron Fist. And of course if we're talking about a female fist-user like Catherine or FByleth, then War Cleric is by far your best option if you want to use gauntlets.

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Not getting countered. Duh!

I mean... things can't counter you if they're dead, and they can't counter if you attack them from outside range. They also can't counter gambits. There are lots of ways to avoid counters that don't involve building Byleth all the way to A in swords, or staying in a Swordfaire class to maintain its power. As already observed, Swordfaire classes are pretty underwhelming group (Swordmaster and Hero are outright terrible IMO).

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

 I'd probably get more mileage out of than Raging Storm, which is tied to a weapon that has both bottom-of-the-barrel accuracy AND needs rare materials to repair.

I've shown you before how Raging Storm can achieve near-100 accuracy against every enemy on Maddening. It doesn't even involve Hit+20! I can post the math again if you're actually curious, but given that you ignored it last time, I'm not hopeful.

Each Titanus provides enough Agarthium to repair Aymr when broken, so as long as you break two of them, you at worst you get five uses for Chapter 13-16, five more for Chapter 17, and five more for Chapter 18. Fifteen uses is certainly more than I've used Windsweep on any one playthrough... probably more than I've used it on all my playthroughs combined if I'm being honest.

[Barren]

59 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

War Monk/Cleric is not an especially bad class if you're planning to punch things anyway. Statwise it's pretty similar to any other physical class of its tier (+2 str mod is fine, one above Grappler even, 6 move + mage mobility is fine too, being able to toss out healing is a nice bonus). If your end goal is War Master, you might as well go War Monk over Grappler as an Advanced class, since you can carry Brawl Avo+20 into War Master, but not Fierce Iron Fist. And of course if we're talking about a female fist-user like Catherine or FByleth, then War Cleric is by far your best option if you want to use gauntlets.

I mean... things can't counter you if they're dead, and they can't counter if you attack them from outside range. They also can't counter gambits. There are lots of ways to avoid counters that don't involve building Byleth all the way to A in swords, or staying in a Swordfaire class to maintain its power. As already observed, Swordfaire classes are pretty underwhelming group (Swordmaster and Hero are outright terrible IMO).

I've shown you before how Raging Storm can achieve near-100 accuracy against every enemy on Maddening. It doesn't even involve Hit+20! I can post the math again if you're actually curious, but given that you ignored it last time, I'm not hopeful.

Each Titanus provides enough Agarthium to repair Aymr when broken, so as long as you break two of them, you at worst you get five uses for Chapter 13-16, five more for Chapter 17, and five more for Chapter 18. Fifteen uses is certainly more than I've used Windsweep on any one playthrough... probably more than I've used it on all my playthroughs combined if I'm being honest.

How do you achieve that kind of accuracy? If anything I’m interested in what your method is whenever I try a maddening run for crimson flower

[Objeckts]

14 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I know that. The thing is, I was asking if Brawl Avoid +20 is good enough to justify going through a class that's that bad, which imho it ain't.

Is War Cleric that bad though? As far as advance classes go its pretty great. War Cleric has 6 move, theif movement, & Fistfaire. Its not Wyvern Lord for sure, but its better than something like Assassin or SM. If you are planning on going War Master in the end (instead of Grappler), may as well pick up one of the better abilities in the game from War Cleric.

14 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

What's more, crits are not something I find reliable. They're something you pray to work. 

If you are not able to rely on crits, then you also shouldn't find low accuracy and high weight brave weapons reliable. Brave Axe+ has 70% accuracy and 14 weight, making its hits unrelaible. Killer Knuckle have 30% Crit. Combined with a +20% Crit Battalion, average felix growths, Brawl Crit +10, and a Crit Ring, Felix easily hits >85% crit chance. Factoring in enemy luck around 20, that gives him a 65% chance to crit with a single attack and an 87% chance to crit with two attacks. If you are using Fierce-Iron Fist, the actual chance for a single crit is ~98%. If you are in With WM's 20% crit, the chance is also ~98%.

14 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Problem is, if he's one rounding with gauntlets, he's one-rounding with other brave weapons (which is much easier, mind you, thanks to not having 4 might at most). ALso, one, I'm not sure the Aegis Shield is that great, as it could cost Felix doubles, and second, I wouldn't bank on crest activations.

Not necessarily. A Brave Axe+ has a weight of 14. Even with ~40 Str, Felix is still going to suffer -6 AS, whereas Killer Gauntlets would not. It is way easier to quad attack with gauntlets than Brave weapons. His crest is more reliable than it seems, with 4 attacks it has a 12% chance of not proccing at least once.

14 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Even then, as braves have much more might than gauntlets... yeah. Granted, gauntlets do require less expensive materials to repair, but only having 4 might at most still hurts... also, I don't consider the Killer Knuckles reliable.

The 4 Mt is not that important as the game goes on. Battalions give +8, Death Blow gives +6, WM has +5 Str, and Fistfaire is an extra +5. Higher accuracy and crit is way more important.

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 hours ago, Barren said:

How do you achieve that kind of accuracy? If anything I’m interested in what your method is whenever I try a maddening run for crimson flower

Sure thing.

Aymr: 60
+10 from Raging Storm = 70
+15 from Cichol Wyverns = 85 (you can get more, I'm assuming Wyvern for this)
+20 from Axe Prowess L5 = 105
+40 from linked attacks (Edelgard A-supports every non-Anna siege tome user available on CF, which helps) = 145
+20 from Dex, lowballing it = 165
+10 from Accuracy Ring = 175

That's enough for 100 hit against everything in the last two maps except for (barely) the Falcon Knights and three named opponents (C17 lance infantry boss, C18 wyvern boss, C18 swordmaster boss). Lancebreaker can help against all but the last two. Even against them the lowest real hit is still over 90.

Note that Brave Axe+ has the same accuracy as Raging Storm, so all the same figures apply there, too.

You can quibble the linked attack bonuses but keep in mind the vast majority of enemies have much lower evade than this (the average is around 40), so you won't need them except when going against the dodgiest targets.

4 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Not necessarily. A Brave Axe+ has a weight of 14. Even with ~40 Str, Felix is still going to suffer -6 AS, whereas Killer Gauntlets would not. It is way easier to quad attack with gauntlets than Brave weapons. His crest is more reliable than it seems, with 4 attacks it has a 12% chance of not proccing at least once.

In fairness, (a) the other Brave weapons are 1-3 points lighter, and (b) if you're building axes, you're probably also building armour for the defence certification boost, so Weight-3 can reduce this further. Finally, Wyvern Lord is ~2 points faster than the Fistfaire classes... in other words, if Felix can quad with one build, he can probably quad with the other.

[Barren]

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Sure thing.

Aymr: 60
+10 from Raging Storm = 70
+15 from Cichol Wyverns = 85 (you can get more, I'm assuming Wyvern for this)
+20 from Axe Prowess L5 = 105
+40 from linked attacks (Edelgard A-supports every non-Anna siege tome user available on CF, which helps) = 145
+20 from Dex, lowballing it = 165
+10 from Accuracy Ring = 175

That's enough for 100 hit against everything in the last two maps except for (barely) the Falcon Knights and three named opponents (C17 lance infantry boss, C18 wyvern boss, C18 swordmaster boss). Lancebreaker can help against all but the last two. Even against them the lowest real hit is still over 90.

Note that Brave Axe+ has the same accuracy as Raging Storm, so all the same figures apply there, too.

You can quibble the linked attack bonuses but keep in mind the vast majority of enemies have much lower evade than this (the average is around 40), so you won't need them except when going against the dodgiest targets.

So stuff like siege tome support from Dorothea or Constance for example, and multiple A rank supports will enable Edelgard to reliably hit something with a Brave Axe  + or the Raging Storm CA. I was actually thinking that can be helpful because whenever I get around my maddening Crimson Flower run I would like to try Constance as a dancer because Crimson Flower does not have the Hunting by Daybreak fight. Still that's good to note and quite insightful. My initial plan with her was to go Solider (because she could use all the extra hit rate she can get), Brigand, Pegasus Knight, Wyvern Rider and Wyvern Lord. As much as I did wanted to like Armored Lord and Emperor, I can't just go with the slightly higher HP, Defense and Charm. Especially since WL trumps Emperor in just about every other way. And I always like using Accuracy Ring on my main Axe users since they can use the boost.

I guess word to the wise: Build your team that revolves around supporting our Adrestian Emperor. Still thanks! That's pretty awesome

[LJ_Reflet]

I've been lurking this thread for a bit cause I actually like brawling, and a lot of what I wanna say has already been said but here's my input cause there's a lot I disagree with:

On 12/24/2020 at 2:58 PM, Shadow Mir said:

I know that. The thing is, I was asking if Brawl Avoid +20 is good enough to justify going through a class that's that bad, which imho it ain't.

Tbh, any Avoid +20 is significantly helpful, and is especially helpful for the designated brawling units like Dedue, Caspar, and Rafael who are notably slower and would appreciate the extra avoid--as an extra 20% DOES make a difference. If anything, it's not that hard to just pick up the mastery and reclass into Grappler or War Master which are inherently better than War Monk/Cleric (but I honestly wouldn't know, since I literally just started Cindered Shadows lol). 

On 12/24/2020 at 2:58 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Not getting countered. Duh! Also, Windsweep is likely to be a thing well before War Master, as a master tier class, can even claim to be relevant (this is especially true for Yuri thanks to his being weak in axes). What's more, crits are not something I find reliable. They're something you pray to work. It doesn't help that gauntlets have low might, meaning very high strength is all but mandatory to get anything out of them (having your strongest weapon [that isn't a relic] have all of 4 might is a shitty position to be in, even if you get two attacks on initiation, aka, once per turn). One-rounding does not necessarily mean that you get to avoid a counter, either (and this is ignoring that gauntlets are not any better at doing so than other weapons anyhow because their might is so low). Also, news flash: Yuri's crest is unreliable (it only has a 1/5 activation chance. I shouldn't have to tell you that is not good odds. Also, it could potentially activate when the enemy has already countered, accomplishing a fat load of nothing), whereas Windsweep shuts down counters, no questions asked. So I'd say you're way off base to call it "underwhelming", especially when you're hyping stuff I'd be a moron to rely on. I'd probably get more mileage out of than Raging Storm, which is tied to a weapon that has both bottom-of-the-barrel accuracy AND needs rare materials to repair.

I also don't really get your argument about how Windsweep alone is better than the Brawling classes as a whole? The only characters that learn it are Yuri, Byleth, Dimitri, and Jeritza---and Byleth and Jeritza are the two who have boons in Brawling to compare. On top of that, all these characters have good enough strength to compensate for the low might of gauntlets. Windsweep even has -5 durability, which is relatively high. I don't think a single combat art is enough to argue that you think brawling and gauntlets are bad lmao. Yeah, preventing counters is nice, but saying this one combat art is better than a whole-ass class line that offers a lot more is a stretch.

On 12/24/2020 at 2:58 PM, Shadow Mir said:

All this said, brawling is pretty much dependent on not getting strength screwed. Which is not good, as I'm pretty much at the mercy of the RNG, even more so than usual.

I don't see no one getting strength screwed with Byleth, Dedue, Felix, Raphael, Caspar, Catherine, Balthus, or Jeritza if you were to put them in brawling, but I guess dat RNG is  m e r c i f u l 🥴

On 12/24/2020 at 2:58 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Problem is, if he's one rounding with gauntlets, he's one-rounding with other brave weapons (which is much easier, mind you, thanks to not having 4 might at most).

idk man, if he's one-rounding with other brave weapons, he might as well one-round with extra crit from killer knuckles 👀

[Shadow Mir]

On 12/25/2020 at 10:32 PM, Tenma said:

idk man, if he's one-rounding with other brave weapons, he might as well one-round with extra crit from killer knuckles 👀

At the same time, if he's one-rounding with other braves, gambling on a crit from Killer Knuckles sounds silly and dumb, as I see it. ...And to be honest, if I wanted to gamble on crits, I;'d rather use a Wo Dao or Cursed Ashiya Sword instead, as those have more crit than Killer Knuckles.

On 12/24/2020 at 10:53 AM, RainbowMoon said:

Agreed that Windsweep has some utility before War Master becomes available, but you're essentially arguing that it's worth staying in a sword class for the whole game just for this one CA. You have to consider the opportunity cost here. Swordfaire classes just aren't that good. You'd be gimping any character's potential by keeping them in one. Assassin's the only one I'd consider useful, and even then it's outclassed by Falcon/Wyvern/War Master builds. Every character geared towards swords, including Byleth and Yuri, have better class options. Just look at Petra, our "canon" Assassin. Even she's better off ditching the sword and hopping on a wyvern. I'm not saying you can't beat the game using sword classes, you have every right to play how you want. But telling people that swordies are better units than War Masters becuase of Windsweep is a straight up lie.

Where did I say that they (referring to sword classes) were better? Because I never did say they were better. And if you wanna talk opportunity cost, I have one for you: Remember all the hype Wyvern Lord gets? The limited amount of good flying battalions means that I'm practically forced to limit myself in terms of how many flying units I use, lest opportunity cost bite me in the ass, considering the low-end flying battalions don't hold a candle to the paralogue battalions.

On 12/24/2020 at 10:53 AM, RainbowMoon said:

Only a moron would use Swift Strikes? What the hell are you on, dude? Having Brave effect on cheaper weapons like Silver+ and Killer+ is extremely useful mid/late game when people like Sylvain and Seteth may have trouble doubling faster enemies like Swordmasters.

Vengeance Bernadetta is a risky playstyle, I'll grant you that. But played right she's essentially a boss delete button and a better Death Knight killer than Lysithea.

Why do you assume I was talking about Swift Strikes? Because I wasn't. What I WAS getting at, however, was your mention of the crit boost War Master gets, as well as your mention of Yuri's Crest.

On 12/24/2020 at 10:53 AM, RainbowMoon said:

Hit +20 is typically a thing people pick up if they plan to use Raging Storm a lot. And Agarthium really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. I got tons of it from the Titanus in the Arianrhod chapter, and you can grind it out in desert monster battles too. Hell, the Dark Merchant even sells it sometimes.

I don't remember the Dark Merchant selling it. Also, consider the sources of Agarthium - Giant Crawlers and Titanuses. It's theoretically possible that you never ever see the former, as they only appear in the desert, which you only go to in Claude's paralogue; otherwise, you have to pray an auxiliary battle takes place there. And even then, there's the chance they drop Venomstones instead once their armor is broken. While Titanuses drop them as well, their crit chance makes them extremely dangerous - so much so, in fact, that I find them bad enough to potentially avoid dealing with altogether in Crimson Flower, where you don't get halved damage from monsters or crit negation. And even if I wasn't dissuaded from fighting them, the Agarthium would likely be better used to repair the Scythe of Sariel. Also of note, Edelgard has a weakness in bows, meaning she's gonna have a hard time getting Hit +20.

On 12/24/2020 at 11:31 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

War Monk/Cleric is not an especially bad class if you're planning to punch things anyway. Statwise it's pretty similar to any other physical class of its tier (+2 str mod is fine, one above Grappler even, 6 move + mage mobility is fine too, being able to toss out healing is a nice bonus). If your end goal is War Master, you might as well go War Monk over Grappler as an Advanced class, since you can carry Brawl Avo+20 into War Master, but not Fierce Iron Fist. And of course if we're talking about a female fist-user like Catherine or FByleth, then War Cleric is by far your best option if you want to use gauntlets.

Ehh, honestly, I find the conflicting ranks needed to be the dealbreaker - I find it hard at best, and virtually impossible at worst to justify investing in both brawling and faith. Especially when my "reward" is a a class that, far as I'm concerned, is outright awful.

On 12/24/2020 at 11:31 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I mean... things can't counter you if they're dead, and they can't counter if you attack them from outside range. They also can't counter gambits. There are lots of ways to avoid counters that don't involve building Byleth all the way to A in swords, or staying in a Swordfaire class to maintain its power. As already observed, Swordfaire classes are pretty underwhelming group (Swordmaster and Hero are outright terrible IMO).

Counterattack is a thing, and most of the nastiest enemies have it, so yeah. Also, gambits only have one or two uses.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Dark Holy Elf]

13 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Counterattack is a thing, and most of the nastiest enemies have it, so yeah. Also, gambits only have one or two uses.

Counterattack is indeed a thing that exists, but obviously the vast majority of enemies don't have it. But even against those, various other options exist. I just don't think it's worth it to dedicate an incredible amount of Byleth's training just to get this combat art, when there are so many other ways that take less investment of dealing with boss counterattacks:

-most of them need a critical hit to kill you on a counter (at least your best units), and on all routes except CF, there are critical-nulling accessories available.

-on CF, you get a unique character who all but joins with Windsweep, so you should just use his version of it instead of building Byleth for it.

-the Blessing gambit allows you to survive crits/fatal counters. Guard adjutants allow you to survive doubles, if those are an issue. You can have a unit with 2 HP and 0 speed survive a counter from a boss with any attack, speed, and crit if they have both.

-many bosses can be reduced to 0 hit (or close) on the player phase by high-evade characters because of linked attack bonuses

-many of the bosses in question can be killed in one attack, via brave weapon, brave combat art, Vengeance, Luna, Knightkneeler (against you-know-who), etc.

-Charges of gambits are limited, but enemies with Counterattack are even more limited. Only in two battles do you face more than one (Chapter 17 CF and Chapter 17 VW). The bigger concern is that a couple of the prominent human ones do have very high Charm and the Commander skill, so they are hard to hit directly and don't take much damage... but you don't need to do much to finish them with something from the above list.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

At the same time, if he's one-rounding with other braves, gambling on a crit from Killer Knuckles sounds silly and dumb, as I see it. ...And to be honest, if I wanted to gamble on crits, I;'d rather use a Wo Dao or Cursed Ashiya Sword instead, as those have more crit than Killer Knuckles.

In fact a Swordmaster (Crit +10) with the Wo Dao (30 Crit) has the same Crit value as a War Master (Crit +20) with the Killer Knuckles (20 Crit) - both have 40, before accounting for stats and prowess. And of course, the Knuckles have the Brave effect, so there's a much higher chance of at least one crit. Even if the War Master is using the Wo Dao (30 + 20 = 50), that's a lower chance of one crit.

But let's go to extremes, and compare the Cursed Ashiya Sword+ (50 Crit) and the Killer Knuckles+ (30 Crit) on the highest-crit class, War Master (Crit +20). With the Sword, each hit has 70 crit rate (again, before accounting for outside factors, and assuming perfect accuracy) - so in 2 hits, there's a 49% chance of two crits, 42% of 1 crit, and 9% of no crits. With the Knuckles, each hit has 50 crit - so in 4 hits, there's a 6.25% chance of 4 crits, 25% of 3 crits, 37.5% of 2 crits, 25% of 1 crit, and 6.25% of 0 crits.

So while the Knuckles have a lower Crit rate, because they are brave, they have a higher chance of delivering a crit. Notably, the cursed Ashiya Sword+ has a 70% chance of critting before a possible counter-attack, while the Killer Knuckles+ have a 75% chance. The Knuckles have a lower Mt, yes, but War Master's Fistfaire partially makes up for this. Say a foe can be one-shot with a Cursed Ashiya Sword crit, or with a Killer Knuckles crit-and-hit. In this case, the War Master has a better shot of killing-before-counter with the Killer Knuckles. And what about hit rates? Well, the Knuckles have 80 hit, so they're better here too than the Ashiya Sword, with 70.

Are the Wo Dao and/or Cursed Ashiya Sword better bets on enemy phase? Yes, but with how brave mechanics work in 3H, Gauntlets (and other brave weapons) just aren't good on enemy phase. I was referring to their player-phase performance - in which case, your best bet at scoring a crit is through the Killer Knuckles+.

[------]

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Where did I say that they (referring to sword classes) were better? Because I never did say they were better.

What exactly are you doing then? Putting units like Byleth and Yuri in Falcon/Wyvern but still clinging to those damn swords because "muh Windsweep", even if it means passing up Lancefaire or Axefaire? Because it seems to me that if you're hyping up a sword CA as the best thing since sliced bread, then by extension you're telling people to stick with the classes that are made for swords.

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And if you wanna talk opportunity cost, I have one for you: Remember all the hype Wyvern Lord gets? The limited amount of good flying battalions means that I'm practically forced to limit myself in terms of how many flying units I use, lest opportunity cost bite me in the ass, considering the low-end flying battalions don't hold a candle to the paralogue battalions.

I never said that making everyone a Wyvern Lord is a good strategy, nor did I say that it's the only viable endgame class. So I don't know where you're getting this idea that you're gonna run out of flying battalions. On average, only 3, maybe 4, of your units want to be in a flying class. Bow units benefit more from Sniper or Bow Knight, mages obviously want a magic class, fast male units like Felix and Yuri want Grappler or War Master, etc. There should be plenty of battalions to go around unless you're skimping out on paralogues for some reason.

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Why do you assume I was talking about Swift Strikes? Because I wasn't. What I WAS getting at, however, was your mention of the crit boost War Master gets, as well as your mention of Yuri's Crest.

Well seeing as CAs like Swift Strikes and Vengeance were the only things I really "hyped" in that post, I didn't think you were hung up on something as minor as Yuri's crest, which if you go back and read,

On 12/24/2020 at 11:53 AM, RainbowMoon said:

Yuri even gets the added bonus of his crest doing the same thing as Windsweep on regular attacks that can (and will) double.

I simply describe as an added bonus, not a make-or-break selling point.

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I find them bad enough to potentially avoid dealing with altogether in Crimson Flower, where you don't get halved damage from monsters or crit negation.

Then all I can say is that this is your own fault. This isn't the game not providing you with the resources, this is you willingly passing up the resources the game offers. If Titanus are too hard for you, then you're just gonna have to live with your decision not to fight them. But you can't present that as a shortcoming of the game when it's entirely your choice.

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And even if I wasn't dissuaded from fighting them, the Agarthium would likely be better used to repair the Scythe of Sariel.

Okay. Can't begin to fathom why, but okay.

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also of note, Edelgard has a weakness in bows, meaning she's gonna have a hard time getting Hit +20.

Getting her to C in bows is practically zero effort, bane or no bane. I had to do the same thing with axes to get Death Blow on Bernadetta, she passed the Brigand cert on a 67% and mastered the class before the end of Ch.5.

And if you go back and read Dark Holy Elf's post, you'll see that Hit +20 isn't even necessary if you find it too cumbersome to get. There's plenty of alternatives that give you reliable hit with Aymr.

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

In fact a Swordmaster (Crit +10) with the Wo Dao (30 Crit) has the same Crit value as a War Master (Crit +20) with the Killer Knuckles (20 Crit) - both have 40, before accounting for stats and prowess. And of course, the Knuckles have the Brave effect, so there's a much higher chance of at least one crit. Even if the War Master is using the Wo Dao (30 + 20 = 50), that's a lower chance of one crit.

But let's go to extremes, and compare the Cursed Ashiya Sword+ (50 Crit) and the Killer Knuckles+ (30 Crit) on the highest-crit class, War Master (Crit +20). With the Sword, each hit has 70 crit rate (again, before accounting for outside factors, and assuming perfect accuracy) - so in 2 hits, there's a 49% chance of two crits, 42% of 1 crit, and 9% of no crits. With the Knuckles, each hit has 50 crit - so in 4 hits, there's a 6.25% chance of 4 crits, 25% of 3 crits, 37.5% of 2 crits, 25% of 1 crit, and 6.25% of 0 crits.

So while the Knuckles have a lower Crit rate, because they are brave, they have a higher chance of delivering a crit. Notably, the cursed Ashiya Sword+ has a 70% chance of critting before a possible counter-attack, while the Killer Knuckles+ have a 75% chance. The Knuckles have a lower Mt, yes, but War Master's Fistfaire partially makes up for this. Say a foe can be one-shot with a Cursed Ashiya Sword crit, or with a Killer Knuckles crit-and-hit. In this case, the War Master has a better shot of killing-before-counter with the Killer Knuckles. And what about hit rates? Well, the Knuckles have 80 hit, so they're better here too than the Ashiya Sword, with 70.

Are the Wo Dao and/or Cursed Ashiya Sword better bets on enemy phase? Yes, but with how brave mechanics work in 3H, Gauntlets (and other brave weapons) just aren't good on enemy phase. I was referring to their player-phase performance - in which case, your best bet at scoring a crit is through the Killer Knuckles+.

I don't know about you, but I generally find it hard to justify using a weapon with low might + high crit when alternatives that have high crit and decent to high might are usable as well, as it only means I'm setting myself up for disappointment.

17 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Counterattack is indeed a thing that exists, but obviously the vast majority of enemies don't have it. But even against those, various other options exist. I just don't think it's worth it to dedicate an incredible amount of Byleth's training just to get this combat art, when there are so many other ways that take less investment of dealing with boss counterattacks:

-most of them need a critical hit to kill you on a counter (at least your best units), and on all routes except CF, there are critical-nulling accessories available.

-on CF, you get a unique character who all but joins with Windsweep, so you should just use his version of it instead of building Byleth for it.

-the Blessing gambit allows you to survive crits/fatal counters. Guard adjutants allow you to survive doubles, if those are an issue. You can have a unit with 2 HP and 0 speed survive a counter from a boss with any attack, speed, and crit if they have both.

-many bosses can be reduced to 0 hit (or close) on the player phase by high-evade characters because of linked attack bonuses

-many of the bosses in question can be killed in one attack, via brave weapon, brave combat art, Vengeance, Luna, Knightkneeler (against you-know-who), etc.

-Charges of gambits are limited, but enemies with Counterattack are even more limited. Only in two battles do you face more than one (Chapter 17 CF and Chapter 17 VW). The bigger concern is that a couple of the prominent human ones do have very high Charm and the Commander skill, so they are hard to hit directly and don't take much damage... but you don't need to do much to finish them with something from the above list.

Well, it's true most enemies don't have it, but considering all the final bosses DO, I consider it worth noting regardless.

Anyway, as to that stuff you mentioned, it's not reasonable to assume I'll be using some of the stuff you mentioned, like Luna, which only has 2 users, one of whom is locked to one route and probably won't be going the magic route; you might as well be telling me to use Lysithea. Or Vengeance, which requires setup to be effective, in addition to only having one reasonable user, as I don't count Cyril (I generally find it hard to be impressed by growth units with low bases, and even his combat arts aren't enough to justify using him imho), and Dedue has his fair share of issues even aside from being route locked. The critical nulling accessories are both gated behind post-timeskip paralogues that require recruiting, as they involve students from different houses, and one of THOSE requires going out of your way to do the hardest recruitment in the game (at least if you're not leading the Black Eagles, in which case this point is moot, though in that case there is the possibility of going to the route which leaves them unobtainable). Only seven classes can be guard adjutants, and two of those are route-locked (there's also the fact that you're forced to field the character who can access both of those classes, so this point is moot anyway), and another two are male-exclusive... In a game where most males not named Byleth, Dimitri or Claude are not exactly worthy of my time. Bah.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[------]

49 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

you might as well be telling me to use Lysithea.

What's so wrong with that? She's the best mage in the game.

51 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

most males not named Byleth, Dimitri or Claude are not exactly worthy of my time. Bah.

So Sylvain, Felix, Linhardt, Yuri and Jeritza don't exist then?

[GarEEE]

In my opinion the biggest advantage of gauntlets still is their absurd damage output while also requiring low maintenance.

When fighting monsters, they often have really good chances to ORKO thanks to a brave effect, enough speed to quadruple hit considerably earlier than other brave weapons and still have the option to get additional crit with Killer Gauntlets on top of that.

On top of that, gauntlet users can pretty much always ORKO mages without counterattack from midgame onwards, which is a reliable use case, too.

I made a short montage of just what gauntlets are actually able to ORKO, the actual chances to ORKO were:

ch4 boss: 84.90%

paralogue demon beast boss: 32.62%

ch20 demon beast: 97.28%

AM ch22 boss: 96.99%

Spoiler

 

And this is even without statboosters or death blow

 

2 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Then all I can say is that this is your own fault. This isn't the game not providing you with the resources, this is you willingly passing up the resources the game offers. If Titanus are too hard for you, then you're just gonna have to live with your decision not to fight them. But you can't present that as a shortcoming of the game when it's entirely your choice.

I don't agree with this. While technically you're right, the game does offer the ressources, it comes in a very inconvenient form. The Titanus have a decent crit chance and are not really something you could call "free loot". Unnecessarily messing with them early in the map could cost you too many divine pulses, that you might need later, unnecessarily messing with them late in the map probably increases your turn count and is pretty much just grinding (though in a more efficient way than aux battles for example)

26 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but I generally find it hard to justify using a weapon with low might + high crit when alternatives that have high crit and decent to high might are usable as well, as it only means I'm setting myself up for disappointment.

Unless you're talking about Swift Strike, Point-Blank-Volley or Hunters Volley with killer weapons against fast enemies, gauntlets still have the brave effect ahead of other weapon types. With more hits crits are also more reliable and average out better. As even with low might gauntlets 1 crit + 1 hit is still enough to kill almost all units, except for monsters.

2x 60% crit are about as reliable as 1x 84% crit

 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Only seven classes can be guard adjutants, and two of those are route-locked (there's also the fact that you're forced to field the character who can access both of those classes, so this point is moot anyway), and another two are male-exclusive...

C/D+ axes and D armor is really not that high of a requirement, you can literally just pick any 3 characters that you want to use as guard adjutants in the run, set their goals to axes and armor and never instruct them ever and they'll still do their job just fine

[------]

1 hour ago, GarEEE said:

I don't agree with this. While technically you're right, the game does offer the ressources, it comes in a very inconvenient form. The Titanus have a decent crit chance and are not really something you could call "free loot". Unnecessarily messing with them early in the map could cost you too many divine pulses, that you might need later, unnecessarily messing with them late in the map probably increases your turn count and is pretty much just grinding (though in a more efficient way than aux battles for example)

Y'know, that's a fair enough take. However, I think it still makes sense that to get more uses out of Aymr, you need to defeat a challenging enemy. The game shouldn't just give away Agarthium for free. But Raging Storm's such an incredibly useful CA, that it's worth the trouble of getting more Agarthium. My point to Shadow Mir was that he can't rag on Raging Storm's limited uses if he's not willing to put the work in to get more.

Edited January 14, 2021 by RainbowMoon
Dark Merchant doesn't sell Agarthium.

[LoneRecon400]

You could just break the Titanus shields from something like a curved shot from a Blessed Bow and just follow up with other attacks like Monster Piecer, Sublime Heaven, or just attack with the weapon they're weak to.

Even if they look threatening at a glance, breaking a monster's shield is never a big issue with how easy they are to trivialize.

Edited January 14, 2021 by LoneRecon400

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but I generally find it hard to justify using a weapon with low might + high crit when alternatives that have high crit and decent to high might are usable as well, as it only means I'm setting myself up for disappointment.

Okay, let's do a little more math. Let's say we're using a War Master, since that class has the highest crit rate. Killer Knuckles have 3 Mt - ah, but with Fistfaire, that bumps up to 8. Cursed Ashiya Sword has 14 Mt. But that's not all! Let's assume our War Master is rocking Death Blow, for an effective +6 to Mt. And, let's suppose they're getting a modest boost to physical attack from their batallion - say, another +5. Combined, these boosts are +11, so that the Killer Knuckles have an effective Mt of 19, while for the Cursed Ashiya Sword, it's 25. Of course, this is before accounting for Strength, and enemy Protection.

Let's suppose it's an uphill battle - my War Master has 30 Strength, and the target has 40 Protection, for a 10-point deficit. Let's also bring back the Crit rates from before. With Killer Knuckles, my War Master does 9 damage per hit, with 50 crit. Alternatively, with the Cursed Ashiya Sword, he can do 15 damage, with 70 crit. Let's suppose we don't double the target. So, how much damage will actually be dealt?

With the Killer Knuckles, the average damage per hit is (9 + 9 * 2 * 0.50), or 18. Of course, they double, so the average damage per phase will be 36. As for the Cursed Ashiya Sword, the average damage per hit is (15 + 15 * 2 * 0.70), or 36.  So in this situation, they tie. Increases to the users Strength, or decreases to the target's Protection, will make the Brave weapon more effective. Conversely, a lower Strength stat, and a higher Protection on the enemy, and the Cursed Ashiya Sword becomes preferable.

My point is, it's not enough to just compare the Might and Crit rates between two weapons, and declare one the victor. The fact that Killer Knuckles (like Gauntlets in general) are brave, is tied inexorably to their performance in battle. When you hit twice, the offensive boosts from skills and batallions are, essentially, doubled. If my War Master had Strength +2 equipped, then Killer Knuckles would deal higher expected damage. Not to mention, the Killer Knuckles are lighter (easier to hit the doubling threshold) and more accurate (easier to hit, period). And they don't drain the user's HP with every use, unlike the Cursed Ashiya Sword.

45 minutes ago, GarEEE said:

don't agree with this. While technically you're right, the game does offer the ressources, it comes in a very inconvenient form. The Titanus have a decent crit chance and are not really something you could call "free loot". Unnecessarily messing with them early in the map could cost you too many divine pulses, that you might need later, unnecessarily messing with them late in the map probably increases your turn count and is pretty much just grinding (though in a more efficient way than aux battles for example)

Just hit them with a gambit that shatters one shield, and cracks the remaining three. Then, hit each cracked shield to shatter it. Once the shield is fully down, go to town on it. It's entirely possible to kill the Titanus without risking a single counter-attack.

34 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Y'know, that's a fair enough take. However, I think it still makes sense that to get more uses out of Aymr, you need to defeat a challenging enemy. The game shouldn't just give away Agarthium for free. Even at the Dark Merchant, the stuff's expensive. But Raging Storm's such an incredibly useful CA, that it's worth the trouble of getting more Agarthium. My point to Shadow Mir was that he can't rag on Raging Storm's limited uses if he's not willing to put the work in to get more.

This might just be poor wording, but the Dark Merchant doesn't sell Agarthium. He sells Arcane Crystals. Notably, the only non-random source of Arcane Crystals in the game.

[------]

38 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This might just be poor wording, but the Dark Merchant doesn't sell Agarthium. He sells Arcane Crystals. Notably, the only non-random source of Arcane Crystals in the game.

Ah, you're right, that was my mistake. For some reason I thought he randomly sold Agarthium sometimes. Nowhere online seems to mention him selling it at all though, so I'm probably just remembering wrong.

Edited January 14, 2021 by RainbowMoon

[Dark Holy Elf]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyway, as to that stuff you mentioned, it's not reasonable to assume I'll be using some of the stuff you mentioned

I think it's more reasonable to assume you'll be using at least one thing from the list I posted than building Byleth's swords to A, but that's just me.

I don't really understand your point about guard adjutants, specifically the part where you complained about their quality. The quality of a unit has no effect on how good they are at being an adjutant. Raphael and Caspar aren't the best units, but they become guard adjutants super-easily... and as @GarEEE pointed out, so can anyone else if you set their goals ahead of time. Guard adjutants are a great choice for non-flying Vengeance users (to reach Vengeance's max power safely) and any combat-heavy mages (because all except Dark Filer are grounded, and are often doubled due to heavy spells).

[Anathaco]

On 1/14/2021 at 2:34 PM, Shadow Mir said:

And even if I wasn't dissuaded from fighting them, the Agarthium would likely be better used to repair the Scythe of Sariel.

The Scythe of Sariel is basically just a Killer Lance+ but more accurate. With how easy it is to get to 100 hit in this game it has few advantages over other lances. So it may as well just be a killer lance. Not that I consider that a bad thing, but with how averse you are to relying on crit, I’m surprised you’d ever use a rare resource on repairing it.

15 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Only seven classes can be guard adjutants, and two of those are route-locked (there's also the fact that you're forced to field the character who can access both of those classes, so this point is moot anyway), and another two are male-exclusive... In a game where most males not named Byleth, Dimitri or Claude are not exactly worthy of my time. Bah.

As already pointed out, the males you’d make guard adjutants don’t even have to be worth your time- you literally just have to have them in your house, which is a requirement each house can fulfil at least one of- Raphael, Caspar, and Ashe are units you may want to relegate to guard adjutant duty. Alois joins with the brawling rank to certify for brawler immediately if you don’t plan on using him (since you dislike brawling overall I figured you might not), and Cyril can be trained up to armour knight or brawler from chapter 5 (since you’ve already said you don’t like him as a unit). That’s three possible guard adjutants, completely free of charge since the units in question wouldn’t see combat utility, and are completely free recruits as long as you actually explore. As for the class diversity it really doesn’t matter, since it’s not like they’re doing anything outside of being adjutants. Just the two intermediate classes of brawler and armoured knight are enough.