I'm not a massive fan of Avatars, but I still really want one in a Genealogy of the Holy War remake

[Jotari]

So this is something I brought up in (I think?) the unpopular opinions thread recently. I wouldn't put myself in the no Avatars crowd, but I can't say I'm particularly enamored by the idea either (hell I have a hard time even thinking of these characters as avatars with their default appearance being used so much in ancillary titles and Byleth not even having customizable appearance). But for a Genealogy remake I'm outright hoping. One word ugenics.

I don't want an avatar that dominates the plot or steals Sigurd/Seliph's spotlight. But I would love if in the character creation you could choose to give them minor holy blood from any of the crusaders (minor, not major though). Just so I can breed combinations to give major Fala and Neir blood etc. The character could be a noble bastard of a cadet family to avoid stepping on any established family trees.

Not sure how the barbecue would go down. I'd probably prefer killing the avatar and moving on to a Morgan scenario for the second gen (either with a near identical appearance or the option to customize a second appearance for your child). Having them pull a Finn wouldnt be the worst thing in the world (though obvious more broken units available to the player would need to have a knock on effect on the gameplay).

Anyway that's something I want for gameplay fun. We talked a bit in the previous referenced thread but I thought a dedicated one might be warranted too (so everyone can tell me how wrong I am for wanting another avatar in a remake even though Kris wasn't all that bad). Putting this on general Fire Emblem over the Genealogy section as this isn't quite a NES and SNES topic but more of a hypothetical future game area.

Edited Wednesday at 08:23 AM by Jotari

[AnonymousSpeed]

tl:dr "Avatars are dumb but I like eugenics, please allow me to pick a character's blood type so I can get Major Neir Holy Blood using Follow Up Critical Coefficient"

It's a good idea, on paper. The real problems arise when we talk about sex.

Presumably, the avatar can be either gender and we also presume they have children tied to them whether they are male or female. What if the male avatar marries Ayra? Does she pop out four kids? Is there only one child tied to the avatar unit? These are the important concerns we must be concerned about when implementing such an idea.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Edited December 25, 2020 by AnonymousSpeed

[OutcastsofRelix]

I'd like a Kana/Morgan kind of thing for Second Gen being able to customize the child of the avatar kind of ruins their purpose/character.

[𝙵ᴇɴʀᴇɪʀ]

how about we leave good old Genealogy as it is, and we keep this avatar thingy only for future entries in the franchise, yes?

there's already enough characters and alternatives from both 1st and 2nd generation, an avatar isn't really needed when you already have Oifaye as a tactician from the get go, plus an already complex family tree between houses that doesn't really leave much space for eventually new characters.

Echoes did introduce new characters that were not present in the original Gaiden, but they were assimilated into the story because they've been built around previously existing characters.

in my opinion, an avatar would be out of place in case of Genealogy, because it's a feature that just doesn't fit with the game's narrative.

[ping]

I can already see the intro before my eyes.

Quote

Only a handful of soldiers remained in Grandbell. Among them. . . that person which only few know of.
Owing to a diplomatic alliance with Agustria to the west, and the Verdane Kingdom to the southwest, fear of any kind of aggression was virtually nonexistent.

However, that trust was betrayed all too soon.
Verdane Kingdom’s massive army, spearheaded by Prince Gandolf, crossed into Grandbell territory unnoticed and laid siege to Jungby Castle.
Adean, daughter of Lord Ring, had sole responsibility for the castle.
Entrusted with the protection of the kingdom by his father, Lord Vylon, Sigurd stayed behind at Chalphy Castle, alongside that person.
With only a few soldiers at his disposal, he was rightfully terrified when news of the invasion reached Chalphy. But then he remembered - that person was there to deflect all danger.

Sigurd cried, ‘Those barbarians aren’t laying a hand on Adean! Not while I have my best friend's invaluable support!’
Having known Adean since childhood (almost as long as he knew that person), he was left with no other alternative.
After consulting with that person, Sigurd promptly made the decision to take up arms.
Gran calender – 757
It was this very turn of events that cracked open the door of fate.
Not even that person could have recognised this forewarning to the disastrous events to follow.

 

[Axie]

genealogy is already fanservice central as it is and people only don't call it like it is because it's an old game (tears?), might as well add an avatar (plus one kid and replacement)

i don't see why one of the 1st gen women can't have three kids if she marries the male avatar. also the nature of this game ensures we can't have the avatar marrying a child since the avatar would (or should) be 1st gen only

[Baldrick]

No avatars as playable. The implementation of them has consistently negatively affected the gameplay balance, the characters and the plot, in order to flatter the player and make them a powerful, beloved, noble saint.

In particular, the emotional impact of the Belhalla Massacre would almost certainly be undermined by the inclusion of the avatar. Awakening turned their bittersweet “sacrifice yourself to kill the bad guy permanently” into “kill the bad guy permanently with no downside because random bullshit”, because nothing bad is allowed to happen to the character who represents the player.

But then again, FE4 has fanservice in it. So I guess I’m just a hypocritical elitist who hates Awakening because it is new.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Baldrick

[King Marth 64]

I am pretty skepthical to think that we could not see an Avatar added for Genenealogy of the Holy War Remake like in Echoes: Shadows of Valentia. Plus, it has a midequel "Thracia 776" that would be difficult to have the Avatar in around with all three protagonists since Seliph doesn't meet Leif till Chapter 7. I do like to see some more new characters that have some Major or Minor (presumbably for Gen 1) Holy Blood that didn't get from Sigurd's army nor Seliph's army since Leif had Saias who has Major Fjalar.

[kyos]

I think FE4 is fine as it is without an avatar unit.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, 𝙵ᴇɴʀᴇɪʀ said:

how about we leave good old Genealogy as it is, and we keep this avatar thingy only for future entries in the franchise, yes?

there's already enough characters and alternatives from both 1st and 2nd generation, an avatar isn't really needed when you already have Oifaye as a tactician from the get go, plus an already complex family tree between houses that doesn't really leave much space for eventually new characters.

Echoes did introduce new characters that were not present in the original Gaiden, but they were assimilated into the story because they've been built around previously existing characters.

in my opinion, an avatar would be out of place in case of Genealogy, because it's a feature that just doesn't fit with the game's narrative.

Well as I said previously they can be a random bastard to avoid family tree infringing, like that one boss with a generic mug in Chapter 9 that has Sety Blood. And while we're talking about Echoes that is the game that outright retconned characters into the family tree (mostly Berkut, I guess at a stretch you might say Conrad was based around previously existing characters as Gaiden did say Desaix killed other children Celica's father had).

[OutcastsofRelix]

Or maybe instead of an Avatar make it an entirely new character who plays a central part to the story.

[joevar]

no, please dont. im sure the story must be changed a bit to accommodate such addition, and people like me who's didnt play the OG FE4 will have mixed feeling then, when completing it. if children power inheritance is the reason for avatar necessity again, make it a new game, not remake.

[𝙵ᴇɴʀᴇɪʀ]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

And while we're talking about Echoes that is the game that outright retconned characters into the family tree (mostly Berkut, I guess at a stretch you might say Conrad was based around previously existing characters as Gaiden did say Desaix killed other children Celica's father had).

one thing is adding new characters in a remake of a NES game with limited features and a small cast of usable units by assimilating them into the story by building relations around previously existing characters(Rudolf, for example), wich can in turn expand an originally barebone plot way further.

another is adding a new feature(because in the end, that's really all it is) to a SNES game with an already large cast of usable units, an overall way more expanded and complex story, and more features to offer that already have their own sinergy between themself.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well as I said previously they can be a random bastard to avoid family tree infringing, like that one boss with a generic mug in Chapter 9 that has Sety Blood.

i'd rather prefer to see some characters from Thracia 776 making an appearence, rather than having an avatar unit. but even that wouldn't be necessary.

 

we all know that the main point of having an avatar in a game like Genealogy would be just to spoil players and allow them to create broken units with some waifus/husbandos, because let's be honest: narrative-wise it's not needed at all, since the game's backstory is already fine as it is.

we have all seen what happened with previous games that had the avatar feature: it ended up giving them too much importance, to the point of turning the avatar into a saint beloved by all. while having that kind of concept  in every new title released may look nice for someone, for others it's getting quite repetitive and obsolete, to the point it's actually becoming pretty dumb.

why having lords at all then, when you can just slap an avatar in game, make everything turn around it and call it a day, right?

god forbid creativity, originality and uniqueness.

Edited December 26, 2020 by 𝙵ᴇɴʀᴇɪʀ

[Pengaius]

Personally I'd love to see an avatar that takes the few nuances of Sigurd' character and tramples them into the mire, leaving Sigurd as just boring naïve Lord who Deirdre falls in love with. It would also be great if they replaced Seliph as the protagonist if gen 2 as well. We could even bring in a singular 3rd Gen character so that you can S Support 2nd gen characters as well. Maybe this avatar can S-Support 2 times once in gen1 and once in gen2 we can have them lose their memory so that complications for characters that survived Belhalla or parental relationships aren't in the way! 

The whole 2nd gen eugenics for extra holy weapons wouldn't even matter though, as you'd still only be able to get Valflame/Helswath/Mjollnir/Gungnir for the final map. 

Anyway, systems shouldn't be added that further discourage use of the base cast which the 2nd gen units are substitutes for, because lets face it the replacements are already busted enough we don't need to make the easiest game (imo) even easier. 

 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, 𝙵ᴇɴʀᴇɪʀ said:

one thing is adding new characters in a remake of a NES game with limited features and a small cast of usable units by assimilating them into the story by building relations around previously existing characters(Rudolf, for example), wich can in turn expand an originally barebone plot way further.

another is adding a new feature(because in the end, that's really all it is) to a SNES game with an already large cast of usable units, an overall way more expanded and complex story, and more features to offer that already have their own sinergy between themself.

 

Well they did end up doing that with the first game in the series. Not sure if their reluctance to do it in Shadows of Valentia was out of taking loyalty to the original too far (which they did in some cases, *cough* repeated maps *cought* dread fighter loop) or because it's sort of weird given there's two routes in the game.

[Maof06]

I'm fine with it as long as the avatar dies at Belhalla . However, I don't think they need to add another child unit in the game. It's okay just being a parent to the already existing characters.

[Samz707]

Plot-twist, they add an avatar but it turns out you're actually infertile and can't have kids when you try to S-rank someone.

[Jotari]

39 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

I'm fine with it as long as the avatar dies at Belhalla . However, I don't think they need to add another child unit in the game. It's okay just being a parent to the already existing characters.

What if you make your avatar female then? No avatar kids at all in that case. Unless they follow Genealogy rules and the female avatar gets kids and the male one doesn't.

[Maof06]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

What if you make your avatar female then? No avatar kids at all in that case. Unless they follow Genealogy rules and the female avatar gets kids and the male one doesn't.

No female avatar. Now you got me. Perhaps the game could let you create another avatar for gen 2 then?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Personally, I don't think this is a good idea, for reasons others have already stated. But I do think it's a fun idea. So, how would I go about it?

- Highly aesthetically customizable. Think Awakening levels - multiple builds, hairstyles, and hair colors. Maybe voices, but with full voice acting, that may be impractical. 

- Choose one Minor Holy Blood type (of the 13). Or, none at all. This affects their growths (which are, otherwise, fixed).

- Choose two skills. These can be anything that aren't game-breaking.

- There is an option to randomly generate your Avatar, based on the customizations available. 

- Their starting class, Tactician, is infantry with 6 move, and C in all weapon types (before applying Holy Blood). Generally balanced bases and growths, only impacted by choice of Holy Blood.

- At level 20, they can promote into Grandmaster, jumping up to 7 move and B in all weapon types.

- They join at level 1, from Turn 1 of the Prologue, with a "Steel" Weapon, "El" Tome, Lightning, Jormungandr, or Mend, based on their choice of Holy Blood. If no Holy Blood is chosen, they join with no weapon, but the "Charisma Band" instead.

- They die at Belhalla. If paired up, they have a single child of the opposite gender, whose name can be decided in a lover conversation. If Avatar is female, her son inherits her inventory, while the father's inventory is treated as though he died. If Avatar is male, the mother's canon son (or Patty) no longer inherits from their father - the Avatar's new daughter supercedes them in inheriting inventory.

- Avatar cannot interfere with canon couples (Sigurd/Dierdre, Quan/Ethlyn).

- If Avatar is not paired up, they will have no child. Instead, you will get a randomly-generated substitute Avatar-child. This one gets a weapon the same way as the original Avatar. Either way, the Avatar-child is playable from the start of chapter 6, as a level 1 Tactician.

[AnonymousSpeed]

11 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

- They die at Belhalla. If paired up, they have a single child of the opposite gender, whose name can be decided in a lover conversation.

This idea is actually really good.

I'm going to pocket this.

Edited December 27, 2020 by AnonymousSpeed

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd say, not a fan of the idea; would rather not be implemented. Considering it'd be adding it to an already existing system, the changes to accommodate them would be more trouble than its worth, I think. So far we've had the Avatar added to one remake and skipped out on the other. It's for the most part a thing for actual new games. Whether or not that trend will uphold remains to be seen. As it is, though... better not in my opinion.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[L3xandr3]

While I do like the idea, I know IS will most assuredly butcher it. Last time they rammed an Avatar into a remake, we got Kris...

 

If it's a good Avatar, then I'd like it. Good as in

A) not a silent protag. Either thay are their own character that we can change a little bit of*, or they give us meaningful dialog options.

Or B) a minor character like Alec, Lex, or the like. Someone who's not terribly important, but is still there.

 

*As much as I dislike it, Corrin was the closest FE has come to what I'd call a good Avatar: They're their own person who is minorly changed by the player.

[Florete]

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

- They die at Belhalla. If paired up, they have a single child of the opposite gender, whose name can be decided in a lover conversation. If Avatar is female, her son inherits her inventory, while the father's inventory is treated as though he died. If Avatar is male, the mother's canon son (or Patty) no longer inherits from their father - the Avatar's new daughter supercedes them in inheriting inventory.

If you get to decide their name, why can't you decide their gender? And why does it always end up being opposite gender, anyway? Especially in this case considering the child is more-or-less going to become the new avatar character, and most people will probably want to continue playing as their preferred chosen gender.

[Metal Flash]

After some internal debating, I like the idea for how much fun it can bring in terms of gameplay. However, I highly doubt that IS wouldn`t mess with the story to highlight the player character somehow. I also can`t see them killing the avatar of in the first gen. Would be cool, but unlikely in my opinion.

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

- Highly aesthetically customizable. Think Awakening levels - multiple builds, hairstyles, and hair colors. Maybe voices, but with full voice acting, that may be impractical. 

- Choose one Minor Holy Blood type (of the 13). Or, none at all. This affects their growths (which are, otherwise, fixed).

- Choose two skills. These can be anything that aren't game-breaking.

- There is an option to randomly generate your Avatar, based on the customizations available. 

- Their starting class, Tactician, is infantry with 6 move, and C in all weapon types (before applying Holy Blood). Generally balanced bases and growths, only impacted by choice of Holy Blood.

- At level 20, they can promote into Grandmaster, jumping up to 7 move and B in all weapon types.

- They join at level 1, from Turn 1 of the Prologue, with a "Steel" Weapon, "El" Tome, Lightning, Jormungandr, or Mend, based on their choice of Holy Blood. If no Holy Blood is chosen, they join with no weapon, but the "Charisma Band" instead.

- They die at Belhalla. If paired up, they have a single child of the opposite gender, whose name can be decided in a lover conversation. If Avatar is female, her son inherits her inventory, while the father's inventory is treated as though he died. If Avatar is male, the mother's canon son (or Patty) no longer inherits from their father - the Avatar's new daughter supercedes them in inheriting inventory.

- Avatar cannot interfere with canon couples (Sigurd/Dierdre, Quan/Ethlyn).

- If Avatar is not paired up, they will have no child. Instead, you will get a randomly-generated substitute Avatar-child. This one gets a weapon the same way as the original Avatar. Either way, the Avatar-child is playable from the start of chapter 6, as a level 1 Tactician.

If I`m not mistaken, New Mystery had even more customization options than Awakening did.

I love all of these ideas, particularly the last four.