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Frug
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As a fan of Wyvern Elise, I have found myself undeploying staff users a lot in conquest early game in favor of vulneraries.  What are your preferred staff bots going into the mid/late game?

Edited by Frug
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Frankly, I find Elise hard to top as far as staffers go. Of course, part of that is because Wyvern Elise is about as smart an idea as robbing a police station.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Wyvern Elise sounds wild, I like it LOL.

But tbh in Conquest, Elise is probably your best bet since her magic is so high (but it's understandable if you wanna utilize her magic stat for tomes instead). Her skill is really low tho, so landing the debuffing staffs will be kinda hard with her.

If not Elise, Felicia would probably be the best after her.

And outside of Felicia, you can set up the kids to be good staffbots with the right parents. Dwyer and Forrest would be the easy ones since they already start off as Troubadours (I never used them outside of Heirs of Fate, so idk who would be their ideal mothers HAHA). Shigure is worth noting too since he has access to Falcon Knight and can double as a rally/staff bot, but his healing won't be as juicy since his base magic is lower.

Edited by Tenma
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I'm insane enough to use Shura.  He isn't going to revive a berserker from near-death, but he'll patch up what needs to be patched up, and he can do stuff in combat as necessary.

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Wyvern Elise is amazing dont let anyone tell you otherwise. You can capture the B rank shrine maiden in chapter 9 for early staffers if you want one anytime before the second servant comes, or early Dwyer. (Best mom's avatar with specific build but I've tried Jakob 2 x Azura, maybe Jakob 1 could work too. Dwyer is also a good lategame staffer too) Whatever your second servant is will be amazing, either felicia or Jakob can serve as staffing strategists and felicia can just stay as she is. Just stick to the freebies for late game Izana and Flora, haven't really explored staffing as much beyond that.

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On 12/28/2020 at 1:48 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Frankly, I find Elise hard to top as far as staffers go. Of course, part of that is because Wyvern Elise is about as smart an idea as robbing a police station.

You should give it a go.  It makes her bar-none the best pair up for Odin and best mother for Ophelia (ignoring Corrin obv).  She gains access to str +2 after one level (which can be her first level since you only need to heal ~7 times to get enough xp to level up with one round of combat once you are a wyvern.  As a wyvern, her combat and durability are fine, and her Lily's poise utility makes enemy-phasing with any of your even mediocre units viable, and she can afford to eat a hand axe or javelin as a wyvern thanks to the increased bulk where she would get creamed as a troubadour.

Once she promotes, she can fly around and clip things with the bolt axe (which is a massive power spike for her) or just a fire tome, making her have some great utility.  You don't really even a staffer in conquest early game at all (and plenty of people reclass Jakob AND Elise to prove this.

I highly recommend giving it a go.  You will probably be surprised at how effective it is.

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2 hours ago, Frug said:

You should give it a go.  It makes her bar-none the best pair up for Odin and best mother for Ophelia (ignoring Corrin obv).  She gains access to str +2 after one level (which can be her first level since you only need to heal ~7 times to get enough xp to level up with one round of combat once you are a wyvern.  As a wyvern, her combat and durability are fine, and her Lily's poise utility makes enemy-phasing with any of your even mediocre units viable, and she can afford to eat a hand axe or javelin as a wyvern thanks to the increased bulk where she would get creamed as a troubadour.

Once she promotes, she can fly around and clip things with the bolt axe (which is a massive power spike for her) or just a fire tome, making her have some great utility.  You don't really even a staffer in conquest early game at all (and plenty of people reclass Jakob AND Elise to prove this.

I highly recommend giving it a go.  You will probably be surprised at how effective it is.

Except we're talking about the same Elise that has poor skill; just to put things into perspective, she has a mere 3 skill when sealed into Wyvern immediately. I would consider that unacceptable on frigging normal mode, never mind hard or lunatic, as low skill plus axes is just asking for trouble. Also, the Bolt Axe is rather inaccurate, meaning in conjunction with her poor skill, she's liable to have stormtrooper level hit rates. Whoopee. Why the hell should I take this seriously when even Little Mac's recovery is better than this?

It's still better than relying on vulneraries, which are too expensive for how little they heal. 

Ha. The only thing about it that could surprise me is how much it sucks.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Except we're talking about the same Elise that has poor skill; just to put things into perspective, she has a mere 3 skill when sealed into Wyvern immediately. I would consider that unacceptable on frigging normal mode, never mind hard or lunatic, as low skill plus axes is just asking for trouble. Also, the Bolt Axe is rather inaccurate, meaning in conjunction with her poor skill, she's liable to have stormtrooper level hit rates. Whoopee. Why the hell should I take this seriously when even Little Mac's recovery is better than this?

It's still better than relying on vulneraries, which are too expensive for how little they heal. 

Ha. The only thing about it that could surprise me is how much it sucks.

Well in practice Elise gets by just fine until bolt axe with a skill/luck pair up or dual strike.  But she isn’t meant to be a combat god anyways.  Her utility as a wyvern is in flying Lily’s Poise, which is extremely strong early game especially since she can actually take a hit.  Once again, maybe you should just give it a try?  

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1 hour ago, Frug said:

Well in practice Elise gets by just fine until bolt axe with a skill/luck pair up or dual strike.  But she isn’t meant to be a combat god anyways.  Her utility as a wyvern is in flying Lily’s Poise, which is extremely strong early game especially since she can actually take a hit.  Once again, maybe you should just give it a try?  

I mean her personal growth in magic is 65%, so she'd be pretty wild offensively. So if you train up her tome rank beforehand and reclass her into Malig Knight ... lmao camilla who ?? HAHA

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3 hours ago, Frug said:

Well in practice Elise gets by just fine until bolt axe with a skill/luck pair up or dual strike.  But she isn’t meant to be a combat god anyways.  Her utility as a wyvern is in flying Lily’s Poise, which is extremely strong early game especially since she can actually take a hit.  Once again, maybe you should just give it a try?  

You're pretty much saying "use Mozu", as skill and luck are found on very few classes at the same time, with Villager being one of the few classes that boosts both. And I consider that a hard sell, just because it's Mozu. Also, while you say that her utility is in Lily's Poise, she has that without needing to to be reclassed into a shitty combat unit. Even when she gets the rank for the Bolt Axe, its 65 base hit means that she's in an unenviable position, as how hard you hit means jack shit when, you know, you don't hit.

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6 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

You're pretty much saying "use Mozu", as skill and luck are found on very few classes at the same time, with Villager being one of the few classes that boosts both. And I consider that a hard sell, just because it's Mozu. Also, while you say that her utility is in Lily's Poise, she has that without needing to to be reclassed into a shitty combat unit. Even when she gets the rank for the Bolt Axe, its 65 base hit means that she's in an unenviable position, as how hard you hit means jack shit when, you know, you don't hit.

Bruh can you like ... let people have their fun

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

You're pretty much saying "use Mozu", as skill and luck are found on very few classes at the same time, with Villager being one of the few classes that boosts both. And I consider that a hard sell, just because it's Mozu. Also, while you say that her utility is in Lily's Poise, she has that without needing to to be reclassed into a shitty combat unit. Even when she gets the rank for the Bolt Axe, its 65 base hit means that she's in an unenviable position, as how hard you hit means jack shit when, you know, you don't hit.

That's kind of an oversimplification.  I actually said a pair up or dual strike, and I never said you needed both skill and luck bonuses.  Also, Mozu is actually a fine unit since training her isn't a big challenge and the opportunity cost is much less because of how conquest's exp system rewards training lower level units instead of high level ones, but I could see why someone wouldn't want to field her.  I've had plenty of playthroughs with her and even more without.  

The reason the wyvern class makes better use of Lily's poise is twofold: Firstly, Elise gets flight (which is massively helpful especially since there are very few characters that can reclass into a good flying class like Wyvern), but that also makes it easier to position her for Lily's Poise, letting her ignore the forests and occasional waste tiles that murder her horse-movement.  Secondly, the massive boost to defense and sizeable HP buff makes her able to take a hit or two and still live, which is helpful if you want to position her more aggressively to pull multiple enemies at once in attack stance to build up weapon xp for an ally of hers, say Niles' bow rank.  Even when you aren't going aggressive and still just tanking with only one unit using Lily's Poise, there are plenty of enemies with throwing weapons that would nuke her as a troubadour.  These two aspects make wyvern Elise the absolute best at applying Lily's Poise safely and easily, and you can even level her to 10 in troubadour to get Demoiselle, letting her stack -5 dmg on adjacent male allies.

The hit rate problem is so easy to circumvent.  As a Malig, she gets access to fire, which is already pretty damn accurate.  If you have problems further than that, you can use a partner seal to get Heartseeker and suddenly she is as accurate as the best of them.  Once again, though, combat isn't Elise's primary utility.  Her flight, auras, and pair up bonuses are enough to secure her a deployment slot, and the ability to zot things off the face of the map is just icing.

Finally, early-game, vulneraries are absolutely enough healing, especially when you don't reclass Jakob/Felicia.  Average unit hp in this game is very low, especially early-game, so 10 health is more than enough to eat another hit or two, especially since a lot of the conquest early game is tanking with Effie/Silas/Corrin and finishing off the enemy with another unit either from range or from up close but with enough damage to avoid a counter-attack.  You really can just keep vulneraries on Effie, Silas, Corrin, and maybe Arthur or Jakob as your main enemy-baiting characters, and let vulneraries do the bulk of the healing, with Jakob busting out his garbage heal staff when the situation gets dire.

Here is an old thread about the same topic.  I find this topic interesting so I may start a thread about it.

57 minutes ago, Tenma said:

Bruh can you like ... let people have their fun

The best part is they are arguing hypotheticals with no prior experience where I have used Wyvern Elise in a variety of ways and multiple times.  You'd think the natural response would be anything other than arguing about something that you haven't tried yet.

 

Edited by Frug
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1 hour ago, Frug said:

That's kind of an oversimplification.  I actually said a pair up or dual strike, and I never said you needed both skill and luck bonuses.  Also, Mozu is actually a fine unit since training her isn't a big challenge and the opportunity cost is much less because of how conquest's exp system rewards training lower level units instead of high level ones, but I could see why someone wouldn't want to field her.  I've had plenty of playthroughs with her and even more without.  

The issue is, she takes a heart seal to be feasible to train, which is a steep opportunity cost when someone like Camilla could have used that to become better.

1 hour ago, Frug said:

The reason the wyvern class makes better use of Lily's poise is twofold: Firstly, Elise gets flight (which is massively helpful especially since there are very few characters that can reclass into a good flying class like Wyvern), but that also makes it easier to position her for Lily's Poise, letting her ignore the forests and occasional waste tiles that murder her horse-movement.  Secondly, the massive boost to defense and sizeable HP buff makes her able to take a hit or two and still live, which is helpful if you want to position her more aggressively to pull multiple enemies at once in attack stance to build up weapon xp for an ally of hers, say Niles' bow rank.  Even when you aren't going aggressive and still just tanking with only one unit using Lily's Poise, there are plenty of enemies with throwing weapons that would nuke her as a troubadour.  These two aspects make wyvern Elise the absolute best at applying Lily's Poise safely and easily, and you can even level her to 10 in troubadour to get Demoiselle, letting her stack -5 dmg on adjacent male allies.

Seven (which I counted is the number of characters with wyvern in their class set) is not "very few", last I checked (admittedly, this does include Camilla, Beruka, and Percy, who start in the wyvern line) - and this is ignoring partner/friendship seal shenanigans. Of course, whether there's a reason to do so is another matter entirely. Also, I don't find Demoiselle so useful, as frankly, most men not named Corrin or Xander aren't worth fielding.

1 hour ago, Frug said:

The hit rate problem is so easy to circumvent.  As a Malig, she gets access to fire, which is already pretty damn accurate.  If you have problems further than that, you can use a partner seal to get Heartseeker and suddenly she is as accurate as the best of them.  Once again, though, combat isn't Elise's primary utility.  Her flight, auras, and pair up bonuses are enough to secure her a deployment slot, and the ability to zot things off the face of the map is just icing.

Issue is, unless you level her up as a troubadour and reclass her after promotion, you're stuck having to go through the sucktastic wyvern rider phase. Also, her getting Heartseeker is dependent on her marrying Odin, which, needless to say, won't always happen. Speaking of, you said this makes her the best pair up for Odin, to which I ask, why would I be using Odin in the first place, aside from using him long enough for him to marry so I could use his daughter instead? Especially since if Elise is in back as his pair up partner, she's not supporting my other units with Lily's Poise.

1 hour ago, Frug said:

Finally, early-game, vulneraries are absolutely enough healing, especially when you don't reclass Jakob/Felicia.  Average unit hp in this game is very low, especially early-game, so 10 health is more than enough to eat another hit or two, especially since a lot of the conquest early game is tanking with Effie/Silas/Corrin and finishing off the enemy with another unit either from range or from up close but with enough damage to avoid a counter-attack.  You really can just keep vulneraries on Effie, Silas, Corrin, and maybe Arthur or Jakob as your main enemy-baiting characters, and let vulneraries do the bulk of the healing, with Jakob busting out his garbage heal staff when the situation gets dire.

Doesn't change the fact that it's a shitty economic decision, as vulneraries, use for use, are far, far more expensive than a heal staff (100 gold per use vs 25). Also, the Jakob mention assumes I'm playing as a female Corrin, which ain't happenin'. That said, I'm okay with having vulneraries as backups, but not with relying mainly on them - this isn't Radiant Dawn, where you could feasibly do that.

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On 12/30/2020 at 1:53 AM, Shadow Mir said:

The issue is, she takes a heart seal to be feasible to train, which is a steep opportunity cost when someone like Camilla could have used that to become better.

Seven (which I counted is the number of characters with wyvern in their class set) is not "very few", last I checked (admittedly, this does include Camilla, Beruka, and Percy, who start in the wyvern line) - and this is ignoring partner/friendship seal shenanigans. Of course, whether there's a reason to do so is another matter entirely. Also, I don't find Demoiselle so useful, as frankly, most men not named Corrin or Xander aren't worth fielding.

Issue is, unless you level her up as a troubadour and reclass her after promotion, you're stuck having to go through the sucktastic wyvern rider phase. Also, her getting Heartseeker is dependent on her marrying Odin, which, needless to say, won't always happen. Speaking of, you said this makes her the best pair up for Odin, to which I ask, why would I be using Odin in the first place, aside from using him long enough for him to marry so I could use his daughter instead? Especially since if Elise is in back as his pair up partner, she's not supporting my other units with Lily's Poise.

Doesn't change the fact that it's a shitty economic decision, as vulneraries, use for use, are far, far more expensive than a heal staff (100 gold per use vs 25). Also, the Jakob mention assumes I'm playing as a female Corrin, which ain't happenin'. That said, I'm okay with having vulneraries as backups, but not with relying mainly on them - this isn't Radiant Dawn, where you could feasibly do that.

Speaking as someone who was initially hesitant on using Wyvern Elise, you are underselling her. Granted, I am basing this on my current hard, casual mode playthrough of the game, so I may not be 100% accurate on how this stuff works on Lunatic.

- Elise's Wyvern phase is actually where she performs best from my experience. Since its the early-game, her Strength and Speed are easily patched up via Tonics and forges and her decent speed lets her survive some encounters on enemy phase. Vulneraries are also OP in Conquest early-game cuz they heal a bigger portion of your health. Forged Bronze Axe also mostly fixes her hit-rate. Lily's Poise is also better in the early game since the damage and bulk boost is more notable. Currently, my Malig Elise's performance has dropped off drastically despite having access to Bolt Axe and Tomes since her speed isn't good enough to double and her bulk is trash, but this may be a byproduct of me early-promoting her. Camilla is definitely much better as a Malig Knight imo.

- I don't think Heart Seal Camilla is really necessary. Even as a Malig Knight, she's still one of the best units in the game and Magic is still pretty great on her since its reliable 1-2 range that can double and can let her use some cool spells like Horse Spirit. Malig Knight's additional Res is also nice. 

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1 hour ago, FoxyGrandpa said:

- Elise's Wyvern phase is actually where she performs best from my experience. Since its the early-game, her Strength and Speed are easily patched up via Tonics and forges and her decent speed lets her survive some encounters on enemy phase. Vulneraries are also OP in Conquest early-game cuz they heal a bigger portion of your health. Forged Bronze Axe also mostly fixes her hit-rate. Lily's Poise is also better in the early game since the damage and bulk boost is more notable. Currently, my Malig Elise's performance has dropped off drastically despite having access to Bolt Axe and Tomes since her speed isn't good enough to double and her bulk is trash, but this may be a byproduct of me early-promoting her. Camilla is definitely much better as a Malig Knight imo.

The forge part is assuming you get a sapphire mine, something I'm not comfortable with assuming. Also, forges don't give extra hit until +2, and the hit boost is miniscule unless you get really high. RE: vulneraries, last I checked, they only heal 10, which is the same as a basic heal staff.  l hard disagree on Camilla being better as a Malig Knight, because her stats just don't support it...

2 hours ago, FoxyGrandpa said:

- I don't think Heart Seal Camilla is really necessary. Even as a Malig Knight, she's still one of the best units in the game and Magic is still pretty great on her since its reliable 1-2 range that can double and can let her use some cool spells like Horse Spirit. Malig Knight's additional Res is also nice. 

Problem is, when a unit has 10 more strength than magic at base like Camilla does, that's telling me with all the subtlety of a bullhorn that magic use doesn't help them much, if at all.

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35 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The forge part is assuming you get a sapphire mine, something I'm not comfortable with assuming. Also, forges don't give extra hit until +2, and the hit boost is miniscule unless you get really high. RE: vulneraries, last I checked, they only heal 10, which is the same as a basic heal staff.  l hard disagree on Camilla being better as a Malig Knight, because her stats just don't support it...

Bro you make it seem as if it's difficult to get ore, when it's literally the easiest thing. Deadass you can go online and go through every single castle that exists to pick up whatever ore you need. That's not even including random MyCastle pick-ups from talking to your units. And since Bronze Axes were mentioned, they're unlimited from the beginning so getting a +2 Bronze isn't hard at all.

And I don't see what's so wrong about vulneraries? If your staffbot already used their turn (and let's say twice if Azura sang for them), you kinda have to use vulneraries for anyone else that needs healing lol

When it comes to Camilla, she's perfectly fine as either a Wyvern Lord or Malig Knight--it all just depends on what you role you want her to play. Wyvern Lord does bolster her stronger stats and makes her a pure physical attacker, but in turn kills her otherwise good resistance stat (which is better than her defense). As a Malig Knight, her stats are much more balanced in sacrifice for lower strength and and speed, but the difference is only -2. She'll do fine either way, it's just keeping her as a Malig Knight saves you a Heart Seal.

@ everyone else, wyvern elise is valid, don't let no one stop you from using her the way you want, you do you boo

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28 minutes ago, Tenma said:

And I don't see what's so wrong about vulneraries? If your staffbot already used their turn (and let's say twice if Azura sang for them), you kinda have to use vulneraries for anyone else that needs healing lol

I'm not saying they're useless - only that I wouldn't rely on them as my main healing method because they're more expensive use-for-use than a heal staff is. FFS, I said something to that effect earlier.

28 minutes ago, Tenma said:

Bro you make it seem as if it's difficult to get ore, when it's literally the easiest thing. Deadass you can go online and go through every single castle that exists to pick up whatever ore you need. That's not even including random MyCastle pick-ups from talking to your units. And since Bronze Axes were mentioned, they're unlimited from the beginning so getting a +2 Bronze isn't hard at all.

That's not it at all - it's that this is much too random to consider legitimate without online, which, needless to say, won't always be an option. Also, a +2 bronze isn't gonna take Elise from "can't hit the broad side of a barn if her life depended on it, which it pretty much does because she needs to go in melee range to attack" to "never missing".

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The forge part is assuming you get a sapphire mine, something I'm not comfortable with assuming. Also, forges don't give extra hit until +2, and the hit boost is miniscule unless you get really high. RE: vulneraries, last I checked, they only heal 10, which is the same as a basic heal staff.  l hard disagree on Camilla being better as a Malig Knight, because her stats just don't support it...

Problem is, when a unit has 10 more strength than magic at base like Camilla does, that's telling me with all the subtlety of a bullhorn that magic use doesn't help them much, if at all.

Can’t you exchange ores at the smithy if you don’t get the mine you need? I say this as someone who hasn’t played Fates in years, but I remember that being an option. And as already pointed out, Malig Knight Camilla is more about the balanced stats, higher res, access to easy 1-2 range and saving a heart seal for something else. She functions very well regardless.

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53 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

Can’t you exchange ores at the smithy if you don’t get the mine you need? I say this as someone who hasn’t played Fates in years, but I remember that being an option. And as already pointed out, Malig Knight Camilla is more about the balanced stats, higher res, access to easy 1-2 range and saving a heart seal for something else. She functions very well regardless.

The higher resistance is grasping for straws, since mages are a crappy matchup for Malig Camilla anyway - either she's facing WTD or they're gonna laugh at her magic. Speaking of, having 1-2 range that can double helps, but it doesn't help much when it uses a stat that is much lower - I'm not impressed by what little parlor tricks Malig Camilla can do with magic when I could have just killed the enemy instead. I'm not saying Camilla is unusable as a Malig Knight, only that the benefits of staying in are virtually nonexistent (or at least not enough to justify doing so). Re: ore, you can trade, but ore can only be gotten once per day (factoring in a day as 4 chapters of playtime; time of day also changes when 6 hours of real time pass).

Edited by Shadow Mir
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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The higher resistance is grasping for straws, since mages are a crappy matchup for Malig Camilla anyway - either she's facing WTD or they're gonna laugh at her magic. Speaking of, having 1-2 range that can double helps, but it doesn't help much when it uses a stat that is much lower - I'm not impressed by what little parlor tricks Malig Camilla can do with magic when I could have just killed the enemy instead. I'm not saying Camilla is unusable as a Malig Knight, only that the benefits of staying in are virtually nonexistent (or at least not enough to justify doing so). Re: ore, you can trade, but ore can only be gotten once per day (factoring in a day as 4 chapters of playtime; time of day also changes when 6 hours of real time pass).

But having tome access still gives her 1-2 range without any restrictions on doubling.   Even though her magic is worse than her strength it’s still serviceable even against mages. Plus the opportunity to have unrestricted 2 range on player phase is still really helpful. As for the ore, I just checked to see if changing the 3DS time can speed that up, and seemingly it cannot. So that’s fair, but it’s still not impossible to get more ore if her hit rates are so bad that she needs a forged axe.

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19 hours ago, Anathaco said:

But having tome access still gives her 1-2 range without any restrictions on doubling.   Even though her magic is worse than her strength it’s still serviceable even against mages. Plus the opportunity to have unrestricted 2 range on player phase is still really helpful. As for the ore, I just checked to see if changing the 3DS time can speed that up, and seemingly it cannot. So that’s fair, but it’s still not impossible to get more ore if her hit rates are so bad that she needs a forged axe.

On paper, yes. In practice, her magic is so much lower compared to her strength that even when doubling, odds are she does less damage than what she would've done with axes (which is not helped by the fact that axes are the strongest weapon type). Not helping is that the stuff tomes would be useful to counter either are stuff that has high resistance or are archers, which are bad news for her (and if you're attacking them up close, you might as well just use axes, as you'll do more damage). On the matter of forges, thanks to the forge system being what it is, it's not like a forged axe will make Elise's hit problems disappear unless you get it to +4, which is asking a lot, in addition to approaching the point where it's just not practical. And that's ignoring the fact that you can only forge up to +2 until after chapter 14.

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Wyvern Elise is actually really fun and having a second flier in the early-game opens up a lot of strategic opportunities

I also think Camilla doesn't gain a huge amount by being reclassed to Wyvern Lord, and certainly not as much as what Elise gains by becoming a flying class

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On 1/2/2021 at 2:01 AM, Agro said:

I also think Camilla doesn't gain a huge amount by being reclassed to Wyvern Lord, and certainly not as much as what Elise gains by becoming a flying class

Why? Because honestly, I think that hybrid classes just don't work, more often than not - and it's thanks to the fact that most units in FE lean toward being pure physical (like Camilla), or pure magical. Ones that can do both well (which is needed to excel as one) are as scarce as hen's teeth. Malig Knight would've been worth considering if it was axe/staff, but axe/tome is something I just cannot get behind.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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When did I mention anything about hybrid classes?

Camilla just gains a few points of speed and lance access by switching classes, which doesn't do much to change her function other than give her some more accuracy in very specific spots. You're still probably going to keep her using axes even as a Wyvern Lord because she's so much more powerful with those than swords.

Edited by Agro
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