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First BL Maddening Run (no NG+) questions


Aethelstan
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I'm on Chapter 3. I'm trying to recruit as many units as possible to get all the relics. I'm doing BL since they seem strong early game. 

 

Aux battles seem to give so little exp. Should I just be doing monastery stuff every week instead? 

I'm planning on recruiting the DLC characters. What's the best chapter to do it?

I'm trying to train everyone physical in axes to reclass to brigand for death blow. Other than that are there any must have skills I should be going for?

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Just going to cover general points as my maddening experience is with VW.

4 minutes ago, Aethelstan said:

Aux battles seem to give so little exp. Should I just be doing monastery stuff every week instead? 

One massive benefit they have is in raising class and weapon exp, which is huge for masteries, but unless you're using more than a few units in combat it's not so important that you should worry about doing them.

That being said, I still do recommend going for monastery more often of the two (i.e. no more than two auxillary weeks and that's in months with 4 weeks free), mostly because raising your professor rank earlier is huge for the long term, especially as you have sauna access.

4 minutes ago, Aethelstan said:

I'm planning on recruiting the DLC characters. What's the best chapter to do it?

If you're not planning on using any of them long term you can wait until you want to do their paralogue and get them then. I recommend it if you don't remotely plan on using them in Part 2 (which I do recommend figuring out because exp is bad enough without training 20+ units for Part 2, I was using 18 by the end of Part 1 and that was with three Chapter 12 recruits, before I benched two of them afterwards and was down to an imo manageable 16.)

5 minutes ago, Aethelstan said:

I'm trying to train everyone physical in axes to reclass to brigand for death blow. Other than that are there any must have skills I should be going for?

If you're using magic Fiendish Blow's stellar, Hit +20 is useful for everything, Vantage + Wrath is nice especially for units with Battalion Wrath and EP builds are your focus, Darting blow's good for the faster units but of course is genderlocked.

As for others, it depends on what you're raising as is. I could go into further detail if you want.

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48 minutes ago, Aethelstan said:

I'm trying to train everyone physical in axes to reclass to brigand for death blow. Other than that are there any must have skills I should be going for?

Like Dayni mentioned, Fiendish Blow is a must-have for your mages and Hit +20 is always useful. I also like to pick up Darting Blow for all the women (even mages) but that may be a bit of a hassle on Maddening unless you're going for Dark Flier. You should at least aim to get it on your fliers (especially Ingrid) though, since they'll be passing through Pegasus anyway.

Just a side note though, I wouldn't go out of my way to get Death Blow on Dimitri. As an enemy phase nuke, he'll do better with skills like Hit +20, Desperation, Swordbreaker and maybe Aegis.

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1 hour ago, Aethelstan said:

Aux battles seem to give so little exp. Should I just be doing monastery stuff every week instead? 

I'm planning on recruiting the DLC characters. What's the best chapter to do it?

I'm trying to train everyone physical in axes to reclass to brigand for death blow. Other than that are there any must have skills I should be going for?

Aux fights aren't good for exp, and generally aren't the best for weapon skills either, but as mentioned they're a way of getting class exp. Definitely don't bother until you unlock the saint statues in chapter 5, though, and even then, explore is usually the best option especially if you plan to do lots recruiting (you'll need to build lots of supports and do faculty training), unless the aux battle is one which helps for a quest (especially the chapter 5 merchant quest).

For the DLC characters, it's better to recruit early if you plan to make them part of the main team, because this allows you to start instructing them and using them in battles (for class masteries, etc.). If there are any you don't plan to use, though, you can wait until right before you do their paralogue, because that way they'll be higher-levelled for it.

Almost every character can be improved by Death Blow or Fiendish Blow as appropriate. Almost every character can also be improved by mastering a Beginner class (Monk, Soldier, Fighter, Myrmidon) because the stat+2 skill is decent and the reposition arts (Reposition itself in particular) are stellar. Darting Blow is great for virtually every physical female unit, too - if you can manage to get both Death Blow and Darting Blow on the same character, they're virtually guaranteed to be a killing machine. Hit+20% is solid but not necessary for non-archers, don't build bows just for it IMO.

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One trick I tend to use is when doing an aux battle is that I leave one priest or bishop alive having them waste their attacks. And then use broken/rusted weapons to build weapon rank and level up classes quickly. One my current GD run on maddening, I already have 4 characters at level 30 and I'm on chapter 15. Others I've used are either close to 30 or at least in their mid twenties.

As for what skills to pick up, pretty much what everyone else said, Darting/Fiendish/Death Blow are a must, Hit +20 is always useful. Even Axe/Lance/Swordbreaker are also good at least situationally.

Since you're doing BL, Dimitri's B.Vantage + B.Wrath Combo is comically strong but worth setting up for. Hit +20 helps with his accuracy (even though it's not that bad to begin with). I tend to also add Lance Crit +10 if possible. He also has Wind Sweep so maybe adding Sword Prowess can be an option pending on what class you plan on making Dimitri.

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Thanks for all the tips so far! They've been very helpful.

Quote

Just a side note though, I wouldn't go out of my way to get Death Blow on Dimitri. As an enemy phase nuke, he'll do better with skills like Hit +20, Desperation, Swordbreaker and maybe Aegis.

What's the optimal class path for Dimitri if I don't go for brigand? 

 

I want to raise all the blue lions characters. I don't want a bad time in Chapter 13. Plus I genually like most of them. The characters I want to recruit and use in the main game are Lysithea, Linhardt, Leonie, Seteth, Bernadetta (if she doesn't get screwed), Dorothea, and Caspar (I know he's not as optimal as units like Petra but I just love the little guy and will probably want Byleth to marry him. He's my favorite member of the cast) but like I said I'm trying to recruit everyone I possibly can.

 

I haven't settled on class paths for everyone but final classes will likely be as follows:

Dimitri - Great Lord (open to Holy Knight for Aura but realistically don't want to train faith that much and it's hard with his slump mid game)

Byleth - Wyvern Lord

Annette - Valkyrie

Ingrid - Falcon Knight

Ashe - Wyvern Lord

Sylvain - Dark Knight

Felix - Trickster or Assassin depending on his MAG

Dedue - War Master

Mercedes - Gremory

Lysithea - Gremory or Valkyrie

Lindhardt - Bishop 

Leonie - No idea, I've always done Bow Knight, open to ideas.

Seteth - Wyvern Lord

Bernadetta - Bow Knight

Dorothea - Dancer

Caspar - War Master, I have enough Wyvern Lords.

 

Open to any tips on class paths or better final classes. Thanks again!

Edited by Aethelstan
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I'm not sure if it's a DLC thing or a Switch Online pass thing, but you may have access to double reward auxiliary battles.  The enemies are considerably higher level there, and there's more of them, so if you really want to gain some levels with Aux grinding, they're the way to do it, with the proviso that they don't exist in a vanilla playthrough of the game.  (These special aux battles also have surprisingly rad music that doesn't play anywhere else - Corridor of the Tempest if you want to look it up.)  That said, per the others, gaining levels isn't really the goal with aux battles, with the slight exception of healers who keep gaining XP at their normal rate of course.  So doing some aux grinding can get you mildly overlevel healers if you want.

You never have the ability to deploy more than 12 units in a battle (and it's usually 10-11).  So, if you're being "optimal", it's technically the best to settle on which units you're using sooner so you don't "waste" levels on other units.  If you're using all 8 Lions + Byleth, that means you essentially have 3 slots to fill from among recruits, Church members, and Gilbert.  That said, it's fun to build a lot of units, so go ahead and build 16 units if you want!  You will be a bit behind in levels / skills, though, if you rotate that aggressively, so feel free if things are getting rough to relegate a few of the extra to permanent adjutant duty.

Leonie on Verdant Wind can make a solid Falcon Knight / Wyvern Lord as well, but as a recruit, you kinda want to wait until C7 or later so she gets her improved enemy-Cavalier growths, which does kinda lock her down a Paladin / Bow Knight route.

Barren brought up Broken Weapon / Bishop cheeze.  This exists and might be a useful escape valve if you're in trouble, but for what it's worth, don't feel obligated to do this or anything - it's more of a cool bonus if you want to bring a character up to speed really quickly, rather than a "you must do this to stand a chance."  For example, if you want Seteth to learn Deathblow for C12, he joins so late that you only have time for very few aux battles where he needs to take a ton of Brigand actions with a Knowledge Gem equipped, so some amount of cheeze and/or letting Seteth solo an aux map works.  (There's another thread about skipping Aux battles entirely which is definitely doable, so yeah, don't feel like you're missing out if you skip on this kind of grinding.)

Speaking of Seteth, Wyvern Lord is his "canon" class and never a bad choice, but it might be at least worth considering the Cavalier backtrack into Paladin, which is sadly the only way to get Lancefaire'd Swift Strikes.  Getting the one round KO is pretty important in Maddening, so the loss of flight can be worthwhile if it sets up Seteth to get certain Swift Strikes kills he wouldn't otherwise.  Up to you on the balance you want to strike there.

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2 hours ago, Aethelstan said:

I haven't settled on class paths for everyone but final classes will likely be as follows:

...

First and foremost, you are running 15 units. Plan on benching adjunction 4 of them, because you mostly have 11 deployment slots. Assuming you bench some of them, here are some better classes.

  • Dimitri: Paladin > Great Lord. It has 2 extra movement and Canto. Battalion Wrath + Battalion Vantage is OP so all Dimitri needs is mobility to get into the right position.
  • Ashe: As Wyvern Lord, Ashe is not going to be killing much. He has bad Str and lacks enough Spd for Maddenning. If you are not benching him just go Sniper.
  • Annette: Go Wyvern Lord. Annette's spells stop killing well before level 30 and she has a terrible faith list. On the other hand, her best offensive tools are Lightning Axe and Bolt Axe+. Wyvern Lord is going to be much better than Valkyrie at both of those things. The 8 move and Flying is also nice for Rallies.
  • Sylvain: Stay Paladin instead Dark Knight. Swift Strikes is significantly stronger than anything his spells can do. Just stay Paladin for the extra +1 move and Lancefaire. Another great option is Wyvern Lord, but there is a limit to how many fliers you should run.
  • Felix: Trickster is a terrible class to end in. It has 5 move, no Swordfaire, and half spell uses. Assassin is not much better. Felix's best classes are:
    • Sniper. Felix's high Str means Hunters Volley is a reliable kill even without crits. Sniper also lets him use Aegis Shield without worrying about the weight penalty.
    • Grappler. More mobile than Sniper but less range. Can grab +20 Brawl Avoid along with Aegis Shield to become very tanky.
    • War Master. Like Grappler with slightly worse mobility and player phase combat in exchange for +20 Crit.
  • Dedue: I would recommend adjunction him to Dimitri. If you are going to use him, try some sort of Vengeance build as Paladin.
  • Lys: Personally I think Gremory is significantly better than Valkyrie or Dark Knight, but they are all strong. I also prefer Dark Knight to Valkyrie because the extra move tends to be more relevant than extra range when Lys is already using Thyrus.
  • Mercedes: You are running Lin as a Bishop. Meaning aside from being a backup healer, Gremory Mercedes does not do much. If you want her to be able to kill enemies consider going Sniper and using Hunters Volley with a Magic Bow+.
  • Leonie: Bow Knight is great and very easy to class into. She is probably better as a Falcon Knight or Wyvern Lord to just spam PBV from the skies, but they are harder to class her into. 
  • Bernadetta:  I see you want to run her as a Bow Knight, but I want to make sure you intend to be using Vengeance instead of bows. Low HP Vengeance based Bernedetta is one of the strongest units in the game. She can one shot almost anything, including bosses. Her best classes to make use of Vengeance are:
    • Paladin for Lancefaire
    • Bow Knight. As mobile as Paladin but lacking Lancefaire. BK Bernie can use Encloser to CC enemies when its not safe to get in melee range to nuke with Vengeance.
    • Falcon Knight. Probably her best class. Flying + Lancefaire is amazing. Can get Defiant Avoid for durability. Unfortunately cannot use guard adjuncts while flying, so she depends on the Blessing gambit to get to low HP safely.
    • Holy Knight. Not a meme. Can use both Physic and Rescue to support your other units when its unsafe to Vengeance. Unfortunately has -1 move compared to the other options

A note on putting Felix/Sylvain in magic classes. If you are dead set on Dark Knight Sylvain or Mortal Savant Felix (MS is better than Trickster), it is very important to class them into Warlock at level 20 to get the 17 base magic. Both of them have terrible base magic stats and the only way their spells will ever do anything is to rely on Warlock's base magic stat. But overall the hybrid/magic versions of the characters are much worse than the physical versions

The only hybrid builds I have had success with are MS Yuri and MS Ingrid. They both have high enough speed to double on Maddening and they also have strong Faith spell lists.

1 hour ago, SnowFire said:

Speaking of Seteth, Wyvern Lord is his "canon" class and never a bad choice, but it might be at least worth considering the Cavalier backtrack into Paladin, which is sadly the only way to get Lancefaire'd Swift Strikes.  Getting the one round KO is pretty important in Maddening, so the loss of flight can be worthwhile if it sets up Seteth to get certain Swift Strikes kills he wouldn't otherwise.  Up to you on the balance you want to strike there.

The difference in damage with Swift Strikes between Paladin and Wyvern Lord is negligible. Paladin has +5 from Lancefaire, but Wyvern Lord has +2 Str. Overall with both attacks, Swift Strikes will only +6 total damage when in Paladin. It is not worth the loss of mobility. Even more true for Seteth who has an already massive Str stat. 

Edited by Objeckts
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14 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

Annette: Go Wyvern Lord. Annette's spells stop killing well before level 30 and she has a terrible faith list. On the other hand, her best offensive tools are Lightning Axe and Bolt Axe+. Wyvern Lord is going to be much better than Valkyrie at both of those things. The 8 move and Flying is also nice for Rallies.

I hard disagree here - the Bolt Axe+ is too inaccurate to rely on.

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1 hour ago, Aethelstan said:

What's the optimal class path for Dimitri if I don't go for brigand?

Something along the lines of Myrmidon/Soldier > Archer > Cavalier > Paladin helps him pick up some pretty useful skills. If you plan on training him at all in swords, I'd say try and spend some time in Thief too to build up his Spd and Dex. Ideally, I think you should aim for Lance Prowess, B.Vantage, B.Wrath, Hit +20 and either Swordbreaker or Desperation. That should serve him well for an enemy phase build.

Also, do you plan on recruiting Marianne or Ferdinand by any chance? I'd personally consider them both better Dancer candidates than Dorothea, tbh. Dorothea's got a nasty riding bane to deal with, which might put Movement +1 just out of reach on Maddening. She's also got a pretty great spell list (Sagittae, Thoron and Meteor) that would serve her much better in an offensive class like Gremory (or Dark Flier thanks to it's mercifully low flying requirement). Marianne and Ferdie both have sword and riding boons, with Marianne serving as an excellent backup healer as well. Ferdie might actually be the best Dancer though, since his personal lets him get pretty close to 100% avoid. By stacking Confidence with Sword Prowess, Sword Avoid +20, Axebreaker, an Evasion Ring and a high avoid battalion (like Brigid Hunters), he should be able to dance people right in the thick of things without fear of dying on the enemy phase.

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21 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I hard disagree here - the Bolt Axe+ is too inaccurate to rely on.

Bolt Axe is just for 3 range poke, Lightning Axe is what Annette will be mostly using for killing. She can use a Training Axe+ with Lightning Axe for reliable kills for most of the game. Eventually she needs to swap to higher Mt axes, but not early game. 

Also enemies have lower magic avoid than physical avoid, meaning magic accuracy is not as important.

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Just now, Objeckts said:

Bolt Axe is just for 3 range poke, Lightning Axe is what Annette will be mostly using for killing. She can use a Training Axe+ with Lightning Axe for reliable kills for most of the game. Eventually she needs to swap to higher Mt axes, but not early game. 

Also enemies have lower magic avoid than physical avoid, meaning magic accuracy is not as important.

I'd say it kinda is when your weapon of choice has a laughable 60 hit.

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd say it kinda is when your weapon of choice has a laughable 60 hit.

Things like Axe Prowess skills, hit from battalions, Hit +20, Accuracy Ring and Dex exist to solve that very problem.

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Part of why I wanted to recruit everyone I could and unlock as many paralogues as possible is because I thought it would provide enough exp to keep more than 11 units up to speed for the main game. 

 

Do most of you believe that's not feasible even with all the paralogues? I will definitely adjust my long term strategy if that's the case. 

 

I have to admit Annette as a Wyvern Lord feels very weird but it would be nice to use Crusher properly.

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32 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Also, do you plan on recruiting Marianne or Ferdinand by any chance? I'd personally consider them both better Dancer candidates than Dorothea, tbh. Dorothea's got a nasty riding bane to deal with, which might put Movement +1 just out of reach on Maddening. She's also got a pretty great spell list (Sagittae, Thoron and Meteor) that would serve her much better in an offensive class like Gremory (or Dark Flier thanks to it's mercifully low flying requirement). Marianne and Ferdie both have sword and riding boons, with Marianne serving as an excellent backup healer as well. Ferdie might actually be the best Dancer though, since his personal lets him get pretty close to 100% avoid. By stacking Confidence with Sword Prowess, Sword Avoid +20, Axebreaker, an Evasion Ring and a high avoid battalion (like Brigid Hunters), he should be able to dance people right in the thick of things without fear of dying on the enemy phase.

Dorothea is the 2nd best Dancer in the game. Meteor is at its best on a Dancer. She can leave it equipped while she dances and give linked attacks to your whole team. +1 move is great,  but 10% hit/avoid for the whole team is better. 

10 minutes ago, Aethelstan said:

Part of why I wanted to recruit everyone I could and unlock as many paralogues as possible is because I thought it would provide enough exp to keep more than 11 units up to speed for the main game. 

 

Do most of you believe that's not feasible even with all the paralogues? I will definitely adjust my long term strategy if that's the case. 

 

I have to admit Annette as a Wyvern Lord feels very weird but it would be nice to use Crusher properly.

If this is your first time in Maddening, just try to play optimally. Im sure you could beat the game with everyone at a lower level due to extra xp sharing, but it's going to be harder. 

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Aethelstan: There's a quote that "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."  That kind of applies to distinguished Fire Emblem forum posters opining about Fire Emblem builds as well.  I think you can safely ignore most of the advice above whenever it says "you HAVE to do XYZ" or "XYZ build is not viable and sucks."  On the other hand, if somebody suggests a build as cool and powerful, it's probably at least viable.  So...  you can absolutely run Valkyrie Annette (I'm fond of Dark Flier for her thanks to her Flying Boon, but Valk is cool too), Dancer Dorothea (I did the same in my BL run), or even Trickster Felix (although I'd lean toward Assassin).  You can also run Wyvern Lord Annette, War Master Felix, whatever.  (And definitely Gremory Mercedes, she's an absolutely fine offensive unit if there isn't healing to be done, and a spare healer is solid anyway!  Weird to see that one criticized....)

If you're recruiting people just for their paralogues, you probably don't have to worry about "builds" for them at all, barring Caspar I guess who you do get rewarded for authentically building with better rewards from his paralogue.  Leonie & Linhardt to a lesser degree just because their paralogue is one of the hardest in the game so dead deploy slots there hurt a bit.   Anyway, XP is highly scaled in 3H, so even if all the paralogues kept people afloat in level in White Clouds, it won't last in part 2 without some grinding.  That said, you absolutely CAN build large teams, and people have done so and completed Maddening just fine.  It just means that characters will be a bit behind in level (but not tragically so due to the XP scaling), and you'll have an incentive not to do too many "exotic" builds that require a ton of tutoring, sticking to simple stuff like Sniper.  It's up to you if that tradeoff is worth it; if you like building large teams, absolutely don't let us stop you.

(EDIT: And I definitely disagree with Objects's last comment.  Maddening isn't so impossibly hard that only "optimal" play can get you through, even for a first time.  Feel free to have fun and be adventurous, it won't lock you out of beating the game unless you do something REALLY wacky.)

Edited by SnowFire
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Okay you've all given me a lot to think about. I've only played Maddening NG+ with BE and VW before. This is my first Maddening NG on any route. Blue Lions I've only played on Hard so I've never had to worry too much about optimizing these units.

I guess I'll drop all my extra units from the main party except Dorothea, Lysithea, and Caspar. Might consider others if I bench Dedue or Ashe after Chapter 13. Because I won't be using Lin, I definitely will want Mercedes as a Gremory since she will do the bulk of the healing. I'm going to take a lot of the other advice on classes. So I'll do Sniper Ashe and keep Slyvain as a paladin. But I still feel a little weird giving up on Annette's magic altogether. What are people's thoughts on her as a Dark Knight wielding magical weapons? Does it dramatically underperform her as Wyvern Lord? 

33 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

Dorothea is the 2nd best Dancer in the game. Meteor is at its best on a Dancer. She can leave it equipped while she dances and give linked attacks to your whole team. +1 move is great,  but 10% hit/avoid for the whole team is better.

Who do you think its the first, Ferdinand or Marianne? I always use Dorothea as my dancer. She gives me great results everytime. But I adore Ferdinand and if he's viable it'd be cool to try something new.

 

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23 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

Dorothea is the 2nd best Dancer in the game. Meteor is at its best on a Dancer. She can leave it equipped while she dances and give linked attacks to your whole team. +1 move is great,  but 10% hit/avoid for the whole team is better.

Hard disagree on this one. Meteor's an extremely powerful siege spell that wants to be used. It's much better in the hands of an offensive mage. Not only that, but having it equipped means she can't make use of Sword Avoid +20, which Dancers typically rely on for avoid stacking. She'll get the job done, sure, but I'd hardly call her second best when people like Ferdie and Marianne outclass her in pretty much every way.

Linked attack spam also has the nasty habit of scewing up pairings, if that's something you care about.

5 minutes ago, Aethelstan said:

Who do you think its the first, Ferdinand or Marianne? I always use Dorothea as my dancer. She gives me great results everytime. But I adore Ferdinand and if he's viable it'd be cool to try something new.

A strong case can be made for both, really. Marianne can reliably run the Movement +1/avoid stacking build while also healing with Physic as needed. Ferdie doesn't have the same healing potential as Marianne, but his personal (+15 avoid at full HP) just happens to lend itself perfectly to the Dancer build, getting close to 100% avoid as long as he's got a sword in his hand. If you'd like your Dancer to function as a backup healer, I'd say go with Marianne. But for the best avoid stacking experience, Ferdinand von Aegir's the way to go.

Here's the build if you'd like to try it out: Sword Prowess Lv.5, Sword Avoid +20, Axebreaker and Movement +1 with an Evasion Ring, Brigid Hunters and a Wo Dao+.

That said, Dorothea's by no means a bad Dancer and I'd never try to discourage you from playing the way you like. Personally, I just think she performs (heh) better as an offensive mage thanks to her extremely useful spell list.

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48 minutes ago, Aethelstan said:

Who do you think its the first, Ferdinand or Marianne? I always use Dorothea as my dancer. She gives me great results everytime. But I adore Ferdinand and if he's viable it'd be cool to try something new.

Neither. It's Hilda. She learns Bolting, which works the same on a Dancer as Meteor. The difference between Hilda and Dorothea is that Hilda does not have a riding weakness so she can also get +1 move. Of course Hilda is only really good on GD because those are the units she has supports with. Including special supports with Claude and Balthus that gives them +3 Mt.

Hilda is also faster and bulkier than Dorothea, but your Dancer is rarely going to take a hit anyway.

2 hours ago, Aethelstan said:

I have to admit Annette as a Wyvern Lord feels very weird but it would be nice to use Crusher properly.

I know it seems memey, but it's honestly her best class. Lightning Axe will do more damage in Wyvern Lord than any other class because of Axefaire. 8 move, Flying, and Canto is as much mobility as you can get in this game. She can use her Rallies very effectively with the added mobility. Her entire offensive spell list is low Mt and 2 range, its all worse than Bolt Axe+. Wyvern Lord Annette is a mobile unit who can reliable kill most enemies with Lightning Axe. That is well above par for Maddening.

12 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Hard disagree on this one. Meteor's an extremely powerful siege spell that wants to be used. It's much better in the hands of an offensive mage. Not only that, but having it equipped means she can't make use of Sword Avoid +20, which Dancers typically rely on for avoid stacking. She'll get the job done, sure, but I'd hardly call her second best when people like Ferdie and Marianne outclass her in pretty much every way.

The +20 Sword Avoid is a trap. Avoid only really works when stacked high. Neither Dorothea or Marianne can get enough avoid for it to be reliable. Dancer's cant use Alert Stance+ while dancing and they would have the +1 Move Ring than the +10% Avoid Ring. Even when trying to build a sword avoid build, its still going to run into issues where enemy Falcon Knights and Paladin's just ignore it with Swordbreaker. 

Dancers are safe just by having a strong player phase, the same way you keep other squishy units alive. The units they are Dancing can just kill nearby threats. It is even easier when you have offensive units with Canto who can run back to safety before getting danced. 

12 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Linked attack spam also has the nasty habit of scewing up pairings, if that's something you care about.

Sure but it also adds a lot of consistency to all of your units. Linked attacks are also incredibly important when trying to land gambits.

12 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

A strong case can be made for both, really. Marianne can reliably run the Movement +1/avoid stacking build while also healing with Physic as needed.

Wouldn't it be better to Dance a dedicated healer instead of casting Physic with your Dancer? Dancing your healer will give more overall xp to the whole team. Also your healer is likely using a Healing Staff and in Bishop for +10 Healing, which means they will be able to heal for higher amounts than your Dancer would.

Either way, Dorothea learns Physic.

12 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

 

Ferdie doesn't have the same healing potential as Marianne, but his personal (+15 avoid at full HP) just happens to lend itself perfectly to the Dancer build, getting close to 100% avoid as long as he's got a sword in his hand. If you'd like your Dancer to function as a backup healer, I'd say go with Marianne. But for the best avoid stacking experience, Ferdinand von Aegir's the way to go.

Here's the build if you'd like to try it out: Sword Prowess Lv.5, Sword Avoid +20, Axebreaker and Movement +1 with an Evasion Ring, Brigid Hunters and a Wo Dao+.

Assuming Ferd gets to ~lv44 (meaning an expected 30 Spd), this Dancer Ferd will have ~80% avoid against non axe physical enemies. Most enemies in chapter 22 have 130%-140% hit. This leaves a 50%-60% chance for Ferd to get take a hit even with all of that avoid. Against Paladins/Falcon Knights with Swordbreaker, its going to be closer to 80%-90% chance to get hit. Even when running the avoid build your dancer still needs to be protected just like a non avoid build. Wouldn't it be better to also give your whole team an extra 10% Hit/Avoid at the same time? Dorothea would even have the same movement as Ferd because she would be running either Fetters or a Move Ring.

12 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

That said, Dorothea's by no means a bad Dancer and I'd never try to discourage you from playing the way you like. Personally, I just think she performs (heh) better as an offensive mage thanks to her extremely useful spell list.

Dorothea is not a very strong offensive mage. Meteor would normally be great, but Dorothea does not have a high enough magic stat for it to kill anything. She is not like Constance who can reliable one shot problem enemies from 10+ tiles away. Dorothea is limited to killing Fortress Knights and twice per map providing some chip damage at 10+ range.

Marianne is a much better offensive mage. She has a higher magic stat, so Thoron hits harder (but still not enough to one shot).   

With Frozen Lance or Soulblade she can reliably one shot enemies throughout the game. She has an easy time getting +1 Move, which is great on offensive units.

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1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

Assuming Ferd gets to ~lv44 (meaning an expected 30 Spd), this Dancer Ferd will have ~80% avoid against non axe physical enemies.

  • Speed = 30
  • +20 from battalion = 50
  • +20 from Sword Avoid = 70
  • +15 from his personal = 85
  • +10 from Evasion Ring = 95
  • +20 from Sword Prowess 5 = 115

Quite a bit better, enough to mostly laugh at enemies with 130-140 hit. If you've never done this build before, it's absolutely legitimate. Dimitri does it even better, although it involves giving up Dimitri's other incredible attributes.

1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

Dorothea is not a very strong offensive mage. Meteor would normally be great, but Dorothea does not have a high enough magic stat for it to kill anything. She is not like Constance who can reliable one shot problem enemies from 10+ tiles away. Dorothea is limited to killing Fortress Knights and twice per map providing some chip damage at 10+ range.

Marianne is a much better offensive mage. She has a higher magic stat, so Thoron hits harder (but still not enough to one shot).   

With Frozen Lance or Soulblade she can reliably one shot enemies throughout the game. She has an easy time getting +1 Move, which is great on offensive units.

Dorothea has 10% less magic growth than Marianne, so she'll do 0-4 less damage with Thoron depending on point in the game. On the other hand, she gets all her Reason spells more quickly (including Thoron), and Agnea's Arrow will outdamage any spell Marianne has. Marianne's good too mind, but it's hardly a one-sided comparison. Meteor absolutely one-shots a variety of enemies in the midgame, where magic durability is quite low. Even when it can't one-shot, it does massive chip damage and aggros enemies safely which can be handy.

Dorothea's Meteor linked attacks are hugely valuable regardless (at least on Eagles runs and possibly Lions runs; as you note, Hilda's better for this role on Deer). I don't have a strong opinion on Dancer vs. non-Dancer, both Marianne and Dorothea are good at either role IMO.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
corrected bad math
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Just looking at these comments on whose a better dancer, it’s honestly just a matter on how you’re building your team.
 

For example if you want to go to let’s say Crimson Flower, but you don’t want to use Dorothea as a dancer, there is Constance since she knows bolting. Plus while her support list is short compared to Dorothea, she does have a A rank support with the professor, Edelgard, Ferdinand, Mercedes, Jeritza and all of the Ashen Wolves.

Most of them are strong picks, Edelgard and Byleth especially for you to build a team around. Plus she has Rescue, so in case dancing is not the best option, you can use rescue to get an ally out of danger.

On the Silver Snow route, Constance as a dancer to me becomes less valuable because you lose Edelgard and Jeritza. So I tend to use either Dorothea or Flayn. Dorothea more so because siege tome support as others have pointed out. But Flayn has a niche using Rescue and Fortify.
 

Golden Deer anyone can get away with Marianne or Hilda as a dancer since they have good supports themselves with the rest of the crew. 
 

I can’t seem to figure out who can be a good dancer candidate from the Blue Lions route. Technically Ashe would be ideal since he doesn’t excel at much aside from being a Sniper. In fairness to him, he at least has a axe boon and a budding talent in lances so it is easier for him to go into Wyvern Lord. But his stat growths don’t suggest that they can be salvaged thanks to the class bonuses.
 

Ingrid for similar reasons as Marianne having a sword and riding boon, but I feel it’s a waste since she obviously wants to be flying around. Same with Annette. Her rallies and axe boon are attractive qualities. Sure she can go Dancer but then Dancing or Rallying can be a struggle to figure out.

So I guess my question is to everyone who from the Blue Lions would be a good dancer candidate.

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12 hours ago, SnowFire said:

 So...  you can absolutely run Valkyrie Annette (I'm fond of Dark Flier for her thanks to her Flying Boon, but Valk is cool too)

Annette does not have a Flying Boon (your post was great tho!)

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3 hours ago, Barren said:

I can’t seem to figure out who can be a good dancer candidate from the Blue Lions route. Technically Ashe would be ideal since he doesn’t excel at much aside from being a Sniper. In fairness to him, he at least has a axe boon and a budding talent in lances so it is easier for him to go into Wyvern Lord. But his stat growths don’t suggest that they can be salvaged thanks to the class bonuses.

Ingrid for similar reasons as Marianne having a sword and riding boon, but I feel it’s a waste since she obviously wants to be flying around. Same with Annette. Her rallies and axe boon are attractive qualities. Sure she can go Dancer but then Dancing or Rallying can be a struggle to figure out.

So I guess my question is to everyone who from the Blue Lions would be a good dancer candidate.

IMO, on Blue Lions, I would consider all of the following good Dancers (not in any particular order)

  • Dimitri, for game-breaking levels of evade. Also sword/riding boon.
  • Ferdinand, same deal. Doesn't require giving up Dimitri's other roles, does require recruiting Ferdinand, means you have no Dancer for Chapter 13
  • Dorothea, best siege-tome supporter for the route (Felix, Ingrid, Sylvain + any Eagles you recruited, like Petra) though sadly there's no Lion siege tome user, nor any that supports Dimitri period.
  • Ashe or Annette, because both are not great PCs (imo) but they exist on the west side of Reunion at Dawn, and a Dancer is automatically a great PC, so you have one more excellent unit to help you win one of the trickier fights in the game. (If anyone reading this thinks Mercedes is worse than these two, throw her name in here instead.) Annette can also still one-shot wyverns, while Ashe has enough speed to kinda pull off the sword avoid build, if not nearly as well as Dimitri/Ferdinand obviously.
  • Marianne or, with DLC, Hapi. Both have a three-range spell, both support Dimitri (which one has a better support list will depend on if you're using other Wolves/etc.), both have Physic if you need healing and your dancer can't reach another healer, both have a Riding boon.
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10 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Neither. It's Hilda. She learns Bolting, which works the same on a Dancer as Meteor. The difference between Hilda and Dorothea is that Hilda does not have a riding weakness so she can also get +1 move. Of course Hilda is only really good on GD because those are the units she has supports with. Including special supports with Claude and Balthus that gives them +3 Mt.

Hilda is also faster and bulkier than Dorothea, but your Dancer is rarely going to take a hit anyway.

Bolting support is nice and all, but think about what you're throwing away by making Hilda your Dancer. Her Str and Spd growths, B.Wrath and her personal Relic all make her absolutely devastating as a Wyvern Lord. Dancer by comparison is a straight up waste of her talents.

I feel like one thing people forget about when choosing a Dancer is oppprtunity cost. What you're giving up to make someone your Dancer is just as important as their performance as one. Yes, you may enjoy Bolting/Meteor support, but when that's coming at the cost of Hilda's potential as a Wyvern (or Dorothea's as a Gremory/Dark Flier), is it really worth it? Personally, I say no. You take someone like Marianne or Ferdinand, however, and you're looking at a significantly better trade-off. I'm not saying Ferdie isn't a good unit, but the dude's more or less a carbon copy of Sylvain. And when you compare the two, Sylvain's available for free on every route (as long as you're playing female Byleth, which is better for Maddening anyway because Darting Blow/Falcon Knight access), he's got a much stronger early game performace and he has one of the best Relic weapons, which you can even get as early as Ch.5. Basically, as long as you have Sylvain, there's no reason not to make Ferdie your Dancer. After all, he's got both the appropriate boons, a good Spd growth and a personal that makes him perfect for the role. As for Marianne, she's got a decent Reason list but far from the best. Thoron's really all she's got in that department. No Sagittae or siege tome like Dorothea or Constance. No dark magic like Lysithea. Meanwhile she's got a good Faith list, but nothing that really satisfies the dedicated healer role better than Mercedes or Linhardt. A case could be made for a Frozen Lance Falcon Knight build if you wanted to do something interesting with her, but the simplest option is still to make her a Dancer. She's got the sword and riding boons to make it work and she can even keep up the healing if the situation calls for it.

11 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Dancers are safe just by having a strong player phase, the same way you keep other squishy units alive. The units they are Dancing can just kill nearby threats. It is even easier when you have offensive units with Canto who can run back to safety before getting danced. 

Isn't it better to have one less squishy unit to babysit though? If your Dancer can take care of themselves on the enemy phase, it means you don't have to worry as much about where you left them on the player phase.

11 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Sure but it also adds a lot of consistency to all of your units. Linked attacks are also incredibly important when trying to land gambits.

Tell that to Dorothea, who's forced to boink Linhardt for the rest of her life.

11 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Wouldn't it be better to Dance a dedicated healer instead of casting Physic with your Dancer?

Of course it would. That's why I said backup healer, not dedicated healer. If Felix is one hit away from death and Marianne can't get to Mercedes for whatever reason, isn't it good that she also has the ability to heal him up? That's all I meant, not that Marianne wouldn't normally just dance Mercedes. It's a backup option in case you get into a situation where that can't happen.

As for your other two points, I think @Dark Holy Elf covered them pretty thoroughly. Also remember that Dancers aren't meant to be full-blown dodge tanks (with the possible exception of Ferdie). I'm not saying to throw your Dancer into a horde of enemies like you would a dodge tank, just that avoid stacking gives them survivability on the enemy phase which means you can afford to use them in more dangerous situations.

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