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The fandom treats Flayn as a joke and it's harming her image


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Just now, Armchair General said:

Wait until tomorrow?

I. . .guess?  The current state of this topic makes me question a lot of things, including my sanity.

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Look man as a fan of fates, awakening, Naruto, and SAO I get it. Lord knows the amount of stupid jokes and takes I see of those things on a daily basis. Seriously I’ve seen enough Obito pedo memes to last me a lifetime completely disregarding the nuances of his character. Or SAO bad haha funny. Kirito is a mary sue! Regardless, sometimes you just gotta ignore the bullshit. Like what you like man and don’t let the discourse dissuade you otherwise. Trust me it’s better for your mental health that way.

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4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If the worst that anyone can think of is "meme", then. . .my goodness.

I'm still trying to figure out whether or not it's worth keeping this topic open.

I vote no. It seems like he only started this thread to swing his broomstick at some strawmen.

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6 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I. . .guess?  The current state of this topic makes me question a lot of things, including my sanity.

Once you seen stuff like SMG4, you'll realize that people will come up with the weirdest things... Because it's funny and a lot of people like it, despite what others would say about it.

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Before you decide to shut down the discussion, could anyone at least address my point that people believing memes to be fact is, at worst, mildly problematic? That was the crux of my post, and it seems to have gone ignored.

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10 minutes ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

Before you decide to shut down the discussion, could anyone at least address my point that people believing memes to be fact is, at worst, mildly problematic? That was the crux of my post, and it seems to have gone ignored.

Does it matter if it's actually true?

In this case the questionable pathfinding of the allied A.I.

Edited by Armchair General
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8 hours ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

And to my surprise and frustration, the most popular reaction was asking if Seteth would really be okay with Flayn and Byleth's marriage. Anyone who's played the game and actually knows these characters should not be asking this, but the fact is that the "Angry Seteth" meme has become so ubiquitous that a worryingly high amount of people have assumed it to be reality (this pic was commissioned specifically to challenge that assumption).

At the risk of continuing this topic beyond its due course, I'd argue there's plenty of evidence in game to support that reaction. Flayn and Claude's ending, for example, says that Seteth never learned of their relationship, which is a solid indicator that they didn't think he'd be OK with it, or they were too scared to find out. Seteth's whole support with Flayn is about him being too overprotective and acting when he suspects somebody is trying to get too close to Flayn. But the A support is basically resolved by Flayn accepting that its a sign of his love for her and allowing him to continue worrying over her. 

Now, would this change if it was Byleth, as opposed to someone like Claude? Of course. Seteth trusts Byleth more. But I doubt that means he'd immediately be on board with it, with no reservations whatsoever. So its not unreasonable to wonder that.

11 minutes ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

Before you decide to shut down the discussion, could anyone at least address my point that people believing memes to be fact is, at worst, mildly problematic? That was the crux of my post, and it seems to have gone ignored.

Stuff like Flayn's fish obsession became so prevalent because its just so silly that it was impossible for it to go unmemed. That doesn't mean that people actually believe that Flayn braids her hair with fish, or attacks people in the monastery with fish, or whatever the other memes about it say. It just means that the memes get more traction because they're funny (and probably get more attention than a serious comment, which might be why you saw so many jokes about Angry Seteth on the art). That's not a problem endemic to Flayn, or even Fire Emblem or gaming in general. And it doesn't mean that serious discussion of her character doesn't exist somewhere.

Tl;dr: memes are memes, so they'll get repeated and spread a lot. But memes and serious discussion aren't mutually exclusive, so I'm fine with the prevalence of the former over the latter. 

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53 minutes ago, eclipse said:

including my sanity.

I threw mine away long ago, so I can relate! Xd

Seriously on topic: I can understand how you feel TC, but everyone, in the end, will like and dislike the characters they want to. And it isn't always their fault that the devs wrote them poorly or something. I'd say not to let it bother you but I also understand that its not that simple. 

Just... like a character for the reasons you want, rather than trying to appease others. They dont see things the way you do, and thus might be bothered by their X reasoning as much as you are on the opposite end.

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40 minutes ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

Before you decide to shut down the discussion, could anyone at least address my point that people believing memes to be fact is, at worst, mildly problematic? That was the crux of my post, and it seems to have gone ignored.

Oh, I could tell you.  But if you're so upset by memes, of all things. . .then it would be horribly irresponsible of me to say anything else.  You'll just have to take my word that silly memes are the extremely mild end of "worst things that can happen to a character".

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21 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

Now, would this change if it was Byleth, as opposed to someone like Claude? Of course. Seteth trusts Byleth more. But I doubt that means he'd immediately be on board with it, with no reservations whatsoever. So its not unreasonable to wonder that.

Counterpoint: Seteth literally tells Byleth he views him/her as family. That compounded with his A Support dialog, which is needed to get this scene, leaves very little room to doubt the level of trust and security Seteth places in Byleth. Yes, even regarding Flayn.

15 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Oh, I could tell you.  But if you're so upset by memes, of all things. . .then it would be horribly irresponsible of me to say anything else.  You'll just have to take my word that silly memes are the extremely mild end of "worst things that can happen to a character".

Unfortunately I'm already well aware. I've seen people share monstrous opinions about Flayn and what they wish would happen to her. Memes most certainly are not the worst ways people have expressed themselves over her, but that also doesn't mean there's no merit in discussing the impact they have.

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Just now, LelouchUzumaki said:

Unfortunately I'm already well aware. I've seen people share monstrous opinions about Flayn and what they wish would happen to her. Memes most certainly are not the worst ways people have expressed themselves over her, but that also doesn't mean there's no merit in discussing the impact they have.

. . .yeah, that's still low on the horrifying scale.  Apparently what I know would scar your mind in unspeakable ways.

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Is this a general anti-meme crusade or just an anti-Flayn-meme crusade?

Are you okay with memes mocking other fictional characters you don't care for?

It sounds like you are okay with them just because they have wider general appeal than Flayn does.

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Unfortunately, this not apply just to Flayn, or just 3H for that matter.

Much like other fandoms as of late, such as MegaTen games, Jojo, etc once the fandom grows to a substantial size, this kind of thing just seems to happen with the mainstream. Be it due to voice actors and their fans trending jokes, or general behavior of a younger audience, this kind of thing just always seems to happen.

Typically discussions like this snowball into conversations about Gatekeeping, etc, so I’ve learned to tread carefully...

I can actually sympathize with the “gatekeeping crowd”, seeing how it can become very isolated in a community you find yourself very engaged in enjoying a piece of media in a way that you personally feels construes what is intended to be portrayed, however there is nothing to be done about it.

In this case, people truly don’t care for Flayn or other characters in the mainstream outside of these memes and such. As you are free to enjoy what is presented in game, they are free to enjoy the image they created of her, once again as did you. At the end of the day, it’s a game character. Pixels on a screen. She’s not real, therefore the “defamation” does nothing aside from isolate members in the fandom. 

I personally get frustrated (not really, but I guess it makes me sigh a little lol) when I notice as of late people have lost their voices in the fandom and then seem to share the exact same sentiment as you when it becomes convenient, with this being exhibit A.
Some of these characters were memed the hell out of, be it Rhea or Edlegard most popularly, however when some decently big named FE Tuber makes a character analysis, the fandom seems to take that content as gospel and begin to gatekeep against those who made the same memes they once did...

I suppose I can relate in full, seeing how I love Gilbert’s character and that is certainly a death wish within this fandom lol. I can confidently state he’s one of the few characters in 3H cast, and FE overall that feels pretty human, and I respect and admire the themes in his character. I think his relationship with Annette is a little new to FE, as in I don’t think it’s been done much which certainly makes him stand out. I could gush about Gilbert all day, but the fandom in the mainstream wants nothing of it.

I was kicked off of a friend’s community some time ago because my bias towards him under a post about him was perceived “problematic”...the gatekeeper has been successfully gatekeeper, I suppose.

Either way, I’m not into policing your or others interest, be it for the character presented in game or the memes. I’m certainly passionate about the characters, but I’m not gonna tell a fandom that just played there first and last FE a year and a half ago to stop having fun because their doing it wrong.

It’s really all just pixels at the end of the day, and I think the community has places where you can enjoy characters as they are presented in game without others bogging down the engagement with memes, or in the least I’d hope to think. 
I’m always one for gushing about characters, be it poorly written, overshadowed by memes, or not in FE, so who knows? Perhaps there are others like me who can be your Flayn/Seteth-fanboy outlet. Others who are likely just as passionate about these two in particular as you outside of memes/who aren’t fanboys of the VA’s.

...I’m a little stumped however in my search for Gilbert fans, but who knows? Maybe your search will be much more fruitful.

Or better yet, create a video essay on why their characters are good to you, and maybe the entire fandom will become your outlet.

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It's a fictional character. I understand liking a character enough to feel strong opinions about that character, but at the end of the day, people are going to be people. You can't really change what they do as long as it's not hurting anyone.

Characters become memes all the time. Roger from FE11, Kellam from FE13, the "can't win against Garnef" guy from FE1, etc. And that's just in FE. In some cases, the tropes/aspects of these characters are exaggerated. Other times they're not. But it's really not for anyone to say that they should or shouldn't be made into memes if the entire point is humor anyway. Exaggeration for the sake of humor is just another way to make people laugh.

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Kinda. The game does make it a point to characterize Flyn as kind but also incredibly unintimidating and a little weird. 

And I like it that way. Things like Flayn putting her all in shouting practicing with Raphael wouldn't have worked so well if she wasn't both so earned and so unable to pull it off. 

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i don't even go here but someone here needs a therapist

probably everyone heck i think i might bring up this thread to my therapist when she's back from her recess rofl

dude other people have other opinions. it's a game. it's fine. it's all fine. we are all valid here. you love flayn and she's just the fish girl to someone else and then other people might hate her. it's fine. if it doesn't have real life implications it's fine.

Edited by Axie
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15 hours ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

Before you decide to shut down the discussion, could anyone at least address my point that people believing memes to be fact is, at worst, mildly problematic? That was the crux of my post, and it seems to have gone ignored.

But, pretending that people do believe memes, that is not the memes’ fault. Don’t blame memers for other people’s views of characters, if people want to have some good fun with meme there is nothing wrong with that. People taking them at an extremely surface level value and viewing them as objective fact is their choice, and Flayn jokes aren’t very disrespectful,  so the problem here isn’t with them.

But even then, why does it matter what other people think of Flayn?

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2 hours ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

How is this allowed?

Same way your thread is allowed.  Which I'm still thinking about BTW.

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1 hour ago, Sooks said:

But even then, why does it matter what other people think of Flayn?

I already mentioned it before: I wish I wasn't the only person Flayn meant so much to. Yes, I know she has many fans who like her on a more casual level and draw cute art of her, and I'm not saying that's not valid. It's just frustrating for me seeing tons of people draw and get commissions of such-and-such girl x Byleth (and yes, these people usually do feel as strongly about these girls as I do for Flayn and see themselves as Byleth in those scenarios), whereas no one creates or cares about such content for Flayn other than myself. She's a wonderful character and I just think she deserves to be loved in the same way as every other girl.

Edited by LelouchUzumaki
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3 minutes ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

I already mentioned it before: I wish I wasn't the only person Flayn meant so much to. Yes, I know she has many fans who like her on a more casual level and draw cute art of her, and I'm not saying that's not valid. It's just frustrating for me seeing tons of people draw and get commissions of such-and-such girl x Byleth (and yes, these people usually do feel as strongly about these girls as I do for Flayn and see themselves as Byleth in those scenarios), whereas no one creates or cares about such content for Flayn other than myself. She's a wonderful character and I just think she deserves to be loved in the same way as every other girl.

And you think memes are the reason for that? Why?

Also I wouldn’t say every other girl. Leonie’s memes straight up say that her Jeralt thing is the only part of her character, despite it never coming up in any supports except for Byleth and Alois.

12 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Same way your thread is allowed.  Which I'm still thinking about BTW.

So like, undetermined-ly allowed?

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7 minutes ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

I already mentioned it before: I wish I wasn't the only person Flayn meant so much to. Yes, I know she has many fans who like her on a more casual level and draw cute art of her, and I'm not saying that's not valid. It's just frustrating for me seeing tons of people draw and get commissions of such-and-such girl x Byleth (and yes, these people usually do feel as strongly about these girls as I do for Flayn and see themselves as Byleth in those scenarios), whereas no one creates or cares about such content for Flayn other than myself. She's a wonderful character and I just think she deserves to be loved in the same way as every other girl.

She's a character first.  I will judge her on those merits.  Her character has no appeal to me.

That's probably the fairest way to put it.  No, I'm not going to value the same things you do.  And that's perfectly okay.  And it's ALSO okay to poke fun at those pixels known as characters.  I'm putting up a bit of a parody for an entire series, and I doubt I'm going to get any hate mail for it.

2 minutes ago, Sooks said:

So like, undetermined-ly allowed?

Yeah.  Like, not explicitly against the rules, but damn it's making me think.

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51 minutes ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

I already mentioned it before: I wish I wasn't the only person Flayn meant so much to. Yes, I know she has many fans who like her on a more casual level and draw cute art of her, and I'm not saying that's not valid. It's just frustrating for me seeing tons of people draw and get commissions of such-and-such girl x Byleth (and yes, these people usually do feel as strongly about these girls as I do for Flayn and see themselves as Byleth in those scenarios), whereas no one creates or cares about such content for Flayn other than myself. She's a wonderful character and I just think she deserves to be loved in the same way as every other girl.

So here's the thing in terms of Occam's Razor: Just because you like a certain character more than the average person does (which isn't wrong, by itself) doesn't means that your favorite character will be the most popular out of all of them.

Edited by Armchair General
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