Moving beyond ez mode

[xigbar7]

Hey, first time poster, long time (at least 5 years) lurker. 
Quarantine left me with an abundance of time to get better at games I previously only played casually and never pushed myself on (lots of low level Dark Souls runs this summer) and I'm going to be running through HHM soon (I'm on Chapter 10 of LHM as I type). 

Just a couple questions, having never played the game outside HNM/ENM, which I have done probably a dozen times. 

1.) If I'm not playing for rank the first time trying hard mode are Nils/Ninian really that good? I've used them on normal mode since I recognize the value of using my best unit twice, even as a casual player. But the lower number of deployed units on most maps makes it seem like running an efficient combat unit like another mounted/flying type would be better since I don't care about low turn count per se and don't anticipate using Warp strategies to the full extent that I have read about.

2.) What are some trap units in this game that I might have indulged on normal mode that become unbearable on Hard Mode? I have previously enjoyed babying Nino on normal because I love raising units from the ground up but I know that is probably not going to happen on this play through and will settle for Pent/Erk if he gets RNG luck to take care of anima magic use.

Thanks!

[eclipse]

1. It depends on the map.  Sometimes, you'll want the extra firepower.  Other times, you need to get someone from point A to point B a bit faster.  Or maybe your strategy is very heavy on unit positioning.  It's up to you~!

2. No one is truly awful (source: drafts, where your unit pool is extremely restricted).  Bases are a bigger asset on higher difficulties due to the restricted amount of experience.  And all of these pale in comparison to things like paying attention to how the enemies moves, as well as figuring out when to play defensive and when to play offensive.  Among a lot of other small things.

In other words, get your feet wet, fail a bit on Eliwood Hard Mode, pick yourself up, and try again!  You'll figure something out!

[Sooks]

1) I would say it really depends on your playstyle, if you like your team is really lacking a specific role than go for that (unless they’re all dead), but if you have room or the role isn’t super important go Ninian/Nils. Why bring on two good units when you can get the better of the two to move twice?

2) No one is really that bad, you can certainly use anyone and get to the end of the game. If I had to pick traps though, I would say Bartre is one since he still isn’t very good, but a lot of people like to put a lot of investment in him to get a mediocre prepromote 90% of the way through the game who is cute, making her objectively worth it that most people bench anyway. Unless you really want to recruit everyone this isn’t worth it, imo. But if you do I understand, because I myself am guilty of this,

[Benice]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

lot of people like to put a lot of investment in him to get a mediocre prepromote 90% of the way through the game

Mediocre? But she's in one of the worst classes, has low bases and-

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

who is cute, making her objectively worth

You win the argument.

 

As for my two cents on the topic: 

1. Being a refresher unit, Ninils are excellent, but if you don't like using refreshers, they aren't must-use.
2. He's not really  trap unit, but 9 times of 10 Canas is better off just using Flux rather than Nosferatu or Luna-The latter two do have their uses, but aren't great for general application due to their weight.But really, use however you want.

Also, if you're planning on getting the true ending if you go HHM, my advice:

1. Don't kill your thief in the first chapter like I did.
2. *Sort of bad advice, but I'd personally bring along a swordmaster or something to take care of Kishuna in 19x, since Kishuna is incredibly hard to take out. With supports to boost their hit, Marcus or promoted Sain might aso work as well.
3. Getting genesis is really hard on HHM-Make sure to bring your dancer or you won't meet the requirements. (IIRC 700 exp to unlock it. That's really hard to get, but doable if you're patient.)
4. If you want to play Genesis legitimately, make sure to have pure waters. Snipers are also unironically decent here as well. If you have a barrier (I can't remember if you have one by this point) you'll want that too, as well as Luna if you've used Canas. If you just want the good ending but lack the resources to complete this chapter, I'd advocate for  the mine glitch there.
5. I'd highly suggest using the warp staff to unlock chapter 32x. I just barely made it to 32x in my own run due to the swamps of enemies, so the Warp Staff will make your life much easier there.

Have fun! Hope that everything pans out for ya.

[ping]

I think that for FE7 specifically, the bigger trap is to not use certain characters, namely Marcus, Pent, and Athos in the last chapter. On the other side of the spectrum, every character will go somewhere where they can contribute if you invest in them, even if there's still plenty of variety in what a character needs to become good and in how far a character can realistically go.

(Since you mentioned Nino specifically - she suffers from a drastic change in enemy line-up in Cog of Destiny specifically. Instead of tasty chunks of Knight- and General-shaped XP, the map is filled with magical enemies which she doesn't do very good against. Which means that Nino has another map removed from the list where she can actually do work after being babied. But she's quite trainable nevertheless - 1-2 range targeting Res is quite good at covering up for any unit's bad defensive parameters. Just ask Lucius.)

[Sooks]

16 minutes ago, Benice said:

Mediocre? But she's in one of the worst classes, has low bases and-

Hmm, I have yet to play hard mode, but my experience with her on Hector normal was that she was mediocre. I think the difficulty was what did it. But she was cute, so I used her at least once! Best strategy!

16 minutes ago, Benice said:

You win the argument.

Never underestimate the power of cute!

16 minutes ago, Benice said:

He's not really  trap unit, but 9 times of 10 Canas is better off just using Flux rather than Nosferatu or Luna-The latter two do have their uses, but aren't great for general application due to their weight.But really, use however you want.

I actually considered listing Canas being a trap, people want to use him because he’s the only dark magic wielded you get for a majority of the game bit isn’t that good imo.

2 minutes ago, ping said:

I think that for FE7 specifically, the bigger trap is to not use certain characters, namely Marcus, Pent, and Athos in the last chapter. On the other side of the spectrum, every character will go somewhere where they can contribute if you invest in them, even if there's still plenty of variety in what a character needs to become good and in how far a character can realistically go.

How is not using Athos a trap? He’s force deployed (and usable) in literally one chapter, the final chapter, with bonkers stats and good weapons and weapon ranks. You would be crazy not to use him, since you don’t have to worry about investment/wasting exp in the final chapter.

[Benice]

12 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Hmm, I have yet to play hard mode, but my experience with her on Hector normal was that she was mediocre. I think the difficulty was what did it. But she was cute, so I used her at least once! Best strategy!

Admittedly, I haven't used her either, but just looking at her stats and her being a swordmastre does seem rather telling.

12 minutes ago, Sooks said:

actually considered listing Canas being a trap, people want to use him because he’s the only dark magic wielded you get for a majority of the game bit isn’t that good imo.

I do have mega bias from him being the hero of Cog of Destiny, but yeah. He's okay and worth using (In my opinion, at least) since he's about equal to the other unpromoted mages but has the benefit of nice Luna'ing in certain moments.

[xigbar7]

Thanks for the tips!

I'm probably going to use Canas even though my experience with him in my many normal mode playthroughs has been that he is mediocre stat wise compared to Lucius or Pent. Mostly a compulsive need to have a guy for each of the end game legendary weapons, nothing objective or numbers based. 

Definitely planned on using the dancer for at least that map, since I have been doing so on normal mode. Funnily enough, I expect getting the 700xp will be EASIER on hard than normal since (hopefully) Pent doesn't stomp everything near him quite as easily. 

I'm on chapter 15 and finding I waste less time feeding weak units (Rebecca died and I didn't blink an eye) and have reflexively been rolling with more of a "just kill that guy" mentality rather than forcing scenarios where I can farm xp for units that require more investment. I'm sure I'll have a pet unit or two that breaks this trend (I L O V E Berserkers so Dart is happening) but it definitely seems more practical to just make strategically optimal plays rather than being greedy. 

I'm SUPER excited to run Geitz. I've always skipped him over since he's kinda eh in normal mode but those joocy bonuses seem like a fun time. Might have him grab that Reinfleche since I'm sick of Rath sorta.

[Hello72207]

On 1/7/2021 at 9:04 PM, xigbar7 said:

Definitely planned on using the dancer for at least that map, since I have been doing so on normal mode. Funnily enough, I expect getting the 700xp will be EASIER on hard than normal since (hopefully) Pent doesn't stomp everything near him quite as easily. 

nope, Pent still absolutely destroys everything. Although now there's a slim (as in like 1% chance) that he dies turn 1 now!

On 1/7/2021 at 9:04 PM, xigbar7 said:

I'm SUPER excited to run Geitz. I've always skipped him over since he's kinda eh in normal mode but those joocy bonuses seem like a fun time. Might have him grab that Reinfleche since I'm sick of Rath sorta.

Geitz is very good statwise in HHM. He comes one chapter (NEVER DO GENESIS IN HHM) after Hawkeye, with much more speed and similar durability. The biggest problem with getting him is you have to train Lyn and Eliwood, which isn't the easiest. You pretty much have to take Eliwood to every map and while it is possible to get Lyn to level 10 in the chapters she's force deployed alone, it's not easy. That's the reason he's not high tier and I think there's a lot a bias against him cause of his recruitment condition. I frankly kinda find it annoying when Mekkah talks about not considering the 20k gold cost for Farina but then dumps Geitz in a much lower tier then he would be because of his recruitment condition. Mekkah even put Geitz in okay and Hawkeye in no-brainer for his HHM character guide, which, seeing as Geitz has much better speed then hawkeye and reliably doubles, doesn't make a lot of sense.

[xigbar7]

8 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

nope, Pent still absolutely destroys everything. Although now there's a slim (as in like 1% chance) that he dies turn 1 now!

Geitz is very good statwise in HHM. He comes one chapter (NEVER DO GENESIS IN HHM) after Hawkeye, with much more speed and similar durability. The biggest problem with getting him is you have to train Lyn and Eliwood, which isn't the easiest. You pretty much have to take Eliwood to every map and while it is possible to get Lyn to level 10 in the chapters she's force deployed alone, it's not easy. That's the reason he's not high tier and I think there's a lot a bias against him cause of his recruitment condition. I frankly kinda find it annoying when Mekkah talks about not considering the 20k gold cost for Farina but then dumps Geitz in a much lower tier then he would be because of his recruitment condition. Mekkah even put Geitz in okay and Hawkeye in no-brainer for his HHM character guide, which, seeing as Geitz has much better speed then hawkeye and reliably doubles, doesn't make a lot of sense.

I’m a completionist so I’m definitely doing Genesis. But I’ve noticed that enemy prepromotes on hard have much higher stats so I anticipate a harder time. 
 

I arena abused a bit on Port of Badon, which I don’t feel too bad about since you only get 7 units counting Canas, and I don’t use the units I trained there until the later chapters where most of my army is promoted anyway. But it was mostly to get Lords to around lvl 15 and let the following chapters do the rest in order to get Linus’ version of the map.

[Hello72207]

15 hours ago, xigbar7 said:

’m a completionist so I’m definitely doing Genesis. But I’ve noticed that enemy prepromotes on hard have much higher stats so I anticipate a harder time

It's filled to the brim with high magic enemies with long range tomes and status staves. And Kishuna leaves... Enemy phase turn 5. It's basically an ambush reinforcement of a dozen siege tome and status stave promoted enemies. It does give good xp tho if you don't lose your mind.

[xigbar7]

6 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

It's filled to the brim with high magic enemies with long range tomes and status staves. And Kishuna leaves... Enemy phase turn 5. It's basically an ambush reinforcement of a dozen siege tome and status stave promoted enemies. It does give good xp tho if you don't lose your mind.

Turn 5 doesn’t sound that bad honestly. I can probably rush most of those enemies in that time since I’ll have more mounts running by then. I promoted Sain ASAP since he was slightly above average on the RNG this run and 8 move seemed like a good “carry my team” option for harder maps. 

[𝐅𝐞𝐧𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐥]

On 1/6/2021 at 4:50 AM, xigbar7 said:

1.) If I'm not playing for rank the first time trying hard mode are Nils/Ninian really that good? I've used them on normal mode since I recognize the value of using my best unit twice, even as a casual player. But the lower number of deployed units on most maps makes it seem like running an efficient combat unit like another mounted/flying type would be better since I don't care about low turn count per se and don't anticipate using Warp strategies to the full extent that I have read about.

let's just say that they're fine for both Lyn/Eliwood Hard modes, if used properly. you could eventually use them in Hector's HM too, but there's better party setup that can be used through that route due to limited deployment.

besides, in Lyn/Eliwood HM you a have a bit more freedom of choice as to how to move around your units and what to do in terms of combat due to the overall balanced difficulty scaling. in HHM, from mid-to-late game usually it's all about stacking stats and tanking reinforcements with broken units.

that route plays more like a puzzle game rather than a SRPG, at least in early chapters until you manage to build up a decent army.

in other words, HHM is mostly about using ring buffs from Nils/Ninian rather than moving units again, or just use other units instead.

On 1/6/2021 at 4:50 AM, xigbar7 said:

2.) What are some trap units in this game that I might have indulged on normal mode that become unbearable on Hard Mode? I have previously enjoyed babying Nino on normal because I love raising units from the ground up but I know that is probably not going to happen on this play through and will settle for Pent/Erk if he gets RNG luck to take care of anima magic use.

basicly, any non-promoted unit that shows up after you start recruiting pre-promoted units can be seen as a handicap, but then again it depends on the route.

by making examples based on my own perspective of the game's difficulty, to me it goes like this:

» in normal routes, you can pretty much use whatever you want in any route.

» in hard modes, you can still use whatever you want in Lyn/Eliwood's paths, as long as you know what you're doing. Hector's route, however, is not as forgiving as the other two, and will force you to play in some specific ways if you want to progress through the game.

if you're also playing for units collection/survival, be prepared to face plenty of chapter restarts in HHM once in a while, because RNG can be quite strong at times and will screw you up with no mercy. Gaiden chapters are the most vicious in that route.

on a side note: Hector, Oswin and Hawkeye will probably end up being your best choices for tanking in HHM.

Edited January 16, 2021 by 𝙵ᴇɴʀᴇɪʀ