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Flying Classes vs Grounded Classes


Whisky
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@Benice @Shadow Mir

Your discussion intrigued me but you were off topic, so I’m creating a new one here.

This might be a first for me, I usually argue Flyers over grounded units. I do consider Wyvern Lord (WL) the best class overall in 3H, with Falcon Knight and Wyvern Rider not far behind. But this time, I’m actually going to be arguing in favor of grounded units, at least a little bit, Flyers still will always have advantages that make them competitive with other classes no matter how much they fall behind in combat or other areas.

But to argue that WL will only have 1 less Atk than other classes if using a weaker Battalion, that isn’t quite accurate, or at least, there’s more to consider than that. I would agree that the Battalions on their own wouldn’t be enough to make grounded classes better than flying classes, but stronger Battalions are one advantage, among others, that grounded classes have over Flyers. And those advantages do add up sometimes. I won’t be arguing in favor of Swordmaster, Assassin, or Warrior, but other grounded classes do have advantages over WL that went unmentioned in that other topic.

Snipers have Hunter’s Volley (HV), which is a very strong Combat Art (CA). In Maddening mode, it can be hard to double most enemies, so HV can be much more effective than normal attacks. Snipers also have long range.

Grapplers have Fierce Iron Fist (FIF), one if, if not the best CA in the game, which gives them possibly the best killing power of any class.

Bow Knights have very long range and have longer link attack effect range than other classes. That, combined with their high Move and Canto can make them very useful, not to mention Bow Faire. Bows are good in this game so that’s nice to have, especially for units that learn Point Blank Volley (PBV).

WarMaster doesn’t only have 1 more Str than WL. They also have +20 Crit. This can make them very likely to get a Crit with two attacks with Killer Gauntlets or by using Smash with a Killer Axe. Smash adds +20 Hit and +20 Crit. That alone brings the Crit rate up to 75. +10 with a Crit Ring, +10 from S rank Axes, and +10-20 from a Battalion, can bring your Crit to 115 before adding your stats which should mostly counter the enemies’ Crit Evade. In other words, WarMaster can reach 100% Crit rates against a lot of enemies with Smash, which is a level of reliable killing power that WL simply can’t match (until they master Defiant Crit, but that takes a while).

Paladin has Lance Faire which means more damage for Swift Strikes and Vengeance.

All of these advantages are combined with the stronger Battalion advantage, and also a few other advantages, like grounded Battalions being able to use Guard adjutants, which is particularly good for a Vengeance build.

Now to be clear, I’m not saying that grounded classes are better than flying classes. Like I said, I still consider WL to be the best class in the game overall, but grounded classes can have more killing power than flying classes, for more reasons than the stronger Battalions. And to be clear, they need those advantages in order to compete with Flyers. Flyers need to be weaker in order to not be entirely superior, and even then, the much greater mobility of a WL is a very strong advantage on its own that makes them very versatile and gives them a lot of options. Even with less killing power, I still think WL is arguably better overall, but they do have less killing power than many other grounded classes, for reasons beyond the weaker Battalions.

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39 minutes ago, Whisky said:

off topic

What does "off topic" mean here ?

You tagged @Benice @Shadow Mir . But I hope I can share my thought too.

I've never played the game before. Arent they all equal ? Infantry no weakness but movement low,  Riding units move faster but has Beast status weakness, Fliers pass terrain but have both Beast & Fly status weakness.

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11 minutes ago, Hasechi Meguhami said:

I've never played the game before. Arent they all equal ? Infantry no weakness but movement low,  Riding units move faster but has Beast status weakness, Fliers pass terrain but have both Beast & Fly status weakness.

Anti-Cavalry/Armor/Flying weaknesses aren't usually an important consideration because in practice those types of weapons don't show up very frequently on enemies.

Mounted units are generally considered superior to non-mounted ones throughout the whole series because oftentimes their stats are at least as good as non-mounted units' on top of also having far superior mobility.

Wyvern Lords are already considered a strong class in most games, but they're absolutely busted in Three Houses because their Speed is better than what we see normally on top of everything else being good, AND like every mounted class they can just dismount their type weaknesses away.

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15 minutes ago, Hasechi Meguhami said:

You tagged @Benice @Shadow Mir . But I hope I can share my thought too.

Yes, please feel free to share your thoughts! 🙂

 

15 minutes ago, Hasechi Meguhami said:

What does "off topic" mean here ?

The two people I tagged were discussing this topic on a different thread was meant to be about something else, so they were getting ‘off the topic of that thread’. Instead of replying to them there, I figured it would be better to create a new thread specifically for it. Anyone can join in if they want. I only tagged those two because they were already talking about it.

18 minutes ago, Hasechi Meguhami said:

I've never played the game before. Arent they all equal ? Infantry no weakness but movement low,  Riding units move faster but has Beast status weakness, Fliers pass terrain but have both Beast & Fly status weakness.

Flyers don’t have beast weakness. They are only weak to arrows. Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses, but that doesn’t make them all equal. Some strengths outweigh others.

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1 hour ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Anti-Cavalry/Armor/Flying weaknesses aren't usually an important consideration because in practice those types of weapons don't show up very frequently on enemies.

Spoiler

Mounted units are generally considered superior to non-mounted ones throughout the whole series because oftentimes their stats are at least as good as non-mounted units' on top of also having far superior mobility.

Wyvern Lords are already considered a strong class in most games, but they're absolutely busted in Three Houses because their Speed is better than what we see normally on top of everything else being good, AND like every mounted class they can just dismount their type weaknesses away.

 

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

Yes, please feel free to share your thoughts! 🙂

Spoiler

The two people I tagged were discussing this topic on a different thread was meant to be about something else, so they were getting ‘off the topic of that thread’. Instead of replying to them there, I figured it would be better to create a new thread specifically for it. Anyone can join in if they want. I only tagged those two because they were already talking about it.

Flyers don’t have beast weakness. They are only weak to arrows. Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses, but that doesn’t make them all equal. Some strengths outweigh others.

 

 

I understand everything you said now. Thank both of you

Edited by Hasechi Meguhami
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I guess my question for people who spam wyvern lords is do they double reliably? I didn't use any wyverns on my maddening AM run, but the only units that were reliably doubling against all enemies without combat arts were Felix and Ingrid. I imagined most units, especially if they're dudes without darting blow, will have trouble one rounding as wyverns.

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The thing with three houses is that flyers don't really offer any utility outside of combat. There's no rescue mechanic and very few side objectives that don't involve combat. That doesn't make flyers outright bad, but it does mean that if you have bad combat, getting to a certain spot early won't do much if you can't kill the enemies there.

On normal and hard that's hardly a concern, because enemies are pretty weak there, and the flying classes have very good base stats/growth rates, so any physical unit can generally become a flyer and be expected to eradicate squads of enemies without much trouble. That makes flying classes very superior on those difficulties.

On Maddening, enemies are actually challenging, so being good a combat is not a given for most units. Flyers will generally still be all round good, but doubling some/most enemies and having decent survivibility isn't always enough. So it's nice to add some units with a more specialized kit like a sniper with Hunters Volley or a War Master with a Wrath+Vantage build.

It's also worth noting that while several classes like Brawler and Sniper can make anyone good, Flying classes can't really do that on Maddening. If the unit was great before becoming that class, they'll still be great, but with more mobility, but if they couldn't really do much at first, they'll still be subpar as wyverns.

That's my opinion based on 1.5 playthroughs on Maddening at least 😛

1 hour ago, Marienburg said:

I guess my question for people who spam wyvern lords is do they double reliably? I didn't use any wyverns on my maddening AM run, but the only units that were reliably doubling against all enemies without combat arts were Felix and Ingrid. I imagined most units, especially if they're dudes without darting blow, will have trouble one rounding as wyverns.

I think doubling enemies like caveliers/paladins or Warriors is doable for most units at some point (though for those not getting Darting Blow it might become a bit tougher), but the faster enemies like Brawlers or Heroes is pretty much the territory of a select few very fast units.

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At the end of the day 3H provides lots of customization options. Even though Fliers are strong, you don't want to literally have a team full of them on Maddening. The only balance for fliers is that they lack battalions, but stat wise Wyvern is too good all around, and you can use any weapon, so the faires that other classes have hardly matter because of Wyvern's high strength growth and mods.

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1 hour ago, Marienburg said:

I guess my question for people who spam wyvern lords is do they double reliably? I didn't use any wyverns on my maddening AM run, but the only units that were reliably doubling against all enemies without combat arts were Felix and Ingrid. I imagined most units, especially if they're dudes without darting blow, will have trouble one rounding as wyverns.

I wouldn't use a team full of Wyverns and nothing else, or at least I haven't tried that yet. I usually use a few fliers per playthrough. I recognize that other classes do have advantages, but I think that fliers (specifically Wyvern Lords most of all) are the best class overall. Being the best class overall, doesn't mean that you should make your entire team one, nor does it mean that it's the best option for every unit. Just in general.

I'm actually surprised to see you say that Felix and Ingrid were doubling "all enemies". Aren't there some enemies that are so fast that they're basically impossible double? Anyway, I do think that fliers can double a good number of enemies, and they can use Brave weapons when they can't. You can also make Ferdinand and Sylvain into Wyverns and have them use Swift Strikes, so there are ways for Wyverns to 1RKO a lot of enemies. They also don't necessarily need to 1RKO to be as good or better than other classes. Like I said earlier, other classes need to perform better in combat (or have some other utility) in order to have a purpose over fliers at all, but even if that's the case, fliers still always have their great mobility advantage. But more on that in the following paragraphs...

51 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

The thing with three houses is that flyers don't really offer any utility outside of combat. There's no rescue mechanic and very few side objectives that don't involve combat. That doesn't make flyers outright bad, but it does mean that if you have bad combat, getting to a certain spot early won't do much if you can't kill the enemies there.

First of all, I disagree that there aren't many side objectives where flying is useful. Wait, you said that "don't involve combat". Well there are a great many situations I found myself in where high mobility and flight saved my behind. There are many scenarios where flying is useful. It doesn't matter how strong grounded units are if fliers are still strong enough to get the job done, and there's plenty of evidence of that being the case. You can look up video playthroughs of people clearing chapters very quickly using fliers. It also doesn't matter how strong grounded classes are if they can't reach the enemy. Again, there are many chapters where flight is extremely useful for bypassing terrain, getting better positioning, getting somewhere quickly, killing an enemy quickly, saving an ally, etc. Grounded units wouldn't be able to do these things no matter how strong they are. There are certain paralogues that I don't know how I would have won without flying.

But also, on a turn by turn basis, fliers have more options. On any given turn, fliers can reach more enemies, have more options, and be more versatile. They may be able to reach enemies that grounded units can't, they might be able to position themselves better for the following turn, between their higher Movement, and their ability to go where grounded units can't, and with Canto they can go on spaces that wouldn't be safe for a grounded unit and then move off afterwards, or just use Canto to position themselves better for the next turn, being able to reach enemies next turn that a grounded unit wouldn't be able to. Even if the flier doesn't perform as well in combat, two fliers with the weakest flying Battalions may be able to reach an enemy that two WarMasters with the strongest ground Battalions can't reach. The two Wyvern's could work together to kill the enemy even if they can't kill it alone, while a WarMaster that can't reach an enemy is useless for that turn. Even with the supposed diminishing returns of having multiple fliers, a WarMaster can't help the first flier to finish off an enemy if they can't reach it, but a second weaker flier could. Higher mobility units are better team players.

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4 hours ago, Hasechi Meguhami said:

I've never played the game before. Arent they all equal ? Infantry no weakness but movement low,  Riding units move faster but has Beast status weakness, Fliers pass terrain but have both Beast & Fly status weakness.

Not really. In general, mounted units have an advantage in these games due to being able to get places sooner. However, certain games make this advantage even more obvious (Genealogy of the Holy War stands out in this regard). On the flipside, armored knights tend to be considered bad because their low movement makes them fall behind; this is especially obvious in the aforementioned Genealogy of the Holy War,  as well as in Binding Blade, where outside of maybe Douglas, all of the armored knights suck. Also, Beast was only a weakness type in Awakening and Fates.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Flying vs Grounded? Unbalance incarnate.

Flying in TH has all the benefits and none of the drawbacks, save their battalions that is. Dismount is the main problem. Normally Fliers cannot take advantage of terrain and are weak to bows. Dismount nulls both of those weaknesses, and also permits usage of Gauntlets.

Grounded class have a plethora of problems. Non-mounted classes tend to have terrible mobility, the ones that do have other problems, and Mounted units have iffy stats.

Easiest way to fix the problem would be to remove Dismount and reduce Fliers growths/remove Canto from them. Is it harsh? Yes, but Fliers are overwhelming powerful. If you have the DLC, you very well can make an all Flying team. But I guess that's another example of TH being too much of a sandbox.

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It is an interesting discussion, and we all know that fliers are great in this game. Makes me wonder if the terrain or sizes of the maps that are the culprit?

I ask that because there are beach maps, forest maps, even town and throne maps. A couple of which makes no difference whether or not you’re a flier, but even so, some maps with obstacles and terrain issues for non flier units can be problematic. 
 

Like the valley of torment map for example, horseback units hate this map due to how restricted their movement gets. Sure assassins and grapplers have typically no issue getting around, but for mounted units that’s suppose to be the best class for movement, only fliers don’t care about hazardous panels.

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2 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Easiest way to fix the problem would be to remove Dismount and reduce Fliers growths/remove Canto from them. Is it harsh? Yes, but Fliers are overwhelming powerful.

This is such a bad argument, Just cripple them isn't helpful. You would only swing them to the other side going from OP to trash and useless. Ground units vs Flying each has what they are good at but 3H gives to much freedom. Players will often just use the easiest route.

Edited by ciphertul
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Fliers are really powerful in part because their advantages simply can't be matched, while they can match the supposed advantages of most infantry classes.

You can raise a wyvern rider's damage by giving them Death Blow, high-atk battalion, strength-boosters, +mt supports, etc. Need them to strike twice? Give them a brave weapon. Need to benefit from terrain and/or bait archers? Dismount. They can match ground classes for offence just fine. But ground classes can not match their mobility. Even if you give Grappler/Assassin (the most mobile infantry classes) Fetters of Dromi and Shoes of the Wind (eating the accessory slot and two highly valuable resources), they still only match fliers for move and still don't have access to flight, which will give the WL an advantage on many map with obstacles, water, etc.

There would need to be a large number of enemies that Wyverns can't kill in order to offset their advantage of flight. This is absolutely not the case.

To be fair, archers do offer range (along with linked attacks), and in particular solid offence at range, which is also a unique advantage (anyone can use a Brave Bow, but without Bowfaire or Bow Range+ it's not going to be nearly as effective as a Brave Bow or Hunter's Volley used by a dedicated archer). Aside from fliers, I consider archer-types the other class which has a clear, objective use. Mages are also good, of course, again because they provide unique utility. I'm a bit less sold on other physical infantry classes, though. They're fine, but most of them feel like inferior WLs or FKs to me.

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41 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

This is such a bad argument, Just cripple them isn't helpful. You would only swing them to the other side going from OP to trash and useless. Ground units vs Flying each has what they are good at but 3H gives to much freedom. Players will often just use the easiest route.

Losing dismount and canto wouldn’t make fliers useless. They would still have better mobility than most classes.

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1 minute ago, Whisky said:

Losing dismount and canto wouldn’t make fliers useless. They would still have better mobility than most classes.

I didn't say anything about dismount, it should be removed. I was talking about Canto and weakening stats and growths of fliers. If normal horses get canto why wouldn't winged ones?

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Slightly off-topic, but

2 hours ago, ciphertul said:

I didn't say anything about dismount, it should be removed. I was talking about Canto and weakening stats and growths of fliers. If normal horses get canto why wouldn't winged ones?

To be honest, I don't think horses should have Canto. Canto implies the ability to change direction quickly, something horses are notably bad at. I'd rather see horses have high move, while Canto should be on classes like Thief and its promotions, IMO. Gameplaywise, this allows for different types of mobility: horses would have more move, while thieves (etc.) would have more versatility with their movement.

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7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Not really. In general, mounted units have an advantage in these games due to being able to get places sooner. However, certain games make this advantage even more obvious (Genealogy of the Holy War stands out in this regard). On the flipside, armored knights tend to be considered bad because their low movement makes them fall behind; this is especially obvious in the aforementioned Genealogy of the Holy War,  as well as in Binding Blade, where outside of maybe Douglas, all of the armored knights suck. Also, Beast was only a weakness type in Awakening and Fates.

Thank you I see. Now I wonder how to balance between Fly, Ground, Riding classes

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I usually have my units certify for both, then switch them between classes depending on the map. Sometimes it's fun to have Byleth run Gautier Knights and Alert Stance, or Enlightened One and Ordelia Sorcery Co/Nosferatu/Caduceus Staff.

As for WL lacking in killing power, the obvious answer here is to make use of the 2-3 Brave Axes the game throws at you. As long as you can whack things and run away in one turn, WL doesn't want for power at all.

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2 hours ago, ciphertul said:

didn't say anything about dismount, it should be removed. I was talking about Canto and weakening stats and growths of fliers. If normal horses get canto why wouldn't winged ones?

Something something pegasi are actually more closely related to wyverns. How about this: horses keep Canto, but fliers now get Pass instead? Also, their other modifiers absolutely should be nerfed - like they nerfed speed on horseback units, to make up for the good mobility. Nerf Falcon's physical bulk, Wyvern's speed, and take Avo +10 away (give it to... IDK, Swordmaster).

8 hours ago, Bartozio said:

The thing with three houses is that flyers don't really offer any utility outside of combat. There's no rescue mechanic and very few side objectives that don't involve combat. That doesn't make flyers outright bad, but it does mean that if you have bad combat, getting to a certain spot early won't do much if you can't kill the enemies there.

Hard disagree. A Pegasus Knight with a Chest Key is your best possible thief in the Remire Village map. Fliers can Reposition allies aceoss otherwise-impassable terrain. Flight also gives Rallybots unparalleled range in whom they can support. And a strong flier (say, Wyvern Rider Petra) is vital to one-turning the Solon phase of chapter 10, and chapter 11 in general.

Edited by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typo.
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Long past time Canto was turned into a regular skill rather than something all mounted units have innately. As a standard skill it'd be a pretty good one that you'd have to weigh against other good skills.

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3 hours ago, ciphertul said:

I didn't say anything about dismount, it should be removed. I was talking about Canto and weakening stats and growths of fliers. If normal horses get canto why wouldn't winged ones?

'/ = OR', not '/ = &'. I meant remove Canto OR reduce their growths, not remove Canto AND reduce their growths.

 

As for Canto becoming a non-class locked skill, it'd be interesting. Something like Galeforce, but less OP. Depends on how the game is balanced, but it could be good.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Long past time Canto was turned into a regular skill rather than something all mounted units have innately.

Which game was Canto a regular skill in, again?

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Been a while since I played this game, but IIRC, I thought mounted units were fairly well balanced outside of dismounting since their movement advantages were lost over stairs / other Cav hindering terrain and their stats weren't anything to write home about (my Cavs got easily doubled on some of my earlier playthroughs compared to other units). Most of the best Horse Classes were also Master Class, meaning they took a while to get.

Fliers lack a lot of the weaknesses that Cavs have. They don't have any terrain penalties, and I recall their stats being noticeably better too. Their only shortcoming to balance this is a weakness to bows, but Canto makes this a non-issue 99% of the time. 

I think the best way to balance Fliers is to just nerf their movement and give them innate Pass instead of Canto. 

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45 minutes ago, Agro said:

Which game was Canto a regular skill in, again?

Well, none. I didn't say again. The closest would be radiant Dawn where it's displayed on the list of skills and takes up capacity like every other skill, but is locked to and irremovable from mounted units.

30 minutes ago, FoxyGrandpa said:

Been a while since I played this game, but IIRC, I thought mounted units were fairly well balanced outside of dismounting since their movement advantages were lost over stairs / other Cav hindering terrain and their stats weren't anything to write home about (my Cavs got easily doubled on some of my earlier playthroughs compared to other units). Most of the best Horse Classes were also Master Class, meaning they took a while to get.

Fliers lack a lot of the weaknesses that Cavs have. They don't have any terrain penalties, and I recall their stats being noticeably better too. Their only shortcoming to balance this is a weakness to bows, but Canto makes this a non-issue 99% of the time. 

I think the best way to balance Fliers is to just nerf their movement and give them innate Pass instead of Canto. 

I'd also add here that, while Fliers don't get buffs from terrain (which really let's face it, thanks to dismount, means they can't get buffs from terrains while simultaneously moving wherever they want with canto), they get innate avoid +10, which is like really good in a game with such a preference for dodge tanking. Especially when combined with Alert Stance. Having 10 extra avoid all the time is kind of better than sometimes having 20 extra avoid when there happens to be some bushes in the right spot, especially when that's an option a flying unit can easily avail of too should they choose it.

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