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Flying Classes vs Grounded Classes


Whisky
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On 1/8/2021 at 2:09 PM, Marienburg said:

I guess my question for people who spam wyvern lords is do they double reliably? I didn't use any wyverns on my maddening AM run, but the only units that were reliably doubling against all enemies without combat arts were Felix and Ingrid. I imagined most units, especially if they're dudes without darting blow, will have trouble one rounding as wyverns.

There are enough units that can reliable double on maddening by the endgame to make a party if you're looking for them and stick them in fast classes, but it is a small selection of units.  You'd be looking at using Felix, Petra, Ingrid, Leonie, Byleth (Falcon Knight), Catherine, and Yuri (if you have the DLC).  That's enough to make a party when you throw in some mages and archers.

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Wyvern's class bases are also easily applied to any unit that can have a somewhat inconsistent strength growth like any of the house archers (Ashe, Ignatz, Bernie), Cyril, etc. 

Also, If I recall, Jeritza on Crimson Flower HAS Darting Blow as a Flying Budding Talent and can make a good Wyvern Lord when he gets access to Counterattack and his high weapon ranks. If Jeritza can't double through AS checks or if it's a Maddening Swordmaster with Quick Riposte, then he can certainly put a serious dent or even one-round/shot some enemies. 

 

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4 hours ago, SumG said:

There are enough units that can reliable double on maddening by the endgame to make a party if you're looking for them and stick them in fast classes, but it is a small selection of units.  You'd be looking at using Felix, Petra, Ingrid, Leonie, Byleth (Falcon Knight), Catherine, and Yuri (if you have the DLC).  That's enough to make a party when you throw in some mages and archers.

Well that's what I mean, it's not as simple as turning whatever dudes you have into wyverns and being done with it. The way people talk about the wyvern meta they make it sound like you'll always end up with a team of Meladys when you could easily end up with a team of Zeisses.

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1 hour ago, Marienburg said:

Well that's what I mean, it's not as simple as turning whatever dudes you have into wyverns and being done with it. The way people talk about the wyvern meta they make it sound like you'll always end up with a team of Meladys when you could easily end up with a team of Zeisses.

Re: Speed, it's not as though Wyverns are slow. Wyvern Rider gives a +3 Speed modifier, and Wyvern Lord gives +4. Only Falcon Knight and Assassin are strictly faster, with +5. As for growths, Rider doesn't give a Speed modifier (versus +0.20x from Swordmaster and Assassin), whereas Wyvern Lord gives +0.10x).

Let's try comparing Felix going Assassin from level 20 through 40, to going Wyvern Rider 20-30, and Wyvern Lord 30-40. Assassin Felix averages 2 points ahead at level 20, 3 at 25, and 4 at 30 (WR). At promotion to Wyvern Lord, this falls to 3, only reaching a 4-point advantage again by level 40.

So while Wyvern classes aren't the fastest, neither are they very far behind the actual fastest class. The key question is, does that marginal Speed difference allow this unit to reach new doubling thresholds? In some cases, it likely does - but from my Maddening experience, in most cases, there isn't a meaningful difference.

There's the counter-point that Axes are heavier than Swords, thus widening the Speed gap between the two classes. But there are some lighter Axes (Mace, Training Axe), and Weight-3 exists as an offset option. Plus, Wyverns can use Swords, too - in fact, a Wyvern Lord (+4 Str, no Swordfaire) with a physical sword will be just one point of damage behind the Assassin (+0 Str, Swordfaire). Granted, this gap may be widened, if the Assassin has access to a stronger battalion. 

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3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Re: Speed, it's not as though Wyverns are slow. Wyvern Rider gives a +3 Speed modifier, and Wyvern Lord gives +4. Only Falcon Knight and Assassin are strictly faster, with +5. As for growths, Rider doesn't give a Speed modifier (versus +0.20x from Swordmaster and Assassin), whereas Wyvern Lord gives +0.10x).

Let's try comparing Felix going Assassin from level 20 through 40, to going Wyvern Rider 20-30, and Wyvern Lord 30-40. Assassin Felix averages 2 points ahead at level 20, 3 at 25, and 4 at 30 (WR). At promotion to Wyvern Lord, this falls to 3, only reaching a 4-point advantage again by level 40.

So while Wyvern classes aren't the fastest, neither are they very far behind the actual fastest class. The key question is, does that marginal Speed difference allow this unit to reach new doubling thresholds? In some cases, it likely does - but from my Maddening experience, in most cases, there isn't a meaningful difference.

There's the counter-point that Axes are heavier than Swords, thus widening the Speed gap between the two classes. But there are some lighter Axes (Mace, Training Axe), and Weight-3 exists as an offset option. Plus, Wyverns can use Swords, too - in fact, a Wyvern Lord (+4 Str, no Swordfaire) with a physical sword will be just one point of damage behind the Assassin (+0 Str, Swordfaire). Granted, this gap may be widened, if the Assassin has access to a stronger battalion. 

My experience on AM was that the couple of points here and there do add up and in the end do matter because most of the characters end up somewhere near the reliable doubling threshold and need every bit of help they can get to be above it. Bernadetta, Sylvain, Ashe and Dimitri all have "good" 50% growth and decent bases and none of them were doubling except for Dimitri whom I was force feeding speedwings. I wish there was a resource to look up the AS on enemies quickly.

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28 minutes ago, Marienburg said:

I wish there was a resource to look up the AS on enemies quickly.

There is here: https://imgur.com/a/dSnk6C9

Credit to Pewpewblaster

 

29 minutes ago, Marienburg said:

My experience on AM was that the couple of points here and there do add up and in the end do matter because most of the characters end up somewhere near the reliable doubling threshold and need every bit of help they can get to be above it. Bernadetta, Sylvain, Ashe and Dimitri all have "good" 50% growth and decent bases and none of them were doubling except for Dimitri whom I was force feeding speedwings.

Bernadetta has Vengeance. Sylvain has Swift Strikes. Dimitri has his Vantage/Wrath combo. No of these units need to double to be good as a Wyvern. Well there’s Ashe, but he’s generally considered one of the worst units. The fast units like females with Darting Blow are able to double a lot of enemies pretty well, and like I said earlier, they need to be weaker than other classes in order to be considered not outright superior.

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39 minutes ago, Whisky said:

There is here: https://imgur.com/a/dSnk6C9

Credit to Pewpewblaster

Bernadetta has Vengeance. Sylvain has Swift Strikes. Dimitri has his Vantage/Wrath combo. No of these units need to double to be good as a Wyvern. Well there’s Ashe, but he’s generally considered one of the worst units. The fast units like females with Darting Blow are able to double a lot of enemies pretty well, and like I said earlier, they need to be weaker than other classes in order to be considered not outright superior.

Perfect, thanks for the link. 

This does go to show how important combat arts are for physical characters, specifically male ones. While it's evident with the brawlers and archers in general, I think the most important case is male byleth. Without any good combat arts of his own, male byleth has speed problems and I imagine would be pretty mediocre as a wyvern, whereas going grappler/war master solves most of his problems.

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There's also https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XH_ap5DAw6JhbSI8TIzuaNl5GP_XDfxCUlqnM_8zdnQ/edit#gid=552100566 if you prefer your info in spreadsheet form to images.

I find Darting Blow very important for maintaining doubling in Maddening... units like Felix who could double everything on Hard can struggle a bit on Maddening without it, although I imagine you can make it up with a f

2 hours ago, Marienburg said:

Bernadetta, Sylvain, Ashe and Dimitri all have "good" 50% growth and decent bases and none of them were doubling except for Dimitri whom I was force feeding speedwings.

Bernadetta's 7 base is a bit on the low side, on top of her poor strength. And none of the others can get Darting Blow. I agree that this group is all a bit shaky for doubling. Units like Petra, Ingrid, Leonie, and Catherine with Darting Blow are much more reliable... enough to double all but the very fastest enemies like Swordmasters and Assassins who are usually squishy enough to die to a brave weapon, brave combat art, magic combat art, etc.

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2 minutes ago, Marienburg said:

Perfect, thanks for the link. 

This does go to show how important combat arts are for physical characters, specifically male ones. While it's evident with the brawlers and archers in general, I think the most important case is male byleth. Without any good combat arts of his own, male byleth has speed problems and I imagine would be pretty mediocre as a wyvern, whereas going grappler/war master solves most of his problems.

I was actually considering doing Male Byleth for the Blue Lions route and seeing if War Master would be a good fit for him. I'm currently on my Golden Deer run with Female Byleth and I'm really liking her as a Falcon Knight.

Is male Byleth inferior to female Byleth in that regard? Or can War Master Byleth be a viable option on maddening? Crit + 20 can be very strong but Avoid +10 + Alert Stance+ is such a potent combo.

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14 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

There's also https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XH_ap5DAw6JhbSI8TIzuaNl5GP_XDfxCUlqnM_8zdnQ/edit#gid=552100566 if you prefer your info in spreadsheet form to images.

I find Darting Blow very important for maintaining doubling in Maddening... units like Felix who could double everything on Hard can struggle a bit on Maddening without it, although I imagine you can make it up with a f

Bernadetta's 7 base is a bit on the low side, on top of her poor strength. And none of the others can get Darting Blow. I agree that this group is all a bit shaky for doubling. Units like Petra, Ingrid, Leonie, and Catherine with Darting Blow are much more reliable... enough to double all but the very fastest enemies like Swordmasters and Assassins who are usually squishy enough to die to a brave weapon, brave combat art, magic combat art, etc.

In my experience nothing except accuracy even matters on Bernadetta, as I:m constantly using her to launch Encloser with a training bow to effectively enutralize the most dangerous threat of the turn. Course maybe that:s just my play style. Sometimes I do end up using encloser on a unit that I have enough spare man power to take out anyway. Still Bernies value to me is way more reliant on Encloser than her ability to kill things.

Edited by Jotari
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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

In my experience nothing except accuracy even matters on Bernadetta, as I:m constantly using her to launch Encloser with a training bow to effectively enutralize the most dangerous threat of the turn. Course maybe that:s just my play style. Sometimes I do end up using encloser on a unit that I have enough spare man power to take out anyway. Still Bernies value to me is way more reliant on Encloser than her ability to kill things.

I like using encloser myself. She's my bow knight on my Verdant Wind maddening route. Her and Claude can both use it so that will help me keep things from getting dicey

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I also like Encloser, but why stop an enemy from moving for a turn when you could stop them from moving permanently? Vengeance Bernadetta is super strong. I only discovered this recently but I’m really impressed by it. Encloser still has more range though, especially if you make her a Bow Knight. She may also be pretty good at killing things as a Sniper since Hunter’s Volley is a good CA.

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1 minute ago, Whisky said:

I also like Encloser, but why stop an enemy from moving for a turn when you could stop them from moving permanently? Vengeance Bernadetta is super strong. I only discovered this recently but I’m really impressed by it. Encloser still has more range though, especially if you make her a Bow Knight. She may also be pretty good at killing things as a Sniper since Hunter’s Volley is a good CA.

Vengance would synergize well with her personal skill, but the question then is how do you reliably damage Bernadetta without getting her killed? Shes not really tanky enough to leave herself open to an attack on enemy phase, though I suppose you cna have her run up and hit something with a sword to eat a safe counter attack on player phase. Course the original point here is about her ability to double, my counter point being she doesn:t really need to double if your using encloser. For the question of why stun something when you can kill it, killing is of course better, but the advantage of stunning some one is that they are neutralized for enemy phase. So the question is less why would you stun instead of kill, and more can Bernadetta be used to kill the strongest enemy your currently up against? Because if the answers no, then its probably better to stun that one powerful enemy and mop up all the scrubs before taking them out on the next turn. Monsters are the obvious goto example here. She also does particularly well against them as she can break all several of the barriers while the monster never has any targets to recover them leaving your army free to one turn the monster when everything else has been taken care of.

I guess in other words, speed isn:t always the most important factor when you have other options to consider. I guess in that same vein gambits would be a worthy topic for the conversation, though considering they can only be used once or twice a map they don:t have nearly anthing in the same vein of staying power as Encloser.

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49 minutes ago, Whisky said:

I also like Encloser, but why stop an enemy from moving for a turn when you could stop them from moving permanently? Vengeance Bernadetta is super strong. I only discovered this recently but I’m really impressed by it. Encloser still has more range though, especially if you make her a Bow Knight. She may also be pretty good at killing things as a Sniper since Hunter’s Volley is a good CA.

Dedue's Vengeance is also something that people sleep on.

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@Jotari

I’m trying out Vengeance on Bernadetta for the first time in my current playthrough, so I’m no expert on the strategy. So far I’ve been able to pick which enemies to have her fight in order to get her weakened without dying. She doesn’t get ORKO by most enemies. I’m on Ch 6. Once you get her damaged enough, she consistently one shots every enemy, including the Death Knight. I don’t know how well this will work going into the time skip.

I have heard of a couple strategies for getting her injured without dying. Giving her a Guard adjutant apparently prevent her from getting ORKOed, leaving her at 1 HP instead. And of course the Miracle Gambit (Blessing I think it’s called?) does the same thing.

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12 minutes ago, Whisky said:

I have heard of a couple strategies for getting her injured without dying. Giving her a Guard adjutant apparently prevent her from getting ORKOed, leaving her at 1 HP instead. And of course the Miracle Gambit (Blessing I think it’s called?) does the same thing.

Yeah, I generally used one or the other of these on my Vengeance Paladin Bernadetta. Another potential tool is the Devil Sword or Axe; although, she'll have to train in the weapon type somewhat. I found Devil Weapons great for setting up my dodgetank Ingrid build.

2 hours ago, Marienburg said:

This does go to show how important combat arts are for physical characters, specifically male ones. While it's evident with the brawlers and archers in general, I think the most important case is male byleth. Without any good combat arts of his own, male byleth has speed problems and I imagine would be pretty mediocre as a wyvern, whereas going grappler/war master solves most of his problems.

Depends on how you view mediocre, and what you see as Byleth's problems. Their proficiencies don't lend themselves to wyvern classes, but they do have a great strength stat for raw damage. And if you view mobility as an issue, you can do no better. I tried female Byleth as a Falcon Knight on CF Hard, and was quite satisfied. That said, I haven't made them a Wyvern before on NG, so that could pan out differently.

Re: Combat Arts, it's variable. Felix is the standout "we don't need no stinkin' combat arts" unit, with how his Crest only activates on regular attacks. He can be great in classes like Assassin, War Master, or Wyvern Lord, just riding off his ability to hit fast and hard (and brave, say, with Thunderbrand or Gauntlets). And Dimitri and Balthus both offer compelling enemy-phase builds (with Batt. Wrath + Batt. Vantage, and Wrath + Vantage + King-of-Grappling, respectively). Granted, though, they may be the exceptions that peove the rule, so to speak.

45 minutes ago, Marienburg said:

Dedue's Vengeance is also something that people sleep on.

I imagine his weakness in Riding scares people away from Lance-oriented builds, since he only gets Lancefaire as a Paladin or Great Knight. For my part, I really liked how he performed as a War Master with One-Two Punch. And that's without even accounting for his most iconic build - slap a suit of armor on him, and let him take physical abuse all enemy phase. But hey, maybe I'll force Dedue to overcome his fear of horses next time.

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32 minutes ago, Whisky said:

@Jotari

I’m trying out Vengeance on Bernadetta for the first time in my current playthrough, so I’m no expert on the strategy. So far I’ve been able to pick which enemies to have her fight in order to get her weakened without dying. She doesn’t get ORKO by most enemies. I’m on Ch 6. Once you get her damaged enough, she consistently one shots every enemy, including the Death Knight. I don’t know how well this will work going into the time skip.

I have heard of a couple strategies for getting her injured without dying. Giving her a Guard adjutant apparently prevent her from getting ORKOed, leaving her at 1 HP instead. And of course the Miracle Gambit (Blessing I think it’s called?) does the same thing.

Blessing would definitely do the trick. That reminds me that I did sometimes use impregnable wall on her so she could take some damage to activate persecition complex.

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57 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Blessing would definitely do the trick. That reminds me that I did sometimes use impregnable wall on her so she could take some damage to activate persecition complex.

I love Impregnable Wall. That skill comes in clutch in so many situations.

 

59 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I imagine his weakness in Riding scares people away from Lance-oriented builds, since he only gets Lancefaire as a Paladin or Great Knight. For my part, I really liked how he performed as a War Master with One-Two Punch. And that's without even accounting for his most iconic build - slap a suit of armor on him, and let him take physical abuse all enemy phase. But hey, maybe I'll force Dedue to overcome his fear of horses next time.

It’s definitely possible to overcome the Riding weakness, though it takes more investment. Even if you want to make him an Armor Knight, you’ll want to train his Riding to make him a Great Knight eventually. Or you can train his other weakness, Flying, and make him a Wyvern Rider. Vengeance is so strong that I don’t know if he needs Lance Faire, especially if he masters Death Blow first which is easy for him to do. WarMaster/Grappler definitely have great killing power, but less mobility than the mounted classes, particularly Wyvern.

Edited by Whisky
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I can:t say I:ve ever tried a vengance build with either of them, but of the two vengance Bernadetta looks more attractive to me. Having a unit in low health that can take advantage by attacking from afar just sounds like the safer option than one who:s front lining. Plus you lose Dedue:s rather useful defense boost on his personal skill. Course Dedue is also always working with the handicap of being exclusive to one route that he winds up missing half of the time skip for.

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For Bernie, if you’re going for Vengeance builds, I usually tend to give her lance prowess, hit +20, death blow (or if you don’t want to level up her axe bane then strength +2.), pass, and HP + 5. Pass you could do without but I like having it on so she can slip pass enemies that would otherwise hinder her movement because they are in the way. I like HP + 5 on her because it not only allows her to ensure that she lives at least one hit, but having more vengeance damage is always a plus.

Guard adjutants or Blessing works wonders with this set as long as you’re luring in one enemy and the rest is out of her range. From there she can play hit and run.

Encloser on the other hand can be useful where vengeance is not. Freezing enemies in place as a Bow Knight is always a useful strategy since it helps you from getting to overwhelming.

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20 hours ago, Marienburg said:

Well that's what I mean, it's not as simple as turning whatever dudes you have into wyverns and being done with it. The way people talk about the wyvern meta they make it sound like you'll always end up with a team of Meladys when you could easily end up with a team of Zeisses.

I think it's fair to say that the meme-response of throw a unit into Wyvern Lord to make them awesome is not exactly accurate.  But I do think there is something to the idea that many melee units have their best possible performance in Wyvern Lord.  The fact of the matter is that the class bonuses for Wyvern Lord are some of the most enticing in the game, the class is tied for the highest mobility in the game, and has flying utility and Canto.  The only downsides to the class are the weapon requirements (only a problem with an axe or flying bane) and a vulnerability to bows (shared by all fliers).

I think a better way to phrase what happens in Maddening is "many units have their best possible performance in Wyvern Lord, but sometimes that isn't even enough".  Units like Sylvain or Hilda or Edelgard are fantastic on lower difficulties, but lack the inherent speed growth to stay competitive into the endgame on Maddening.  Now matter what class you stick them in, they will have this problem.  Wyvern Lord will give them more strength, speed, and mobility than any other class they have access to, allowing them to be as competitive as possible.  But it can only go so far.

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51 minutes ago, SumG said:

I think a better way to phrase what happens in Maddening is "many units have their best possible performance in Wyvern Lord, but sometimes that isn't even enough".  Units like Sylvain or Hilda or Edelgard are fantastic on lower difficulties, but lack the inherent speed growth to stay competitive into the endgame on Maddening.  Now matter what class you stick them in, they will have this problem.  Wyvern Lord will give them more strength, speed, and mobility than any other class they have access to, allowing them to be as competitive as possible.  But it can only go so far.

Well, no, Hilda and Edelgard do fine as wyverns because of darting blow and Sylvain does well because of swift strikes. For them wyverns is the best choice, and for Hilda and Edelgard arguably the only choice. The heart of the issue is with male physical units that don't have a good combat art or stupid speed growths, so male byleth, caspar, ashe, ignatz, caspar, alois and balthus. Putting them in Wyvern only exacerbates their speed problems, whereas putting them in sniper or brawler fixes them completely.

Edited by Marienburg
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19 hours ago, Whisky said:

I love Impregnable Wall. That skill comes in clutch in so many situations.

 

It’s definitely possible to overcome the Riding weakness, though it takes more investment. Even if you want to make him an Armor Knight, you’ll want to train his Riding to make him a Great Knight eventually. Or you can train his other weakness, Flying, and make him a Wyvern Rider. Vengeance is so strong that I don’t know if he needs Lance Faire, especially if he masters Death Blow first which is easy for him to do. WarMaster/Grappler definitely have great killing power, but less mobility than the mounted classes, particularly Wyvern.

That part is debatable, as Great Knight isn't a strict upgrade from Fortress Knight. The class loses a bit of physical bulk, and while its Speed improves, forgoing innate Weight-5 tends to undermine this. Lancefaire is nice, but if you're already training in Lances and Riding, Paladin has better movement and (hilariously) Strength than Great Knight. So GK is kind of a compromise class - losing some bulk from Fortress, and some move from Paladin. That said, I have used the class on Gilbert and Balthus, and got decent mileage out of it.

And yeah, you definitely don't need Lancefaire to do good damage with Vengeance (or Swift Strikes). But some people see Faires as proscribing the use of other weapon types within a given class.

2 hours ago, Agro said:

Seriously, do none of you use Brave weapons or something?

The Brave Axe is *chef's kiss* on a Wyvern Lord, and in the hands of anyone with competent Strength and Death Blow, leaves most targets dead. That said, Brave Weapons and the Wootz Steel to forge them are in somewhat limited supply. Their high Weight stats also mean they're rarely what you want to be left holding on enemy phase. They're good tools, but you'll be hard-pressed to deck more than a few units out with them, and you'll want other options for EP and combat arts.

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The thing about brave weapons is that you don't need to use them all the time. Let's take your typical Wyvern Lord, ignoring the ones with unique combat arts for a moment.

Find something you can double? Hit it twice with Silver Axe+ or an armourslayer of some sort (Hammer, Axe of Zoltan). Since your attack is ridiculous, whatever you hit probably just got one-rounded (notably, many other physical builds struggle with armours by comparison).

Can't double? Try to OHKO it with a high-atk combat art (Silver Axe Monster Breaker/Helm Splitter, Apocalyptic Flame, Raging Storm). Not good enough? Hit it with a Brave Axe.

Facing a monster with huge HP but shaky speed? Quad it with a brave weapon, preferably whichever one it's weak to since almost all monsters are weak to one of 'em. The few fast monsters are often frail enough to die a mere weakness-hitting brave weapon's two hits.

Brave weapons are just one tool in the toolbox, but they help ensure that wyverns have options to ORKO their foes, which removes the supposed advantage of infantry classes, ensuring their position as top of the pack for FE3H classes.

EDIT: And my point, of course, is that since you don't need to fall back on brave for every combat, that you have more than enough uses of brave weapons to beat the game with even if you're using them on a substantial number of people. You can buy 4 in the store, get 2-3 more depending on route, 1-2 special braved weapons (Thunderbrand and Inexhaustible), and should get enough Wootz Steel from Sothis/Raphignatz/Marianne paralogues to repair them as much as you want and even forge some plus versions for your most valuable attackers. Maybe they're a bit more limited on a no-paralogue or no-recruitment run, I guess; I tend not to do those.

8 hours ago, SumG said:

I think a better way to phrase what happens in Maddening is "many units have their best possible performance in Wyvern Lord, but sometimes that isn't even enough".  Units like Sylvain or Hilda or Edelgard are fantastic on lower difficulties, but lack the inherent speed growth to stay competitive into the endgame on Maddening.  Now matter what class you stick them in, they will have this problem.  Wyvern Lord will give them more strength, speed, and mobility than any other class they have access to, allowing them to be as competitive as possible.  But it can only go so far.

Wyvern Edelgard is probably the best unit in the game. Hilda and Sylvain are definitely solid; they still do very well following the flowchart above (with Sylvain having the added benefit of Swift Strikes access especially with Spear of Assal/Horseslayer, while Hilda has an unusually good OHKO option with her relic). Sylvain might be able to do a bit more damage as a Paladin than a Wyvern Lord, but I dunno that it's worth the loss of flight.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
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