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Special Heroes - Dark Desert Rituals

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1 hour ago, Hilda said:

From which game is the song that plays during the Intro of the 1. Chapter?

You mean the track playing while M!Kris and Katarina are talking before the first paralogue map?


I think the track is from FE12 - it's called "Going Forward" (at least that's the English title according to the in-game Concert House in FEH). That said, I haven't played FE12, so I can't say for sure when/where it plays in FE12 though (or if there are alt variations of the track).

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6 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

Yeah, I'm aware that they do have plenty of common ground that goes well beyond their mutual love for performing. Too bad Lene will almost certainly not show up in Dorothea's eventual Forging Bonds because IS loves limiting the Three Houses ones (the CYL4 one being the only exception) to just the Askr trio and the brick wall they call a summoner.

That said, I still would've never thought that they'd make this an actual Harmonized unit because Dorothea is still without a base version and Lene, as I already brought up, is exceptionally unpopular for a character with an alt (Darros is the only character with an alt who has less CYL votes [557] than Lene).

Watch how Dorothea's forging bonds will just be her answering Fjorm's questions or something boring with Fjorm. The real question on my mind is "isn't she supposed to have died two years ago?" Sometimes I get hope for Forging Bonds because you do get an entertaining one (Phina's comes to mind), but as soon as I see the Askr Trio and/or Fjorm it's a snoozefest. I really hope they bring in Lene just to tie it back, and also develop Lene as well since Forging Bonds wasn't a thing when she came out.

It's definitely weird timing for them. If you were to tell me they would be harmonized heroes together, I'd assume it would be late 2021 or even next year. I don't think CYL is the most accurate representation of a character's popularity. Lene was relatively obscure, even for Genealogy standards prior to her OG Heroes release. She didn't have a big fanbase before and I think everyone knows Lene will most likely never win CYL anyways. Since she's in, there isn't much of a push to vote for her. However, if you look at the banner trailer she's in, it has a really high number of views, one of the highest out of all banner trailers. Rn I'm trying to find sales figures of 2018 banners because Lene may have been a part of a high grossing banner. If her banner did earn a lot more money than most banners, IS has reason to think that Ares, Ishtar, and Lene may be marketable characters. Or someone on the Heroes dev team just really likes Lene. It's only a matter of time before Ares gets an alt anyways. If he's a harmonic hero, it would be a waste not to pair him with the Black Knight, since that's also a title Ares has.

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Welp 400 orbs went down the drain, but I did get my Tharja. Also a Dorothea/Lene and two 5* Raphs, plus a bunch of pity breaks like B!Alm, Ced, Jill and so on. Overall I'm satisfied.

I certainly hope the valentine banner doesn't end up having anyone I really like (watch Aversa/Kronya alt happen NOW)

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23 hours ago, Mercakete said:

Nope. Inverse. I assume that there are worshippers of Grima from various demographics. What I meant was that things that are clearly Grimleal in design (that is, it uses symbols of that faith) are called "Plegian," as though they are not faith-related, but nationality-related. Just like how not all Japanese people are Shintoists (though a great many at least noncommittally are), but Shintoism is a Japanese faith (and there are others who follow it from outside of Japan), not all Plegians are Grimleal, and their symbols and such should be appropriately labeled. The weapons and attire (and celebration on the whole, id it's "dark rituals") are Grimleal, not Plegian.

@Sunwoo

Did Validar take over after Gangrel? I was under the impression that he was never a king, but was simply a high priest of the Grimleal faith.

Art of Awakening claims Gangrel turned Plegia into a Grimleal theocracy and that he was working closely with Validar from the beginning.

Several times in Awakening its claimed Plegians are distinct from Grimleal and that most people worship other gods.

On 1/17/2021 at 5:49 PM, Sunwoo said:

It's possible that the Grimleal religion is just forced upon the people by the state (since Validar is king) and people don't have a choice but to worship it.

Thats what the Art of Awakening and several parts of Awakening claim. There's mentions of Grimleal inquisitions forcing people to join the religion or be killed, thus getting more people to be sacrificed.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Art of Awakening claims Gangrel turned Plegia into a Grimleal theocracy and that he was working closely with Validar from the beginning.

Several times in Awakening its claimed Plegians are distinct from Grimleal and that most people worship other gods.

That's a bit confusing, then. A theocracy has a deity as its supreme governing force, but Plegia distinctly had a king, which would make it a monarchy. Maybe it was a monarchy in transition to becoming a theocracy until Gangrel left the picture, after which it became a theocracy.

Anyway, I don't know if your wording is agreeing with what you meant since your wording agrees with my own supposition here: "Plegians are distinct from Grimleal and that most people worship other gods." Did you mean "Plegians are distinct as Grimleal and that most other people worship other gods."? And even if "most" is used here, that doesn't mean that someone from, say, Valm who wanted to become Grimleal would be turned away, which is what I was saying. I'm sure there's the odd person from somewhere else here and there who jumped on the zealot train, even if there aren't many of them. This is because a faith and a nation are distinct (separately classified) even if they tend to run parallel (as is the case for Plegia.)

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1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

That's a bit confusing, then. A theocracy has a deity as its supreme governing force, but Plegia distinctly had a king, which would make it a monarchy. Maybe it was a monarchy in transition to becoming a theocracy until Gangrel left the picture, after which it became a theocracy.

Anyway, I don't know if your wording is agreeing with what you meant since your wording agrees with my own supposition here: "Plegians are distinct from Grimleal and that most people worship other gods." Did you mean "Plegians are distinct as Grimleal and that most other people worship other gods."? And even if "most" is used here, that doesn't mean that someone from, say, Valm who wanted to become Grimleal would be turned away, which is what I was saying. I'm sure there's the odd person from somewhere else here and there who jumped on the zealot train, even if there aren't many of them. This is because a faith and a nation are distinct (separately classified) even if they tend to run parallel (as is the case for Plegia.)

Basically it says Gangrel used his position to turn Plegia into Theocracy to Grima thus allowing the Grimleal to force people to join the religion.

I'm agreeing with you, I'm saying the game and art book at several points say the average Plegian doesn't worship Grima. So Plegians aren't Grimleal by default, even if most, but not all, Grimleal are Plegian

There are definitely Grimleal in Valm, Excellus is identified as one.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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5 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Watch how Dorothea's forging bonds will just be her answering Fjorm's questions or something boring with Fjorm. The real question on my mind is "isn't she supposed to have died two years ago?" Sometimes I get hope for Forging Bonds because you do get an entertaining one (Phina's comes to mind), but as soon as I see the Askr Trio and/or Fjorm it's a snoozefest. I really hope they bring in Lene just to tie it back, and also develop Lene as well since Forging Bonds wasn't a thing when she came out.

That's not entirely fair. Lysithia's FB convo (featuring Fjorm and, by the way, explaining why she hasn't died yet), Tibarn's FB convo (featuring Alfonse), and Midori's FB (featuring Eir, which then was even expanded upon with Lena's FB) were all very good. True, sometimes the writing goes much more shallow than it could, but that doesn't mean that all Fjorm/Askr trio FB features are boring by default.

 

@Emperor Hardin

Ah, okay. Thanks. 🙂

 

@May

I took some time to think about it and I agree with you: Plegian Kris' default pose is definitely different in an appealing way, and I do hope that we see more like it. His standard art specifically, though...since the hips are so thoroughly obscured, it winds up being a bit hard to tell if the pose is natural or not (it would be easier to tell with clearer indications on which way they're turning), and I'm not sure if his neck should realistically be able to turn that far, but it (the pose on the whole) seems okay, even taking these into consideration.

Edited by Mercakete

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2 hours ago, Mercakete said:

That's a bit confusing, then. A theocracy has a deity as its supreme governing force, but Plegia distinctly had a king, which would make it a monarchy. Maybe it was a monarchy in transition to becoming a theocracy until Gangrel left the picture, after which it became a theocracy.

Theocracy and monarchy are not mutually exclusive to each other, and most monarchies are entwined with theocracy, and royalty often relied on the skills, influence, and support of the religious establishment. Many absolute monarchies in Europe in the past were justified by the king's divine right to rule, i.e.: cause God says so. Similarly in East Asia, China's version is the Mandate of Heaven, and it has also been used as justification by neighboring countries as well such as Vietnam and Korea. Japan's imperial family claimed to be direct descendents of the gods, so it is an even stronger claim to rule (Mandate of Heaven can be revoked by the gods, and rebellions are justified as long as they are successful, i.e.: if successful, it means the gods has passed the Mandate on to the rebellion; in contrast, if you oppose the Japanese imperial family, you are directly challenging the gods themselves).

Edited by XRay

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2 hours ago, Mercakete said:

That's not entirely fair. Lysithia's FB convo (featuring Fjorm and, by the way, explaining why she hasn't died yet), Tibarn's FB convo (featuring Alfonse), and Midori's FB (featuring Eir, which then was even expanded upon with Lena's FB) were all very good. True, sometimes the writing goes much more shallow than it could, but that doesn't mean that all Fjorm/Askr trio FB features are boring by default.

I actually had no problem with any FB with Eir in it. Her character is just passive enough to highlight the other character. I prefer FBs that highlight the new character in question's personality more.

I'll look up Lysithea's, Tibarn's, Midori's, and Lena's FB when I have the time then. Thanks for the recommendation.

Oh I did like one that featured Fjorm, which was Fiora's. Not because of what Fjorm said or did, but because of how the writers played with Fiora's to-the-book personality.

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

Theocracy and monarchy are not mutually exclusive to each other, and most monarchies are entwined with theocracy, and royalty often relied on the skills, influence, and support of the religious establishment. Many absolute monarchies in Europe in the past were justified by the king's divine right to rule, i.e.: cause God says so. Similarly in East Asia, China's version is the Mandate of Heaven, and it has also been used as justification by neighboring countries as well such as Vietnam and Korea. Japan's imperial family claimed to be direct descendents of the gods, so it is an even stronger claim to rule (Mandate of Heaven can be revoked by the gods, and rebellions are justified as long as they are successful, i.e.: if successful, it means the gods has passed the Mandate on to the rebellion; in contrast, if you oppose the Japanese imperial family, you are directly challenging the gods themselves).

Just because religion has a strong influence in the ruling powers does not mean that it's a theocracy. A theocracy is governed solely by the deities/religions rulers. For example, before Israel had its first king, it was a theocracy, ruled only by God, who communicated with the people through the religious leaders. There was no other authority ruling them.

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32 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Just because religion has a strong influence in the ruling powers does not mean that it's a theocracy. A theocracy is governed solely by the deities/religions rulers. For example, before Israel had its first king, it was a theocracy, ruled only by God, who communicated with the people through the religious leaders. There was no other authority ruling them.

It is not as clear cut as you make it out to be and theocracy and monarchy are definitely not mutually exclusive categories. Pharaohs were priest kings. The Turkish sultan was the de facto religious leader of almost all muslims. The British monarch is the head of the Church of England. The Japanese imperial family claims divine descent. And all these religious leaders are also all monarchs.

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15 minutes ago, XRay said:

It is not as clear cut as you make it out to be and theocracy and monarchy are definitely not mutually exclusive categories. Pharaohs were priest kings. The Turkish sultan was the de facto religious leader of almost all muslims. The British monarch is the head of the Church of England. The Japanese imperial family claims divine descent. And all these religious leaders are also all monarchs.

Even if they claim divinity, would they really be considered religious leaders? That is, those responsible for the spiritual wellbeing of those under them, or would that be the station of their respective priests? I was under the impression that such people were less religious leaders and more religious devouts, or in extreme cases, figureheads, whose time was too occupied with matters of state to mind matters of leadership in sect (barring, of course, certain rituals and holy days.)

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1 minute ago, Mercakete said:

Even if they claim divinity, would they really be considered religious leaders? That is, those responsible for the spiritual wellbeing of those under them, or would that be the station of their respective priests? I was under the impression that such people were less religious leaders and more religious devouts, or in extreme cases, figureheads, whose time was too occupied with matters of state to mind matters of leadership in sect (barring, of course, certain rituals and holy days.)

I think they are classified as religious leaders. Pharaohs were worshipped, and the sultan is considered the leader of all muslims. The British monarch and the Japanese imperial family seems a lot more hands off on the religious stuff though, but I would still consider them to be religious leaders based on the role they play and their significance.

Even for religious leaders like the Pope, political and day to day matters probably dominate their schedules, and religious tasks are often offloaded to other people outside of big rituals and ceremonies. I do not see any high ranking bishops, let alone the pope, run around doing exorcisms or pronouncing couples as spouses. 

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7 minutes ago, XRay said:

I think they are classified as religious leaders. Pharaohs were worshipped, and the sultan is considered the leader of all muslims. The British monarch and the Japanese imperial family seems a lot more hands off on the religious stuff though, but I would still consider them to be religious leaders based on the role they play and their significance.

Even for religious leaders like the Pope, political and day to day matters probably dominate their schedules, and religious tasks are often offloaded to other people outside of big rituals and ceremonies. I do not see any high ranking bishops, let alone the pope, run around doing exorcisms or pronouncing couples as spouses. 

Here's the trick, though: how, then, are theocracies defined? Is it that the country's governing structure is the religion? Is it that the deity/pantheon is the one ruling them? Is the authority the deity, or the religions leaders? Religion has been a part of human society since time immemorial, including groups' leaders. Does that mean every governing system is a theocracy unless they're all atheists? And even then, couldn't atheism be considered its own religion?

The more you nuance like that, the muddier it gets.

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1 minute ago, Mercakete said:

The more you nuance like that, the muddier it gets.

That is kind of the point. There is no defining line. It is spectrum, with some leaders leaning more towards the religious side and some more towards the secular side.

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

That is kind of the point. There is no defining line. It is spectrum, with some leaders leaning more towards the religious side and some more towards the secular side.

I don't think it is, just like how a monarchy or a democracy is clearly defined as a way to do government. I think your definition of "includes religion in ruling" is too lax. That said, since we have different positions on how the term "theocracy" is defined, I think that we simply fundamentally cannot agree. And that's okay. We at least have an understanding of each other's points of view on the subject, and talked about it with civility, so I'd say that it's a win for both of us. ^_^

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2 hours ago, Mercakete said:

I don't think it is, just like how a monarchy or a democracy is clearly defined as a way to do government. I think your definition of "includes religion in ruling" is too lax. That said, since we have different positions on how the term "theocracy" is defined, I think that we simply fundamentally cannot agree. And that's okay. We at least have an understanding of each other's points of view on the subject, and talked about it with civility, so I'd say that it's a win for both of us. ^_^

Just because something is clearly defined does not mean they are mutually exclusive, and I have cited multiple real world examples showing that. I highly doubt any historian is going to disagree with me that the Ottoman Empire was both a monarchy and a theocracy at the same time, and the leader is undoubtedly both the emperor of the Turkish empire and the caliph of almost all muslims. Maybe Japan and Britain are debatable as theocracies, but the Ottoman Empire certainly is not up for debate as a caliphate, and I highly doubt most people and historians would not classify ancient Egyptian dynasties as both theocratic and monarchic in nature.

Monarchy and democracy also can be on a spectrum, and is most definitely not mutually exclusive with plenty of modern day examples. The current United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy, and no one doubts it is also a democracy, and just because it is a democracy, no one doubts it is a monarchy either; and the same can be said for Japan right now. Even in the past, the Holy Roman Empire have elected emperors for example, and it is not your typical monarchy.

Capitalism and communism are not mutually exclusive categories either, and like most political "isms", many countries are on a sliding scale between those two economic "isms". Sexual orientation also is not mutually exclusive, and some people can be both heterosexual and homosexual at the same time, hence the term bisexual for them, and many bisexuals may lean one way more than the other. And for an even better example, some purples are almost red while others are almost blue, and labelling a purple as red or blue is just as valid as labelling it as purple. A lot of categories are not clear cut and mutually exclusive, and fuzzy boundaries and muddiness is the norm for a lot of things.

Edited by XRay

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4 hours ago, XRay said:

I think they are classified as religious leaders. Pharaohs were worshipped, and the sultan is considered the leader of all muslims. The British monarch and the Japanese imperial family seems a lot more hands off on the religious stuff though, but I would still consider them to be religious leaders based on the role they play and their significance.

"I conclude then this point touching upon the power of kings with this axiom of divinity, That as to dispute what God may do is blasphemy … so it is sedition to dispute what a king may do."
– King James I (of England, also known as James VI of Scotland)

Just throwing in a quote I've found cited in one video game I've been playing. It pops when up you unlock the Monarchy government in said game. The game's Wikipedia-esque entry on Theocracy is as follows.:

Spoiler

“As God Wills” is the mantra for a theocracy, whatever the religion. A theocracy is, simply, a form of government in which some deity is the immediate authority, usually personified by human representative(s) who interprets the “Word” for the common folk. In a pure theocracy the civil leader has a direct connection to God – Moses for the Israelites, Muhammed for the Arabs, Joseph Smith for Deseret, the Pope for Vatican City, the Ayatollah for the Islamic Republic of Iran. However, most of civilization’s examples of “rule by God” are in fact quasi-theocracies, in which the ruler is a demi-god or can claim a divine commission to rule. In such, the notion of separation of church and state is a heresy. And everyone knows what happens to heretics.

-But don't take said game too seriously, the alternative quote when unlocking Monarchy is this:

"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government … You can’t expect to wield supreme power just ‘cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
– Monty Python 

 

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On 1/18/2021 at 5:04 AM, Mercakete said:

Nope. Inverse. I assume that there are worshippers of Grima from various demographics. What I meant was that things that are clearly Grimleal in design (that is, it uses symbols of that faith) are called "Plegian," as though they are not faith-related, but nationality-related. Just like how not all Japanese people are Shintoists (though a great many at least noncommittally are), but Shintoism is a Japanese faith (and there are others who follow it from outside of Japan), not all Plegians are Grimleal, and their symbols and such should be appropriately labeled. The weapons and attire (and celebration on the whole, id it's "dark rituals") are Grimleal, not Plegian.

Ah, my bad! Thanks! I know how you feel though 🙂

On 1/18/2021 at 6:12 AM, Mercakete said:

and I think they take away from the beautiful, flowing fabrics used here. They could have still used the mesh/nylon, too, without making it...the main fabric.

I agree with this part though: in isolation, the color and arrangement of the Grimleal attire could be really pretty!

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Dorothea is going to be amazing for Legendary Edelgard. Being able to give her 2 extra actions is pretty big.

Also Felix demands that bow from Raphael if only for collection. The Solo condition is a bit tricky for armors like him but it's still really good. I find it better that spendthrift in general but for Felix I think that Brave now is the superior bow. Perhaps I could give it to a potential Norne project. 

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14 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Ah, my bad! Thanks! I know how you feel though 🙂

I agree with this part though: in isolation, the color and arrangement of the Grimleal attire could be really pretty!

No prob. 🙂 And yeah, I know, right? I don't think IS will rerun this banner (sad, since there are some characters who could rock it/some ways to use the theme in fun ways), but they may spotlight another culture's garb sometime. Hoshido comes to mind, but I think people think that anything kimono-esque is already Hoshidan as well as the same as anything else kimono-esque. Hoshido has some distinct and interesting patterns they follow, though, besides just "kimono." (And even then, there are several different kinds of "kimono." In quotes because, for example, yukata aren't actually kimono.)

Anyway, characters wearing garb from another culture brings resplendents to mind. I wonder if they'll have culture festivals for ones native to Heroes or if they'll leave that exclusively for resplendents. I kind of hope they don't just leave them for resplendents. There are so many characters, and the designs for each culture in Heroes is so distinct and interesting! We can introduce new characters that way, too. For example, Nivdadellirian Jake would make sense, since I think he's usually a balatician. Plus, it would be a fun way to bring relevence back to worlds we've already visited. We can see how they're doing and all that via paralogue this way (if IS is okay with that, since they're trying to keep each book somewhat independent of one another. They have mention of the plots in FB's, though, so maybe it'll be okay.) If they had a Niflian festival, I wonder if they'd bring in Canas for that, and maybe King Hrid. Muspellian Julius would also be interesting, and we could see Queen Leavateinn. And the Alfar one can be a bunch of people who frequently sleep (a slumber party!), like Mitama, Haar, and Linhardt! Mirabilis would make sense as a "host" for that one, being a sleepyhead herself.

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15 minutes ago, SuperNova125 said:

Dorothea is going to be amazing for Legendary Edelgard. Being able to give her 2 extra actions is pretty big.

Might be a bit difficult for that though since you do not want ANF!Edelgard to dip into low health, so you cannot rely on Wings of Mercy to keep the Dancer/Singer safe in the back, and you do not always want DDR!Dorothea to be chilling with ANF!Edelgard on the front lines since that seems a bit risky.

Should be pretty awesome for Resonant Battles though since the enemy guards have armor movement, so you do not have to worry about her getting sniped on the front lines.

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1 hour ago, DefyingFates said:

I agree with everything you said, but this? This is just cruel xD

I haven't beaten FE7, but I've heard things and people make jokes about him with the cold a lot. *shrug* Thought it might be fitting. There aren't many characters who specifically connect to the cold. I guess it's a good place for Blue Lions to show up, though, since Faerghus is a cold country. Petra could be funny too, though. As I recall, she hates the cold.

Edit: Actually, Niflian Anette + Niflian Gilbert would make a cute duo unit. And I bet Ashe would look great bundled up in Niflian garb!

Edit again: And though I think Felicia would look awesome in Niflian attire, she's a reasonable candidate for a resplendent hero.

Edit again: And for the Nivdadellirian one, Eitri could be the "host" of a meeting of those interested in mechanics. Besides Jake (being an operator of heavy artillery), Yukimura also makes sense (he's good with machines), and though I could see Odin geeking out about the mechs, I don't see IS throwing together something mostly male for this. I don't think this is quite Ophelia's cup of tea either, otherwise she'd make a good replacement for her dad. Izuka is a scientist, but I think he's more of a chemist and biologist. I guess there's the magical side to consider, too. Iago comes to mind (he makes golems and stuff via magic, so he fits in), but again, he's a guy. There aren't that many girls in FE who are into the sciences, I guess. Lute and Anette are both booksmart, but it's not quite coming together for those two, especially since IS is going to want someone busty to show off, I think. Anette and Lute's body types are already kind of represented in Reginn, so the design won't be super distinct, and the other girl already repped in this scenario is Eitri, who is smol. Maybe they'll throw Manuella in or something. She's a professor (and a man-hunter) so it makes sense she'd be trying to find opportunities to find a guy keep up on recent technological advancements.

Edited by Mercakete

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1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

I haven't beaten FE7, but I've heard things and people make jokes about him with the cold a lot. *shrug*

That would be because [SPOILERS]:

Spoiler

Canas and his wife died in a snowstorm at some point before Binding Blade.

So, giving Canas a Nifl Resplendent is on the same level of giving Sigurd a Muspell one.

 

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