When did the female exclusivity of Pegasus Knights become official lore?

[AnonymousSpeed]

So, I was talking about pegasus knights on the unpopular opinions thread and my brain started doing things.

When is the first instance in the series where it is established that only females can ride pegasus knights?

Taken from the good wiki:

"Pegasi usually only allow women to ride them." — Karin, in chapter 6, Fire Emblem: Thracia 776

However, I wonder if there was an earlier mention of this in Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light, Gaiden, Mystery of the Emblem, or Genealogy of the Holy War. Heck, I'd even take a footnote from a manual. I'm very curious about whether this little oddity of Fire Emblem was intentional or something which came up accidentally and which they decided to roll with.

[King Marth 64]

I think the pegasus knights were merely exclusive to females in the entire series until Fates. I did heard the Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light comic mentioned by Catria (which it was by the time she meet Julian and Rickard while riding Caeda's Pegasi for spying the enmy camp and had trouble controlling it) and Selena's Support Conversation with Subaki from Fates metioned that Pegasi can only be riden by Females in Ylisse that Selena had no idea that she ever saw a Male Rider before. The Fates continent is the only continent that allows Pegasi can be riden by males. I do think the Mystery of the Emblem had Generic Soldiers were shown to be males. I do think that would be an error in the Spriting Department in Mystery of the Emblem since they did used buff arms. There were some Dracoknights (in which it was promoted from Pegasus Knights in Archanea only) that did used to ride a Pegasi was Minerva, she did explained in her support conversation with Palla in New Mysery of the Emblem that she did used to have a Pegasi and released it in the wild. I'm kinda wondered if the male Dracoknights such as Michalis started riding Wyverns without trained to become a Pegasus Knight due to strange promotion issues going on in Archanea?

I also do know that Emma did asked Randal in Echoes: Shadows of Valentia in their support conversation that Emma did asked if he might try out flying a Pegasi, Randal did refused to ride a Pegasi because he was raised at Elibe and he never heard a man riding a Pegasi while Emma was raised at Hoshido (which Hoshido has gender-free ridable pegasi). Randal is definitely doesn't feel like riding a Pegasi by himself that who be difficult for him since he did used to lived a continent that only has Female Riding only Pegasis.

Edited January 18, 2021 by King Marth 64

[Ertrick36]

AFAIK Thracia 776 is the first place to actually mention it.  I don't ever recall it being mentioned in Genealogy - and trust me, I was pretty thorough in reading up the script of the game - and they definitely didn't even talk about it in the earlier games.

In Mystery of the Emblem you did have male pegasus knights as enemies, and in earlier games it was kind of ambiguous since... well, there's only so much you can show with NES graphics.  The only other time there were male pegasus knights, and the only time they were actually even playable, was in Fates.  And the Archanea remakes I think retconned male pegasus knights, so it is canon that Fates is the only FE world where men can ride pegasi.

There were later mentions, like in Awakening when Chrom tried to tame a pegasus and it reared up, but was completely calm with Sumia, and likely other places as well.  And I also think some conversations with Subaki (particularly a support with Selena) touch upon that fact as well, and apparently pegasi in the world of Nohr and Hoshido are an entirely different breed that is more accepting of men.

Regardless, I think it was a deliberate decision given the apparent gender neutrality of pegasi in the games preceding Genealogy of the Holy War.  Maybe semi-deliberate, because while there were male pegasus knights in the preceding games, the only pegasus knights that were actually playable were all female, and so perhaps they thought "well what if lore-wise the mount actually was exclusive to women".

[Pengaius]

Thracia is the first game that explicitly states it to be the case, but before that, there were no playable male fliers whatsoever, wyvern or Pegasus. Dean from Thracia was the first playable male flier, then Zeiss, then Heath, then Cormag (Glen and Valter were in CC but...), then Haar (the Bird laguz flied to but eh). Before Reclassing was even a thing there had only ever been 5 playable male fliers, which honestly I think is a lot more interesting than genderlock pegasi. 

[Emperor Hardin]

7 minutes ago, Pengaius said:

Thracia is the first game that explicitly states it to be the case, but before that, there were no playable male fliers whatsoever, wyvern or Pegasus. Dean from Thracia was the first playable male flier, then Zeiss, then Heath, then Cormag (Glen and Valter were in CC but...), then Haar (the Bird laguz flied to but eh). Before Reclassing was even a thing there had only ever been 5 playable male fliers, which honestly I think is a lot more interesting than genderlock pegasi. 

Karin specifically says usually and not always.

A Shadow Dragon manga actually has Julian riding on Caeda's Pegasus.

The impression I got was female Pegasus Knights are the norm, but exceptions can exist.

6 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

I think the pegasus knights were merely exclusive to females in the entire series until Fates. I did heard the Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light comic mentioned by Catria (which it was by the time she meet Julian and Rickard while riding Caeda's Pegasi for spying the enmy camp and had trouble controlling it)

Shadow Dragon says nothing like and the class roll says DracoKnights, which the male Michalis is, are experienced pegasus Knights.

In Mystery of the Emblem, the enemy Pegasus Knights are explicitly men.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Emperor Hardin

[lenticular]

Relatedly, does anyone know why Pegasus and Falcon Knights are female exclusive? In my head, I've always assumed that it has some connection to various myths and legends that associate unicorns with pure/virginal young women, but I don't really know why I think that. The mounts for Falcon Knights are winged unicorns, so that might be where I'm pulling the association from, I guess. Does anyone know if this is the actual real-world lore motivation, or if a different rationale has ever been established as the out-of-universe inspiration (or if they just made it up)? I know there isn't any sort of female-exclusivity to the original Pegasus of Greek myth, since he was ridden by Bellerophon.

[LJ_Reflet]

7 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Relatedly, does anyone know why Pegasus and Falcon Knights are female exclusive? In my head, I've always assumed that it has some connection to various myths and legends that associate unicorns with pure/virginal young women, but I don't really know why I think that. The mounts for Falcon Knights are winged unicorns, so that might be where I'm pulling the association from, I guess. Does anyone know if this is the actual real-world lore motivation, or if a different rationale has ever been established as the out-of-universe inspiration (or if they just made it up)? I know there isn't any sort of female-exclusivity to the original Pegasus of Greek myth, since he was ridden by Bellerophon.

Omg I bring this up all the time whenever someone mentions the pegasus gender lock haha.

But honestly, the unicorn myth regarding maidens is probably the reason why Pegasus Knight is female-only, since FE does have a habit of referencing mythology and medieval lore. Even Selena in her support with Subaki uses the word "maiden," which is commonly how the unicorn myth is worded.

but honestly tho bring back male pegasus knights im beGGING

[X-Naut]

11 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Regardless, I think it was a deliberate decision given the apparent gender neutrality of pegasi in the games preceding Genealogy of the Holy War.  Maybe semi-deliberate, because while there were male pegasus knights in the preceding games, the only pegasus knights that were actually playable were all female, and so perhaps they thought "well what if lore-wise the mount actually was exclusive to women".

I think it was a deliberate decision because A) females made up a smaller portion of your army, so giving them an exclusive class helps them stand out more; and B) it let the developers save a bit of effort not making a male version of the class. Nowadays the casts are more gender-equal and reclassing has been breaking down gender divides so it's become an obsolete paradigm and an anomaly for how stubborn it is.

Lorewise, I headcanon that in prehistoric times pegasi were hunted for meat and other resources, and being intelligent creatures they developed a deeply entrenched fear of humans. Since hunters were predominantly men, this gave women a big advantage once people started domesticating them.

Edited January 18, 2021 by X-Naut

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

12 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

Lorewise, I headcanon that in prehistoric times pegasi were hunted for meat and other resources, and being intelligent creatures they developed a deeply entrenched fear of humans. Since hunters were predominantly men, this gave women a big advantage once people started domesticating them.

I mean, pegasi are still being hunted. Where did you think Speedwings come from?

Anyway, I don't have anything intelligent to add, but I think there are ways IS can keep the lore, while also playing with it to allow male Pegasus knights. Like, have a Soldier who's the son of a famed Falcon Knight. He's frustrated that he can't follow in his mother's footsteps, both due to social norms and to pegasi refusing him. Until, that is, a paraogue wherein he saves a pegasus colt from poachers - who then allows the Soldier to promote and ride him.

[Dragoncat]

46 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

Lorewise, I headcanon that in prehistoric times pegasi were hunted for meat and other resources, and being intelligent creatures they developed a deeply entrenched fear of humans. Since hunters were predominantly men, this gave women a big advantage once people started domesticating them.

This is literally the same thing I headcanon.

27 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I think there are ways IS can keep the lore, while also playing with it to allow male Pegasus knights. Like, have a Soldier who's the son of a famed Falcon Knight. He's frustrated that he can't follow in his mother's footsteps, both due to social norms and to pegasi refusing him. Until, that is, a paraogue wherein he saves a pegasus colt from poachers - who then allows the Soldier to promote and ride him.

This is a very good idea.

One thing I've done with my Fodlan ficverse is make Ingrid's pegasus a peachy tan color (because if horses can be a bunch of colors then why not pegasi), and she named her Cobbler after peach cobbler. Cobbler is especially flighty and sexist, because a group of male bandits once stole her from her wild herd and treated her very badly, starved her, whipped her etc. Ingrid rescued her. Dimitri has tried to feed Cobbler apples but she bites him. She will allow Ingrid to pick up Dimitri, Sylvain, and Felix but she clearly doesn't like it and will start misbehaving if they're there too long. She's better with Ashe but still acts slightly uncomfortable.

[LJ_Reflet]

49 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I mean, pegasi are still being hunted. Where did you think Speedwings come from?

Anyway, I don't have anything intelligent to add, but I think there are ways IS can keep the lore, while also playing with it to allow male Pegasus knights. Like, have a Soldier who's the son of a famed Falcon Knight. He's frustrated that he can't follow in his mother's footsteps, both due to social norms and to pegasi refusing him. Until, that is, a paraogue wherein he saves a pegasus colt from poachers - who then allows the Soldier to promote and ride him.

That'd be a really interesting idea, actually. Or even in the next title, it could be set several decades, or even centuries following the previous, and it could just be "pegasi used to be picky, but now they're not" or wuteva.

Regardless, from a gameplay perspective, it's severely limiting that male units can't be pegasus knights.

[Emperor Hardin]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I mean, pegasi are still being hunted. Where did you think Speedwings come from?

Anyway, I don't have anything intelligent to add, but I think there are ways IS can keep the lore, while also playing with it to allow male Pegasus knights. Like, have a Soldier who's the son of a famed Falcon Knight. He's frustrated that he can't follow in his mother's footsteps, both due to social norms and to pegasi refusing him. Until, that is, a paraogue wherein he saves a pegasus colt from poachers - who then allows the Soldier to promote and ride him.

I kind of imagine the rare Male Pegasus riders have small builds and soft-spoken demeanors.

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Anyway, I don't have anything intelligent to add, but I think there are ways IS can keep the lore, while also playing with it to allow male Pegasus knights. Like, have a Soldier who's the son of a famed Falcon Knight. He's frustrated that he can't follow in his mother's footsteps, both due to social norms and to pegasi refusing him. Until, that is, a paraogue wherein he saves a pegasus colt from poachers - who then allows the Soldier to promote and ride him.

It isn't like we don't have gendered careers/jobs IRL. Sometimes they started one way, and became another. Nursing, non-collegial teaching, secretary work, all have some tinge of femininity now, but I don't think any of these were this way until the past century or two when pioneering women opened the doors. By contrast, the production of beer in Europe, outside of the monasteries, was usually done at home by women in the Medieval age, only to become masculine when men in the Early Modern era took brewing out of the household and into the brewery business (possibly an inspiration for stereotypical witch attire).

However, we do have male nurses and teachers, so no reason to deny FE men Pegasus (or Troubahorsies). We have female police officers and frontline military personnel too, so FE Warrior women deserve to exist.

 

3 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I kind of imagine the rare Male Pegasus riders have small builds and soft-spoken demeanors.

Horse jockeys IRL are usually small. Although in that case it's to minimize weight and air drag, combatants on mounts need to be capable of things other than going fast. Short but ripped might be ideal for FE fliers.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[Emperor Hardin]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Horse jockeys IRL are usually small. Although in that case it's to minimize weight and air drag, combatants on mounts need to be capable of things other than going fast. Short but ripped might be ideal for FE fliers.

Pegasi are mentioned to be timid and Pegasus Knight characters almost always have light builds too.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 1/18/2021 at 6:07 PM, Emperor Hardin said:

Pegasi are mentioned to be timid and Pegasus Knight characters almost always have light builds too.

 

On 1/18/2021 at 12:58 PM, Emperor Hardin said:

I kind of imagine the rare Male Pegasus riders have small builds and soft-spoken demeanors.

I see three basic personality moulds for Pegasus Knights: Timid, Dutiful, and "Genki Girl". The first group is exemplified by Florina and Sumia - characters who aren't totally confident in their abilities, and have difficulty expressing themselves socially. The second type - a consummate professional, who takes their job seriously - is seen in Fiora and Cordelia. The third may be the loosest, but it's basically those who tend to be cheery and outgoing, such as Farina or Cynthia.

Anyway, it makes sense for fliers in general to want to be lighter. Though, given Pegasus Knight's ability to pair-up, or Rescue larger units, it's not clear how strict an obstacle high weight would be to taking up the Pegasus' reins. Like, maybe Hawkeye could fly one, and he'd just have a really poor Aid value.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typo.

[Jotari]

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2021 at 5:00 PM, Pengaius said:

Thracia is the first game that explicitly states it to be the case, but before that, there were no playable male fliers whatsoever, wyvern or Pegasus. Dean from Thracia was the first playable male flier, then Zeiss, then Heath, then Cormag (Glen and Valter were in CC but...), then Haar (the Bird laguz flied to but eh). Before Reclassing was even a thing there had only ever been 5 playable male fliers, which honestly I think is a lot more interesting than genderlock pegasi. 

No playable male fliers, but there still were male enemy draco knights (Michalis, Travant, Areone), so they didn:t really have lore to make out of that. It is an interesting question though if the eight or so pegasus knights before Thracia (Shiida, three pegasus sisters, Clair, Fury, her daughter, her replacement) all just happened to be female by coincidence or intentional design. Eight is a rather high number for a coincidence. Oh wait higher than eight since they have those three Silesian pegasus sisters too, I think Fury is one and then there:s the ally who dies and one who is an antagonist. Maybe Fury isn:t one and there:s a third, can:t quite remember. Still that makes at least 10 pegasus characters (oh wait three more in the final battle who have Earth Swords and stuff), 13 characters who are all pegasus knights and all coincidentally female. Quite unbelievable, even if they only mentioned in Thracia they must haved decided by Genealogy, because theres a tonne of pegasus knights in that game who are all female.