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Generation 1 TM Tier List


Eltosian Kadath
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Alright, so this is kinda random, but I started thinking about it after watching some of Jrose11's content. I suppose I must start with criteria here, but this is based on how useful these TM/HMs are while playing Red/Blue at a relatively fast pace, not really competitive Gen 1 play, or full blown speed run pace. I have a lot of them set aside as undecided so far, and any advise or argument for a TM/HM being in a higher or lower category I would appreciate.

Now to describe the tiers. TOP tier set themselves apart as the most useful TMs in the game, and I expect to be used almost immediately, and having an impact on a massive portion of the game. GOOD tier are TMs I expect to be useful if you have a poke that can use it, and for that to be a relatively common occurrence. USABLE tier are TMs where some fairly normal runs could find them useful. SITUATIONAL tier are TMS where the times where it would be useful are rare, and might require an explanation for when it might be useful. USELESS tier are ones where I have a hard time imagine them ever being useful. I also have a large section of TMs that I haven't  tiered yet. I haven't ordered the TMs within individual Tiers yet, but once I have placed all of them I might end up doing so.

Top Tier

TM 08 Body Slam (S.S. Anne): Body Slam is one of the best normal moves in the game, and its gotten extremely early. Its a solid move that can be the best option for most of the physical pokemon all the way into endgame.

TM 13 Ice Beam (Celadon Dept): Great coverage move that wipes Lance off the map, available on a lot of pokes, with 100 accuracy, and even a 10% freeze chance. Blizzard is some noted competition for this move, but its power is high enough in general, and its available earlier.

TM 24 Thunderbolt (Vermillian Gym): The best electric move in the game, and you can get it early. Electric moves are particularly valuable, as it deals well with many of Lorelei's pokemon, and the Gyrados(es) from Lance, and potentially the Rival, whom are otherwise dangerous threats.

TM 28 Dig (Cerulean City): In this gen, it has 100 power and accuracy (same as earthquake), is gotten extremely early into the game, and even has a lot of utility with fast play, as it brings you back to the last pokecenter you visited when you can use it in this game. It has a bit of a trade-off in that its two turn (one protected) is a bit slower, but also lets you use some stall tactics, or cheese past the mandatory exploding hiker in rock tunnel, or Koga's exploding Weezing. Plus the ground typing is a great way of dealing with Agatha's obnoxious poison types.

TM 29 Psychic (Saffron City): It has 30% special drop chance (in a game where that is both Special Attack, and Special Defense), psychic attacks being only resisted by psychic types, and having type advantage over Agatha's team. The worst you can say about it is it being gotten around the mid game.

TM 31 Mimic (Saffron City): Gen 1 movesets tend to be shallow, and Mimic is a godsend in fixing that issue. Its available to any poke that learn TMs, and it lets you chose an opponent's move to copy for a battle, so it gives you access to a lot of interesting options that might otherwise be unavailable to you. There is even a glitch to make the move learn permanent (although it is a bit limited in requiring the enemy trainer to have switching in its AI).

HM03 Surf (Safari Zone): This is the most suspect TM/HM in this tier, but it is the best reliable water move, can be used repeatedly, and with how available water type pokemon are at the point in the game you get this HM, that re-usability adds to its value.

Good Tier

TM 01 Mega Punch (Mt. Moon/Celadon Dept): I kinda view this as the Jeigan of TMs, as its one of the first TMs you ever get, and its an improvement to any poke's move list that can learn it. Make no mistake, this move will be replaced, as it has accuracy issues, but an 80 base power move in the point in the game where you are really on tackles is not to be ignored.

TM 03 Sword's Dance (Silph Co.): If this move were available on more pokes with Stab on physical moves it would be Top Tier. It is still a great boosting move, that gives access to an extra 3 badge boost glitches, and the boost it gives is still fairly valuable in setting up a sweep.

TM 11 Bubblebeam (Cerulean Gym): This is an extremely early TM, that will be an immediate boost to any early water type poke you have, but its how many other type pokes that can learn this move that push it into good tier. Its one of the earliest ways to access some extra type coverage, with good power for how early you get it.

TM 14 Blizzard (Pokemon Mansion): This is a great TM, its a bit late game, but having 90 accuracy on an 120 power move is amazing, and the typing for it is excellent as well (and that is before mentioning the 10% freeze chance...). I considered it for top tier even, but Ice Beam edges it out.

TM 26 Earthquake (Silph Co.) : It feels odd to leave the TM for a move that has been good throughout the generations in only Good Tier, but Dig so thoroughly outmatches it that it doesn't deserve to be in the same tier. Dig matches Earthquake in power and accuracy (in this gen at least), coming earlier, is available to more pokes, and has added utility outside of battle as well. Don't get me wrong its still a good TM, and you might even want to replace Dig with it in the endgame to save some time in battles, but its competition has edged it out of Top Tier.

TM 38 Fire Blast (Cinnabar Gym): If any other fire TMs existed this might have fallen a place in the tier list, but it being the only way to add either fire coverage, or simply power up a Fire poke just barely pushes it here. Otherwise it is a bit of a mixed bag, its a late game TM, but many of the fire types that might want it tend to only be available later into the game as well, it might have the massive 120 power, but comes with accuracy issue to compensate.

TM 45 Thunder Wave (Route 24): Paralysis is a nasty status effect (and while you do have to worry about a glitch if the enemy raises its speed, that is still a fairly rare occurrence), and having a 100% to debuff some of the most dangerous fast pokes you might face can really save you in the long run.

TM 48 Rock Slide (Celadon Dept): As the only Rock move other than the embarrassingly bad rock throw (50 power, and 65 accuracy in this gen...), this move ends up being a vast improvement to any rock pokes, and a way to give physical pokes some desperately needed coverage.

HM 02 Fly (Route 16): The second best Flying attack, but its much more available than its competition (drill peck). Its the go to stab flying move for most pokes in this game, and has the obvious outside utility, plus the two turns (one protected) can still be used with some stall tactics, or to cheese Koga's Weezing explosion (it unfortunately comes too late for the mandatory rock tunnel hiker...).

HM 04 Strength (Fuchsia City): This is the most suspect TM/HM in this tier, but its the number of Pokes that can learn this move, it being reusable, and being the 2nd highest (tied) power move without side effects, that ends up push this just barely into Good tier.

Usable Tier

TM 05 Mega Kick (Celadon Dept/Victory Road): There is a lot of competition for Normal type moves, but the high damage (120 Power), at a low accuracy (and PP) tradeoff can be useful.

TM 06 Toxic (Fuchsia Gym): Central to many stall tactics, with some beneficial bugs to boot. Combining it with Leech Seed (another common stall move) makes for a potent combo due to both raising the toxic timer. More offensive strategies are usually better, but stall is still usable in game.

TM 10 Double Edge (Rocket Hideout): Despite the 100 power and accuracy of this move, the recoil on it is makes it true to its name. If you need that extra bit of power, and are willing to pay the price in the extra healing it can be a usable TM

TM 15 Hyper Beam (Game Corner): If you didn't have to hemorrhage either money, or time into the game corner to get this TM it would be at least Good tier. The gen 1 glitch that makes this move not need to recharge when you ko a poke makes it an amazing move, but the cost of getting it is a bit prohibitive.

TM 17 Submission (Victory Road): If this TM arrived earlier in the game it would be far better. It may be the best fighting move available to pokes other than hitmonlee, but it has accuracy issues, and the only thing left in the game is the elite 4 by the time you get it. Lorelei being an ice trainer makes it sound useful against her, but Cloister's sky high defense, and Jynx's psychic typing, make it only really effective against her Dewgong and Lapras.

TM 25 Thunder (Power Plant): The low accuracy, and how much more out of the way it is than Thunderbolt, are what push it down into this tier. If you need an electric move, and have already used Thunderbolt, or desperately need that extra power (and are willing to risk the miss) it can still be useful to get.

TM 32 Double Team (Fuchsia City/Celadon Dept): The raising of evasion is vital to a lot of stall tactics, which are viable in game. More offensive strategies are usually better, but stall is still usable.

TM 33 Reflect (Power Plant/Celadon Dept): I considered putting this into the situational tier, but using the half physical damage to survive Koga's Weezing exploding, or forcing one of Lances pokes into a Hyper Beam recharge turn are useful enough to pull it into this tier. I will note that unlike most gens, it last for the entire battle, but only on the poke that used it

TM 36 Self Destruct (Silph co.): The high power of this move will almost certainly finish off a dangerous poke, and with tactical use of it, and sufficient money spent on revives it is usable.

TM 44 Rest (S.S. Anne): Central to many stall tactics, as it is one of the most common heal moves, and both fully heals, and heals status. Admittedly there are a lot of notable bugs making that status heal less useful than it sounds, as it doesn't reset the Toxic timer, and doesn't heal the speed drop and attack drop of Paralyze and Burn, but even if it didn't heal status at all it would still be a usable move for a tactic which is still viable.

TM 47 Explosion (Victory Road): A stronger, latter game Self destruct, and the same blurb basically applies. Its massive power will finish off a dangerous poke, and with tactical use of it, and sufficient money spent on revives it is usable.

TM 49 Tri Attack (Celadon Dept): Its how few Pokes that can learn this move that make it so low on the list. Its almost as good as Body slam, and comes a little later, but can be bought multiple times, but few pokes can learn it, and many of them are mediocre physical attackers at best.

Situational Tier

TM 07 Horn Drill(Celdaon Dept/Rocket Hideout): If you have to rely on the 30% accuracy OHKO moves, you are in a strange run. Admittedly you can use X accuracy to get rid of the accuracy check, but it still only works on slower pokes, so you might have to boost up speed as well (and if you don't you are probably using a poke good enough to use better options).

TM 09 Take Down (Saffron City/Celadon Dept): Recoil, with lower might and accuracy that Double-Edge, using it over the numerous better normal moves is a strange situation to be in.

TM 12 Water Gun (Mt. Moon): One of the better TMs in this tier as you get it early, but its 40 power (still better than bubble...) becomes obsolete very soon, as Bubble Beam is superior to it (and surf even more so), and there are few enemies it is useful against before it becomes obsolete.

TM 16 Pay Day (Route 12): Its not very useful for combat, and not many pokes learn it, but if you desperately need access to extra money it might see some use...

TM 18 Counter (Celadon Dept): Having to really on the enemy directly damaging you, to deal damage back is rarely a good idea...

TM 19 Seismic Toss (Route 25): Usually normal attacks will out damage this fixed damage attack. Now it does scale with level, giving it more use in solo or low poke runs, and ignores all weakness and immunities in this game, so it has quite a few situational uses, I don't think it is quite enough or useable tier...

TM 21 Mega Drain (Celadon Dept): This is a low power move for when you get it in the midgame, in an attacking type that isn't very useful. Now it does give a bit of healing, and I could see a grass type that learns growth taking this TM to avoid razor leaf's high crit chance from spoiling the buff strat, but both of those are niche enough to earn this tier.

TM 22 Solar Beam (Pokemon Mansion): I almost put this in useless tier, as two turn unprotected moves are incredibly bad, but this is high enough power (120), and in a typing with bad enough competition that I could imagine someone using this TM...

TM 23 Dragon Rage(Game Corner): Few pokes can learn it, the fixed damage becomes out modded later into the game, and its exorbitantly expensive to get thanks to the game corner.

TM 27 Fissure (Viridian Gym): If you have to really on the 30% accuracy OHKO moves, you are in a strange run. Admittedly you can use X accuracy to get rid of the accuracy check, but it still only works on slower pokes, so you might have to boost up speed as well, but seeing as you managed to get all 8 badges to even get it, you probably already have better options.

TM 34 Bide (Pewter Gym):This is so close to being in useless tier, but I could imagine a weird run where a poke's move set it so bad that this almost useless first TM might actually be an improvement. Plus its the only way for a few normal types to actually damage some of the mandatory ghost trainers in Pokemon Tower

TM 39 Swift (Route 12): It just comes too late into the game, with too low of power, and too much competition with other Normal type moves to see enough use for it to reach usable tier. The ignoring of accuracy check gives it some notable situational uses, so its one of the better TMs in this tier.

TM 41 Softboiled (Celadon City): This can only be learned by a single poke (other than Mew), and in this game, and that poke, Chansey, needs high quality special TMs to take advantage of its high special, and you could easily have room for this move, which has some utility in both stalling, and in saving money on healing items (or avoiding them all together). This one is really on the border between these tiers...

TM 43 Sky Attack (Victory Road): I almost put this in useless tier, as two turn unprotected moves are incredibly bad, but 140 power on a flying type move is just high enough (on a rare enough attacking type) that I could imagine someone trying to use this move.

HM 05 Flash (Route 2): Effectively this is a worse version of double team. Now if you cold replace the move flash with double team it would probably be in the next higher tier, but deciding to use it early locks you out of a more viable option (that is reusable as well due to it being sold), which makes this a niche enough choice to reach situational tier.

Useless Tier

TM 02 Razor Wind (Celadon Dept/Rocket Hideout): a two turn unprotected move that has only 80 power, and is a normal type is utterly useless...

TM 04 Whirlwind (Route 4) : It does nothing in trainer battles, and you are not forced to encounter a wild pokemon after you get this TM, before you have access to repels...

TM 20 Rage (Route 15) : One of the worst moves in the generation, and the way it locks you into using it can get you into one of the most famous softlocks in the game...

TM 30 Teleport (Route 9) : It does nothing in trainer battles, and you get it after you have access to repel, and even if you wanted to use its field effect, you get dig, a move that lets you use the same effect, before you even have access to it.

TM 35 Metronome (Cinnabar Island) : Using a random move is rarely good, and with how late into the game you get this TM, I can't imagine there being a run where it is a good idea to actually use this TM when you get it. If you got it earlier when you had less options it might reach situational, but you are near the end of the game when you get this...

TM 37 Egg Bomb (Fuchsia City/Celadon Dept): Only three (four including Mew) pokes can learn this TM, none of them are primarily physical attackers, and while it has terrible accuracy to boot...

TM 40 Skull Bash (Safari Zone): a two turn unprotected move that has only 100 power, and is a normal type is utterly useless...

TM 42 Dream Eater (Viridian City): The sleep mechanics of this game may be broken, but having to rely on them to use a move is niche to begin with. Looking a bit more into it, its only available on the Drowzee, and Gastley line, both of which have to rely on the least accurate sleep move, Hypnosis. Psychic is the obvious move that competes with it, and even if you already used the TM Drowzee/Hypno learn it through level-up, and the Gastley line learns Dream eater itself through level-up if you really want this move, making this TM rather useless.

TM 46 Psywave (Saffron Gym): Random fixed damage between 1 and 1.5 x your level is inconsistent, and terrible...

HM 01 Cut (S.S. Anne) : By the time you get this, its a bad move, in one of the most common move types, and you can't replace it. Using it as anything other than a dead move slot is unimaginable.

Undecided

TM 50 Substitute - In this generation this move is so glitchy that I am uncertain how useful it would be

 

Edited by Eltosian Kadath
Updating Tier List
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You don't have to gamble on the 30% accuracy of Fissure and Horn Drill if you don't want to, an X Accuracy will make all your moves ignore the accuracy check like Swift. So for one turn of setup (two if you need an X Speed) you can sweep just about any trainer. They still might qualify for situational though.

Anyway, I think Ice Beam can go in top (same availability as Psychic) and Blizzard in high (less avail, less accuracy, Ice Beam often does enough). Most of the other moves could go in situational, maybe usable for Double Team, Substitute, Toxic and Rest. Stall tactics are viable in-game because very few AIs switch, although they usually only happen in self-imposed challenges where an offensive strategy is impractical.

Also Softboiled should go in useless because you need a glitch to get the one relevant mon and said mon has the stats and coverage to go offensive. Dream Eater and Bide could probably drop too.

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8 hours ago, X-Naut said:

You don't have to gamble on the 30% accuracy of Fissure and Horn Drill if you don't want to, an X Accuracy will make all your moves ignore the accuracy check like Swift. So for one turn of setup (two if you need an X Speed) you can sweep just about any trainer. They still might qualify for situational though.

Fair enough, I think its still in situational, but the blurb on it does deserve updating to address this tactic.

 

8 hours ago, X-Naut said:

Anyway, I think Ice Beam can go in top (same availability as Psychic) and Blizzard in high (less avail, less accuracy, Ice Beam often does enough).

That seems to be a fair assessment, so I think I will go with that.

 

8 hours ago, X-Naut said:

Most of the other moves could go in situational,

That is a little too wide and sweeping decision for me to just plunge into on this

 

8 hours ago, X-Naut said:

maybe usable for Double Team, Substitute, Toxic and Rest. Stall tactics are viable in-game because very few AIs switch, although they usually only happen in self-imposed challenges where an offensive strategy is impractical.

...OK, I think I will put them in usable, as viable options, where there is usually a better option sounds about right for that tier, although most of the one already in that tier have a more clear cut better option, whereas here its almost the entire tactic that is the viable, but slightly worse alternative...

 

8 hours ago, X-Naut said:

 

Also Softboiled should go in useless because you need a glitch to get the one relevant mon and said mon has the stats and coverage to go offensive.

The point about Chansey's stats and coverage being good enough to go on the offensive is a fair point (although you could get Chansey without glitches, if you are incredibly lucky...)

 

8 hours ago, X-Naut said:

Dream Eater and Bide could probably drop too.

Bide gets to stay, mainly because there are solo runs where it is literally the only option you have for getting past the mandatory Ghost trainers in the pokemon tower. Its an incredibly niche situation, but runs exist where it is a good option,

The more I look into Dream Eater, the more I am leaning in that direction, its learned by two evolution lines, one can learn Psychic through level-up (in the event you already used that TM), and the other can learn Dreameater itself through level-up, both have to rely on the ~60 accuracy hypnosis for sleep, and both lines are generally good enough to use other options fairly easily. On the other hand, it is slightly more powerful than psychic, the sleep mechanics of this gen are amazingly broken, and it does add a source of healing...I think I will drop it down, although it is a close call.

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2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The point about Chansey's stats and coverage being good enough to go on the offensive is a fair point (although you could get Chansey without glitches, if you are incredibly lucky...)

I was talking about Mew... although I was also under the impression that Chansey learned it naturally, but it turns out not in Gen 1...

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Neat idea.

I definitely don't think Softboiled belongs in the bottom tier. I suppose it's not very useful if you're willing to spam items, but if you're not, Chansey is a bit on the slow side, so patching up a safe point in a battle (e.g. against an all-special opponent) can let it keep going nicely. It's certainly a better move than Rest, healing over half as much in practice using just 1/3 of the turns (although Rest obviously has more pokemon who can use it, but I still find putting Rest higher than it rather suspect).

Mimic seems like the odd duck in its tier, I would put it at least one tier lower, probably two. (Not accounting for this glitch anyway.) Eating a turn to do nothing but expand your skillset is pretty situational (or did it actually use the move the turn it copies it?). Not to mention in RBY, many enemy pokemon have pretty weak movepools to start with.

Definitely think Thunderwave belongs in Good. In-game some of the most dangerous opponents are the "ace" pokemon of bosses, like Alakazam; Thunderwave renders them sitting ducks who even weak teams can beat to death, and it's 100 accuracy. It's substantially better than Toxic, for example.

I think Strength manages to hang in the tier you have it pretty comfortably. RBY movepools are shallow enough that many physical pokemon welcome "slightly weaker Body Slam".

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If were assuming relatively quick play then I cant imagine even getting a Chansey. I takes so long to encounter one in the Safari Zone (which even trouble of finding one aside is rather late in the game). And unless youre playing Pokemon Stadium, Softboiled offers nothing using items doesn:t already do (though it does have the rather fun out of battle efect of being able to give Chansy:s HP to other pokemon, did they remove that in more modern games? Or am I remembering backwards and its only in more modern games?)

Edited by Jotari
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Mimic should be situational. By the time you reach Saffron your team should be competent on its own.

Mega Punch down, it's not that great. Most that can use it have decent STAB moves, Horn Attack, or aren't physical attackers.

If Ice Beam's availability puts it over Blizzard, I think the same about Water Gun and Bubblebeam. Water Gun may be weak, but it helps you through Mt Moon and Nugget Bridge. (You could beat Misty as soon as you reach Cerulean but that'd require a lot of grinding.) Bubblebeam never really gets a chance to shine, and isn't a long-term prospect.

Self Destruct/Explosion are usable, they can work as a finisher. You could even spam them if you buy a lot of Revives.

Seismic Toss is situational. It's kind of like Dragon Rage, it's never quite good enough to use over a standard attack move.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I definitely don't think Softboiled belongs in the bottom tier. I suppose it's not very useful if you're willing to spam items, but if you're not, Chansey is a bit on the slow side, so patching up a safe point in a battle (e.g. against an all-special opponent) can let it keep going nicely. It's certainly a better move than Rest, healing over half as much in practice using just 1/3 of the turns (although Rest obviously has more pokemon who can use it, but I still find putting Rest higher than it rather suspect).

It would never rise up to the tier Rest is in due to how few pokemon can learn it, and how rare that one (sorta 2) poke that can learn it is... although...this has gotten me to look back at Chansey's moveset, and I could imagine a run that has Chansey, and has used up enough good special TMs that this is the best options. Plus it sounds like I misinterpreted the quote that suggested it drop down a tier, so I think I will bump it back up to situational.

 

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

Mimic seems like the odd duck in its tier, I would put it at least one tier lower, probably two. (Not accounting for this glitch anyway.) Eating a turn to do nothing but expand your skillset is pretty situational (or did it actually use the move the turn it copies it?). Not to mention in RBY, many enemy pokemon have pretty weak movepools to start with.

1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

Mimic should be situational. By the time you reach Saffron your team should be competent on its own.

The opponent only needs one good move for it to be useful. I think the best uses of it come from grabbing boosting moves you might want/need from otherwise weak pokes of some of the most critical battles in the game (LightScreen from Sabrina's MrMime, Agility from Blaine's Growleth, Agility from the Rival's Pigeot (from the battle immediately before the Elite 4), and Amnesia from Lorelei's Slowbro come to mind), or strong moves you might not have (like Giovanni's Dugtrio's Dig which is supper effective against the rest of his team, or simply a HyperBeam from any of Lance's Pokemon). I am certain there are other examples or possibilities, but these are the first that come to mind. Another big part of its rating is in how many pokes can learn it, every poke that is capable of learning a TM can, and there are plenty of pokes with movepools so shallow that having the option of mimic is an improvement. Being able to trivialize some of the harder battles in the game with even stupidly bad, or under-leveled pokes is what prompted me to put it in top tier.

 

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Definitely think Thunderwave belongs in Good. In-game some of the most dangerous opponents are the "ace" pokemon of bosses, like Alakazam; Thunderwave renders them sitting ducks who even weak teams can beat to death, and it's 100 accuracy. It's substantially better than Toxic, for example.

...Fair enough, I was leaning in that direction already.

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

If were assuming relatively quick play then I cant imagine even getting a Chansey. I takes so long to encounter one in the Safari Zone (which even trouble of finding one aside is rather late in the game). And unless youre playing Pokemon Stadium, Softboiled offers nothing using items doesn:t already do (though it does have the rather fun out of battle efect of being able to give Chansy:s HP to other pokemon, did they remove that in more modern games? Or am I remembering backwards and its only in more modern games?)

You are required to traverse the Safari zone, and you never know, someone might just luck their way into grabbing one while they are there, and it is a great poke if you have it. Alternatively a sneaky trainer might use the Cinnabar coast glitch to make getting it slightly less luck based if that was a poke they really wanted.

As for the move giving you nothing that items don't, it does let you save money on healing items, and playing with no items in battle is a common enough playstyle, both of which are enough to be considered for at least the situational tier. Also you are right about it having that outside battle effect even back in Gen 1.

 

8 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

 

Mega Punch down, it's not that great. Most that can use it have decent STAB moves, Horn Attack, or aren't physical attackers.

You don't think you would appreciate getting an 80 power move in Mt.Moon...

Also the Horn Attack comment seems particularly random, as the only poke that can learn both of those attacks is Nidoking. I will note that in the original post I said while this tier list was assuming fast, it wasn't assuming a SpeedRun pace, and while the Nidoking route is common for speedruns, that wasn't quite what I was going for with this tier list. Don't get me wrong it will be replaced, but as early as you get it, its a notable power boost.

 

17 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

 

If Ice Beam's availability puts it over Blizzard, I think the same about Water Gun and Bubblebeam. Water Gun may be weak, but it helps you through Mt Moon and Nugget Bridge. (You could beat Misty as soon as you reach Cerulean but that'd require a lot of grinding.) Bubblebeam never really gets a chance to shine, and isn't a long-term prospect.

I must admit the early arrival of Water Gun made me consider it for usable tier, but depending on you routing you could face 0 trainers with pokemon weak to water moves before Misty. Meanwhile after you get Bubble Beam from Misty you have to face Rock Tunnel, a which has notably many trainers with pokemon weak to water. Even if you save Misty for as late as you possibly can

Spoiler

So you beat the second mandatory rival, go north past nugget bridge to visit Bill, then pass through the ransacked house to complete the S.S. Anne before using Dig to warp back to Cerulean

you face 1-3 mandatory trainer(s) with pokemon weak to water moves (the reason it is 1-3 is if the rival has charmander you face three, otherwise only one trainer above nugget bridge is mandatory), and 6 optional trainers (1 before Misty in Mt. Moon, 2 above nugget bridge, 1 on route 6 on the way to the S.S. Anne, and 2 more if you go out of your way to visit the route east of Vermilion before beating Misty...); comparing that to the fast route between Misty and the Surf HM

Spoiler

You head east and south from Cerulean down route 9-10, pass through rock tunnel, pass through routes 7-8 to visit Celadon Dept for the pokedoll, grab fly from above cycling road, fly back to Lavendar to climb pokemon tower, and then fly back to Celadon to dodge all the trainers on cycling road to then grab surf from the Safari Zone

you have to face 3 mandatory trainers with pokemon weak to water (2 trainer in Rock Tunnel, and the rival in Pokemon Tower who always has a fire type), and 11 optional battles (5 of them on route 9, and 6 of them in Rock Tunnel). So to summarize, even if you take the longest you possibly could between getting watergun and bubble beam, and then grab surf as fast as you possibly can, you are still facing more trainers weak to water with BubbleBeam. Plus Water Gun's mere 40 power isn't impressive, while Bubble Beam's 65 with 33% speed drop is far more usable. Plus there are multiple pokemon that can learn bubble beam, but can't learn surf, making it the best water move availble to quiet a few pokemon looking for water coverage...

 

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Self Destruct/Explosion are usable, they can work as a finisher. You could even spam them if you buy a lot of Revives.

That seems fair.

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Seismic Toss is situational. It's kind of like Dragon Rage, it's never quite good enough to use over a standard attack move.

The scaling makes it better later into the game, but that still semms fair.

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2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

You don't think you would appreciate getting an 80 power move in Mt.Moon...

Also the Horn Attack comment seems particularly random, as the only poke that can learn both of those attacks is Nidoking. I will note that in the original post I said while this tier list was assuming fast, it wasn't assuming a SpeedRun pace, and while the Nidoking route is common for speedruns, that wasn't quite what I was going for with this tier list. Don't get me wrong it will be replaced, but as early as you get it, its a notable power boost.

I would, but 85% accuracy puts a damper on it. It's effectively 68 BP

Of the eight that learn Mega Punch that you could catch before Body Slam becomes available, three have an 40 BP stab move, one has a 65 BP move, two aren't physical attackers anyway. That just leaves Nidoqueen and Geodude that get a notable boost from it.

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I must admit the early arrival of Water Gun made me consider it for usable tier, but depending on you routing you could face 0 trainers with pokemon weak to water moves before Misty. Meanwhile after you get Bubble Beam from Misty you have to face Rock Tunnel, a which has notably many trainers with pokemon weak to water. Even if you save Misty for as late as you possibly can

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So you beat the second mandatory rival, go north past nugget bridge to visit Bill, then pass through the ransacked house to complete the S.S. Anne before using Dig to warp back to Cerulean

you face 1-3 mandatory trainer(s) with pokemon weak to water moves (the reason it is 1-3 is if the rival has charmander you face three, otherwise only one trainer above nugget bridge is mandatory), and 6 optional trainers (1 before Misty in Mt. Moon, 2 above nugget bridge, 1 on route 6 on the way to the S.S. Anne, and 2 more if you go out of your way to visit the route east of Vermilion before beating Misty...); comparing that to the fast route between Misty and the Surf HM

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You head east and south from Cerulean down route 9-10, pass through rock tunnel, pass through routes 7-8 to visit Celadon Dept for the pokedoll, grab fly from above cycling road, fly back to Lavendar to climb pokemon tower, and then fly back to Celadon to dodge all the trainers on cycling road to then grab surf from the Safari Zone

you have to face 3 mandatory trainers with pokemon weak to water (2 trainer in Rock Tunnel, and the rival in Pokemon Tower who always has a fire type), and 11 optional battles (5 of them on route 9, and 6 of them in Rock Tunnel). So to summarize, even if you take the longest you possibly could between getting watergun and bubble beam, and then grab surf as fast as you possibly can, you are still facing more trainers weak to water with BubbleBeam. Plus Water Gun's mere 40 power isn't impressive, while Bubble Beam's 65 with 33% speed drop is far more usable. Plus there are multiple pokemon that can learn bubble beam, but can't learn surf, making it the best water move availble to quiet a few pokemon looking for water coverage...

 

Routing is pretty important. Team composition is too, the experience you need is dependent on that, and so how many trainers you can afford to dodge.

Misty's Starmie is higher level than anything on Nugget Bridge, Route 6, Route 11, and all but one trainer on the SS Anne (not the rival). So I think it's logical to tackle her after those.

Route 9 and Rock Tunnel does have a lot of water-weak trainers, but a lot of them are Hikers. Geodude and Onix will be one-shot by Water Gun as well, and they make up 9 of the battles on those routes.

Water Gun is good for  up to 16 - 18 battles before Surf, compared to Bubblebeam being good for up to 14 with the most logical routing.

Even if you only want to give it credit for 7 - 9, note that Water Gun is a tier below Submission (good for 2 parts of 1 battle), and two tiers below Fire Blast (good for up to 7 battles)

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10 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Of the eight that learn Mega Punch that you could catch before Body Slam becomes available, three have an 40 BP stab move, one has a 65 BP move, two aren't physical attackers anyway. That just leaves Nidoqueen and Geodude that get a notable boost from it.

Nidoqueen learns Body Slam at 23, so it would be a very short-lived boost. ;): I would say that Clefairy and Jigglypuff also potentially get some mileage out of MP before you can teach them Body Slam.

I'm not nearly familiar with the intricacies of RBY to talk about optimal routing or anything like that, but isn't Bubblebeam also just a good STAB move for Squirtle before you can get Surf? It's also the best option for Meowth/Persian against rock types, fwiw.

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22 minutes ago, ping said:

I would say that Clefairy and Jigglypuff also potentially get some mileage out of MP before you can teach them Body Slam.

True, but their attack isn't great. I think their best use is taking advantage of Sing.

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I'm not nearly familiar with the intricacies of RBY to talk about optimal routing or anything like that, but isn't Bubblebeam also just a good STAB move for Squirtle before you can get Surf? It's also the best option for Meowth/Persian against rock types, fwiw.

Bubblebeam is better in a vacuum. But my argument is, Water Gun comes early enough to better help you through the awkward beginning when your options are very limited and your team isn't up and running yet.

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2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

I would, but 85% accuracy puts a damper on it. It's effectively 68 BP

Of the eight that learn Mega Punch that you could catch before Body Slam becomes available, three have an 40 BP stab move, one has a 65 BP move, two aren't physical attackers anyway. That just leaves Nidoqueen and Geodude that get a notable boost from it.

And a move that is effectively comparable to your best stab move (with the bonus) but in a different type, and/or capable of attacking a different defense is a good move to have.

 

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

 

Misty's Starmie is higher level than anything on Nugget Bridge, Route 6, Route 11, and all but one trainer on the SS Anne (not the rival). So I think it's logical to tackle her after those.

Its only logical to go to the S.S.Anne before Misty if you really are unable to beat Misty before that, as it will cost you a bit of extra time in the mid-game walking over to Vermilion to beat Surge and unlock Fly. That was a best possible case scenario for Water Gun usage versus the worst possible case scenario for Bubble Beam usage comparison, not normal routing.

 

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

 

Water Gun is good for  up to 16 - 18 battles before Surf, compared to Bubblebeam being good for up to 14 with the most logical routing.

Even if you only want to give it credit for 7 - 9, note that Water Gun is a tier below Submission (good for 2 parts of 1 battle), and two tiers below Fire Blast (good for up to 7 battles)

You are talking about a 40 power move here. Its not better than the moves you would have at that point in the game, and as such its main advantage is its coverage. If your team is capable of beating Misty before facing the second rival, Water Gun can easily see 0 battles before it becomes obsolete. Even if you do have to go all the way to the S.S. Anne with watergun, none of these battles are against trainers important enough to be notable, or memorable (unless the rival has charmander...and if the rival has charmander, not only should Misty be easier than the second rival, but most of the trainers water gun is supper effective against are also weak to Bulbasaur's stabs...). Meanwhile Bubble Beam is there to help deal with the infamous exploding hiker of Rock Tunnel, and the fourth mandatory rival battle at bare minimum (helping with the Fifth Rival, or a Giovanni fight is still in the cards as well, especially if you are trying a fast pace route...).

 

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10 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

And a move that is effectively comparable to your best stab move (with the bonus) but in a different type, and/or capable of attacking a different defense is a good move to have.

Some extra spending money from selling TM01 is also nice to have. Effectively comparable isn’t really an improvement or a notable power boost.

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Its only logical to go to the S.S.Anne before Misty if you really are unable to beat Misty before that, as it will cost you a bit of extra time in the mid-game walking over to Vermilion to beat Surge and unlock Fly.

It takes a couple of minutes. Unless you are speedrunning, it’s really not a big deal.

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.You are talking about a 40 power move here. Its not better than the moves you would have at that point in the game, and as such its main advantage is its coverage. If your team is capable of beating Misty before facing the second rival, Water Gun can easily see 0 battles before it becomes obsolete.

What kind of team composition is capable of beating both the rival and Misty as soon as you reach Cerulean, without spending a lot more than a couple of minutes grinding?

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Even if you do have to go all the way to the S.S. Anne with watergun, none of these battles are against trainers important enough to be notable, or memorable

The mandatory Hiker in route 25. If you choose Charmander, TM12 is your only reasonable option.

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Meanwhile Bubble Beam is there to help deal with the infamous exploding hiker of Rock Tunnel, and the fourth mandatory rival battle at bare minimum (helping with the Fifth Rival, or a Giovanni fight is still in the cards as well, especially if you are trying a fast pace route...).

That Hiker isn’t infamous. He’s an exp piñata.** In any case, Water Gun will definitely be sufficient, Bubblebeam is overkill.

The Tower Rival’s fire type is best dealt with Dig. Unlike Geodude, you don’t have 4x effectiveness so the power difference is not overkill.

Surf is a huge upgrade, is mandatory, and unlike Bubblebeam, is not gated behind a difficult boss fight.** There’s no logical basis to suggest you would get Bubblebeam ASAP but not Surf ASAP.

** Let’s compare the Rock Tunnel Graveler to Misty’s Starmie. Note that the Graveler is apparently an infamously tough opponent, whereas Starmie apparently can easily be fought whenever you feel like it.


Graveler’s Defenses: TM12 gives you a 160p-100a attack against 45 spdef. If you happen to have a water type, it’s 240p-200a.
 

Graveler’s Offenses: It can spam a 75p-65a move off 95 attack. It has a 200p-100a move that it can use once. It has 35 speed.
 

Starmie’s Defenses: TM01 gives you an 80p-85a move against 85 defense. If you happen to have Bulbasaur or Pikachu, you can use a 120p-100a move against 85 spdef.

Starmie’s Offenses: It can spam a 98p-100a move off 100 spatk. It has 115 speed.

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7 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Some extra spending money from selling TM01 is also nice to have. Effectively comparable isn’t really an improvement or a notable power boost.

Yes it is. Especially when it hits the weaker defense of the next major boss's ace, and can get past the enemy having a resistance to your stabs. Plus it IS noticeably higher damage when it hits.

 

3 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

What kind of team composition is capable of beating both the rival and Misty as soon as you reach Cerulean, without spending a lot more than a couple of minutes grinding?

The simple answer is one that has a Bulbasaur. One that has a Pikachu can probably power through it as well (although to be fair getting past Brock with a trained Pikachu probably means you have access to Bulbasaur, or grinded at lot before Brock). Alternatively you could give MegaPunch to a Squirtle and take advantage of his water resistance while hitting Starmie's weaker defense (tail whip uses really help as well, especially if Misty XDefends). Alternatively you could abuse sleep to beat Misty (its a bit RNG reliant, but can work).

 

12 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

The mandatory Hiker in route 25. If you choose Charmander, TM12 is your only reasonable option.

If you can't deal with a single Onix, how did you get past Brock?

 

24 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

That Hiker isn’t infamous. He’s an exp piñata. In any case, Water Gun will definitely be sufficient, Bubblebeam is overkill.

That Hiker is infamous. If you don't one shot his two geodude, and the graveler for any reason they can self destruct and take down pokes, in a point in the game before buyable revives, after three mandatory battles in rock tunnel softened you up, with one more mandatory battle to go before you can escape.

 

47 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

 

The Tower Rival’s fire type is best dealt with Dig. Unlike Geodude, you don’t have 4x effectiveness so the power difference is not overkill.

Could say the same thing about the optional trainers between Cerulean and the S.S.Anne...

 

51 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Surf is a huge upgrade, is mandatory, and unlike Bubblebeam, is not gated behind a difficult boss fight. There’s no logical basis to suggest you would get Bubblebeam ASAP but not Surf ASAP.

Bubblebeam is also mandatory to get, and an upgrade over every water move you are likely to have at that point. The logical basis for both those things is that it is faster routing. Neither are huge time saves, so if you can't do either route its not a huge deal, but if you can, you probably should.

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1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The simple answer is one that has a Bulbasaur. One that has a Pikachu can probably power through it as well (although to be fair getting past Brock with a trained Pikachu probably means you have access to Bulbasaur, or grinded at lot before Brock).
 

Bulbasaur also needs a lot of grind to beat Brock. Vine Whip is level 13. You could Leech Seed stall, but that is very inefficient.

The only way to quickly get past Brock is with Squirtle. You’ll need to train a Spearow to help with the rival, training a Pikachu on top of that to beat Misty is a significant time investment. And two minutes of extra walking is supposed to be too much of a time investment.

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Alternatively you could give MegaPunch to a Squirtle and take advantage of his water resistance while hitting Starmie's weaker defense (tail whip uses really help as well, especially if Misty XDefends). Alternatively you could abuse sleep to beat Misty (its a bit RNG reliant, but can work).

Those are hard sells without grinding. Your sleeper would need to be quite a high level to avoid being shredded by Starmie’s Bubblebeam.

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If you can't deal with a single Onix, how did you get past Brock?

Charmander’s Ember is better than Tackle/Scratch, but is still inefficient.

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That Hiker is infamous. If you don't one shot his two geodude, and the graveler for any reason they can self destruct and take down pokes,

If they didn’t have terrible speed, sp def, and two x4 special-based weaknesses, they would be a threat.

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Could say the same thing about the optional trainers between Cerulean and the S.S.Anne...

Yes, those fights are just as notable.

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Bubblebeam is also mandatory to get, and an upgrade over every water move you are likely to have at that point.

Past Pokémon Tower, you can get Surf at any time. Getting it before Silph Co. isn’t difficult, and makes the fights in there much easier.

 

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7 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Bulbasaur also needs a lot of grind to beat Brock. Vine Whip is level 13. You could Leech Seed stall, but that is very inefficient.

Beating Brock with a level 7 Bulbasaur is trivial, even on a no item run. Leech seed and growl utterly shuts Brock down to the point that it is kinda funny.

 

16 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Your sleeper would need to be quite a high level to avoid being shredded by Starmie’s Bubblebeam.

Part of why I said it may be RNG reliant, is Starmie only has a 1/4 chance of even using that move on its turn. Also you have the means to fully evolve your potential sleepers fairly easily for the extra stats, which might be enough to survive one if you have to...

 

25 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

If they didn’t have terrible speed, sp def, and two x4 special-based weaknesses, they would be a threat

Hence why BubbleBeam is so nice to have for that trainer...

 

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31 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Beating Brock with a level 7 Bulbasaur is trivial, even on a no item run. Leech seed and growl utterly shuts Brock down to the point that it is kinda funny.

In FE terms, it’s turtling.

31 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Part of why I said it may be RNG reliant, is Starmie only has a 1/4 chance of even using that move on its turn. Also you have the means to fully evolve your potential sleepers fairly easily for the extra stats, which might be enough to survive one if you have to...

The more exp/levels you get, the higher your stats will be, which will increase the reliability of your strategy. So the later you fight Misty (the strongest trainer in the pre-Cut section), the less time you waste resetting for RNG.

31 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Hence why BubbleBeam is so nice to have for that trainer...

Water Gun does the job...

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WRT Misty: So let's pretend we didn't get Bulbasaur because Squirtle's cuter.  Our options against Misty are:

- Pikachu (Thunder Wave, 8).  Will dish out damage, but crumples really quickly.  Paralysis is also RNG-based, so good luck.
- Butterfree (Sleep Powder, 17).  Bubblebeam will hurt, though.
- Jigglypuff (Sing/Disable, 17).  It should survive the 'beam, which means it's free to shut that nonsense down afterwards.  Assuming you predict it right.
- Clefairy (Sing, 13).  Same issues with Jigglypuff.  Can get Minimize at 24, which will help it to survive.  Maybe.
- Paras (Stun Spore, 13).  Unlike the others not named Butterfree, it will also hit for super-effective damage. . .with Leech Life at level 20.  It isn't much, but combine it with the half damage it's taking from Starmie's water moves and it's almost a decent option.  Gets the 100% sleep move, BUT it's stupidly late (27).
- Oddish (Sleep Powder, 19)/Bellsprout (Sleep Powder, 18).  This is what you're supposed to do.

And Starmie in R/B has three moves, so it's a 1/3 chance of Bubblebeam.  Use this info as you guys will!

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24 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Water Gun does the job...

The learn list for Water Gun is the same as the learn list for BubbleBeam, so why hamper yourself. Plus I don't think that necessarily holds water. This is before you get access to the good/super rid, and Water types become ubiquitous, so the only water type you could have is either the squirtle line (that learn watergun by levelup anyway...), or Gyrados, which means there is a solid chance you have to use the base 40 power of watergun without stab. The extra power on Bubblebeam really helps (especially against the Graveler), and while I did a few random damage calcs to satisfy my curiosity on the subject, If you want to suggest some mons that can learn these moves to do some damage calcs on, I will (if you want to do try running some yourself, its handy to remember that all trainer pokes have 9 DVs in attack, and 8 DVs in all other stats).

 

8 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

- Pikachu (Thunder Wave, 8).  Will dish out damage, but crumples really quickly.  Paralysis is also RNG-based, so good luck.
- Butterfree (Sleep Powder, 17).  Bubblebeam will hurt, though.
- Jigglypuff (Sing/Disable, 17).  It should survive the 'beam, which means it's free to shut that nonsense down afterwards.  Assuming you predict it right.
- Clefairy (Sing, 13).  Same issues with Jigglypuff.  Can get Minimize at 24, which will help it to survive.  Maybe.
- Paras (Stun Spore, 13).  Unlike the others not named Butterfree, it will also hit for super-effective damage. . .with Leech Life at level 20.  It isn't much, but combine it with the half damage it's taking from Starmie's water moves and it's almost a decent option.  Gets the 100% sleep move, BUT it's stupidly late (27).
- Oddish (Sleep Powder, 19)/Bellsprout (Sleep Powder, 18).  This is what you're supposed to do.

Good information! Although I will note that you have access to a moonstone to evolve the Clefairy and Jigglypuff for better stats (that does have the trade-off of stopping them from learning levelup moves, but the better stats might be worth it...).

 

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

 

And Starmie in R/B has three moves, so it's a 1/3 chance of Bubblebeam.  Use this info as you guys will!

I said 1/4  because the chance of Misty using an Xdefend instead of an attack is 1/4, which skews all the other moves chances to 1/4. Although looking back at my source for that she will only use one XDefend per poke, so it does revert to 1/3 after she uses it.

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3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The learn list for Water Gun is the same as the learn list for BubbleBeam, so why hamper yourself. 

Because superfluous TMs are a good source of money. Water Gun has a small but decisive availability advantage, and I contend you don't need Bubblebeam at all. The mandatory Cubone can be turtled/trivialised with your flying type, Water Gun should still handle that Hiker (see below) and the rival's Growlithe/Charmeleon fall to Dig. Once you reach Celadon, you can pick up Ice Beam, between that and Dig you don't need any water coverage from Game Corner and Pokemon Tower. At that point, there's no reason not to go pick up Surf

 

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The extra power on Bubblebeam really helps (especially against the Graveler), and while I did a few random damage calcs to satisfy my curiosity on the subject, If you want to suggest some mons that can learn these moves to do some damage calcs on, I will (if you want to do try running some yourself, its handy to remember that all trainer pokes have 9 DVs in attack, and 8 DVs in all other stats).

 
I tested it using VC Red, and I found Clefable reaching level 18 was the point it started being able to one-shot the Geodudes with Water Gun. The Graveler was a comfortable two-shot, admittedly, but worst case scenario is you eat the 25% chance of Selfdestruct, and you can reach Lavender Town without having to beat any more rock-types. So I maintain the extra power on Bubblebeam is overkill.
 
Incidentally, these are the simulation results I got:
 
Lvl 18 Clefable Water Gun vs. Lvl 21 Geodude: 40-48 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (40, 41, 41, 41, 41, 41, 41, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 43, 43, 43, 43, 43, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 46, 46, 46, 46, 46, 47, 47, 47, 47, 47, 48)
Lvl 18 Clefable Water Gun vs. Lvl 21 Graveler: 34-40 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- 58.8% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 40)
They don't match with my real experience, so I would recommend against relying on damage calculators. Or at least, that specific damage calculator.
 
 
 
 

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On 1/25/2021 at 2:43 AM, Eltosian Kadath said:

TM 38 Fire Blast (Cinnabar Gym): If any other fire TMs existed this might have fallen a place in the tier list, but it being the only way to add either fire coverage, or simply power up a Fire poke just barely pushes it here. Otherwise it is a bit of a mixed bag, its a late game TM, but many of the fire types that might want it tend to only be available later into the game as well, it might have the massive 120 power, but comes with accuracy issue to compensate.

I'm surprised to learn Flamethrower wasn't a TM until Gen III even though its counterparts were TMs from the get-go. Nowadays they're the most popular TMs out there. My memory must have mistakenly attributed TM status to Flamethrower pre-Gen III.

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On 1/28/2021 at 1:31 PM, Lord_Brand said:

I'm surprised to learn Flamethrower wasn't a TM until Gen III even though its counterparts were TMs from the get-go. Nowadays they're the most popular TMs out there. My memory must have mistakenly attributed TM status to Flamethrower pre-Gen III.

Take note: along with Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, Flamethrower is a tutor move in Crystal. You have to pay a ton of Game Corner Tokens to get them. So Ice Beam and Thunderbolt were TMs, then they weren't (in Gen II), and then they were again (alongside Flamethrower).

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