Maddening - What should I be spending my time doing?

[Dark Holy Elf]

If someone is going for C axes, it's only 40 armour exp to have a >60% chance of Armour Knight certification. Similarly, if you reach B axes and Weight-3, you can get a ~40% chance at Fortress Knight. It's definitely an option worth considering, and not as costly a detour as you might expect for some builds.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Graveless said:

It's tricky for many characters in NG, but unlocking Armor Knight and then never using it can be a godsend for making certain characters capable of surviving counter strikes(Lysithea) or hilariously powerful mix-phase fighters(Ingrid, Annette, and Petra) for quite some time because they'll often get +4 to +6 defense out of it. 

In particular, anyone you're having work on Axes can get there with a small amount of time spent on leveling armor and eventually get the - weight skill later on when you have the spare time to focus it again.

 

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If someone is going for C axes, it's only 40 armour exp to have a >60% chance of Armour Knight certification. Similarly, if you reach B axes and Weight-3, you can get a ~40% chance at Fortress Knight. It's definitely an option worth considering, and not as costly a detour as you might expect for some builds.

This sounds great on paper, but unfortunately, when considering that most of the characters that would benefit from this have a weakness in axes, heavy armour, or even both, I can't help but think this is questionable in practice, especially certifying for Fortress Knight.

[Dark Holy Elf]

44 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

This sounds great on paper, but unfortunately, when considering that most of the characters that would benefit from this have a weakness in axes, heavy armour, or even both, I can't help but think this is questionable in practice, especially certifying for Fortress Knight.

You're probably underestimating the number of units who can benefit from this. 12 Def is more than anyone has on average at Level 10, except Dedue and Catherine. 17 Def is more than anyone has on average at Level 20, except Dedue.

I suggested this practice for someone building axes anyway, so the cost of an axe bane, if any (e.g. for Wyvern Dimitri) is already baked in. I would agree it's usually too large an investment unless you're already building at least one of axes or armour, but that describes a decent number of units on a typical playthrough, at least for me. And of course, some will naturally want to build both for wyvern access and Weight-3, at which point the only cost of the certification is the price of the seals themselves.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

You're probably underestimating the number of units who can benefit from this. 12 Def is more than anyone has on average at Level 10, except Dedue and Catherine. 17 Def is more than anyone has on average at Level 20, except Dedue.

I suggested this practice for someone building axes anyway, so the cost of an axe bane, if any (e.g. for Wyvern Dimitri) is already baked in. I would agree it's usually too large an investment unless you're already building at least one of axes or armour, but that describes a decent number of units on a typical playthrough, at least for me. And of course, some will naturally want to build both for wyvern access and Weight-3, at which point the only cost of the certification is the price of the seals themselves.

Well, you have a point, but then we have characters like Mercedes and Constance, who have weaknesses in both axes and heavy armour. I can't justify trying to have them certify for Fortress Knight when that means heavily investing in two banes instead of something that'd actually be useful for them. Even if you were okay with the bare minimum pass chance, that's still a lot of investment, as you'd need C+ in both. It might be more justifiable for others who are strong in at least one of those, though.

[haarhaarhaar]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, you have a point, but then we have characters like Mercedes and Constance, who have weaknesses in both axes and heavy armour. I can't justify trying to have them certify for Fortress Knight when that means heavily investing in two banes instead of something that'd actually be useful for them. Even if you were okay with the bare minimum pass chance, that's still a lot of investment, as you'd need C+ in both. It might be more justifiable for others who are strong in at least one of those, though.

I don't think most people would consider Mercedes/Constance for this anyway, unless they were doing meme/challenge runs with them.

I would say that Fortress Knight is harder to get in reach of without a decently significant focus on Axes (B-rank at Lvl 20-ish when Axes aren't your main weapon isn't easy I think), and people who'd benefit from it the most would probably suffer relatively large opportunity costs. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, you have a point, but then we have characters like Mercedes and Constance, who have weaknesses in both axes and heavy armour. I can't justify trying to have them certify for Fortress Knight when that means heavily investing in two banes instead of something that'd actually be useful for them. Even if you were okay with the bare minimum pass chance, that's still a lot of investment, as you'd need C+ in both. It might be more justifiable for others who are strong in at least one of those, though.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting it for either of them at base. Armour Knight's not necessarily totally crazy, particularly with the sauna (which goes a long way to patching up banes over a short time period), and particularly if Byleth is training axes as well (e.g. for Brigand)... with Cichol statue at +1, prof expertise, and sauna [if you have it] you can get them to 9 exp per instruct, which is an average of 50-60 per week you instruct them, so getting this by the end of Chapter 6 is certainly doable. But it's still 280 exp that isn't going towards reason/faith/authority, which will slow access to some spells you might want to rush towards (Bolting/Rescue, Ragnarok/Fortify).

I'd focus less on if characters are strong/weak in these, and more on if they're building at least one of the skills anyway. So a mage who isn't getting Weight-3 or training axes is "probably not". But the list of units who can benefit from this without major investment is pretty long, because so many units want to get Death Blow.

[Bylift]

6 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I would say that Fortress Knight is harder to get in reach of without a decently significant focus on Axes (B-rank at Lvl 20-ish when Axes aren't your main weapon isn't easy I think), and people who'd benefit from it the most would probably suffer relatively large opportunity costs.

I've never gone into fortress for the stats alone, at least not on NG. It seemed pretty far out of the way. But maybe I'll give it a shot.

I have certified all my units (even mages and Bernadetta) in armor knight a couple times on NG for the bases in defense and HP and I think it's a pretty reasonable strategy, but like Dark Holy Elf and Shadow Mir have said it certainly delays your magic users getting some important spells.

Still, I would recommend the strategy for folks new to maddening NG as it really increases survivability of squishier units and makes the early/mid game more forgiving.

[wissenschaft]

I try to get armor knight cert. for every unit without a bane in Axe/heavy armor just because the increase in defense is really nice in the early/mid game. Its helps that I get D+ axes anyway for almost all physical units just for deathblow so D armor is a pretty easy additional goal to reach. For example, its great when your going into GD Maddening ch 7 and Claude, Hilda, Leonie, Sylvain, Raphael, and Ignatz all have def 12. It helps your team survivability quite a bit, often its equivalent to giving a free silver shield to each unit. I ignore giving armor knight cert to my squishy mages, they will still get ORKO post time skip and before then Its not that hard to ensure they never get attacked. The delay in spell progression is not worth 12 def on a unit I never wanted attack. Though you can do amusing stuff like Lysithea Nosferatu tanking with 12 def + vantage + 20 hit (people have made some weird and funky builds and still beat maddening).

The other great benefit to armor knight cert, is that it unlocks using Guard Adjutants which are a fantastic survival tool on maddening. My Ignatz ends up using a Steel Axe+ (you get one early game from a tournament) as his preferred weapon just because of its high might (he can accurately use it with his personal + linked attacks). Add Rapheal as an adjutant and Ignatz becomes decently tanky (he'll have 12 def as well from armor knight cert.) When I don't need Ignatz's speed rally, I can just switch this around and have Rapheal use Ignatz as a Guard Adjutant. This pair gives +3 MT to each other so its works great.

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by wissenschaft

[Shadow Mir]

19 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I don't think most people would consider Mercedes/Constance for this anyway, unless they were doing meme/challenge runs with them.

I would say that Fortress Knight is harder to get in reach of without a decently significant focus on Axes (B-rank at Lvl 20-ish when Axes aren't your main weapon isn't easy I think), and people who'd benefit from it the most would probably suffer relatively large opportunity costs. 

There are others, too, but those were examples.

That is what I was trying to say earlier, as most of the units that would stand to get the most benefit from this are mages, and I would consider it questionable at best for them.

[SnowFire]

2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That is what I was trying to say earlier, as most of the units that would stand to get the most benefit from this are mages, and I would consider it questionable at best for them.

This isn't just in reply to you, but I don't actually agree that mages benefit the most from the certify-for-Fortress-Knight-for-stats trick.  Yes, mages gain the most raw stat points, but mages don't generally use the improved defense that much.  Mages will still die if you stick them on the front lines in Maddening.  The main benefit is that yes, sometimes a mage can survive a single counterattack from a monster thanks to certifying in Fortress Knight.  But even that is questionable utility - against powerful monsters, you can very frequently either stun the monster first via shield break, or outrange the monster with Caduceus / Thrysus / Color Range +1, or use a Gambit, or worst comes to worst, just rely on cruddy monster accuracy and roll it back with Divine Pulse if the monster actually hits their 50% OHKO.  I guess it's handy vs. stuff like the 4-range Golems in the Crimson Flower final map that are annoying to outrange (especially if you didn't recruit Lorenz for Thrysus), but those might well OHKO anyway after a few buffs from the boss there.

(There's also that most mages not named Annette aren't training axes naturally, but that's more a side note.)

This isn't to say that the certify for FK trick is bad; on the contrary, I think it is quite good (if a little "unfair" since I doubt it was an intended mechanic).  Just its true usage is for front-liners.  Even though Wyvern Rider Petra / Ferdinand / Hilda / etc. gain fewer points of Defense from the trick than mages, they're far more likely to actually use their defense stat.  Even if you're only gaining 2-4 Defense, that's like 2 free Dracoshields.  A solid bargain if it's not too far out of the way in skill training.

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 hours ago, SnowFire said:

I guess it's handy vs. stuff like the 4-range Golems in the Crimson Flower final map that are annoying to outrange (especially if you didn't recruit Lorenz for Thrysus), but those might well OHKO anyway after a few buffs from the boss there.

Those golems hit res so Armour Knight certification won't help against them anyway. Your mages generally shouldn't be one-shotted by them unless they critical, which puts them in the same boats as everyone else there. (Since they have significant crit, you're probably best finding ways to avoid taking counters, e.g. by using a gambit to start the chain of barrier-breaking.)

Basically agree with what you said otherwise; it's medium-def frontliners who in practice benefit most from this.

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, SnowFire said:

This isn't just in reply to you, but I don't actually agree that mages benefit the most from the certify-for-Fortress-Knight-for-stats trick.  Yes, mages gain the most raw stat points, but mages don't generally use the improved defense that much.  Mages will still die if you stick them on the front lines in Maddening.  The main benefit is that yes, sometimes a mage can survive a single counterattack from a monster thanks to certifying in Fortress Knight.  But even that is questionable utility - against powerful monsters, you can very frequently either stun the monster first via shield break, or outrange the monster with Caduceus / Thrysus / Color Range +1, or use a Gambit, or worst comes to worst, just rely on cruddy monster accuracy and roll it back with Divine Pulse if the monster actually hits their 50% OHKO.  I guess it's handy vs. stuff like the 4-range Golems in the Crimson Flower final map that are annoying to outrange (especially if you didn't recruit Lorenz for Thrysus), but those might well OHKO anyway after a few buffs from the boss there.

(There's also that most mages not named Annette aren't training axes naturally, but that's more a side note.)

This isn't to say that the certify for FK trick is bad; on the contrary, I think it is quite good (if a little "unfair" since I doubt it was an intended mechanic).  Just its true usage is for front-liners.  Even though Wyvern Rider Petra / Ferdinand / Hilda / etc. gain fewer points of Defense from the trick than mages, they're far more likely to actually use their defense stat.  Even if you're only gaining 2-4 Defense, that's like 2 free Dracoshields.  A solid bargain if it's not too far out of the way in skill training.

Fair enough. However, golems attack resistance.

[SnowFire]

Yeah, I picked a bad example - was just trying to think of a sample really long-range monster that couldn't be easily trolled with Thoron, Mire, Caduceus, and friends.  Ah well.  (The extra defense would really help against birds since they tend to double you I guess?  But you don't actually fight that many enemy bird monsters post timeskip if I recall correctly, the big bird problems map is Sothis's paralogue which is too early for the FK trick, although I guess maybe AK certification would help a little.)

[5PointGordin]

15 hours ago, SnowFire said:

This isn't just in reply to you, but I don't actually agree that mages benefit the most from the certify-for-Fortress-Knight-for-stats trick.  Yes, mages gain the most raw stat points, but mages don't generally use the improved defense that much.  Mages will still die if you stick them on the front lines in Maddening.  The main benefit is that yes, sometimes a mage can survive a single counterattack from a monster thanks to certifying in Fortress Knight.  But even that is questionable utility - against powerful monsters, you can very frequently either stun the monster first via shield break, or outrange the monster with Caduceus / Thrysus / Color Range +1, or use a Gambit, or worst comes to worst, just rely on cruddy monster accuracy and roll it back with Divine Pulse if the monster actually hits their 50% OHKO.  I guess it's handy vs. stuff like the 4-range Golems in the Crimson Flower final map that are annoying to outrange (especially if you didn't recruit Lorenz for Thrysus), but those might well OHKO anyway after a few buffs from the boss there.

(There's also that most mages not named Annette aren't training axes naturally, but that's more a side note.)

This isn't to say that the certify for FK trick is bad; on the contrary, I think it is quite good (if a little "unfair" since I doubt it was an intended mechanic).  Just its true usage is for front-liners.  Even though Wyvern Rider Petra / Ferdinand / Hilda / etc. gain fewer points of Defense from the trick than mages, they're far more likely to actually use their defense stat.  Even if you're only gaining 2-4 Defense, that's like 2 free Dracoshields.  A solid bargain if it's not too far out of the way in skill training.

I could see Pavise being a situational useful skill pickup too. When using Lysithea, there were some cases where an ambush spawn or enemy I couldn't see in a fog of war map like Marraine's paralogue would have killed me, but because of the Pavise effect on Thyrsus, she survived an otherwise lethal round of combat. If Pavise and Thyrsus stack, that'd actually be pretty awesome since Lysithea's high dex would give her a high trigger rate on the effect. I could see it being pretty fun to use with Nosfuratu.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Yeah, I picked a bad example - was just trying to think of a sample really long-range monster that couldn't be easily trolled with Thoron, Mire, Caduceus, and friends.  Ah well.  (The extra defense would really help against birds since they tend to double you I guess?  But you don't actually fight that many enemy bird monsters post timeskip if I recall correctly, the big bird problems map is Sothis's paralogue which is too early for the FK trick, although I guess maybe AK certification would help a little.)

Well, you're right, but I would consider the real reason for that to be because they are outright immune to magic (at least while their armor is intact) - and guess what most methods of outranging those golems are?

1 hour ago, 5PointGordin said:

I could see Pavise being a situational useful skill pickup too. When using Lysithea, there were some cases where an ambush spawn or enemy I couldn't see in a fog of war map like Marraine's paralogue would have killed me, but because of the Pavise effect on Thyrsus, she survived an otherwise lethal round of combat. If Pavise and Thyrsus stack, that'd actually be pretty awesome since Lysithea's high dex would give her a high trigger rate on the effect. I could see it being pretty fun to use with Nosfuratu.

I dunno - if you have low defense, you'd still take massive damage even with Pavise. Also, I wouldn't consider Pavise/Nosferatu shenaigans worth it because aside from the general unreliability of Pavise, Nosferatu is a joke in this game.

[5PointGordin]

47 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, you're right, but I would consider the real reason for that to be because they are outright immune to magic (at least while their armor is intact) - and guess what most methods of outranging those golems are?

I dunno - if you have low defense, you'd still take massive damage even with Pavise. Also, I wouldn't consider Pavise/Nosferatu shenaigans worth it because aside from the general unreliability of Pavise, Nosferatu is a joke in this game.

Eh, Nosefuratu is still way better than it was in SoV since it has 80 hit instead of 60 hit. Though its weight is still a pretty big problem.

Pavise halves damage, so the more damage the opponet does, the more useful pavise is. If Lysithea has 40 HP, and opponent does 25x2, then a single pavise proc will allow her to survive an otherwise lethal blow. If she heals 15 HP from Nosefuratu, and procs double Pavise, then she will leave the exchange losing only 10 HP

Unlike other skills like lethality, Pavise scales directly off of Dex (rather than nonsense like Dex/4) and can be combined with the effects of hero's relics to allow for more reliability. I believe Lysithea would have a 51% chance to proc it if she had 30 dex. I think it can also be combined with the effects such as Adjutant Guard, allow for even more damage reduction, though to my knowledge, damage reduction stacking has diminishing returns.

Ultimately, this is more of a gimmick idea than anything concrete. It seems fun though, so I'll give it a try on my next NG+ run.

 

[Shadow Mir]

51 minutes ago, 5PointGordin said:

Eh, Nosefuratu is still way better than it was in SoV since it has 80 hit instead of 60 hit. Though its weight is still a pretty big problem.

Pavise halves damage, so the more damage the opponet does, the more useful pavise is. If Lysithea has 40 HP, and opponent does 25x2, then a single pavise proc will allow her to survive an otherwise lethal blow. If she heals 15 HP from Nosefuratu, and procs double Pavise, then she will leave the exchange losing only 10 HP

Unlike other skills like lethality, Pavise scales directly off of Dex (rather than nonsense like Dex/4) and can be combined with the effects of hero's relics to allow for more reliability. I believe Lysithea would have a 51% chance to proc it if she had 30 dex. I think it can also be combined with the effects such as Adjutant Guard, allow for even more damage reduction, though to my knowledge, damage reduction stacking has diminishing returns.

Ultimately, this is more of a gimmick idea than anything concrete. It seems fun though, so I'll give it a try on my next NG+ run.

I'd disagree - it has better hit, but that's literally the only good thing I can say about Nosferatu in 3H.

At the same time, with Lysithea having rock-bottom durability, I'd consider it infinitely better to just not chance it in the first place. Also, given that Thyrsus increases magic range, that idea would be VERY counter-intuitive.

Do we even know that Pavise would stack with the innate Pavise that you would get from having a relic accessory used by the unit with the right Crest...? Because I sure don't.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[5PointGordin]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd disagree - it has better hit, but that's literally the only good thing I can say about Nosferatu in 3H.

At the same time, with Lysithea having rock-bottom durability, I'd consider it infinitely better to just not chance it in the first place. Also, given that Thyrsus increases magic range, that idea would be VERY counter-intuitive.

Do we even know that Pavise would stack with the innate Pavise that you would get from having a relic accessory used by the unit with the right Crest...? Because I sure don't.

You can't proc pavise + Thyrsus at the same time (so no stacking DR there), but the probability of procing Pavise + Thyrsus = 1 - (1 - (dex/100))^2. So in that case, you would be making the skill more reliable even if your dex is middling.

However, I think its possible to proc Pavise + Guard Adjutant on follow-up attacks, in which case I believe the DR would stack, though I haven't seen much research on this, so I can't say for certain.

 

[haarhaarhaar]

10 hours ago, 5PointGordin said:

I could see Pavise being a situational useful skill pickup too.

I like giving it to tanks, who see so much combat that it inevitably triggers a lot. I also rate the Pavise/Aegis effects from relics (and Pavise in general), but chance-based activation means that it's always an uphill battle justifying the use of a skill slot for it.

4 hours ago, 5PointGordin said:

You can't proc pavise + Thyrsus at the same time (so no stacking DR there), but the probability of procing Pavise + Thyrsus = 1 - (1 - (dex/100))^2. So in that case, you would be making the skill more reliable even if your dex is middling.

This could matter if you're running Lysithea as a mixed attacker. Soulblade can get off about as much damage as her top spells, except in dealing effective damage/Luna vs mages, and with a greater number of uses than those spells. Extra Pavise could mitigate the subsequent risk of leaving her in range of enemies. It probably isn't reliable enough to ensure she survives more than an enemy or two per phase, and Lysithea probably has a lot of competition for skills depending on how much she's mastered. But yeah I could see you using it for her in that case. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Pavise requires Lysithea take 75 actions (or 38 with a Gem) in an absolutely terrible class for her, in addition to a minimum of 920 skill exp in two skills she has banes, so I'd definitely throw that in "gimmick/NG+ only" territory. I already consider Thyrsus's reduction to be basically irrelevant myself. I'm not exposing Lysithea (or Lorenz) to fatal damage unless I screw up.

 

[haarhaarhaar]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Pavise requires Lysithea take 75 actions (or 38 with a Gem) in an absolutely terrible class for her, in addition to a minimum of 920 skill exp in two skills she has banes, so I'd definitely throw that in "gimmick/NG+ only" territory.

Forgot about her banes, which would make Fortress Knight a pain even for her. Oh well, to the meme bin it goes.

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I already consider Thyrsus's reduction to be basically irrelevant myself. I'm not exposing Lysithea (or Lorenz) to fatal damage unless I screw up.

It's a shame, because before I bought the game I was really hopeful about the possibility of fielding armoured mages, which Edelgard and Lorenz particularly seemed to fit the bill for. Thyrsus would have fit right in with that fantasy version of Lorenz.

[5PointGordin]

8 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Forgot about her banes, which would make Fortress Knight a pain even for her. Oh well, to the meme bin it goes.

It's a shame, because before I bought the game I was really hopeful about the possibility of fielding armoured mages, which Edelgard and Lorenz particularly seemed to fit the bill for. Thyrsus would have fit right in with that fantasy version of Lorenz.

I mean, you can still technically do that, running forged Levin Sword / Bolt Axe / Vixkam instead of spells.

[wissenschaft]

Nothing will beat frozen lance spamming Lorenz. Its trivial to get him into OHKO benchmarks for frozen lance. Maddening melts to Frozen lance once Lorenz learns Fiendish blow.

Levin Sword+ for Marianne and Lysithea have utility. Though more often I'll have a steel sword+ for Lysithea when soul blade can secure a kill without using up limited magic spells like dark spikes. Very situational but fun to use, not like theres really anything else to learn once she gets A in both magic skills.

Edited April 23, 2022 by wissenschaft

[Bylift]

11 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Nothing will beat frozen lance spamming Lorenz. Its trivial to get him into OHKO benchmarks for frozen lance. Maddening melts to Frozen lance once Lorenz learns Fiendish blow

I'm wondering if others also find this to be true. In my limited experience using Frozen Lance Lorenz with fiendish blow and Mag+2, he couldn't meet the benchmarks on the last 2-3 maps for OHKO in Paladin. I ended up settling for dark knight so he could at least chip. Some of the enemies get real beefy in the final few chapters.

[wissenschaft]

39 minutes ago, Bylift said:

I'm wondering if others also find this to be true. In my limited experience using Frozen Lance Lorenz with fiendish blow and Mag+2, he couldn't meet the benchmarks on the last 2-3 maps for OHKO in Paladin. I ended up settling for dark knight so he could at least chip. Some of the enemies get real beefy in the final few chapters.

That just the last 2 to 3 chapters. Lysethia has trouble OHKO on those maps so basically EVERYONE DOES. It takes crit fishing to secure kills on those last maps. Do not judge characters based on the last 2 to 3 maps, those maps feature extreme HP bloat. For the rest of the game Lorenz is a OHKO champ whos one of the most RNG proof characters in the game. And yes, its a good plan to switch Lorenz into Dark Knight for the last few maps so he can better deal chip damage and recover his access to healing magic.

Edited April 23, 2022 by wissenschaft