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Remixed Legendary Heroes: New Skills Speculation!


Diovani Bressan
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They really need to do some HEAVY upgrading to Lyn. It's painful how much her Legendary variant has fallen, if it ever wasn't fallen to begin with. I've liked a lot of the suggestions here. Some form of Close Counter, getting a stat increase of 5 or 6 to all stats on BOTH player phase and enemy phase if 2/3 spaces away from an ally unit, and treating her as a 185 BST unit would be great. I'm just worried it's too much to hope for.

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8 hours ago, Roflolxp54 said:

It's worth noting that in the Feh Channel, Feh states that "some of them will be able to learn additional skills". While the immediate meaning would be that not every outdated Legendary Hero would be updated at once since Ike and Fjorm were the only ones updated, it could also imply that IS may not update certain Legendary Heroes at all or that IS could potentially give a unit more new skills than the amount Ike or Fjorm got.

Feh said:

Not only are they appearing in a new type of summoning event, but I hear some of them will be able to learn additional skills. To start things off, Legendary Heroes Ike and Fjorm will be learning additional skills.

It's pretty clear from the context that the "some of them will be able to learn additional skills" refers to exactly what Ike and Fjorm got. While it's certainly possible other units might get more skills, I don't see anything that implies for or against the possibility that they'd do so. It sounded to me like simply "we're going to start doing this, and here's the first batch".

As for which units will be getting new skills, I also don't think there's any reason to believe that they'd choose not update any of the older Legendary Heroes. To me, it sounds like the "some" specifically refers to "old" Legendary Heroes, not "we're going to arbitrarily pick and choose a few of them and the rest will never get one". I would certainly expect every Legendary Hero through Azura to eventually get a Remix, as the switch from stat effects to Pair Up marked a pretty big turning point in Legendary Heroes, both in terms of Pair Up's Duel effect making units viable for Arena scoring as well as a sudden spike in the strength of Legendary Heroes' exclusive skills and default skill sets.

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14 hours ago, Kaden said:

Fortress Res 4 or Fortress Def 4 do not exist, but they would probably pale in comparison to Fortress Def/Res 3. 

I highly doubt this. After Fortress Def/Res 3 has been out for so long, why would they release Fortress Def 4/Fortress Res 4 only for them to be worse? Most likely they would compare to Fortress Def/Res 3 the same way the current ones compare to Fortress Def/Res 2 (the seals, for example); The dual version is better for mixed tanks, the single versions are better for focused tanks. I imagine these theoretical tier 4 skills being something like +8 Def or Res, -2 atk.

4 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

They really need to do some HEAVY upgrading to Lyn. It's painful how much her Legendary variant has fallen, if it ever wasn't fallen to begin with. I've liked a lot of the suggestions here. Some form of Close Counter, getting a stat increase of 5 or 6 to all stats on BOTH player phase and enemy phase if 2/3 spaces away from an ally unit, and treating her as a 185 BST unit would be great. I'm just worried it's too much to hope for.

Yeah, Lyn was pretty much dead on arrival. Laws of Sacae as it is is just extremely dumb on a unit who is otherwise player phase focused.

While having CC is better than not, I don't think that would be very helpful for her. Even with +5 stat boosts her defensive stats just aren't good, and without a Mystic Boost effect she wouldn't even be able to use her maybe-passable Res against dragons. I'd rather it just drop any EP-focused effects and hyper-focus on offense.

Edited by Florete
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1 hour ago, Florete said:

I highly doubt this. After Fortress Def/Res 3 has been out for so long, why would they release Fortress Def 4/Fortress Res 4 only for them to be worse? Most likely they would compare to Fortress Def/Res 3 the same way the current ones compare to Fortress Def/Res 2 (the seals, for example); The dual version is better for mixed tanks, the single versions are better for focused tanks. I imagine these theoretical tier 4 skills being something like +8 Def or Res, -2 atk.

Fortress skills are pretty bad as combat skills though. Not only do they decrease your Atk, they also visibly increase your Def/Res, making the unit more susceptible to being hit by Chills. Bracing Stance can do what Fortress Def/Res can do without those weaknesses, as well as having Guard on top. In my opinion, Fortress skills are better utilized as support skills.

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3 minutes ago, XRay said:

Fortress skills are pretty bad as combat skills though. Not only do they decrease your Atk, they also visibly increase your Def/Res, making the unit more susceptible to being hit by Chills. Bracing Stance can do what Fortress Def/Res can do without those weaknesses, as well as having Guard on top. In my opinion, Fortress skills are better utilized as support skills.

When I said "tanks" I just meant any unit who wants the stat as high as possible. I know there are better skills for actual combat.

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2 hours ago, Florete said:

Yeah, Lyn was pretty much dead on arrival. Laws of Sacae as it is is just extremely dumb on a unit who is otherwise player phase focused.

Conversely, Desperation is just extremely dumb on a unit that is otherwise enemy-phase focused because that's what Legendary Lyn was. Both of Lyn's exclusive skills, Swift Mulagir and Laws of Sacae are enemy-phase skills.

I believe Lyn was the first ranged Spd tank. The problem was that Spd tanking wasn't really a necessary role back then and when that role started gaining relevance, new units showed up that did the job better, like Norne, Midori, and now Shinon and Henriette; new skills showed up that rendered Laws of Sacae obsolete, namely Distant Def 4; and new skills showed up that allowed melee units to make up for the loss of the passive A slot to Distant Counter, namely the Evasion skills.

Lyn is still a decent Spd tank in PvE content, but with the growing prevalence of guaranteed follow-ups and the ever-present Spd creep, she isn't able to keep up in PvP content.

Laws of Sacae is now extremely underwhelming as a skill, as it is effectively just an enemy-phase Fury 4 with no recoil, giving her none of the benefits of more powerful enemy-phase passive A skills, like Dull Ranged on Distant Def 4 or Guard on the Stance skills, while also not providing her enough defenses to keep up with the over-the-top offence creep of the past year.

 

If they really want to make Lyn viable in her original role, they don't need to give her a Duel skill for 185 total stats. They pretty much have to actually give her 185 total stats.

Shinon with his base kit has 215 points of stats excluding his weapon's Mt, conditional only on having no adjacent allies.

Legendary Claude with just his weapon has 186 points of stats excluding his weapon's Mt, conditional only on having more than 25% HP. With the rest of his base kit (and only one stack of Catch), he has 208 points of stats plus 80% damage reduction on the first hit per round of combat on player phase plus Null Follow-Up plus Glare. Sure, he's not a ranged tank, but he's still the bulkiest bow user in the game on player phase (in terms of actually soaking up damage and not just avoiding getting hit).

Lyn with her entire base kit has only 180, conditional on being on enemy phase, on having more allies than enemies within 2 squares, and on having at least 2 allies within 2 squares. With Lull Atk/Spd to match Shinon, she'd have 189 points.

Heck, even Norne with a Spd refine on her default weapon and no passive skills at all still has 184 points of stats excluding her weapon's Mt (which is also 2 lower than Lyn's). Again, with Lull Atk/Spd, she'd have 193 points.

In order to match Shinon, who is the current cream of the crop for ranged Spd tanks, she needs to make up not only a difference of 26 points of stats, which is already utterly insane on its own, but also the huge number of hoops her skills need to activate. That's basically saying Laws of Sacae needs to grant a total of something like +10/10/11/11 with a more lenient condition in order for her to remain competitive.

With just how badly she's outmatched by Shinon and Claude, I think it would at least be fair to have Laws of Sacae II improved to this:

If unit is within 2 spaces of an ally, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 to unit during combat, reduces damage from area-of-effect Specials by 80% (excluding Røkkr area-of-effect Specials), reduces damage from foe's first attack by 80%, neutralizes effects that guarantee foe's follow-up attacks, and foe cannot make a follow-up attack.

Which, despite all of the effects, still makes her worse than Claude. The stat boost only matches the stat boost from Failnaught. The percentage damage reduction only matches the damage reduction from Fallen Star. Great Flame's go-fuck-yourself levels of follow-up prevention is comparable to Failnaught's Null Follow-Up. Swift Mulagir's Atk, Spd, and Res boost is inferior to Atk/Spd Catch 4's Atk and Spd boost, losing by 1 total point. And Lyn still loses in base stats by 15 points, though that can be reduced to only 10 points due to Dragonflowers. And Fallen Star still inflicts Gravity. And Failnaught still has the Slaying effect.

I guess to not make Lyn a complete Claude clone, we could do this instead:

If unit is within 2 spaces of an ally, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 to unit during combat, inflicts Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack, reduces damage from area-of-effect Specials by 80% (excluding Røkkr area-of-effect Specials), reduces damage from foe's first attack by 80%, neutralizes effects that guarantee foe's follow-up attacks, and foe cannot make a follow-up attack.

Or because I want to:

If unit is within 2 spaces of an ally, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 to unit during combat, inflicts Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack, reduces damage from area-of-effect Specials by 80% (excluding Røkkr area-of-effect Specials), reduces damage from foe's first attack by 80%, neutralizes effects that guarantee foe's follow-up attacks, and foe cannot make a follow-up attack.

If a foe uses bow, dagger, magic, or staff and initiates combat against an ally within 2 spaces of unit, triggers 【Savior】 on unit.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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20 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Hmm... If Fjorm and Ike didnt get that, Lyn will not too.

The main difference here is that Fjorm and Ike do not have Prf A-skills; they have Prf special skills in Ice Mirror and Radiant Aether respectively, so they don't conflict with B Duel Infantry and R Duel Infantry respectively. Lyn has a Prf A-skill, which conflicts with the G Duel Infantry skill, which is currently her optimal A-skill in her main intended use case (Arena modes). It is for this reason that Lyn's Laws of Sacae II would be required to have a Duel effect at minimum if IS wants to see Lyn being used if at all in at least Arena modes. Sure, Hrid and Gunnthra would be screwed score-wise but players generally don't complain about them since they're already at least decent combat units whereas Lyn only beats them at score and doesn't do a particular task (combat, support, unique gimmick) particularly well when compared to other Wind options (or any Legendary Hero in general).

 

Spoiler

Non-weapon Prf skills each Legendary Hero has (and slot the skill occupies); bolded units with a Prf A-skill:
Fjorm: Ice Mirror (Special)
Gunnthra: Chilling Seal (B-skill)
Ike: Radiant Aether (Special)
Ephraim: Solar Brace (B-skill)
Robin: Dragonskin (A-skill)
Lyn: Laws of Sacae (A-skill)

Ryoma: Bushido (B-skill)
Hector: Ostia's Pulse (C-skill)
Lucina: Future Vision (Assist)
Marth: Binding Shield (B-skill)
Tiki: With Everyone! (C-skill)
Eirika: Lunar Brace (B-skill)
Hrid: Freezing Seal (B-skill)
Azura: Gray Waves (Assist)
Roy: Human Virtue (C-skill)
Alm: Lunar Flash (Special)
Eliwood: Visions of Arcadia (C-skill)
Julia: Light and Dark (B-skill)
Leif: Njorun's Zeal (Special), S Drink (B-skill)
Celica: Soul of Zofia (B-skill)
Chrom: To Change Fate! (Assist)
Edelgard: Raging Storm (B-skill)
Seliph: Holy War's End (B-skill)
Corrin: Negating Fang (Special)
Dimitri: Atrocity (B-skill)
Lilina: Gifted Magic (Special)
Claude: Fallen Star (B-skill)

Dang, Lyn and Grima are the only units with Prf A-skills. However C Duel Flying doesn't exist at all so the Duel effect problem is still pretty much unique to Lyn.

 

Edited by Roflolxp54
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  • 2 months later...
On 2/2/2021 at 9:04 AM, Diovani Bressan said:

Gunnthrá: Voice of Dreams
Chilling Seal II could affect more foes. For example, what if it inflict Atk/Spd-6 on the foe with the lowest Def... and also all foes adjacent to that foe. I would say 2 spaces, which would make her more viable, but maybe it's too much. lol

Yeah... I was actually thinking too little. lol

Gunnthrá is so fun to use now. Being able to inflict -7 too all stats on one foe (or multiple, if they have the same Def) and Atk/Res-7 on all foes around that first foe is crazy! Gunnthrá can easily get like... +40 plus Atk on it.

Edited by Diovani Bressan
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1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Yeah... I was actually thinking too little. lol

Gunnthrá is so fun to use now. Being able to inflict -7 too all stats on one foe (or multiple, if they have the same Def) and Atk/Res-7 on all foes around that first foe is crazy! Gunnthrá can easily get like... +40 plus Atk on it.

-7 to all stats gives +28 Blizzard damage. If you also count the extra 7 from their Res being lower, that's 35.

Quite a call!

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1 hour ago, Othin said:

-7 to all stats gives +28 Blizzard damage. If you also count the extra 7 from their Res being lower, that's 35.

Quite a call!

Yeah. I should have mentioned that i was using Atk/Spd Solo Seal as well, which brings to above +40 Atk.

In the screenshot below that I took this morning while doing the daily arena matches, Gunnthrá has her Atk/Res Solo 4 and Atk/Spd Solo 3, and Dorothea has Drive Atk and Drive Spd.

FIjY73B.png

She is indeed very fun to use. I hope I can merge her up. She is +4 right now. She was using Spd/Res Solo Seal in this one.

0Y7EiCt.png

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11 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Yeah. I should have mentioned that i was using Atk/Spd Solo Seal as well, which brings to above +40 Atk.

In the screenshot below that I took this morning while doing the daily arena matches, Gunnthrá has her Atk/Res Solo 4 and Atk/Spd Solo 3, and Dorothea has Drive Atk and Drive Spd.

FIjY73B.png

She is indeed very fun to use. I hope I can merge her up. She is +4 right now. She was using Spd/Res Solo Seal in this one.

0Y7EiCt.png

Oh, total buffs including other skills. That makes sense. Nice!

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48 minutes ago, Rinco said:

I'm excited for Tiki's Remix later this year. I have her at +5 and use her in Arena as my Earth legendary. Hoping that she gets something good.

I can see she getting Mov+1 from With Everyone!, and improving the buffs from Def/Res+5 to Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5. And also, I would say improve the range of With Everyone!

So it would be...

At start of turn, if an ally is within 2 spaces of unit, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 to unit and adjacent allies for 1 turn, and unit can move 1 extra space.

I don't see her granting Mov+1 to allies as well, but all the stats... for sure. Pretty much Fae's Eternal Breath, but also grants Mov+1 to the user.

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56 minutes ago, Naoshi said:

w5oxf941hvy61.png

Updated Remix Calendar. I think this confirms Lyn and Grima Remix on July and Ephrahim and Hector on September

That seems pretty compelling. I wonder if Fjorm, Lyn, and Grima will get their refines in July, as well.

It'll be interesting to see where Ike and Fjorm show up on the calendar after their current reruns, with the calendar suggesting we may be getting Marth/Tiki and Eirika/Lucina in red and blue for November and December. Could double up, of course.

Edited by Othin
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On 5/7/2021 at 2:26 AM, Diovani Bressan said:

I can see she getting Mov+1 from With Everyone!, and improving the buffs from Def/Res+5 to Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5. And also, I would say improve the range of With Everyone!

So it would be...

At start of turn, if an ally is within 2 spaces of unit, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 to unit and adjacent allies for 1 turn, and unit can move 1 extra space.

I don't see her granting Mov+1 to allies as well, but all the stats... for sure. Pretty much Fae's Eternal Breath, but also grants Mov+1 to the user.

I think her C skill gets the Fae/Edelgard treatment. She gives out +5 to all stats out to allies within 2 spaces and herself and she gets the ability to move 2 spaces or to a space adjacent to allies within 2 spaces. Thats what i am expecting.

As for Hectors Ostian pulse: i think they will remove the different movement restriction and turn it into a Teams times pulse and give him some beefed up Far Save into it.

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36 minutes ago, Hilda said:

As for Hectors Ostian pulse: i think they will remove the different movement restriction and turn it into a Teams times pulse and give him some beefed up Far Save into it.

Interesting... I didn't think about Save skill for him. I agree with the Pulse effect without restriction though.

For his new inheritable skill... maybe Craft Fighter I guess... or an idea that I had before: giving him Brave Hector's Ostian Counter. It is an improvement of Distant Counter.

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The secret best part of these remixes is that these legendaries that previously spooked me will finally be getting good fodder I can use them for.  Dragon's Ire 3 for FGrima, please.  I'll take Atk/Res Rein too.

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Remix calendar looks like:

July - Lyn and Robin
Sept - Ephraim and Hector
Nov - Marth and Tiki
Jan - Eirika and Lucina

As far as Legendary, Hrid, Azura, Roy, and Alm (in that order) are in line next, though if we include Mythics it's Hrid, Eir, Azura, Duma, Roy, Yune, Alm. Eir is next appearing in July and I wouldn't be surprised if her appearance after that is March or May 2022 for her own remix. Hrid as well, after his September appearance.

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16 hours ago, Florete said:

As far as Legendary, Hrid, Azura, Roy, and Alm (in that order) are in line next, though if we include Mythics it's Hrid, Eir, Azura, Duma, Roy, Yune, Alm. Eir is next appearing in July and I wouldn't be surprised if her appearance after that is March or May 2022 for her own remix. Hrid as well, after his September appearance.

For Hríd, I expect the same thing as Gunnthrá but with Atk/Def-6 for foes within 2 spaces of unit with lowest Res.

I wonder what Eir's Sparling Boost II can do... Maybe be like Chilling Seal, and work in units within 2 spaces of the target? We can easily increase the healing, and even add a "nullify penalties", like Odd Recovery.

Something like this: "At start of turn, neutralizes any [Penalty] and restores 10 HP to ally that has been dealt the most damage and allies within 2 spaces of that unit. (Excludes unit.)"

For Azura, what I can think is removing the Infantry and Flying allies limitation, so she can grant Mov+1 too cavalry and armored allies too. But they may add another effect... 

For Duma... increase the damage from 7  to 10, and maybe make it trigger every third turn instead of only once?

"At the start of every third turn, deals 10 damage to all foes, and if defending in Aether Raids during anima season, destroys offensive structure within same column as unit. (Does not affect structures that cannot be destroyed.)"

For Roy, Human Virtue II could grant Def/Res+6 as well I guess. Maybe another effect too

For Yune, make her range be horizontally as well instead of being only vertical, and inflict -5 to all foe's stats instead of target only the  highest of foe's stats, and with no Res condition. Pretty much give her Arvis and Saias effect, but to all stats and not only Atk/Res.

"At start of turn, inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res-5 on foes within 3 columns or 3 rows centered on unit through their next actions."

Then we have Alm... which has a Prf special skill. I will say just boost the percentages: both from 20% to 40%.

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1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

For Azura, what I can think is removing the Infantry and Flying allies limitation, so she can grant Mov+1 too cavalry and armored allies too. But they may add another effect... 

I am hoping for penalty neutralization on top of buffing all stats to +6 for Prayer Wheel, so she can run something besides Earth Dance/Water Dance on the Sacred Seal. It will be even better if it affects all allies within 2 spaces at start of turn rather than just the target, although that might be too powerful.

As for Gray Waves, I am hoping they will add Raging Storm to the target. That way, ranged units can Galeforce too.

1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

For Duma... increase the damage from 7  to 10, and maybe make it trigger every third turn instead of only once?

"At the start of every third turn, deals 10 damage to all foes, and if defending in Aether Raids during anima season, destroys offensive structure within same column as unit. (Does not affect structures that cannot be destroyed.)"

Every third turn feels a bit weak in my opinion, and I think it would be better if it were at the start of every turn. On the other hand, every turn might make Duma horrible as a defense Mythic since he could easily trigger Wings of Mercy for the offensive player.

Maybe it might be better to deal damage once, but can destroy Structures (on both defense and offense) at the start of every turn.

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2 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

For Duma... increase the damage from 7  to 10, and maybe make it trigger every third turn instead of only once?

57 minutes ago, XRay said:

Every third turn feels a bit weak in my opinion, and I think it would be better if it were at the start of every turn. On the other hand, every turn might make Duma horrible as a defense Mythic since he could easily trigger Wings of Mercy for the offensive player.

I think something like this could work pretty well:

At the start of turn 1, deals 7 damage to all foes, and if defending in Aether Raids during anima season, destroys offensive structure within same column as unit. (Does not affect structures that cannot be destroyed.)

At start of turn, deals damage to foes within 3 spaces equal to 15-X (X = 5 × number of spaces between unit and foe).

The second effect is based off of the AoE attacks from Dheginhansea and Ashera, which decay in damage over distance. Range is 3 to make up for dealing less damage than Sinmara and allows it to affect all opponents reachable by Duma when he has +1 movement. The decay also lowers the risk of activating pesky low-HP skills on opponents.

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Lyn would pretty much need to have a Duel effect that puts her at no lower than 180 BST scoring bin as one of the passive effects for Laws of Sacae II. 175 BST would no longer be enough for her unless Laws of Sacae II has other, powerful effects due to the existence of Duel Cavalry skills; as it stands, Hrid can actually score better than Lucina and Lyn since R Duel Cavalry exists and Hrid has a Prf B-skill in Freezing Seal -- it's only a matter of time before Gunnthra, who has Chilling Seal (II), also scores better than Lucina or Lyn with the likely inevitable release of G Duel Cavalry. Lucina already has a very good Prf positional assist skill which already makes her much more of an interesting unit than Lyn is.

Lyn would need to have something big going for her in order to stand out as a unit, especially since she's currently not a particularly good unit in both combat (generally considered the worst Legendary Hero) or scoring (she and Lucina are currently tied for 2nd lowest scoring Wind Legendary Heroes and they would become the lowest scoring Wind Legendary Heroes once G Duel Cavalry 4 becomes available).

With Legendary Ryoma receiving a major upgrade in Bushido II (alongside his Raijinto refine), perhaps Lyn could receive something good.

Hard to say for what sort of skills Lyn would be wanting as part of her base kit since she has a multitude of problems, especially since her intended use case is Arena modes. I also wouldn't expect Lyn to receive a refine update for Swift Mulagir; Ryoma and Ike are currently just exceptions since they only got their refines from sharing their Prf weapons with their OG versions.
-Mediocre/low (52 listed Atk at +10+15 without Atk Asset and with Swift Mulagir equipped; 57 in-combat if Lyn meets the allies check).
-Low Def (28 listed Def at +10+15 without Def asset or with any skills equipped).
-Her Spd's OK but nothing to write home about (46 listed Spd at +10+15 with Spd Asset and with Swift Mulagir equipped; 51 in-combat if Lyn meets the allies check).
-Mediocre Res (37 listed Res without Res asset or with any skills equipped).
-Her Prf skills lack clear synergy; both skills require her to surround herself with allies but her A-skill requires the foe to initiate to have any effect whatsoever while her weapon grants only offensive boosts during combat.

Possible new base skills:
Deadeye: could be good for Legendary Claude, CYL Edelgard, and CYL/Legendary Dimitri; not useful for Ryoma since Ryoma has Iote's Shield in Bushido II and Ryoma has color advantage over Lyn.
Null Follow-Up: Could help Lyn do some damage since Impact and armored Fighter skills are common in Arena but may be perceived as a waste due to how many units in the regular pool have NFU (6 units in the regular pool; 4 of which are green) and can mean little if Lyn couldn't do damage anyways
Ruptured Sky: would be great for her, especially since Lyn doesn't come with a special by default but that assumes IS would even consider giving Ruptured Sky to somebody not named Byleth
Lull Atk/Def, Lull Atk/Spd, or Lull Spd/Def: they all could be very helpful since Rally assists are ubiquitous in Arena
Ruse skills: wouldn't be surprised if this gets thrown in since Lyn does have Rally Def/Res by default; of course, IS could cheap out and just give her Rally Def/Res+, which would be a huge OOF.
Time's Pulse: an impossibility since Lyn doesn't have a base special (unless IS decides to give multiple new skills to Lyn)
Joint Drive skills: could be useful and can synergize well if she still uses the allies check

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