Ashe or Ingrid for best dancer candidate in Blue Lions

[RainbowMoon]

17 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

It's difference between one rounding 1-2 enemies on Enemy Phase and wiping out entire sections of enemies. 

Well, to be fair, Dimitri "kill every last one of them" Blaiddyd is gonna be way better at that than Ingrid or Petra. Just set him up with B.Vantage/B.Wrath, get him targeted by as many enemies as possible and grab some popcorn.

18 hours ago, Barren said:

I'm still somewhat torn on if I want him to be my Dancer or not but I know stat boosters exists. If I go down this way, this would free up Ingrid on her other more notable roles like Falcon Knight and be a reliable mage killer. Ashe is just unimpressive as we all know as the game goes on. Yes he can do Sniper but others out class him. If I don't chose dancer for him then I could make him a gambit bot Paladin where all he'll mostly do is provide gambit support like stride, blessing, etc. Maybe it might be a wasted spot but if I want him to open up doors and chests when available he's there for the job.

Ashe may not have much else going for him, but he's got an amazing dex growth and he learns Deadeye, both of which serve him best as a Sniper. With a build focused on crit stacking (something like Bow Prowess, Death Blow, Hit +20, Dexterity +4, Killer Bow+, Critical Ring, Fraldarius Soldiers), he shouldn't have any trouble holding his own late game. He'll still be outclassed as a Sniper by Shamir or other recruits like Leonie, but he should be able to reliably secure crits from a long distance. Which can come in handy on some of the later Blue Lions maps like Derdriu or Enbarr where enemy archers are protected by walls. Fielding him as a gambit bot might be viable if you plan to use a lot of strategies that rely on gambits (warp/stride map skips, dancer battalion shenanigans, etc.) but otherwise going that route with him may be a bit underwhelming.

Overall though, it looks like you've got a really strong team setup there.

[ruruo]

On 2/18/2021 at 10:56 PM, Barren said:

For Ashe I was considering a support gambit bot Paladin if I was going to use Ingrid as a Dancer. Because he is unimpressive otherwise. Plus while his speed isn't bad, his charm growth isn't the best. But if I have to, I'll waste stat boosters on him to get him at least 13 charm. I double checked the battles ahead of Azure Moon and like you all pointed out it is mage heavy so Ingrid as a Falcon Knight would be the girl for the job. I guess what I am figuring out is can Ingrid excel as something else aside from flier. In fairness to that, if it ain't broke, no need to fix it.

Ahh That makes sense, yeah I think for a support role Dancer would fit Ingrid really well. As other have said, she would also make for a really good Dancer. 

Your team looks really good, regardless of who you pick for dancer. Yay for Axe Annette! I don't think it's worth it going down Peg Knight for Annette at all. She is slow. I had pretty good results taking her down the cavalry route with Valkyrie and Dark Knight. It'll give her access to Uncanny Blow, and battalions with higher magic and hit bonuses.  

Windsweep is good on Dimitri, it does come in handy now and again. For Battalion Vantage/Wrath shenanigans Hit+20 is great, and having Curved Shot from Bows on Dimitri is also pretty nice.  

imho if you want to bring his Authority up to A, Ashe as is a pretty good carrier for Retribution as a Sniper from Indech's battalion.  He'll likely not see enemy phase much and it patches him up a bit with Mt, Hit and Crit bonuses. 

 

 

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 2/19/2021 at 7:48 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

I also think you're downplaying just how much of an advantage B. Wrath really is. Like compare a Lategame Ingrid's Performance to a Wyvern with Battalion Wrath. It's difference between one rounding 1-2 enemies on Enemy Phase and wiping out entire sections of enemies. 

If Battalion Wrath lets you one-round an entire section of enemies, then the same setup without Battalion Wrath will one-round half of those enemies, due to having ~50 crit instead of ~100. That's obviously worse, but it's also "good enough", because it injures those enemies and makes them super-easy to sweep through and clean up. Ingrid's higher res means she doesn't need support from Sacred Shield, her higher charm makes her more resistant to gambits (which are deadly to this build), and her supports with AM units allow those units to hit more easily on the player phase. I definitely think you're downplaying the other advantages.

With dodgetanks I personally find I don't need them to kill everything. Kills are nice, but not the point. They bait out difficult formations, do some damage back, and then I can go through and kill every last one of them with ease. As such, IMO, the best dodge-tanks are the ones who are best at dodging... and with her high speed, D base + flying boon which she can start training immediately, and resistance to the attacks which most easily slip through dodgetank builds via Res/Charm, Ingrid has a strong claim to be the best one on AM. Again, to be clear, I do think Petra is also very good too, and yes, having Battalion Wrath (and at C, at that) is a legit advantage (although I'm not as in love with it as you, as I find it a bit finnicky to manage battalion HP properly, but I do recognize its power on a dodgetank and especially on Dimitri).

[LoneRecon400]

Even if you wanted to ignore the substantial amount of difference in combat and the fact that could just a unit with Impregnable Wall could fulfill your needs of a dodgetank, it still does not make Ingrid a great dodgetank. High Speed isn't even necessary for some dodgetanks as you can easily get a Brawling unit to 95 avoid off of Grappler's Base Speed alone without even needing to wait on Player Phase.

And can I just say having high Charm isn't much of a boon? Any unit can get +2 Charm a month just through tea parties. Considering you can easily have 7 Activity points by Chapter 6, Charm isn't a particularly demanding stat to have. Resistance also doesn't matter that much since you should be looking to avoid hits, not take them. Even then, she's also still regularly 2-3 hit KO'd by mages, which around what most physical units when you account for Blessing. 

Claiming that Ingird can be a decent dodgetank is acceptable, but claiming she is the best one in AM because of her Speed and supports? That's just overlooking how ineffective her combat is as well not considering how much better the other options are.

Edited February 21 by LoneRecon400

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If Battalion Wrath lets you one-round an entire section of enemies, then the same setup without Battalion Wrath will one-round half of those enemies, due to having ~50 crit instead of ~100. That's obviously worse, but it's also "good enough", because it injures those enemies and makes them super-easy to sweep through and clean up. Ingrid's higher res means she doesn't need support from Sacred Shield, her higher charm makes her more resistant to gambits (which are deadly to this build), and her supports with AM units allow those units to hit more easily on the player phase. I definitely think you're downplaying the other advantages.

The problem is, as those pictures with Ingrid demonstrated, if she doesn't kill the first ememies to get to her, then a lot of the follow-up enemies won't even have a chance to get adjacent to her. So, instead of a ~50% chance of one-shotting the "second wave", she has a 0% chance (contingent, of course, on the first coin flip coming up "tails"). I agree about the Charm advantage, and that she doesn't need Sacred Shield, but for a different reason - her Avoid boosts make siege tomes almost certain to miss regardless, so her Res is irrelevant.

14 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Claiming that Ingird is a good dodgetank is one thing, but claiming she is the best one in AM because of her Speed and supports? That's just overlooking how ineffective her combat is as well not considering how much better the other options are.

Which of the other Blue Lions have a boon in Flight? Among that group, Ingrid is the best dodgetank, because she has the easiest road to the Alert Stance skills. I wouldn't consider her ability to damage the foe as relevant to how she does, strictly as a "dodgetank".

As for tea parties, I would actually say they're an argument in favor of mid-Charm units, like Ingrid. Enemies with offensive gambits can get seriously high Charm late in Maddening. So while a mid-Charm unit will only take a few tea parties to keep up, a lower-Charm unit will require a lot more - thus demanding more activity points. On top of this, sometimes your students just turn down your invitation, so it's not exactly a reliable boosting method.

[LoneRecon400]

39 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Which of the other Blue Lions have a boon in Flight? Among that group, Ingrid is the best dodgetank, because she has the easiest road to the Alert Stance skills. I wouldn't consider her ability to damage the foe as relevant to how she does, strictly as a "dodgetank".

As for tea parties, I would actually say they're an argument in favor of mid-Charm units, like Ingrid. Enemies with offensive gambits can get seriously high Charm late in Maddening. So while a mid-Charm unit will only take a few tea parties to keep up, a lower-Charm unit will require a lot more - thus demanding more activity points. On top of this, sometimes your students just turn down your invitation, so it's not exactly a reliable boosting method.

Alert Stance isn't the only way to Dodgetank. Brawl Avoid +20 with other Avoid Boosters is enough to get 80 Avoid before even considering AS. Plus if you really wanted, you could just slap on regular Alert Stance for 95 Avoid since B Flying is easily obtainable with Sauna. That's as much Avoid as Ingrid is going to have without a single Speed Proc.

Very few enemies have over 40 Charm. With 2 Tea Parties over the course of 10 Chapters, that's +20 Charm. Combine that with +7 from a B Rank Battalion and even a unit with mediocre Charm like Felix who only averages 18 Charm at level 40, that's -25 Hit on an enemy with 40 Charm. 

Charm is just a non issue by the time it becomes important. 

[ruruo]

Just now, LoneRecon400 said:

Alert Stance isn't the only way to Dodgetank. Brawl Avoid +20 with other Avoid Boosters is enough to get 80 Avoid before even considering AS.

Gauntlet users don't have the mobility of a flier, and it also requires the DLC for Brawl Avoid +20.

 

[LoneRecon400]

43 minutes ago, ruruo said:

Gauntlet users don't have the mobility of a flier, and it also requires the DLC for Brawl Avoid +20.

They might not, but they have their advantages such as not being forced to wait on Player Phase to be useful on Enemy Phase, able to use Guard Adjutants without using up Blessing, and not having to lose 30 Avoid to Weapon Breaker enemies. It's trade off to be sure though.

TC has the DLC so I think it's fair to include it. 

Edited February 21 by LoneRecon400

[Dark Holy Elf]

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The problem is, as those pictures with Ingrid demonstrated, if she doesn't kill the first ememies to get to her, then a lot of the follow-up enemies won't even have a chance to get adjacent to her. So, instead of a ~50% chance of one-shotting the "second wave", she has a 0% chance (contingent, of course, on the first coin flip coming up "tails").

This feels like a non-issue. Assuming you're placed diagonally in a baiting position, there is space for at least two melee enemies to attack you and even more ranged enemies. Most enemy formations aren't that super-numerous that you're really worried about enemies piling up the way you're describing. This phenomenon is more of an issue in some of the older games which really did spam ludicrous enemy counts at you.

 

12 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Even if you wanted to ignore the substantial amount of difference in combat and the fact that could just a unit with Impregnable Wall could fulfill your needs of a dodgetank

Impregnable Wall requires (a) a unit to have that gambit, (b) them to use it on your tank every turn you want them to bait someone, (c) leaves your tank unable to deal more than 1 damage back (so you don't actually kill siege tome users, for starters, which is one of the main appeals of this build). This is all dramatically less efficient than a unit with Alert Stance+... a far greater gap than the one between someone with or without Battalion Wrath.

12 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

High Speed isn't even necessary for some dodgetanks as you can easily get a Brawling unit to 95 avoid off of Grappler's Base Speed alone without even needing to wait on Player Phase.

 

Hm, what am I missing? 17 (Grappler base spd + mod) + 20 (Brawl Prowess 5) + 20 (Brawl Avo) + 20 (Gautier/Aegir/Brigid battalions) + 10 (Evasion Ring) = 87?

Regardless, 90-95 is a bit shaky for a dodgetank, as average enemy hit is over 120 in every lategame map I checked. I do agree that brawling evade builds are legit enough, mind, but Ingrid will always have more avo than, say, Brawl Avo Felix, both because her speed will be higher, and because Alert Stance+ is 10 more evade than Brawl Avo. And of course, more mobility is always very nice.

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

she doesn't need Sacred Shield, but for a different reason - her Avoid boosts make siege tomes almost certain to miss regardless, so her Res is irrelevant.

Keep in mind that magic accuracy is typically a bit higher than it looks because luck is lower than speed for most dodgetanks (certainly including both Petra and Ingrid), so the chance of magic sneaking through is a something to be wary of, and Ingrid being say 3HKOed while Petra is 2HKOed does matter. I agree it's not a huge deal overall, but still a nice boon for the role they both play.

[LoneRecon400]

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Impregnable Wall requires (a) a unit to have that gambit, (b) them to use it on your tank every turn you want them to bait someone, (c) leaves your tank unable to deal more than 1 damage back (so you don't actually kill siege tome users, for starters, which is one of the main appeals of this build).

Hm, what am I missing for 97 Avoid? Regardless, it's is a bit shaky for a dodgetank, as average enemy hit is over 120 in every lategame map I checked. I do agree that brawling evade builds are legit enough, mind, but Ingrid will always have more avo than, say, Brawl Avo Felix, both because her speed will be higher, and because Alert Stance+ is 10 more evade than Brawl Avo. And of course, more mobility is always very nice.

The appeal of Impreganable Wall is that allows any unit to act like a dodgetank and bait enemies without massive amounts of investment.That alone makes worth bringing to every battle. Even if you discount that, being able to make any unit effectively immune to gambits and have enemies ignore them in favor of your dodgetanks provides a great amount of flexibility you otherwise wouldn't have.

Adjuatant provide +10 Avoid at A Rank Support. That's what you're overlooking.

Ingird will actually not have much more avoid than Felix with this setup. An Average level 40 FK Ingird will have 39 Speed, which would result in 120 Avoid when wielding Luin. An Average level 40 War Master Felix would have 34 Speed, giving him 114 Avoid without needing to even wait. Keep also in mind that with Sauna it's entirely possible to slap on regular Alert Stance on Felix and actually get more avoid on him than Ingrid. And that's not even the discussing the benefits of Crit +20 and Quick Riposte.

Edited February 22 by LoneRecon400

[Dark Holy Elf]

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Adjuatant provide +10 Avoid at A Rank Support. That's what you're overlooking.

I did not realize adjutants provided avoid on enemy phase (I know regular supports do not). That's definitely neat, and makes dodge-tanking even better than I thought because I often haven't given my dodge-tanks adjutants in the past.

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Ingird will actually not have much more avoid than Felix with this setup. An Average level 40 FK Ingird will have 39 Speed, which would result in 120 Avoid when wielding Luin. An Average level 40 War Master Felix would have 34 Speed, giving him 114 Avoid without needing to even wait.

Well, keep in mind that you're assuming a 4 AS loss from Luin, which isn't strictly necessary; she could have Weight-3 (a far smaller investment than Alert Stance for Felix), or wield a lighter weapon if necessary. You could also primarily train swords if you really want to emphasie evade.

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

And that's not even the discussing the benefits of Crit +20 and Quick Riposte.

If you think those are better than +2 move and flight then we'll just have to agree to disagree, I think.

[LoneRecon400]

28 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Ingrid could have Weight-3 or wield a lighter weapon if necessary. You could also primarily train swords if you really want to emphasie evade.

If you think those are better than +2 move and flight then we'll just have to agree to disagree, I think.

+3 Avoid is realistically not going to matter by that point and wouldn't be worth the Skill Slot. 

Swords are terrible for Ingrid considering not only would she lack a faire skill and would contribute even more to her Strength Issues, she'd also lose 30 Avoid to Paladins and Falcon Knights thanks to Sword Breaker. Gaining +9 Avoid while losing as much -13 attack is simply not worth it. 

Quick Riposte and Crit +20 by themselves wouldn't be enough to match 8 move and Flight, no. But when combined with the fact that Brawl Dodgetanks don't require a flying Battalion, are capable of dodging without waiting on Player Phase, aren't subject to weapon breakers, can use Guard Adjutants, and can have better avoid than flying units, that's enough to put them over flying dodgetanks yes. 

Edited February 23 by LoneRecon400

[ruruo]

 

17 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

The appeal of Impreganable Wall is that allows any unit to act like a dodgetank and bait enemies without massive amounts of investment.That alone makes worth bringing to every battle. Even if you discount that, being able to make any unit effectively immune to gambits and have enemies ignore them in favor of your dodgetanks provides a great amount of flexibility you otherwise wouldn't have.

Adjuatant provide +10 Avoid at A Rank Support. That's what you're overlooking.

Ingird will actually not have much more avoid than Felix with this setup. An Average level 40 FK Ingird will have 39 Speed, which would result in 120 Avoid when wielding Luin. An Average level 40 War Master Felix would have 34 Speed, giving him 114 Avoid without needing to even wait. Keep also in mind that with Sauna it's entirely possible to slap on regular Alert Stance on Felix and actually get more avoid on him than Ingrid. And that's not even the discussing the benefits of Crit +20 and Quick Riposte.

I don't see how any potential flying dodgetank need "massive amounts of investment".
For C in Faith for War monk seems more out of way, they can't use any of the Faith Magic, and again Sauna for Alert Stance for B Flying when he's not going to fly.
Whereas on Ingrid, the most out of the way thing I'd get would be with C+ in Axes. With that I can comfortably get a Death Blow and a scum for a shift in Wyvern Rider as an advanced class.

With Adjuncts, I believe it's like having  permanent link support on them. So for example if you give Ingrid, Sylvain she'll reap the special link support benefits (+3mt, +10 hit and the +10 avo), the bonus not something special for grounded units. Sure making a flier adjunct can be annoying, but the requirements aren't' that awful if planned from the get go. For what it's worth, I've thrown Hubert on a Wyvern for Edelgard lol.
 

8 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

+3 Avoid is realistically not going to matter by that point and wouldn't be worth the Skill Slot. 

Swords are terrible for Ingrid considering not only would she lack a faire skill and would contribute even more to her Strength Issues, she'd also lose 30 Avoid to Paladins and Falcon Knights thanks to Sword Breaker. Gaining +9 Avoid while losing as much -13 attack is simply not worth it. 

 

And that's why we check what weapon an enemy is holding, if they have a breaker skill equipped or not, and carry multiple weapons. Can't speak for everyone, but in most cases we're not going to throw her (or any other dodgetank) into a room like that, but bait out groups. 
 

Quote

Quick Riposte and Crit +20 by themselves wouldn't be enough to match 8 move and Flight, no. But when combined with the fact that Brawl Dodgetanks don't require a flying Battalion, are capable of dodging without waiting on Player Phase, aren't subject to weapon breakers, can use Guard Adjutants, and can have better avoid than flying units, that's enough to put them over flying dodgetanks yes. 

I don't want to choose if I want my War Master to delete something or to bait something. For me it's just more convenient to have a character whose only role is to mainly to bait. For a character like Felix I'd rather focus on making him as good at deleting stuff, him being able to dodge stuff while in enemy range or attacking is a great bonus. 
Also if I remember right, the only grounded battalions that give great Avo bonuses are Brigid Hunters, Gautier Knights and Aegir Astral Knights ones (all give +20 avo) while they're great, for a war master, I'd rather stack crit with something like Goneril Valkyries, Fraldarius Soldiers or King of Lions, which provide no bonuses to avo. In the case of AM, they're also great for sharing with Dimitri at low health. 

Eh.. I think we're still gonnae have to agree to disagree there with movement. imho There's no point on having all of that good stuff on a unit if you can't get them to where you need them to be. 

 

[LoneRecon400]

[Accidental Double Post.]

[Feel Free to Delete Mods]

Edited February 23 by LoneRecon400

[LoneRecon400]

3 hours ago, ruruo said:

I don't see how any potential flying dodgetank need "massive amounts of investment".

And that's why we check what weapon an enemy is holding, if they have a breaker skill equipped or not, and carry multiple weapons. Can't speak for everyone, but in most cases we're not going to throw her (or any other dodgetank) into a room like that, but bait out groups.

I don't want to choose if I want my War Master to delete something or to bait something. For me it's just more convenient to have a character whose only role is to mainly to bait. Also if I remember right, the only grounded battalions that give great Avo bonuses don't give any crit.

I was discussing Dodgetanks to Impregnable Wall in that comparison.The fact that any unit doesn't have to have Alert Stance or Brawl Avoid stacked with limited avoid boosters to be safety placed into multiple enemy ranges is a boon worth bringing to any map.

Do you really switch Ingird to using Swords over Lances as a Falcon Knight? She doesn't even gain any substantial Avoid from it until A+ Swords, never mind the drop in her already poor Strength.

You don't have to chose whether or not you want a Warmaster to bait or defeat an enemy. They can easily hit 100 Avoid just passively, which is more than enough for most enemies. Alertsance on Brawlers is only really ever necessary if you want to see a displayed 0 Hit on almost all enemies. 

Equipping Gautier over something like Leicester and Gonreil is the difference of 15 Crit. While that is admittedly a good amount, Crits still aren't going to be consistent without either some form of Wrath, so I don't think of it as a huge loss.

Edited February 23 by LoneRecon400

[ruruo]

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Do you really switch Ingird to using Swords over Lances as a Falcon Knight? She doesn't even gain any substantial Avoid from it until A+ Swords, never mind the drop in her already poor Strength.

Well if a case for lancebreaker to easily ruin her is to be made, then a case that she can easily switch out weapons to avoid it can also be made. 
Personally no, because I don't find the situation where there's enough lancebreaker enemies for her carrying lances to become a problem on AM. I also find Ingrid's strength problem to be vastly overblown. Like yeah I agree it's not great, but it's not tragic. The Lancefaire from FK helps, you can get her Death Blow, and she can also get a second Lancefaire from lance skills.

 

Quote

You don't have to chose whether or not you want a Warmaster to bait or defeat an enemy. They can already hit 100 Avoid just passively, which is more than enough for most enemies. Alertsance on Brawlers is only really ever necessary if you want to see a displayed 0 Hit on the enemy. 

Equipping Gautier over something like Leicester and Gonreil is the difference of 15 Crit. While that is admittedly a good amount, Crits still aren't going to be consistent without either some form of Wrath, so I don't think of it as a huge loss.

I mean it more in terms of on a turn, if I had to choose between positioning a Warmaster to bait something on one area or to punch out some other threat in a different area, rather than builds. 

I don't think Wrath for crit is a must, plus it's for enemy phase. For player phase it's definitely possible for a crit orientated war master. 

A War Master's innate Crit + 20, Killer Knuckles+ +30, Fraldarius Soldiers +20,  Brawl Crit +10, Crit Ring +5. That's +85 crit off the bat, without counting the unit. If we're putting that kit on a powerhouse like Felix who will usually punch 4 times. It's enough consistent on player phase, maybe a tad overkill. You're pretty much guaranteed for either his crest, a crit or both to go off at least once or twice during a round of player phase combat. 

 

 

[SnowFire]

This seems to have gotten a bit off-track, but I'll just say that Impregnable Wall is one of the absolute most game-breaking skills in 3H.  So even if we accept that a flying dodgetank is "worse" than Wall for a moment, that is a very weak criticism indeed - it only mostly breaks the game rather than entirely breaks the game, oh no.  Besides, there's no usage limit on flying dodgetanks, so they can dodgetank for many more than just 5 turns, which does matter on long slugfest maps like Oath of the Dagger.

I wouldn't consider Quick Riposte to really be in the discussion too much.  It's an extremely good ability but it's also crazy late, even if you grind it up immediately after hitting level 30.  Matters more as a plan for dealing with Nemesis on VW or the like.

Weight -3 is not entirely a meme for Ingrid.  The +3 Avoid is quite minor but more speed is always nice, and Ingrid's Str issues mean she has trouble hefting Silver Lances / Luin for most of the game (barring major stat booster investment...  which okay, feeding Ingrid your Str boosters is actually a very good idea).  Sometimes that extra speed matters for doubling so you might grab it for that reason - it's not like Ingrid needs to invest in a ton of skills, really just Lance / Flying / dash of Swords & Authority, so a quick dip into Armor isn't THAT bad.

Finally, I think people before were mentioning Ashe is stuck in Sniper or Dancer - I'll just add that he does make a good Wyvern Lord too.  Yes, everyone makes a good WL, but Ashe does have Axe proficiency, and he makes an okay discount Claude flying bow skirmisher a la Cyril - he can grab Seal Defense from mastering Wyvern Rider then drop Waning Shots from 3 range to debuff tanky monsters by Str-5 / Def-5 then Canto fly away, or even use Deadeye if the extra range is really necessary.  Ashe's highly questionable defense makes the flying canto to end turns safely away from enemies pretty important, as well.

[GaryGaryGary]

49 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

 

Finally, I think people before were mentioning Ashe is stuck in Sniper or Dancer - I'll just add that he does make a good Wyvern Lord too.  Yes, everyone makes a good WL, but Ashe does have Axe proficiency, and he makes an okay discount Claude flying bow skirmisher a la Cyril - he can grab Seal Defense from mastering Wyvern Rider then drop Waning Shots from 3 range to debuff tanky monsters by Str-5 / Def-5 then Canto fly away, or even use Deadeye if the extra range is really necessary.  Ashe's highly questionable defense makes the flying canto to end turns safely away from enemies pretty important, as well.

This, plus it gives him more opportunities to use his personal. He can open doors and chests without being hindered by terrain and can canto out it danger when he does. 

So WL Ashe is a legitimate build for him.

Edited February 23 by GaryGaryGary

[LoneRecon400]

1 hour ago, SnowFire said:

This seems to have gotten a bit off-track, but I'll just say that Impregnable Wall is one of the absolute most game-breaking skills in 3H.  So even if we accept that a flying dodgetank is "worse" than Wall for a moment-

I wouldn't consider Quick Riposte to really be in the discussion too much due to availability

Weight -3 is not entirely a meme for Ingrid.

Finally, I think people before were mentioning Ashe is stuck in Sniper or Dancer - I'll just add that he does make a good Wyvern Lord too. He makes an okay discount Claude flying bow skirmisher a la Cyril.

Whoa, back up there. I'm not claiming that dodgetanks are outclassed by Impregnable Wall, I'm just claiming that Impregnable Wall is a whole lot flexible and is worth bringing to every map.

I wouldn't normally consider Quick Riposte either as well, but a dodgetank can obtain a lot more class exp than most other units pretty easily. Like I once warped Felix into a thicket near Randolph in Chapter 14 with the Knowledge Gem and he was only 10 battles off from mastering War Master by the time I was done with the battle in 8 Turns.

I will admit that for the AS boost to the early and midgame from Weight -3 makes it worth picking up for Ingird, but equipping it for the avoid it provides lategame is totally a meme.

Thing is about Wyvern Ashe is that he still doesn't really have a niche. Anyone with a D in Bows could replicate alot of what he does with a bow while providing something else to the table. Even the other archer would be better, as a Wyvern Ignatz could provide Rallies on top of being extremely accurate with Axes, while someone like Cyril can use Point Blank Volley and Break Shot. Str -5 on a monster is also not that great considering you can just use the free Blessed Bow in Chapter 13 to simply break a barrier and avoid it's counter entirely.

Edited February 23 by LoneRecon400

[drattakbowser]

Have make my Annette Dancer, Wyvern is pretty bad because :

- Steep requirements

- Bad Class Skills

- Bad Battalion List

- Bow Weakness

- No terrain bonuses

My Ashe is Bow Knight and Ingrid is Falcon Knight.

Since my Annette class is Dancer i recruit Lysithea (Dark Knight/Gremory) for Annette remplacement. Only my Seteth Wyvern Lord can be good.

Edited February 24 by drattakbowser

[RainbowMoon]

53 minutes ago, drattakbowser said:

- Steep requirements

The requirements really aren't that bad. No worse than any other master class, anyway. And Annette has an axe boon, which helps her get Wyvern even faster.

53 minutes ago, drattakbowser said:

- Bad Class Skills

Axefaire is a skill that pretty much every axe unit wants. Avo +10 is great to have on anyone to increase survivability, even if they're not dodge tanking. And Canto's... well, Canto. Why exactly do you consider these bad skills?

53 minutes ago, drattakbowser said:

- Bad Battalion List

While there is a shortage of flying magic battalions, Nuvelle Fliers is really all she needs as a Wyvern Lord. She's got an authority boon, so she should be able to reach B fairly quickly. Also, Kingdom Pegasus is a magic-neutral C battalion and a good temporary alternative until she can switch to Nuvelle.

53 minutes ago, drattakbowser said:

- Bow Weakness

That's true of all flying classes though. Just don't get her targeted by archers, they're pretty easy to bait with someone like Dimitri.

53 minutes ago, drattakbowser said:

- No terrain bonuses

Gets 8 mov, Canto and flight instead. I'd say that's a pretty fair trade-off.

Edited February 24 by RainbowMoon

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Gets 8 mov, Canto and flight instead. I'd say that's a pretty fair trade-off.

Building offa this, in this game fliers actually can get terrain boosts, by dismounting. Thus also negating their bow weakness. It's not often worth it, but it's an option.

3 hours ago, drattakbowser said:

Have make my Annette Dancer, Wyvern is pretty bad because :

Anyone can be good as a Dancer, but for Annette, it means forsaking Rally support (in the choice between "Rally" and "Dance", the latter almost always wins). And it means you can't synergize Rally + Special Dance on a single unit.

[Barren]

27 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Building offa this, in this game fliers actually can get terrain boosts, by dismounting. Thus also negating their bow weakness. It's not often worth it, but it's an option.

Anyone can be good as a Dancer, but for Annette, it means forsaking Rally support (in the choice between "Rally" and "Dance", the latter almost always wins). And it means you can't synergize Rally + Special Dance on a single unit.

Not to mention that the amount of Rallies Annette brings to the table you can combine that with special dance on a unit that got the refresh and all of a sudden they have a lot of stat buffs for their turn. Personality wise this would fit her but in general you would be better off trying to have one unit rally and another dance instead having her to choose either one or another

[GaryGaryGary]

17 hours ago, drattakbowser said:

Have make my Annette Dancer, Wyvern is pretty bad because :

- Steep requirements

- Bad Class Skills

- Bad Battalion List

- Bow Weakness

- No terrain bonuses

My Ashe is Bow Knight and Ingrid is Falcon Knight.

Since my Annette class is Dancer i recruit Lysithea (Dark Knight/Gremory) for Annette remplacement. Only my Seteth Wyvern Lord can be good.

-Not really. All Annette needs is Axe, Authority, and Reason, and maybe a few lessons in Flying and Lances. Easy to reach since 3/5 are her boons, and she just needs a C in Lances for WL and C in Flying for WR. Stay in WR until you reach WL.

-Axefaire, Flying Canto, and +10 avoid are bad skills?

-Annette should be your primary user for the flying magic battalion since she's more prone to fly than other magic users.

-Okay? Not really a problem due to dismounting.

- Again, you can dismount to get terrain bonuses.

Bonus: Annette is not a good Dancer. Not saying she can't become one, but it's a poor choice. Like others said, she's forced to decide between Rallying and Dancing in which dancing will almost always come out on top.

[Shadow Mir]

On 2/24/2021 at 3:37 PM, RainbowMoon said:

While there is a shortage of flying magic battalions, Nuvelle Fliers is really all she needs as a Wyvern Lord. She's got an authority boon, so she should be able to reach B fairly quickly. Also, Kingdom Pegasus is a magic-neutral C battalion and a good temporary alternative until she can switch to Nuvelle.

Aside from the fact that it only gives 5 hit, which isn't great considering the inaccuracy of her weapons, I would also say it means making some hard choices if you intend to have any Dark Fliers.