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Ottservia

Fire Emblem and Hardcore Otaku

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So it's no secret at this point that IS is defintely trying to market this series towards a more hardcore Otaku demographic. Espesially with a lot of features added in recent titles like marriage, petting minigames, teatime, fanservice-y dlc, and just generally pandering to more Otaku fetishes with their characters. I mean I don't think I need to go into the reason why Elise was able to be S-supported. Regardless, it's just a trend I've noticed with the series recently. Personally, it doesn't bother me much because I am very much in the demographic they're trying to cater too here but it's at least something to think about. It wouldn't surprise me if a good chunk of the dev team was comprised of Otaku to be honest. Then again a lot of jrpgs nowadays seem to want to cater towards that demographic with the one exception being final fantasy which is more popular in the west anyway. I dunno I'm curious as to the reasoning behind why IS seems to be taking steps to cater more to them in recent years.

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I think it is just that their primary demographic is younger people, so I guess that kinda stuff is more appealing? Sorta like how almost every RPG in existence primarily features younger characters, Yakuza: Like a Dragon notwithstanding so I'd guess that pandering of sorts is simply more of a thing. I'm not a hardcore Xenoblade fan, but I think that it's sorta doing the same thing, so I don't think FE is alone in this regard.

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12 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I dunno I'm curious as to the reasoning behind why IS seems to be taking steps to cater more to them in recent years.

Money. The hardcore, super punishing SRPG with a deep war/political story doesn’t sell as many copies as the game with Camilla on the cover.

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7 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Money. The hardcore, super punishing SRPG with a deep war/political story doesn’t sell as many copies as the game with Camilla on the cover.

Assuming video games are even capable of that.

Admittedly, I say that not having played a lot of possible examples of that. But with that Triangle game bringing the unfortunate failures of Final Fantasy Tactics's narrative into my mind, and an 850 page history of the 30 Years' War freshly read in my head, I'm doubtful. Not only am I doubtful, but perhaps it is for the best video games fail at telling deep war stories. If deep is defined as "realistic", and FE is defined as "old European" then reality can be just too darned complicated! No ifs, ands, or Wolfenbuttels about it.

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I'll still play them, they don't affect my enjoyment of the game severely; but I would say it detracts from the experience a bit. Perhaps it's just me, but I don't really like being pandered to by some of the fanservice the games have; it kind of just turns me off. There's just something really weird about being able to marry your students in three houses that I'm not going to be able to shake off, you know?

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3 hours ago, Sooks said:

Money. The hardcore, super punishing SRPG with a deep war/political story doesn’t sell as many copies as the game with Camilla on the cover.

This exactly. I'm not fond of it myself, but I appreciate that 3H was a step back from the overload of fanservice/otaku pandering that Fates tacked on. Hopefully they continue with that trend going forward.

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Honestly Fates is what happens is when you show someone kill la kill as their first anime. Okay that’s a bit of an exaggeration because Fates is no where the level of degenerecy that kill la kill is but still the point stands.

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11 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Honestly Fates is what happens is when you show someone kill la kill as their first anime. Okay that’s a bit of an exaggeration because Fates is no where the level of degenerecy that kill la kill is but still the point stands.

Camilla was just the first example of Fire Emblem pandering that came to mind, because... Camilla, but Awakening and Three Houses were both more oriented to the ways of anime.

Is kill la kill a super fan service-y anime? I’m not really an anime buff.

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Honestly, who cares? I don't really care about what these supposed otaku like, or whether they're being pandered too. I care about the end product of Fire Emblem we're getting, which, for my money, has been extremely good of late (IMO Conquest has the best gameplay in the series, and 3H the best characters/writing). If you disagree, that's fine, but we can have that conversation in good faith without needing to invoke words like "degeneracy".

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3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

and an 850 page history of the 30 Years' War freshly read in my head, 

Oh wow.

Somebody make a tactics game out of that. Every map would be a siege map. So, basically fire emblem. I want a tactics game where I starve out the enemy in their pretty little castles. As for the big bad Dragon antagonist manipulating everything, what better stand-in for God than God himself? Now which country is the cat-girl race...?

Anyway, I don't think I particularly agree with the premise. I mean, Otaku, do they still call each other that in Japan? When asked about these new elements, developers always say they want to appeal to a wider demographic, not a more narrow one. And I think the sales data proves that there's something to that. Here in the west, we may think about dating sims as games for horny guys, but it's not so one-sided in Japan. Otome games are their own genre.

Three Houses dials back on the uncomfortable sex elements (My mysterious cousin or hot step-sis...who do I choose???) but I was still frustrated with a game that was, in terms of raw play time, 50% simulation elements and clearly built by a staff that loved Persona 5 but lacked much of the time/resources to build their own Persona 5. My problem right now is with a series that chases trends too hard. I'm glad to hear the games are selling, but I'd have a hard time seeing them gain traction if not for the priveledged marketing magic of Super Smash Bros. All I want is killer gameplay. They can have whatever else they want off to the side.

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The changes to the series that were made in Awakening and its subsequent success is why FE has recently been catering more towards Oktaku.

Edited by Wraith

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Because they know that their main fan base is okay with this type of thing. There is nothing inherently wrong with them doing so. People complain about Flayn and Elise but why? I see little complaints about Nyx, why is it okay for her and not Flayn? History has tons of now currently under aged girls getting married and having kids. I not condoning it but pretending like it didn’t happen isn’t right. It makes sense based on the suggested time period that FE takes place. 

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7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Honestly, who cares? I don't really care about what these supposed otaku like, or whether they're being pandered too. I care about the end product of Fire Emblem we're getting, which, for my money, has been extremely good of late (IMO Conquest has the best gameplay in the series, and 3H the best characters/writing). If you disagree, that's fine, but we can have that conversation in good faith without needing to invoke words like "degeneracy".

This is basically my stance on it as well.

There's alot to not like in the modern titles, but just calling them Otaku games is wrong.

1 hour ago, ciphertul said:

History has tons of now currently under aged girls getting married and having kids

Flayn is not underaged, just saying.

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4 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Flayn is not underaged, just saying.

I’m aware of this, most people however only see her physical appearance and don’t care about her artificial age.

But like others have said it mostly a difference in culture.

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8 hours ago, Sooks said:

Is kill la kill a super fan service-y anime? I’m not really an anime buff.

This opening should give you a good idea of what the show is about. I love it to death and it’s one of my favorite anime of all time but it’s clearly trying to cater to a very specific demographic.

 

29 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

There's alot to not like in the modern titles, but just calling them Otaku games is wrong.

 

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Honestly, who cares? I don't really care about what these supposed otaku like, or whether they're being pandered too. I care about the end product of Fire Emblem we're getting, which, for my money, has been extremely good of late (IMO Conquest has the best gameplay in the series, and 3H the best characters/writing). If you disagree, that's fine, but we can have that conversation in good faith without needing to invoke words like "degeneracy".

Oh I agree but with fates especially you can’t deny a lot of elements in those games were made with that demographic in mind. I don’t really mind it of course cause I love this sort of shit but you know it’s something to keep in mind.

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With the infamous team B being on record as fighting for things such as skinship its unthinkable that a sizable part of the dev team isn't comprised of Otaku. Fates especially seemed like Otaku Emblem even if aspects of it were bound to bring the project into problems when it got localized. 

The that was a problem that more or less solved itself. Echoes and Three Houses significantly dialed all those things back. Three Houses even went out of its way to reject fanservice in a move all about fanservice. Its rather noteworthy that the sauna option was as tame as it ended up being. 

Quote

But with that Triangle game bringing the unfortunate failures of Final Fantasy Tactics's narrative into my mind, and an 850 page history of the 30 Years' War freshly read in my head, I'm doubtful.

Would you have the title of that book for me? 😀

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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6 hours ago, Parrhesia said:

Yeah I'm not sure why this thread exists today, given that the talking points are from 2015.

Because people enjoy discussing the FE series and understand its tonal trajectory based on the evolution of past entries.

Edited by Wraith

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10 minutes ago, Parrhesia said:

Yeah I'm not sure why this thread exists today, given that the talking points are from 2015.

It’s just something that crossed my mind as I was having a conversation with a friend the other day about how different the fan service between awakening and fates was. 

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8 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Oh wow.

Somebody make a tactics game out of that. Every map would be a siege map. So, basically fire emblem. I want a tactics game where I starve out the enemy in their pretty little castles

Groups in play:

Spoiler
  • Holy Roman Emperor- Ferdinand II and later his son Ferdinand III of the House of Habsburg, Archdukes of Austria, Kings of Bohemia and Hungary.
    • Goal, bring the rebellious Protestants subjects into submission. Will not comprise on the re-Catholicization of the Habsburg lands. Would like to flip as much of the Empire back to the Catholics as possible.
    • Reality- Win some, lose some. Come out very strong actually, all we needed was a willingness to compromise on some things.
  • Sweden- Gustavus Adolphus Vasa, and his chancellor and dear friend Axel Oxenstierna.
    • Goal- Likes the idea of becoming the protector of Lutheranism (Calvinists are bleh, but sure, support us please).
    • Nobody expected the Lion of the North to be awesome, but Sweden's king turned the country from backwater to supposed superpower.
    • Adolphus dies in battle after three years, but not before racking up enough victories to compensate for his losses that he goes down in history as a war god.
    • A series of setbacks and reverses after Gustavus, is followed by Sweden becoming the great kingdom of the Baltic and regaining some lost ground in Germany.
  • Denmark Christian IV Oldenburg
    • Goal- Be the defender of Protestantism, as everyone expects. Also, my two younger sons need Holy Roman Empire bishoprics to live the good life. Yes, the Empire has compromised to let Lutherans become "administrators" if elected by their church canons to the bishoprics.
    • Reality- Lose big in like four years of war. Much later, get hammered by Sweden even with Adolphus long in the grave. 
  • France, Cardinals Richelieu, and later Mazarin. Kings Louis XIII and XIV (only a child) don't really matter.
    • Goal- Give Sweden money, yes, two Cardinals who get to vote on the Pope don't care if they supporting a Protestant kingdom against Catholic enemies. Why? Spain is their real foe, the Spanish Habsburgs will be distracted having to support their Austrian relatives. Also, France wants formal acquisition of Alsace, Lorraine, Toul, Metz, and Verdun. All within the Holy Roman Empire. When money ain't enough, we take to battle as well.
    • Reality- Starts shaky on the warfront, and the Frondes are gonna mess up things at home. But, from domestic turmoil and weakness with the French Wars of Religion, France is really starting to regain lost strength and prestige, once Louis 14 grows up, France is gonna dominate.
  • Spain- Philip III and his son Phil 4. 
    • Goal- Uphold Catholicism in the Empire, thwart France, pacify the German territories near the Netherlands we've spent decades trying to put down a "revolt" in. We want to focus on the Netherlands.
    • Reality- We've lost to the Dutch, and Catalonia and Portugal are in rebellion now? The ship that was our Golden Age has sunk! Our heir to the throne is the sad creation of incest!
  • Frederick V of Bohemia, Elector of the Palatinate
    • Behold, I am the King of the North foretold in the apocalyptic prophecies of the Bible! I will in the name of Calvinism defeat the southern Catholic king of Austria! God supports me! I know this to be true, because why haven't any of my loyal supporters told me otherwise?
    • I absolutely will not go down in history as having fanned the flames of war, but losing everything I have in one year's time.
  • Transylvania- No vampires, but they do fight for a short while, too small and weak to do a whole lot though.
  • Saxony- Johann Georg
    • I want to be a loyal subject of the Emperor, but I want to stay Lutheran too. The Palatinate's Calvinist madmen can go screw themselves. I'll dabble in revolt if I need to, but I want to stay on the Emperor's side when possible.
  • Brandenburg-Prussia- Georg Wilhelm
    • Shortly after my father died, I went off to Poland to ask for the Duchy of Prussia, which is now mine to inherit b/c my relatives there died out from mental illness.
    • Meanwhile, the King of Sweden comes to Berlin and takes my sister as his wife without my permission. Does he not realize this does not look good for me when his Catholic uncle who hates him and wants Sweden back ASAP is the King of Poland?!
    • And then it turns out Gustavus doesn't love my sister at all! Who in turns hates him and his icebox country, causing her heartbreak and her mental illness to worsen.
    • And then he comes to my electorate to get involved in the war, when all I want is neutrality. Countries need people who aren't dead you know!
    • And why does he get a slice of the Pomerania I alone was supposed to inherit? Well, at least I got most of it, I feared I'd have none.
    • ...And yet I support my brother-in-law. For... Protestantism, for German freedom.😑
  • Bavaria- Finally we get that Elector title back after centuries of a broken agreement! I'm happy my Palatinate Wittelsbach relative is an idiot.
  • A bunch of lesser Holy Roman Empire political entities, like Hesse-Kassel, Anhalt, Wolffebuttel.

Tilly, Bernhard, Pappenheim, Wallenstein (who gets assassinated on orders of his liege b/c arrogance makes everyone think he has gone AWOL), Piccolomini, Baner, Mansfeld, Duke Enghein... all generals I can't remember that much about, plus more.

As for notable events, the Siege of Magdeburg would be great. 1700 of the 1900 buildings in town get burned to the ground, possibly by accident, 5000 souls remain alive and inside when the population was 25000. Oh, and 30% of Germans die across the Holy Roman Empire die over the 30 years, lots of plague, battle, heaping amounts of pillaging to keep the soldiers fed. I think it was said the average soldier in the Swedish army had a 1 in 5 chance of surviving after a year of service. Can't remember exactly.

And remember who the Part 3 RD war begins with Ranulf saying Begnion has been killing Laguz envoys? 30 Years' War did it first! Well, third, two prior instances had happened in Bohemia over a century earlier. The Habsburgs had sent government officials to Prague, the capital of Bohemia, to discuss re-Catholicizing the kingdom, and a bunch of radical Protestant nobles decided to throw two Habsburg officials and their servant out a window, miraculously, despite being like 70 feet off the ground, they all lived and returned home. Thus began the Bohemian Revolt that began the 30 Years' War.

Also, FE4's system of individual Gold accounts comes back. However, pay will always be at least six months in arrears and you will have to do some banditry or stage a mutiny if you want to fix that gaping hole in your wallet. There will also be national Gold account, but deficit spending and high-interest loans will be a part of this, no Casual Mode on the accounting!

And if you're asking "Where are the Scotsmen?", they're comprising more of the Swedish army than actual Swedes, or maybe not, but there are definitely more Germans in the Swedish army than Swedes for sure. The Scots and English go bye when the English Civil War breaks out, gotta fight the home fight. Britain is pretty neutral at this time, but it is perfectly fine to visit and recruit thousands of mercenaries, that does not break the rules of neutrality.

As you see, very complicated.

 

19 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Would you have the title of that book for me? 😀

The Thirty Years' War: Europe's Tragedy by Peter H. Wilson.

Keep in mind, it takes about 250 pages to get to the actual start of the war. And devotes the last 100 to the aftermath of the war.

I was trying to take notes b/c I borrowed it from the library, had to give up on that. Too many good things to note. I'd give you the few notes I have from the early chapters if you'd like.

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37 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Groups in play:

You left out the Dutch who's 80 year's war with Spain overlapped with the 30 year war. They were definitely a group in play. Though I guess the low countries theater being mostly sieges makes it somewhat less dramatic than its German counterpart. 

 

37 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The Thirty Years' War: Europe's Tragedy by Peter H. Wilson.

Keep in mind, it takes about 250 pages to get to the actual start of the war. And devotes the last 100 to the aftermath of the war.

Thanks 😄 You also have a 700 page book on the 30 years war by Swedish historian Dick Harrison

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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Just now, Etrurian emperor said:

You left out the Dutch who's 80 year's war with Spain overlapped with the 30 year war. They were definitely a group in play.

Sorry about that!😅 I thought the list was long enough, a quick mention in the Spanish section would be enough. 

 

Just now, Etrurian emperor said:

Thanks 😄 You also have a 700 page book on the 30 years war by Swedish historian Dick Harrison

And thank you in return.🙂

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It's funny, I essentially "disowned" the series after FE13 landed and gave me a bad taste in the mouth due to the tropey characters and the avatar/fanservice inclusion, but have since come around in the 3H era due to a mixture of resignation, time-heals-a-lot-of-things/maturity, and genuine fun in rolling with wacky "okay, so how can we make this fun..." self insert isekai AU's.

As much as I will always prefer the nuanced characters and minimal fanservice of the Tellius duology, Nintendo is a company that's gotta have profits and they're simply catering to a newer demographic that will keep the series alive.  (Series was about to shutter right before FE13, after all). And if it means still getting Tellius characters through the sides like through FEH ... I'm surprisingly OK with that these days.

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