Fire Emblem and Hardcore Otaku

[Axie]

i have always been around for the gameplay first, so whatever, but awakening and specially fates really tried me with their characterisation at points. the anime tropes really are not for me.

strangely, i have yet to play but three houses hasn't appealed to me either despite having stepped away from that. it just feels like a different form of trend-chasing and doesn't feel organic to the franchise either.

[Ottservia]

42 minutes ago, Axie said:

i have always been around for the gameplay first, so whatever, but awakening and specially fates really tried me with their characterisation at points. the anime tropes really are not for me.

strangely, i have yet to play but three houses hasn't appealed to me either despite having stepped away from that. it just feels like a different form of trend-chasing and doesn't feel organic to the franchise either.

I mean Fire Emblem has always had anime tropes. I mean just look at Ephiram’s support with L’arachel. Hell, there’s one support where Eirka straight up flashes her panties to someone. And don’t get me started on characters like Florina. PoR is as shounen as it gets too. These games are produced by Japanese nerds so this sort of thing is inevitable. I’m just saying there’s a slight difference between anime tropes and otaku tropes which is why I’m always sort of confused when people lump awakening and fates together. The fan service in awakening is really no more prevelant than in say something like Naruto or Bleach. The game itself carries itself with the tone and feel of your typical battle shounen.

Fates is pretty different in that regard. It carries itself with a tone and style more reminiscent of light novels or visual novels. Those mediums are more geared towards an older Otaku demographic. Hence, more focus is put on those aspects. 
 

3H is definitely trying to aim itself at a more seinen(or josei) demographic. It’s more “adult” feeling than awakening and lends itself to a darker tone and aesthetic.

[𝐅𝐞𝐧𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐥]

15 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Then again a lot of jrpgs nowadays seem to want to cater towards that demographic with the one exception being final fantasy which is more popular in the west anyway. I dunno I'm curious as to the reasoning behind why IS seems to be taking steps to cater more to them in recent years.

probably because most of the main numbered entries in the FF franchise( including some spin-offs ) actually offer way more narrative than any FE title ever did( with some exceptions ), and they're not overloaded with anime tropes, fanservice and other similar stuff. not mentioning iconic titles such as FF VII, wich has made a huge impact in the RPG genre in general.

as a result, compared to FE, there's way more people all around the world that appreciate and enjoy FF games for what they are.

it's like comparing a Fiat Panda with a Ferrari: you just don't do that.

 

as for the target audience of FE...let's just say that when it comes to JRPGs, it's easier to sell a game with big bazoongas on the cover art rather than a game with a more serious tone, especially if we consider japanese trends in terms of videogames for teenagers. if we also include otakus( or "nerds" in the western case ), then the pool keeps expanding further.

then again, there's other factors to consider too. a well-known developer will always have a fan base following it, but depending on how they move onward with every new title, they can always gain or lose fans/buyers.

in any case, if IS has decided to move into that specific direction, then the reason is quite simple: there's good money to be made out of it.

[Farishfyre]

13 hours ago, twilitfalchion said:

This exactly. I'm not fond of it myself, but I appreciate that 3H was a step back from the overload of fanservice/otaku pandering that Fates tacked on. Hopefully they continue with that trend going forward.

I agree with this! I liked Fates (as I generally like all of the FEs) but I was a bit...perturbed by some of the motifs. Like the subservient maid Felicia or the (forgive me for using the wrong word) "loli" part of Sakura/Elise or the overt adoration from Camilla. In all, I actually like the characters when they're not interacting with Corrin lol. 

12 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Honestly, who cares? I don't really care about what these supposed otaku like, or whether they're being pandered too. I care about the end product of Fire Emblem we're getting, which, for my money, has been extremely good of late (IMO Conquest has the best gameplay in the series, and 3H the best characters/writing). If you disagree, that's fine, but we can have that conversation in good faith without needing to invoke words like "degeneracy".

This is where I think I stand. Like I notice the "otaku" vibes and I'm not the biggest fan of it (especially in games like FEH) but I really care most about the end product of the game. Like for the most part, I marry the same character in every playthrough (I never noticed but I seem to have a thing for FE dancers like Ninian, Tethys, Leanne, Olivia, Azura, and Dorothea). But when I think about Fire Emblem, I focus more on the story/characterization/plot devices/gameplay/etc. Honestly I think I really only notice the over "otaku" vibes (if I'm using the word wrong lmk) in fan-work. But even then--who am I to hate on fan work when it's overall promoting the series I love so much?

[null]

3 minutes ago, Farishfyre said:

Like the subservient maid Felicia

It's funny, actually. Despite Felicia (and Flora) obviously being maids, I never felt like their character suffered for it. If anything, I felt like they had some of the best interactions with Corrin, and their being maids was simply an aspect of their character rather than the focus of it. But that's just how I saw it, personally.

[Farishfyre]

5 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

It's funny, actually. Despite Felicia (and Flora) obviously being maids, I never felt like their character suffered for it. If anything, I felt like they had some of the best interactions with Corrin, and their being maids was simply an aspect of their character rather than the focus of it. But that's just how I saw it, personally.

So I saw your reply and went digging and I admit that I might have conflated Fates!Felicia with Heroes!Felicia. My apologies. I think I was thinking about tidbits in Felicia's personality from Fire Emblem Heroes such as:

• Her level-up response: "Does this please you?"
• Her special activation response: "For my master!"
• Her character page response: "My master is an absolutely wonderful person!"
• Her level 40 confession quote has tidbits like "You like it?! I'm so relieved!" and "'I've been working hard to be a good help to you" but to be fair--most character's level 40 confession quotes are pretty cringey.

In short, I don't really mind Felicia but I think the "submissive maid" trope is a bit...uncomfortable for me lol. Maybe I've been exposed to too many weird fantasies from people. 

[null]

Just now, Farishfyre said:

So I saw your reply and went digging and I admit that I might have conflated Fates!Felicia with Heroes!Felicia. My apologies. I think I was thinking about tidbits in Felicia's personality from Fire Emblem Heroes such as:

• Her level-up response: "Does this please you?"
• Her special activation response: "For my master!"
• Her character page response: "My master is an absolutely wonderful person!"
• Her level 40 confession quote has tidbits like "You like it?! I'm so relieved!" and "'I've been working hard to be a good help to you" but to be fair--most character's level 40 confession quotes are pretty cringey.

 

Oh, yeah. I can see why you'd think that.

Just now, Farishfyre said:

n short, I don't really mind Felicia but I think the "submissive maid" trope is a bit...uncomfortable for me lol. Maybe I've been exposed to too many weird fantasies from people

Perfectly understandable. Some folks like to take tropes to an uncomfortable or odd place, even if the trope itself isn't inherently bad.

[Ottservia]

24 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

It's funny, actually. Despite Felicia (and Flora) obviously being maids, I never felt like their character suffered for it. If anything, I felt like they had some of the best interactions with Corrin, and their being maids was simply an aspect of their character rather than the focus of it. But that's just how I saw it, personally.

I mean I like Felicia too and I think she’s a great character but she clearly is meant to pander to that fetish. Her archetype is the primary reason people go to maid cafes. Also her being a clumsy maid is the focus of her character as far as I can tell. It’s why she’s as self-depricating as she is and a lot of her supports kinda play into the idea that she’s a much a better fighter than a maid but she still chooses to be a maid anyway because it’s something that she enjoys. She’s a well written character but you can’t deny what they were thinking when they created her. 

[Etrurian emperor]

With Felicia you can really see how the writers were trying to shove every moe trait they could think of into one singular character. It seemed to have worked out fine since even with that shakey origins Felica turned out to be rather likable and not all that grating. 

She could just have easily turned out like Naotora Ii.....brrr. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[Azz]

Personally, I don't particularly mind IntSys  pandering towards certain demographics, I mean, you gotta make money to survive, my main issue with some of the more pandery tropes they started to play into (mainly FEA and especially Fates) were at the expense of characters, case in point Tharja, who wasn't the worst character in FEA and actually had some nice moments in supports, but outside it in side material like Heroes, is nothing but obsessed with Robin, aka, you the player, which is unfortunate. Same with Camilla tbh.

Honestly, if I have one issue with the pandering, aside from some characters suffering, is the fact avatars exist. If there weren't avatars, the pandering wouldn't be as bad imo but it is what it is. Thankfully FETH has takes a step back in terms of the more overt pandering (with Bernadetta being the worst offender in TH), though I do think by the virtue of an avatar/played expy character existing in FE, the pandering will always seems more prevalent than sometimes it is.

[Sidereal Wraith]

I guess my only issue with having the FE series pander more towards Otaku is I feel it limits the story telling prospectives. For as much as people applaud TH for being good, I’m honestly not really thrilled that the main setting is essentially medieval high school. If there’s one thing that immediately turns me off from anime it would be the fact that it takes place in a high school.

[Farishfyre]

39 minutes ago, Azz said:

Personally, I don't particularly mind IntSys  pandering towards certain demographics, I mean, you gotta make money to survive, my main issue with some of the more pandery tropes they started to play into (mainly FEA and especially Fates) were at the expense of characters, case in point Tharja, who wasn't the worst character in FEA and actually had some nice moments in supports, but outside it in side material like Heroes, is nothing but obsessed with Robin, aka, you the player, which is unfortunate. Same with Camilla tbh.

Honestly, if I have one issue with the pandering, aside from some characters suffering, is the fact avatars exist. If there weren't avatars, the pandering wouldn't be as bad imo but it is what it is. Thankfully FETH has takes a step back in terms of the more overt pandering (with Bernadetta being the worst offender in TH), though I do think by the virtue of an avatar/played expy character existing in FE, the pandering will always seems more prevalent than sometimes it is.

That's an interesting point about the avatars. I personally really liked Robin but I'm iffy on Byleth & Corrin, to be quite honest. Do you think having a "customizable main character" with their own personality is a better choice? I find Corrin and Byleth to be a bit annoying with how everyone kinda idolizes them (obviously not everyone, but still). With Robin, you still have that over-idealization but idk I personally found myself a bit more interested in Robin's whole background and the motif of "our bonds give us strengths." Corrin just seemed kinda...bland to me and Byleth isn't that great IMO just because I don't get why everyone in the game fawns over them.

I would almost rather something like FE7 where the player can be a "character" but I still like having a customizable character (like Robin/Corrin/Byleth) that can be adjusted for replays and challenges. I'm not sure where the balance would be, but it would be interesting to see how future "avatars" develop. 

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I guess my only issue with having the FE series pander more towards Otaku is I feel it limits the story telling prospectives. For as much as people applaud TH for being good, I’m honestly not really thrilled that the main setting is essentially medieval high school. If there’s one thing that immediately turns me off from anime it would be the fact that it takes place in a high school.

Well that’s a cultural thing though. The reason so much anime takes place in high school is because high school to them is basically the last time in their lives that they’re truly free until being thrust into the hyper capitalistic workaholic society that is Japanese adult life. They romanticize it so much because it reminds them of simpler times in their lives. It’s similar to how we view “the college experience” over here in the states. Also teenagers are just at that age where they just make for good characters in general.

 

47 minutes ago, Azz said:

Personally, I don't particularly mind IntSys  pandering towards certain demographics, I mean, you gotta make money to survive, my main issue with some of the more pandery tropes they started to play into (mainly FEA and especially Fates) were at the expense of characters, case in point Tharja, who wasn't the worst character in FEA and actually had some nice moments in supports, but outside it in side material like Heroes, is nothing but obsessed with Robin, aka, you the player, which is unfortunate. Same with Camilla tbh.

 

that’s kinda my issue with Tharja as well. Cause to me if you’re gonna do fanservice it’s either you go big or go home. The problem I have with Tharja is that her obsession does not feel like a natural part of her character but rather something tacked on solely for the sake of pandering. At least with Camilla it makes sense in context.

[Sooks]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

I guess my only issue with having the FE series pander more towards Otaku is I feel it limits the story telling prospectives. For as much as people applaud TH for being good, I’m honestly not really thrilled that the main setting is essentially medieval high school. If there’s one thing that immediately turns me off from anime it would be the fact that it takes place in a high school.

The plot is entirely world and fantasy based, if that makes sense at all. There is zero school drama, unless you count the Byleth-Linhardt support.

[Sidereal Wraith]

10 hours ago, Sooks said:

The plot is entirely world and fantasy based, if that makes sense at all. There is zero school drama, unless you count the Byleth-Linhardt support.

I was more or less saying that I felt that the high school setting as a whole was overused in anime and now in FE. A lot of anime and some JRPGs feel very homogeneous because of this with only a few factors differentiating them. For example, the setting is a high school, but magic exists or the students all are super heroes or the story takes place in the future. Sometimes it feels like the only thing that makes these kinds of anime/JRPGs have some sense of their own unique identity is what genre the story falls into. 

[DukeC4]

I don't care. Is the gameplay passable? Do the characters look cool? Is there at least 2-3 supports worth getting? Then I'm good. I've literally never played Fire Emblem for the main narrative, after the first time (and usually only paying minimal attention), after learning what supports were. Then it mainly just became about keeping my favorite character(s) alive and making sure they ended up badass. 

If I can't make a connection to any character in the game then I'll stop playing. It's for this entire reason why I stopped playing Echoes once Act 3 came around. I didn't like a single character. They weren't bad. Just bland. And none of them looked cool enough or had enough personality for me to persevere playing it. 

Say what you want about Sacred Stones but gotdammit it had Gerik and Joshua in it. Gerik for being instantly useful and looking and being a badass and Joshua because he had 3-4 supports of pure quality. And a swaggy hat. Didn't matter that swordmasters were garbage in FE8. I still use him. 

So, what I'm saying is that what makes or breaks a Fire Emblem game for me is the characters and whether or not I can get attached to them. The story can take a flying leap off a building. Let's not act like we don't button skip past everything after the first playthrough anyway. If we're playing it multiple times it's because we wanna see interesting supports for our favorite characters, wanna make our favorite characters good come hell or high water, or find enjoyment in the mechanics. 

 

 

[EricaofRenais]

I don't mind it if it is not over done.  My main problem with overly catering characters is if their outfits make no sense, like Camilla who would have been the first one to die on a battle field with that armor.  3Hs did it best IMO since there was fanservice, but it wasn't overboard and made sense.

[Dandy Druid]

Can Fire Emblem even be considered otaku-bait at this point? Not to toot IS' horn, but the series is wayyy too mainstream now to be considered a niche otaku game. It's nothing like, say, Conception, or something along the lines of that. It has some aspects of it, but there's a bigger picture beyond it.

 

And don't get me started on "fanservicey" characters or characters that were designed in a way to be attractive. That has always been in this series (and nearly every videogame series tbh) and it started with the very first FE game with Linde. And this isn't to say fanservice characters are bad, because Linde is a wonderful character. But let's be real, she was definitely designed to look beautiful and have male fans.

[Samz707]

1 hour ago, Dandy Druid said:

Can Fire Emblem even be considered otaku-bait at this point? Not to toot IS' horn, but the series is wayyy too mainstream now to be considered a niche otaku game. It's nothing like, say, Conception, or something along the lines of that. It has some aspects of it, but there's a bigger picture beyond it.

 

And don't get me started on "fanservicey" characters or characters that were designed in a way to be attractive. That has always been in this series (and nearly every videogame series tbh) and it started with the very first FE game with Linde. And this isn't to say fanservice characters are bad, because Linde is a wonderful character. But let's be real, she was definitely designed to look beautiful and have male fans.

Yeah but there's a probable big difference between Linde and Camilla or Tharja in how they're written. (Man, it's totally good logic how Tharja just suddenly develops a major yandere crush on Robin, for literally no reason other than "Because Robin is the shitty player self-insert", just after meeting him one chapter earlier and not even a full day later in-universe is such good writing and I doubt Linde has that sorta interaction with Kris.)

Awakening and Fates are blatantly trying to pander way, way harder than other FE games and personally it's just obnoxious. (Especially since it's literally the exact opposite of what I like about Player Inserts.)

Also Fae wasn't written to be "Loli but Legal" which is a pretty big distinction in how the Pandering FE games treat their Dragon characters, Fae is a child and it's played for Drama in some kinda dark supports, such as with Igrene while Nowi in Awakening is just there to be "Oh it's legal because she's actually a 1000000 Year old dragon who just looks and mentally has the age of a child."

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Samz707

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Dandy Druid said:

Can Fire Emblem even be considered otaku-bait at this point? Not to toot IS' horn, but the series is wayyy too mainstream now to be considered a niche otaku game. It's nothing like, say, Conception, or something along the lines of that. It has some aspects of it, but there's a bigger picture beyond it.

 

And don't get me started on "fanservicey" characters or characters that were designed in a way to be attractive. That has always been in this series (and nearly every videogame series tbh) and it started with the very first FE game with Linde. And this isn't to say fanservice characters are bad, because Linde is a wonderful character. But let's be real, she was definitely designed to look beautiful and have male fans.

True but like sam said there is big difference in the way Linde is written vs how Tharja is written. For as good as a character as Tharja is you can’t deny her Robin obsession was only made a thing to pander to a certain demographic of people. Like I said earlier there’s a difference between anime tropes and Otaku tropes. I should know I very much am a part of the demographic these sorts of things are supposed to pander. Once you watch enough stuff like ero manga sensei, Fate, Monster Musume, Keijo, etc. it starts to become pretty noticeable. That said I really don’t understand why people lump awakening and fates together so much in terms of fanservice because both games handle it differently.

Awakening as far as overall tone and aesthetic is concerned is very battle shounen. It’s definitely aimed more at Shounen(young boy) demographic. Where fates seems to be aimed more at a younger Otaku demographic and yes there is a difference. Cause as far as Otaku fetishes go fates far outclasses awakening in that regard. Awakening really only has Nowi and Tharja and that’s really as far as it goes. You could argue Severa too but tsunderes exist everywhere. It’s more of a general trope than a typical fetish. Again awakening’s fanservice is really only as bad as say Naruto or Bleach which is to say not very much. Like jumping from awakening to fates in terms of fanservice is like watching Naruto or One piece and then watching Fairy Tail immediately after.

[Dandy Druid]

21 hours ago, Ottservia said:

True but like sam said there is big difference in the way Linde is written vs how Tharja is written. For as good as a character as Tharja is you can’t deny her Robin obsession was only made a thing to pander to a certain demographic of people. Like I said earlier there’s a difference between anime tropes and Otaku tropes. I should know I very much am a part of the demographic these sorts of things are supposed to pander. Once you watch enough stuff like ero manga sensei, Fate, Monster Musume, Keijo, etc. it starts to become pretty noticeable. That said I really don’t understand why people lump awakening and fates together so much in terms of fanservice because both games handle it differently.

Awakening as far as overall tone and aesthetic is concerned is very battle shounen. It’s definitely aimed more at Shounen(young boy) demographic. Where fates seems to be aimed more at a younger Otaku demographic and yes there is a difference. Cause as far as Otaku fetishes go fates far outclasses awakening in that regard. Awakening really only has Nowi and Tharja and that’s really as far as it goes. You could argue Severa too but tsunderes exist everywhere. It’s more of a general trope than a typical fetish. Again awakening’s fanservice is really only as bad as say Naruto or Bleach which is to say not very much. Like jumping from awakening to fates in terms of fanservice is like watching Naruto or One piece and then watching Fairy Tail immediately after.

 

22 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Yeah but there's a probable big difference between Linde and Camilla or Tharja in how they're written. (Man, it's totally good logic how Tharja just suddenly develops a major yandere crush on Robin, for literally no reason other than "Because Robin is the shitty player self-insert", just after meeting him one chapter earlier and not even a full day later in-universe is such good writing and I doubt Linde has that sorta interaction with Kris.)

Awakening and Fates are blatantly trying to pander way, way harder than other FE games and personally it's just obnoxious. (Especially since it's literally the exact opposite of what I like about Player Inserts.)

Also Fae wasn't written to be "Loli but Legal" which is a pretty big distinction in how the Pandering FE games treat their Dragon characters, Fae is a child and it's played for Drama in some kinda dark supports, such as with Igrene while Nowi in Awakening is just there to be "Oh it's legal because she's actually a 1000000 Year old dragon who just looks and mentally has the age of a child."

 

I will agree with both of you on Fates + Awakening having more otaku elements than past games. I'm definitely not a fan of some of the tropes they utilized (Tharja and Nowi/Nah in particular), but I will say that it's ok to have some very anime-esque moments or fanservicey characters. There's a precedent for those two things.

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Dandy Druid said:

 

I will agree with both of you on Fates + Awakening having more otaku elements than past games. I'm definitely not a fan of some of the tropes they utilized (Tharja and Nowi/Nah in particular), but I will say that it's ok to have some very anime-esque moments or fanservicey characters. There's a precedent for those two things.

On that I agree because Fire Emblem has kinda always had an anime influence. Again these games are developed by Japanese nerds. The things they create are inevitably going to be influenced by those sorts of things because that’s the kind of media they’ve been exposed too. Hell even Kaga I believe has stated he’s been influenced by the gundam series. What changes is the kind of anime that influence them.

[Jotari]

I wouldn't say it's recent. Awakening was released nine years ago. If anything I think they took a bit of a step backwards from hard core pandering with Three Houses. The characters designs in that are much more modest, they, very thankfully, didn't shorhorn child units into it (course it was also notoriously rushed, if they did get another year then *shudder* child units might have happened) and even the teacher fetish was dialed back considerably with the direction they took Part 2. Hell they didn't even manage to get the sauna into the original release of the game!...

Edited February 25, 2021 by Jotari

[Sidereal Wraith]

On 2/25/2021 at 6:19 AM, Jotari said:

I wouldn't say it's recent. Awakening was released nine years ago. If anything I think they took a bit of a step backwards from hard core pandering with Three Houses. The characters designs in that are much more modest, they, very thankfully, didn't shorhorn child units into it (course it was also notoriously rushed, if they did get another year then *shudder* child units might have happened) and even the teacher fetish was dialed back considerably with the direction they took Part 2. Hell they didn't even manage to get the sauna into the original release of the game!...

And I give thanks to the Emperor everyday for these changes. Now that TH has become the best selling game in the series, with 3 million+ copies sold, I’m interested to see what the next game has in store for us. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Wraith

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Wraith said:

And I give thanks to the Emperor everyday for these changes. Now that TH has become the best selling game in the series ,with 3 million+ copies sold, I’m interested to see what the next game has in store for us. 

Course on the other hand Heroes has been doing really well too and that's like pander city.