FE9 Tier List!!!

[Dat Nick]

He won't need it at that point period,

Whether he "needs" it or not is irrelevant. Nobody needs BEXP past the early stages of the game. Let's cut off Ike from BEXP after C18, he doesn't need it. Hell, let's cut off Z from BEXP since he doesn't need it once he promotes. And let's cut off Ti from it too while we're at it.

because his offense goes from decent to still decent and his defense goes from shaky to shaky.

And somehow it's any different when Z gains a level.

...Hey, wait a minute.

Stefan: 70 HP, 50 str, 55 spd, 35 def, 30 res, 25 luck

Zihark: 55 HP, 45 str, 60 spd, 30 def, 20 res, 40 luck

...What's this? Stefan is benefiting MORE from an individual levelup than Zihark is. I guess Zihark doesn't improve all that much either, meaning Z doesn't need BEXP either, meaning you just totally contradicted yourself by saying Zihark is entitled to BEXP when Stefan isn't.

And, um, Stefan's offense is quite a step up from "decent". try "fucking win".

It takes him like 40 BEXP to get 20 EXP. For everyone else 40 BEXP ends up being 30 EXP,

big whoop

This justifies cutting Stefan off from BEXP, how?

20 EXP in Titania's case

Hey, since you weren't keen on the George Carlin idea, how about we rename Super Top "Cut off from BEXP" tier?

Add to how you get roughly 300-400 per chapter without that surplus in C17

and there's plenty for Stefan to take some

you've got for someone that's not improving much.

Stefan improves more on an individual level up than most others do, since his growth rates are cool. Not every level up is a promotion.

and he's basically taking away 10-15%

...meaning there's plenty for everybody else.

It's not even "unfair" moreso than "impractical."

huh?

How is Stefan taking less than 10% of the BEXP on a 10 man team "impractical"?

[Lord Raven]

I had some arguments lined up, but let's go back to arguing Zihark v Stefan.

C20 seems to be a good midpoint now that I know that it's a more solid midpoint, and zihark is 20/5 with A Muarim whereas Stefan has nothing at this point.

Support boosts: +1 Def/+22 avoid (Zihark) vs +1 Atk/+5 avoid/+10 hit or some shit (Stefan)

Weapons: Iron Blades, both; +9 Atk, +70 Hit

Stefan is 20/11 (I disagree but shit I'll prove just how cool zihark is) and Zihark is 20/5.

Zihark HP 37, Atk 26, Hit 120, AS 24, Def 14, Res 6, Evade 77, Dodge 12, Crit 26, Adept 22

Stefan HP 40, Atk 29, Hit 129, AS 27, Def 13, Res 10, Evade 60, Dodge 6, Crit 29, Astra 14

At any rate, look at their attack stats. Stefan does four more dmage.

Stefan takes 1 more damage from physical attacks, 4 less from magical attacks. If magic attacks were greater in number, this would be relevant. But they're not.

Zihark evades 12% more of the time.

Most enemies have hits in the 100s which lead to Stefan getting hit more often and for more damage. Not enough damage to matter though. All enemies are getting doubled. Everything but the Wyvern Riders and Knights can get two rounded by both, whereas Stefan holds an advantage there.

Zihark has a 22% adept vs Stefan's 14% astra, and negligible crit advantage.

Finally, Swordmasters get hit rates in the 50s and 60s against Stefan, do at least 8-10 damage, and have 20% crit rates. Zihark has like 10% crit rates from them with hit rates in the 30s-40s. Massive difference here.

There's also existing for four more chapters while not being too bad in any of them.

Stefan has a slight advantage, but shit is Zihark winning in defense. With Brom support it backs up my statement that Zihark > Stefan, and also later on Zihark's avoid pretty much goes further above Stefan's whereas their offenses pretty much don't matter because they're the same.

[Dat Nick]

With Brom support it backs up my statement that Zihark > Stefan

....we just went over this. Brom giving cool support boosts to Zihark does NOT make the support any more likely to happen.

[Lord Raven]

It's not like it's limited to Zihark. You've got Boyd too, who probably likes the boosts better than Titania's.

Brom is also pretty durable. And even then, lower mid is not bad at all.

[Dat Nick]

wait, those boosts were for Muarim, not Brom

And yes, Lower Mid is pretty crummy, and that's with his durability factored in. Z gets the Muarim support, but not Brom since he's not likely to be played.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Tino]

wait, those boosts were for Muarim, not Brom

And yes, Lower Mid is pretty crummy, and that's with his durability factored in. Z gets the Muarim support, but not Brom since he's not likely to be played.

Brom is at leats upper mid material due to excellent durability and pretty decent offense with the KW. And otherwise there's still Ilyana.

[Lord Raven]

Apparently "lower mid is crummy"... we may as well rename it "upper low" if it is crummy. But the units in there aren't crummy, at any rate.

As for Brom,

Upper Mid

Volke

Zihark

Muarim

Stefan

Makalov

Rhys

Soren

Mordecai

Geoffrey

Nephenee

Lower Mid

Ranulf

Tormod

Ilyana

Calill

Brom

Haar

Gatrie

Tauroneo

Lethe

I have no clue what he's doing below Neph. At least, an entire tier.

Edited February 13, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Apparently "lower mid is crummy"

It IS crummy. It's one tier up from low.

But the units in there aren't crummy, at any rate.

...The fact that Ilyana is in that tier really does tell me something about how useful the units overall in it are.

[dondon151]

Not sure where's the most recent tier list but there's like 22 people above Brom and 20 people under him. Being in the middle of the tier list is average, not crummy.

[Reikken]

Stefan is 20/11 (I disagree but shit I'll prove just how cool zihark is) and Zihark is 20/5.

I disagree as well. I would be more inclined to say that Stefan is 20/12.

[Lord Raven]

It shouldn't make much difference should it ?_?

[riariadne]

Zihark is better than Stefan, sweet tooth! His starting luck is better than stefan's, who is 17 levels and 1 promotion ahead of him!

also the new username kinda fails sweet tooth

i change my list nao.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Reinfleche

[Dat Nick]

His starting luck is better than stefan's,

wow, THAT'S the only argument you provide?

and I believe NG's list is about fifty times more accurate than yours and any reasonable person will agree, so don't bother with your list because NG's is the only one we're intrested in.

[dondon151]

Creator of Serenes Forest's FE7, FE8, and FE9 tier lists.

This is not a very funny joke.

[Dat Nick]

12 years old

I think that explains everything.

[Vykan12]

I posted this on lamefaqs, might as well bring it here too.

Calill > Ilyana

Ilyana lv 20/6: 33 hp, 8 str, 19 mag, 21 skl, 17 spd, 8 def, 22 res, 15 lck

Calill lv 20/6: 32 hp, 8 str, 19 mag, 18 skl, 18 spd, 8 def, 17 res, 16 lck

You’ll notice that they are very comparable statistically. However, note that Ilyana will not be 20/6 when Calill joins, since that would involve giving her 21 levels in 8 chapters, which averages to 2.625 levels per chapter, which is absolutely absurd. Hell, there’s a chance Ilyana won’t even be promoted yet, but assuming she is, we would then have:

Ilyana lv 20/1: 30 hp, 7 str, 16 mag, 18 skl, 15 spd, 7 def, 19 res, 12 lck

Calill lv 20/6: 32 hp, 8 str, 19 mag, 18 skl, 18 spd, 8 def, 17 res, 16 lck

Now Ilyana is obviously losing, most notably in the spd and mag department.

Now consider growth rates (+ for Calill, - for Ilyana)

+5% Hp, +0% Str, -5% Mag, 0% Skl, +15% Spd, +25% Def, -15% Res, -15% Lck

So not only is Calill winning in the 2 most important offensive stats, she’s also going to increase those offensive leads thanks to her superior spd growth. Morevoer, her def growth easily overrides any other minor advantage Ilyana has (lol res and luck).

Onto supports. Ilyana’s options are pretty weak. We can throw away Gatrie, Mia and Lucia for obvious reasons, but even if she took Gatrie or Mia, she’s not getting what she really wants, which is avoid. This leaves Mordecai and Zihark. Mordecai I won’t argue against, but Zihark wants A Muarim B Brom before considering Ilyana, so there’s a chance that won’t happen.

Calill, on the other hand, has nothing but supporters who want her. Nephenee, Tormod and Geoffrey all have very small support lists, so by that logic alone Calill has a good shot at netting them. In fact, Geoffrey only has Elincia as an alternative, so if he’s in play, Calill’s practically guaranteed to get him. Then looking at bonuses, Nephenee gets full avoid and partial atk, which is a lot better than partial avoid, atk and full hit she’d get from Devdan. As for Tormod, he gets full atk and partial avoid, which is better than what he gets out of Sothe, Devdan or Reyson, which are all bad support partners anyway for pretty obvious reasons (horrible combat unit who’s only fielded for thieving, a below average unit and a non-attacker who goes around everywhere vigoring people).

So re-examining our second comparison:

Ilyana lv 20/1 (A Mordecai): 30 hp, 7 str, 17 mag, 18 skl, 15 spd, 10 def, 22 res, 12 cev, 42 avo

B Zihark: 11 def, 23 res, 52 avo

Calill lv 20/6: 32 hp, 8 str, 19 mag, 18 skl, 18 spd, 8 def, 17 res, 16 cev, 52 avo

Notice that even with Ilyana fully supported and Calill having nothing, she’s still arguably winning. Supports don’t affect the fact that Calill’s still winning mag and spd sizeably, and most of Ilyana’s advantages are frivolous. 2 def doesn’t do much if it doesn’t allow you to take an extra hit, and Calill leads in hp anyway. She also leads in avo sizeably if that B Zihark doesn’t happen. Ilyana also has that rather huge resistance stat, but considering how frequent enemy mages are, that’s about as significant an advantage as Calill’s superior crit evade.

Then, obviously things become a blowout once Calill’s supports begin to establish. In addition to the aforementioned growth leads and their impact over time, Calill also has better weapon ranks (B in everything, meaning she can use siege tomes of any type and can also use A rank tomes fairly soon, possibly before they’re even available), and gains up to 20 avo and 3 atk (A Neph, B Tormod). Ilyana has no way to match any of this outside of band usage, but that has consequences for other members of the team while she’s around.

Speaking of which, Calill also starts off as a ready-made, RNG proof unit, whereas Ilyana has to go through some earlygame suckage. Sure, Ilyana might have a few chapters of positive performance while Calill isn’t around, but overall, she might not even have a head start in terms of overall team contribution when Calill joins.

I easily see Calill being better, I would even argue she’s better than Soren though that may be pushing it.

[riariadne]

This is not a very funny joke.

So? I made the topics. Probably should've had that I made the topic there instead.

[YokaiKnight]

The problem, Reinfleche, is that no one thinks your tier lists are that good.

You should become a good enough reader that you can easily tell when people are being derogatory. It can tell you something valuable or save you from wasting your time, or of course let you know when people are making fun of you.

If you're 12, though, then you've got more than enough time to do it.

[Lord Raven]

Oh yeah, Vykan, I've moved Callil above Ilyana.

[Florete]

Geez, I never knew Calill had a 40% Defense growth. That's pretty nuts.

I could also see her being > Soren, but then again Soren has the advantage of Staves on his side, so....

[Mekkah]

But he also has the downside of being a detriment earlygame, using up resources as well. It's easily arguable Soren doesn't add much at all to the team when you consider how useful staves are on a team that has a hard time dying. Sure, B Ike is cool, but Ike has no trouble with getting just Oscar and Titania instead. Stefan has no real other options though.

[Vykan12]

I have the site's most recent list posted here.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage....;topic=49759573

Neo brings up some good points in that topic.

[Ϲharlie]

With the new tier topic being opened, I think it's time to put this one to an end. Hell, I'm pretty sure this topic had been locked before the server nonsense anyway.