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Jotari

Stat Inflation throughout the Series

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So I've recently went to the painstaking trouble of getting the 20/20 averages for every playable unit in the series and compiling them into a list. This has allowed me to get the average end game stats for all the games in the series and in so doing, we can see how inflation has changed throughout the series. The results are as follows (the first three games in the series have been substituted by their remakes).

Game HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Con Mov Total Growth Stats Total All Stats
Shadow Dragon 43.96271186 19.25408163 13.57 19.16864407 19.47372881 15.61610169 13.88135593 5.876440678 16.31271186 7.542372881 150.8030647 174.6581494
Shadows Of Valentia 49.8745614 37.52982456 37.52982456 33.79649123 30.98947368 26.10438596 26.70701754 7.837894737 0 6.526315789 250.3694737 256.8957895
New Mystery Of The Emblem 48.24375 23.19071429 15.3725 22.83409091 23.03465909 19.94545455 16.24886364 6.765340909 NA 7.693181818 175.6353734 183.3285552
Genealogy Of The Holy War Gen 1 51.15833333 18.23913043 14.04 19.62916667 21.47916667 13.27916667 15.65416667 9.675 0 7.375 163.1541304 170.5291304
Genealogy Of The Holy War Gen2 60.53091787 18.9372549 15.35205128 22.08478261 24.3821256 23.94468599 17.53357488 9.369082126 0 6.961352657 192.1344753 199.0958279
Thracia 776 43.79711538 14.40307692 9.445192308 18.58173077 18.79807692 15.8625 12.74769231 9.445192308 11.99096154 8.194807692 143.0805769 163.2663462
Binding Blade 47.90241935 21.64021739 23 20.2983871 20.74758065 17.84596774 14.75983871 12.38032258 9.790322581 6.483870968 178.5747335 194.8489271
Blazing Blade 47.39659091 23.03787879 22.675 21.86931818 23.22840909 18.94545455 15.5125 15.45454545 9.329545455 6.431818182 188.119697 203.8810606
Sacred Stones 48.56538462 23.34363636 24.23409091 22.10897436 23.03846154 19.97564103 15.71410256 16.20064103 9.487179487 6.5 193.1809324 209.1681119
Path Of Radiance 49.10903846 23.34529412 12.740625 25.32307692 24.49134615 17.59923077 20.15365385 17.04 22.92893617 7.468085106 189.8022653 220.1992865
Radiant Dawn 57.95 32.24642857 19.10616438 35.10273973 33.74931507 29.88972603 28.56027397 27.87739726 31.06506849 7.534246575 264.482045 303.0813601
Awakening 58.62768421 27.40686842 16.22080263 31.85321053 31.39894737 26.35981579 24.26161842 17.08913158 NA 6.657894737 233.2180789 239.8759737
Fates 40.4954 26.81117886 16.70192308 27.9632 28.6314 24.6554 22.9268 21.9126 NA 6.656 210.0979019 216.7539019
Three Houses 49.31625 25.52625 21.4625 27.0275 26.12 19.76125 18.58 17.3025 5.10525 5.775 205.09625 215.9765

 

Bright green cells represent the highest value in the series for a stat, while blue represents the lowest. I've given too totals on the right. One for the stats that grow as you level up, so everything excluding con and move, and one including them too. Con here is taken to mean the stat that reduces weapon weight, so for some games it is equal to strength, and in others it's 0 where there is no mechanic to negate weapon weight, and where weapon weight doesn't exist at all, it's NA. There are of course a tonne of caveats as to how I got these numbers, if you're really interested you can read more here on the dedicated topic.

 

Overall the newer games have been accused of having higher stat inflation than the older games, and that is true to some extent, but by far the game with the highest stats over all was Radiant Dawn. Even when counting Shadows of Valentia's overclasses Radiant Dawn still managed to win out in every category except strength and magic (which are copied in Shadows of Valentia since hybrid units exist in it, unlike the game boy games). The one lone exception to this is Genealogy of the Holy War Gen 2, which has the highest HP stat in the series. This is both surprising, for such an early game in the series to have the highest stat, but also unsurprising when you consider units can get 100%+ HP growths and the cap is 70 in that game.

On the inverse, Fates has the lowest HP average in the series, which is pretty surprising, as Fateswakening is the go to example of stat inflation in my mind.

Thracia has the lowest stat total in the series, also rather unsurprising, I think. Scrolls were not factored in to the averages, but even if they were, universal 20 caps would still probably sick it at the bottom. It does have the highest movement in the series though, also unsurprising when you consider it's the only game that let's you grow the stat, though really I expect the number of mounted vs unmounted units is the real deciding factor there.

Res seems to be the stat that has fluctuated the least, being a direct line of increasing it's value throughout the series, with the exception of a leap in Radiant Dawn (which I think isn't entirely due to Radiant Dawn's massive inflation, but also just Radiant Dawn in general where a lot of unit's have comparable defense and res). Other stats, while there is an upward trend, tend to fluctuate more. Representing these numbers online graphs could be interesting too.

Highly possible I've made mistakes here, so if anything jumps out at you as particularly strange, then do question it.

EDIT:

Oh yeah. Something else I wanted to note were the averages of the stats across the series. In otherwords all the stats above added together and divided by the number of games. It results in this.

Game HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Con Mov
Series Averages 49.78072553 23.92227395 18.67504815 24.83152236 24.96876362 20.69891291 18.80296132 13.87329205 10.54636142 6.985710458

 

So then the game with the closest to average

HP is Shadows of Valentia

Str is Path of Radiance, the GBA games and New Mystery

Mag is Radiant Dawn, funnily enough. Super low in that game, but average for the series.

Skl is Path of Radiance

Spd is also Path of Radiance

Lck is Three Houses

Def  is also Three Houses

Res is Binding Blade

Con is Binding Blade too, but that stat is wildly variable based on how it's used in the series

Mov is Genealogy of the Holy War Gen 1, funnily enough given Gen 2 has the highest amount of move.

And then the game closest to the average growth stats over all is Genealogy Gen 2, I guess that's down to being in the cross section of old game and game with ugenics.

The game closest to the average calculating all stats is Sacred Stones.

 

 

Edited by Jotari

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8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Overall the newer games have been accused of having higher stat inflation than the older games, and that is true to some extent, but by far the game with the highest stats over all was Radiant Dawn.

Once you get to grinding for Apotheosis or beyond 20/20 in Awakening, then the stat inflation is higher there I would say. Minimum 30 stat cap without personal modifiers, maximum cap of 45 without modifiers, 50 for Str. 

This also leaves out non-growth forms of stat increase, Pair Up, tonics, and rallies bumps up Awakening's stats again.

It is the case that a few Laguz classes can get multiple 20+, 40+ when shifted, stat caps. But reaching them is a different matter.

Fates having slightly less than PoR feels off to me, because PoR has 30 at its highest non-Laguz caps, whereas Fates puts it at 35 (or 40 for Str), is HP deflation the reason?

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2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Once you get to grinding for Apotheosis or beyond 20/20 in Awakening, then the stat inflation is higher there I would say. Minimum 30 stat cap without personal modifiers, maximum cap of 45 without modifiers, 50 for Str. 

This also leaves out non-growth forms of stat increase, Pair Up, tonics, and rallies bumps up Awakening's stats again.

Yeah, there was a question as to how to handle Awakening, because even in conventional play you're expect to reclass at least a few times. No real good solution though. Even counting caps (what Awakeningn eventually boils down to) would be bad as units hit caps at radically different points and caps are way higher than their focused stats. Shadows of Valentia I did include overclasses for, which are essentially post game stuff on par with Awakening's limit break, but I actually did all this a while ago and figuring out the non overclass caps for Shadows of Valentia would be time consuming.

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It is the case that a few Laguz classes can get multiple 20+, 40+ when shifted, stat caps. But reaching them is a different matter.

Fates having slightly less than PoR feels off to me, because PoR has 30 at its highest non-Laguz caps, whereas Fates puts it at 35 (or 40 for Str), is HP deflation the reason?

For total caps, Fates is only losing to Path of Radiance because Path of Radiance has really high con (as it's identical to its strength stat) while Fates doesn't have con at all. The growth total without con or move factored in puts Fates at a comfortable 20 points above Path of Radiance. Path of Radiance does beat Fates in defense though. Which seems right. Path of Radiance is quite a bulky game.

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I really don't think 20/20 stats are indicative of endgame stats in the vast majority of games. Particularly Awakening, where use of Second Seals is really important (which is why it's the poster child for FE stat inflation), but also in a lot of the older games, you're unlikely to reach 20/20 without excessive grinding.

Also not clear why you have Con in a bunch of games that don't have it as a stat (and strongly disagree with your stated reason). Weight mitigation and Con aren't synonyms, you know. And you appear to be missing Charm from TH?

I think a more useful line of inquiry would be looking at enemy stats, because player stats can vary so much based on playstyle.

Might be interesting to see data for FE1-3, too.

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In Radiant Dawn it's not really 20/20 stats but 20/20/20 stats.
This alone could of course be seen as stat inflation, but considering how most of the cast already starts in 2nd tier or higher, the relative increase in power might be rather modest. The few 1st tier units are also infamously hard to bring up to speed with the rest of the cast.

Thracia and Mystery are also special cases, considering you can modify growths to an obscene degree.

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1 hour ago, Seafarer said:

I really don't think 20/20 stats are indicative of endgame stats in the vast majority of games. Particularly Awakening, where use of Second Seals is really important (which is why it's the poster child for FE stat inflation), but also in a lot of the older games, you're unlikely to reach 20/20 without excessive grinding.

Also not clear why you have Con in a bunch of games that don't have it as a stat (and strongly disagree with your stated reason). Weight mitigation and Con aren't synonyms, you know. And you appear to be missing Charm from TH?

I think a more useful line of inquiry would be looking at enemy stats, because player stats can vary so much based on playstyle.

I actually did calculated Charm in the original documented linked in the op. Three House's average charm is 22.5175. I just didn't see any use it noting it here given it's only appeared in one game and is thus a static stat. Three Houses, while I'm mentioning it, was a particularly subjective entree to calculate for, as characters have no set classes, so I used the classes they have either when they join your house from another house, or when you fight them as enemies.

1 hour ago, Seafarer said:

Might be interesting to see data for FE1-3, too.

If you can get me a source for the 20/20 stats for those games I could add them to the list.

Edited by Jotari

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11 hours ago, Jotari said:

On the inverse, Fates has the lowest HP average in the series, which is pretty surprising, as Fateswakening is the go to example of stat inflation in my mind.

Tbh, this doesn't seem very surprising at all.  Even a little bit of playing Fates and you'll notice that your HP stats seem to be trash near universally.  When I played CQ hard I'm pretty sure only a couple of my units even broke 40.  Units just can't take very many hits there.

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I think the reason for the Fates HP average is the heavy reduction of Class growths in HP. I don't think any class adds more than 30% which was like the bare minimum in New Mystery and Awakening.

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Okay, because I'm a crazy person, I went and statted the first three (or four) games in the series. Figured out a new method to automate 20/20 stats myself so it didn't take as long as I thought it would. I also redid the Shadows of Valentia stats so units promote as soon as they can rather than 20/20/20/20/20 which is ridiculously to actually achieve in that game.  The Gaiden stats also a bit wonky, as I had no way to account for class bases adjustments (I did for Shadows of Valentia as someone has made a calculator). Without further ado, here is actually the entire series.

Game HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Con Mov Average G Stats Average All Stats
Shadow Dragon NES 35.48076923 12.925 NA 13.09038462 15.68653846 12.9 11.92884615 0.1346153846 NA 7.192307692 14.59230769 13.66730769
Gaiden 37.365625 20.3234375 20.3234375 16.2953125 15.4140625 12.91875 13.1359375 7.09375 NA 6.175 17.85878906 16.56059028
Old Mystery Book 1 36.93953488 14.275 8.871428571 12.33846154 15.18076923 10.73636364 12.1804878 4.397391304 NA 7.47826087 14.36492962 13.5997442
Old Mystery Book 2 36.02790698 14.575 9.22 12.82857143 15.15 12.07272727 12.47727273 4.871777778 NA 7.622222222 14.65290702 13.87171982
Genealogy Of The Holy War Gen 1 51.15833333 18.23913043 14.04 19.62916667 21.47916667 13.27916667 15.65416667 9.675 0 7.375 20.3942663 17.05291304
Genealogy Of The Holy War Gen 2 60.53091787 18.9372549 15.35205128 22.08478261 24.3821256 23.94468599 17.53357488 9.369082126 0 6.961352657 24.01680941 19.90958279
Thracia 776 43.79711538 14.40307692 9.445192308 18.58173077 18.79807692 15.8625 12.74769231 9.445192308 11.99096154 8.194807692 17.88507212 16.32663462
Binding Blade 47.90241935 21.64021739 23 20.2983871 20.74758065 17.84596774 14.75983871 12.38032258 9.790322581 6.483870968 22.32184169 19.48489271
Blazing Blade 47.39659091 23.03787879 22.675 21.86931818 23.22840909 18.94545455 15.5125 15.45454545 9.329545455 6.431818182 23.51496212 20.38810606
Sacred Stones 48.56538462 23.34363636 24.23409091 22.10897436 23.03846154 19.97564103 15.71410256 16.20064103 9.487179487 6.5 24.14761655 20.91681119
Path Of Radiance 49.10903846 23.34529412 12.740625 25.32307692 24.49134615 17.59923077 20.15365385 17.04 22.92893617 7.468085106 23.72528316 22.01992865
Radiant Dawn 57.95 32.24642857 19.10616438 35.10273973 33.74931507 29.88972603 28.56027397 27.87739726 31.06506849 7.534246575 33.06025563 30.30813601
Shadow Dragon 43.96271186 19.25408163 13.57 19.16864407 19.47372881 15.61610169 13.88135593 5.876440678 16.31271186 7.542372881 18.85038309 17.46581494
New Mystery Of The Emblem 48.24375 23.19071429 15.3725 22.83409091 23.03465909 19.94545455 16.24886364 6.765340909 NA 7.693181818 21.95442167 20.36983947
Awakening 58.62768421 27.40686842 16.22080263 31.85321053 31.39894737 26.35981579 24.26161842 17.08913158 NA 6.657894737 29.15225987 26.65288596
Fates 40.4954 26.81117886 16.70192308 27.9632 28.6314 24.6554 22.9268 21.9126 NA 6.656 26.26223774 24.08376688
Shadows Of Valentia 42.9877193 24.61477273 19.86388889 18.58947368 18.43157895 13.7877193 15.89824561 9.061403509 0 6.333333333 20.40435025 16.95681353
Three Houses 49.31625 25.52625 21.4625 27.0275 26.12 19.76125 18.58 17.3025 5.10525 5.775 25.63703125 21.59765
                         
                         
Game HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Con Mov Total Growth Stats Total All Stats
Series Averages 46.43650841 21.33862338 16.59997674 21.4992792 22.13534256 18.11644194 16.78640171 11.77484066 10.54636142 7.004153041 21.83592683 19.22379291

 

The results are pretty unsurprising. Shadow Dragon on the NES takes most of the titles from Thracia for the lowest stat counts, though it's SNES Book counterpart takes a few. Note the hilariously low Res stat in Shadow Dragon NES, the result of every character in the game having a Res stat of 0 while Gotoh has a res stat of 7.

Another funny thing to note, is with the redoing of the Shadows of Valentia stats, The Sacred Stones takes the prize for highest valued Magic stat, which was released back to back with Path of Radiance, which featured the lowest magic stat. So bit of a weird year for magic there.

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It's weird to see Sacred Stones highest in anything. I assume the Magic averages only count magical units? Whereas, non-GBA/Valentia games would have a ton of physical units with unimpressive Magic, thus dragging the averages down.

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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's weird to see Sacred Stones highest in anything. I assume the Magic averages only count magical units? Whereas, non-GBA/Valentia games would have a ton of physical units with unimpressive Magic, thus dragging the averages down.

Yes, and no. I've removed what I call "Non competitive stats" form the averages. So if units have like less than 3 in a str or mag stat, it is removed from the averages list to avoid mages being way more powerful than they otherwise would be. Units with a somewhat decent magic stat that still aren't magical units retain their magic stats however, as magic weapons exist in most games and skills like Imbue in Radiant Dawn work off of magic. Sacred Stones being number one in magic is still most surely a result of that though, as physical units with a decentish magic stats is becoming more common in the series.

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