What if Seliph had a different mother? A (not so deep) analysis

[indigoasis]

There was a blog post (that I can't find) that I stumbled upon a few years ago, and it proposed a rather interesting scenario: What if Sigurd could marry someone other than Deirdre? And how would Seliph be affected?

This is going to be a pretty long post, so reader discretion is advised.

For those unfamiliar with Genealogy of the Holy War, there is a mechanic similar to Awakening and Fates' S-Support mechanic (Support Conversations work differently in FE4, though). Characters that end their turns adjacent to each other will gain points toward a hidden Love stat, and once two characters reach 500 Love points, they will become Lovers. This mechanic is a pretty big part of the 1st generation of the game (but not required). I can't quite do the topic justice, so I'll link the Love Growth page on the main Serene's Forest site if you'd like to look further into it.

Anyway, as per the game's mechanics and plot, it is impossible for Sigurd to marry anyone other than Deirdre. Essentially, it's because they are destined to be together or whatever. It's a similar situation to Quan and Ethlyn where they cannot marry anyone else because they are already married to each other (Sigurd is a slightly different case in that he isn't Lovers with anyone until Deirdre joins the army, but even then, he can't marry anyone except Deirdre).

...But what if Sigurd could marry someone else? How would Seliph turn out? 

Quick Disclaimer: I'm just one guy, and while I have more free time than I probably deserve, I'm only going to be looking at Seliph's growths, inheritable skills, and Holy Blood. Call me cheap if you want, but there's a lot of math involved with starting stats, and there are a ton of variables in calculating that (parent's level, respective stats, class bases, etc.), so I've opted to skip over it. Also, the growths that I've put will include Holy Blood Bonuses (you can check that here for reference), so the growths shown are (or at least should be) accurate.

With that out of the way, let's get into it!

~ ~ ~

For reference, this is what Seliph normally inherits with Deirdre as his mother:

Spoiler

HP - 140%  STR - 55%  MAG - 30%  SKL - 60%  SPD - 35%  LCK 45%  DEF - 45%  RES - 30%

Total Growths: 440%

Skills: Pursuit, Nihil

Holy Blood: Major Baldr, Minor Naga

The theoretical bachelorettes are Edain, Ayra, Lachesis, Silvia, Erinys, Tailtiu, and Brigid. I'm not including Ethlyn for what should be obvious reasons.

The spoiler tags below include the growth rates, inherited skills, and Holy Blood. Note: Seliph always inherits Major Baldr Holy Blood and Pursuit from Sigurd, so all other Holy Blood and skills that he gets are entirely reliant on his mother. I've also separated the mothers into different spoiler tags so you can pick and choose at your leisure. They are in order of when they are recruited in the first generation; Edain first, then Ayra, so on and so forth.

Let me know your thoughts and who you think makes the best mother for Seliph! I'll allow Deirdre as an option as well to keep it all fair.

Spoiler

Edain

HP -  155%  STR - 60%  MAG - 20%  SKL - 60%  SPD - 45%  LCK - 85%  DEF - 50%  RES - 7.5%

Total Growths: 482.5%

Skills: Pursuit

Holy Blood: Major Baldr, Minor Ulir

Spoiler

Ayra

HP - 155%  STR - 65%  MAG - 7.5%  SKL - 95%  SPD - 45%  LCK - 50%  DEF - 50%  RES - 7.5%

Total Growths: 475%

Skills: Pursuit, Nihil, Astra

Holy Blood: Major Baldr. Minor Od

Spoiler

Lachesis

HP - 150%  STR - 90%  MAG - 7.5%  SKL - 55%  SPD - 40%  LCK - 60%  DEF - 50%  RES - 10%

Total Growths: 462.5%

Skills: Pursuit, Charm

Holy Blood: Major Baldr, Minor Hezul

Spoiler

Silvia

HP - 140%  STR - 55%  MAG - 25%  SKL - 55%  SPD - 35%  LCK - 60%  DEF - 45%  RES - 35%

Total Growths: 450%

Skills: Pursuit, Adept, Miracle

Holy Blood: Major Baldr, Minor Bragi

Spoiler

Erinys

HP - 135%  STR - 60%  MAG - 10%  SKL - 60%  SPD - 45%  LCK - 50%  DEF - 55%  RES - 10%

Total Growths: 425%

Skills: Pursuit

Holy Blood: Major Baldr

Spoiler

Tailtiu

HP - 150%  STR - 55%  MAG - 15%  SKL - 95%  SPD - 50%  LCK - 65%  DEF - 45%  RES - 10%

Total Growths: 485%

Skills: Pursuit, Wrath

Holy Blood: Major Baldr, Minor Thrud

Spoiler

Brigid

HP - 155%  STR - 65%  MAG - 15%  SKL - 65%  SPD - 40%  LCK - 75%  DEF - 50%  RES - 7.5%

Total Growths: 472.5%

Skills: Pursuit

Holy Blood: Major Baldr, Minor Ulir

~ ~ ~

Just for fun, I decided to calculate how Julia would turn out with Sigurd as her father (which is impossible in-game).

Spoiler

Julia's Inheritance (Normal/Arvis)

HP - 90%  STR - 10%  MAG - 100%  SKL - 20%  SPD - 30%  LCK - 30%  DEF - 10%  RES - 50%

Skills: Pursuit, Adept, Nihil

Holy Blood: Major Naga, Minor Fjalar

Julia's Inheritance (Sigurd)

HP - 115%  STR - 35%  MAG - 52.5%  SKL - 45%  SPD - 25%  LCK - 30%  DEF - 30%  RES - 52.5%

Skills: Pursuit, Nihil

Holy Blood: Major Naga, Minor Baldr

~ ~ ~

I hope you guys enjoyed this, and thanks for reading! Again, let me know your thoughts!

Edited March 4, 2021 by indigoasis

[Sayyyaka]

It's hard to really imagine Sigurd being with anyone but Deirdre but I think Ayra would be the best pick.  There could be some amusing interactions after Ayra attacks Sigurd, and since that's the chapter Sigurd falls in love anyway, and with the whole Grannvale/Isaach drama, it could've been...interesting.  It'd also give Shannan even more reason to raise Seliph besides his heavy gratitude towards Sigurd.  idk, I think if not for Deirdre this might actually be the most sensible pairing.

Oh right, stats and skills.  Well, growths wise Ayra!Seliph seems average among these?  Though still solid.  That Lachesis!Seliph STR though.  I think Seliph!Ayra with Astra alone would be more fun than any of the rest, since he already becomes jesus on wheels Ver. 2.0.0 normally, so yeah, my answer stays the same regardless of which way I look at it.

I never really thought about this alternate universe! lol

[Dandy Druid]

2 minutes ago, Sayyyaka said:

It's hard to really imagine Sigurd being with anyone but Deirdre but I think Ayra would be the best pick.  There could be some amusing interactions after Ayra attacks Sigurd, and since that's the chapter Sigurd falls in love anyway, and with the whole Grannvale/Isaach drama, it could've been...interesting.  It'd also give Shannan even more reason to raise Seliph besides his heavy gratitude towards Sigurd.  idk, I think if not for Deirdre this might actually be the most sensible pairing.

Oh right, stats and skills.  Well, growths wise Ayra!Seliph seems average among these?  Though still solid.  That Lachesis!Seliph STR though.  I think Seliph!Ayra with Astra alone would be more fun than any of the rest, since he already becomes jesus on wheels Ver. 2.0.0 normally, so yeah, my answer stays the same regardless of which way I look at it.

I never really thought about this alternate universe! lol

Any skill that isn't Nihil would be better imo. Astra is heaps of fun and is the best skill he could get here. Lachesis gives him the growths he wants though. The only mother I found underwhelming was Erinys, which is weird, but even some of the less physical mothers offer Seliph more (Edain gives him better growths while Silvia gives Seliph Adept and Miracle). We don't know the base stats though, and that's what could set Erin!Seliph apart from the others. But no child of Ayra is a slouch, she's probably the best mother with Lachesis coming in second. Taillte mayyyyy be the third best? Only because Wrath is great.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Kind of funny how Tailtyu!Seliph has the highest speed growth.

[Jotari]

You know I think this is all perfectly possible to do in the game's engine. That is to say Seliph's growth rates and holy blood is not pregenerated, it is based on who his parents are. Deirdre is just hardcoded to be Sigurd's lover. So in theory you could change who their lovers are. Though I think Seliph might actually be attached to Deirdre rather than Sigurd, like all the other children. So...how about Seliph with Deirdre paired with all the men?

3 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Any skill that isn't Nihil would be better imo. Astra is heaps of fun and is the best skill he could get here. Lachesis gives him the growths he wants though. The only mother I found underwhelming was Erinys, which is weird, but even some of the less physical mothers offer Seliph more (Edain gives him better growths while Silvia gives Seliph Adept and Miracle). We don't know the base stats though, and that's what could set Erin!Seliph apart from the others. But no child of Ayra is a slouch, she's probably the best mother with Lachesis coming in second. Taillte mayyyyy be the third best? Only because Wrath is great.

Nihil does let him beat Julius without receive a crit to the face.

[Dandy Druid]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You know I think this is all perfectly possible to do in the game's engine. That is to say Seliph's growth rates and holy blood is not pregenerated, it is based on who his parents are. Deirdre is just hardcoded to be Sigurd's lover. So in theory you could change who their lovers are. Though I think Seliph might actually be attached to Deirdre rather than Sigurd, like all the other children. So...how about Seliph with Deirdre paired with all the men?

Nihil does let him beat Julius without receive a crit to the face.

That is true. But who needs Nihil when you can proc Astra with Tyrfing? Granted, Nihil is 100% while Astra is not, but you can use save states or the turn saves, depending on what emulator you use.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Dandy Druid said:

That is true. But who needs Nihil when you can proc Astra with Tyrfing? Granted, Nihil is 100% while Astra is not, but you can use save states or the turn saves, depending on what emulator you use.

Well Julius has Nihil too...so Seliph would. Seliph would need Nihil to beat him, because Astra wouldn't work on Julius.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

You know I think this is all perfectly possible to do in the game's engine. That is to say Seliph's growth rates and holy blood is not pregenerated, it is based on who his parents are. Deirdre is just hardcoded to be Sigurd's lover. So in theory you could change who their lovers are. Though I think Seliph might actually be attached to Deirdre rather than Sigurd, like all the other children. So...how about Seliph with Deirdre paired with all the men?

Nihil does let him beat Julius without receive a crit to the face.

I might remember it wrong but iirc Seliph is indeed tied to Deidre as a solo child. Mechanically speaking Julia isn't Deidre's child. As you mentioned it kinda make sense if its the case since Seliph, just like every daughter character in the game, is a pallete swap of Deidre

 

but i dont exactly know the game mechanic inside out lol, its just what i thought based on my interpretation on Nightmare module usages lol

[Shrimpica]

While y'all all talking about it from a gameplay prespective (which is fine) i actually find it much more interesting to look how the story will change in that regard

First of all, it will be better since Sigurd x Deirdre isn't any good

Would Deirdre still be in the spirit forest in that case, or join the army somehow? 

If she stays in the forest, will Manfroy find her? Will their plans still advance steadly?

Arvis x Deirdre won't have that much of an impact, if at all.

Could different alliance happen because of that?

16 hours ago, Sayyyaka said:

I think Ayra would be the best pick.

Honestly who i shipped Sigurd with since they were my frontliners when i started FE4 before Deirdre happened

I remember some people laughing at me back then when i shipped Sigurd with Ayra xD

[Fëanen]

If we're assuming there wouldn't be a change so that Astra can be used by mounted units, Ayra would actually justify the dismount option. Mobility vs. broken skill is an interesting tradeoff.

[BrightBow]

If Seliph's mother was anyone else, he would have no claim to the throne and his rebellion would probably fail.

Unless maybe Julia becomes the figurehead of the rebellion. Assuming they can figure out her heritage.

[Dandy Druid]

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well Julius has Nihil too...so Seliph would. Seliph would need Nihil to beat him, because Astra wouldn't work on Julius.

I thought Nihil was only effective against Critical hits in this game. Astra is not considered a critical, unless the skill's description is slightly off (could be).

[indigoasis]

21 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

The only mother I found underwhelming was Erinys, which is weird, but even some of the less physical mothers offer Seliph more (Edain gives him better growths while Silvia gives Seliph Adept and Miracle). We don't know the base stats though, and that's what could set Erin!Seliph apart from the others.

Erinys doesn't pass any Holy Blood (or the bonuses that would come with it), and while she would normally pass Pursuit, Sigurd already passes that down to Seliph. She also has the lowest total growths of all the mothers (again, because no Holy Blood bonuses), but you do make a good point about starting stats! That could really be the deal maker or deal breaker.

21 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Taillte mayyyyy be the third best? Only because Wrath is great.

18 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Kind of funny how Tailtyu!Seliph has the highest speed growth.

^ ^ ^

Wrath and highest Speed growth are top tier.

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

You know I think this is all perfectly possible to do in the game's engine. That is to say Seliph's growth rates and holy blood is not pregenerated, it is based on who his parents are. Deirdre is just hardcoded to be Sigurd's lover. So in theory you could change who their lovers are. Though I think Seliph might actually be attached to Deirdre rather than Sigurd, like all the other children. So...how about Seliph with Deirdre paired with all the men?

A strange request, but I would be open to figure that out! I might have to make some assumptions in order to make it work out, though (for instance, Seliph would probably inherit Major Naga first and foremost, so if Deirdre was paired with Lewyn, Seliph would be getting Minor Forseti Holy Blood).

~ ~ ~

Overall, I'd probably rank the mothers as:

Spoiler

1. Ayra - The fact that he gets Astra (and Nihil!), alongside an incredible Skill growth, would make Seliph incredible busted. He loses out on Magic and Resistance, but it's not like he would desperately need that anyway. Overall, probably the best offensive parent.
2. Lachesis - Another busted mom, she gives Seliph a 90% growth in Strength. 90%. Let that sink in. Anyway, he also gets Charm, which would work incredibly well in tandem with the Leadership stars that Seliph starts out with. Not only would Seliph hit hard, his allies would benefit immensely from having him around. A great offensive parent that also makes Seliph an excellent support unit.
3. Tailtiu - Wrath. Highest Speed and Skill (the latter of which is tied for the highest with Ayra) growths. Hurts his Strength and Defense a little, but they still remain pretty high. Very solid parent. Especially because of WRATH.
4. Edain - Highest HP growth (tied with Ayra and Brigid), highest Luck growth, solid growths everywhere else (except in Resistance, and Magic is mediocre). Seliph doesn't inherit any skills from her, though.
5. Brigid - Very similar to Edain; balanced growths across the board. Compared to Edain, slightly higher Strength and Skill, second highest Luck growth, but slightly lower Speed and Magic. Seliph also doesn't inherit any skills from her. I would say that Edain holds the edge over Brigid because of the insane Luck growth and slightly higher Speed and Magic growths.
6. Erinys - Lowest growths among the other options, no Holy Blood inheritance (besides Baldr, which comes from Sigurd), and only inherits Pursuit (which he already gets from Sigurd). He DOES get the highest Defense growth from her, though, and his other growths remain pretty balanced overall in the areas he appreciates. Definitely not a bad choice by any means, but fails to stand out.
7. Silvia - Lowest Speed and HP growth (but highest Magic and Resistance growth besides Deirdre!... that's not saying much, is it?), gets Miracle (which becomes redundant once he gets Tyrfing) and Adept. I'm confused about Dance since I don't think he would actually be able to inherit it and use it, but if he could, Silvia would probably be one of the top mothers.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

I thought Nihil was only effective against Critical hits in this game. Astra is not considered a critical, unless the skill's description is slightly off (could be).

The in game description (fan translated) says "Nullifies special attacks." Which isn't clear at all, but all the info online says it nullifies critical hits, offensive skills and effective damage (thus rendering Seliph's dismount feature useless against the like one enemy in the game who has a horseslayer). Of course in this game effective damage is an auto crit. I can only assume sword skills are included too, not like there's a whole lot of ways you can test it as Arya and Holyn are like the only enemies in the game that has a proc skill, but I've never heard of anyone cheesing Julius with Luna and it would make sense from a design standpoint to give him protection from such things. What it doesn't do, which would be really useful, is negate Big Shield.

[Darrman]

On 3/3/2021 at 12:22 AM, indigoasis said:

Silvia

HP - 140%  STR - 55%  MAG - 25%  SKL - 55%  SPD - 35%  LCK - 60%  DEF - 45%  RES - 35%

Total Growths: 450%

Skills: Pursuit, Adept, Dance(?), Miracle

Holy Blood: Major Baldr, Minor Bragi

He wouldn't get Dance, it's a class skill, which isn't passed down. Now if he turned into a dancer, that would be another story...

[AnonymousSpeed]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

What it doesn't do, which would be really useful, is negate Big Shield.

Would that be the one change you'd make in a Genealogy remake?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Would that be the one change you'd make in a Genealogy remake?

Hmm. Not sure. It'd be useful, but it would also kind of turn Seliph into a dedicated boss killer for reliability, and Seliph already kind of does too much in Gen II Imo.

[AnonymousSpeed]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Hmm. Not sure. It'd be useful, but it would also kind of turn Seliph into a dedicated boss killer for reliability, and Seliph already kind of does too much in Gen II Imo.

Maybe, but think about it.

Top Tier Alec.

C'mon.

ALEC.

Put a Nihil Ring in a shop or something, badabing badaboom, s'all good my man.

[indigoasis]

15 hours ago, Darrman said:

He wouldn't get Dance, it's a class skill, which isn't passed down. Now if he turned into a dancer, that would be another story...

Thank you for the clarification! I'll go ahead and edit the OP.

[Dandy Druid]

21 hours ago, Jotari said:

The in game description (fan translated) says "Nullifies special attacks." Which isn't clear at all, but all the info online says it nullifies critical hits, offensive skills and effective damage (thus rendering Seliph's dismount feature useless against the like one enemy in the game who has a horseslayer). Of course in this game effective damage is an auto crit. I can only assume sword skills are included too, not like there's a whole lot of ways you can test it as Arya and Holyn are like the only enemies in the game that has a proc skill, but I've never heard of anyone cheesing Julius with Luna and it would make sense from a design standpoint to give him protection from such things. What it doesn't do, which would be really useful, is negate Big Shield.

Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense why I usually don't see people put Shannan against Julius. Just Seliph, Julia, and sometimes Ares.

But Astra will be useful for 99% of enemies, just not the main one lol

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

ASTRA SELIPH

ASTRA SELIPH

...Ahem.

On the flip side, it's interesting to think of how Sigurd would do as a father to not Seliph.

The sword twins already have A-Swords and Pursuit, so he wouldn't give them much. On Seliph's side, though, he keeps Nihil, and now gets to rock Astra.

Lester and Lana get Pursuit and growths from minor Baldur, but little else. Seliph gets... not bad growths? IDK.

For Dermott and Nanna, this would be one of their "Pursuit pairings". Not bad. And Seliph may appreciate the Charisma.

Faval just gets the Holy Blood, but Patty gets Pursuit, and B(rave) Swords, from Day One. This might actually be the best version of Patty, in terms of combat ability. Good pairing for them. Seliph isn't getting much, though.

Thunder kids get minor holy blood, that also manifests as A Swords after promotion. Doesn't really matter, but the Pursuit is nice. Possibly their best non-magical papa. And Seliph enjoys Wrath, and his highest Speed.

Ced just gets the blood, but Fee now gets A Swords, along with the blood boost. That said, the Pursuit is redundant. Seliph gets very little, too. Not a fan.

Finally, Corpul and Lene get the holy blood boost, which for Lene, also means B(rave) Swords. Pursuit is also great for their combat. Kind of a waste, but definitely workable. Miracle on Seliph could be cool, admittedly. 

Considering all potential kids, I would rank Sigurd's wives:

Erinys < Edain < Brigid < Dierdre < Ayra < Sylvia < Laquesis < Tiltyu