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Ottservia

Why are people so obsessed with Realism and Believability?

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8 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s not what I’m saying though. Like again if he doesn’t enjoy the story for that reason then I take no issue with it. Like there’s no wrong reason to like or dislike something. Again that’s just how personal preference works. It’s when he tries to frame it as a legitimate criticism that kind of bothers me because it’s not a legitimate narrative flaw as it is purely a matter of personal preference. It’s like people criticizing Oda’s artstyle for being too goofy. That’s not an actual flaw. That’s just personal preference. Now if you were phrase that in a way that Oda’s artstyle somehow makes One Piece worse then I take issue with it.

Except it IS a legitimate criticism.  Here's the crux of it:

Quote

No one's expecting you to care, but that doesn't stop it being valid criticism. People are obviously going to care about such things to different degrees. People who haven't played the first three games in the series literally wouldn't be capable of noticing it at all.

If you're familiar with something that is a reference to something else, then you'd expect the derivative work to be related to the original in more than a superficial way.  Kind of like how if you saw something that was directly related to Naruto, you'd raise an eyebrow if the entire cast fought with machine guns, with no mention of ninjitsu anywhere.

So once again - what you think is "legitimate" isn't grounds for you to start an argument, because you aren't the arbiter of that.  Because again I'll ask you: Is this the hill you want to die on?

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3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If you're familiar with something that is a reference to something else, then you'd expect the derivative work to be related to the original in more than a superficial way.  Kind of like how if you saw something that was directly related to Naruto, you'd raise an eyebrow if the entire cast fought with machine guns, with no mention of ninjitsu anywhere.

You see the funny part about this is is that this actually is a thing in Boruto where one villain actually does utilize a machine gun instead of ninjutsu. It’s actually pretty good because it’s an extension of the idea of shinobi being tools because the villain was once a shinobi and is really old so he’s still kind of stuck in that mentality that Ninja are tools and not people which is reflected in how his body is mostly mechanical now. His use of the machine gun(which is a tool) is contradictory to his own ideals as well. I could go on but you get my point. Again I totally get the idea that it’s jarring but again that’s personal preference because there’s actual ideas being explored with it which are an exention of the ideas and themes found in the original story. To say it’s a legitimate criticism because it’s “not Naruto” is just kind of dumb because it is still the same world and themes just being explored in a different context. If you find it jarring that is totally fair. I find it jarring too but I’m willing to set aside those feelings in favor of analyzing the story fairly on its own terms. It’s another reason I’m personally not as hard on the death note live action movie as most people are. Cause it shares the same skeleton with the original series but this one is an adaptation. It may not be the exact same thing and some changes are bit jarring to say the least but again I’m willing to put aside those feelings in favor of giving this movie a fair shake.

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1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

You see the funny part about this is is that this actually is a thing in Boruto where one villain actually does utilize a machine gun instead of ninjutsu. It’s actually pretty good because it’s an extension of the idea of shinobi being tools because the villain was once a shinobi and is really old so he’s still kind of stuck in that mentality that Ninja are tools and not people which is reflected in how his body is mostly mechanical now. His use of the machine gun(which is a tool) is contradictory to his own ideals as well. I could go on but you get my point. Again I totally get the idea that it’s jarring but again that’s personal preference because there’s actual ideas being explored with it which are an exention of the ideas and themes found in the original story. To say it’s a legitimate criticism because it’s “not Naruto” is just kind of dumb because it is still the same world and themes just being explored in a different context. If you find it jarring that is totally fair. I find it jarring too but I’m willing to set aside those feelings in favor of analyzing the story fairly on its own terms. It’s another reason I’m personally not as hard on the death note live action movie as most people are. Cause it shares the same skeleton with the original series but this one is an adaptation. It may not be the exact same thing and some changes are bit jarring to say the least but again I’m willing to put aside those feelings in favor of giving this movie a fair shake.

. . .it's like you read my words and interpreted it completely differently.  Go back and read it again, because you completely missed the point.

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3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

. . .it's like you read my words and interpreted it completely differently.  Go back and read it again, because you completely missed the point.

I mean like here’s the deal. I’m no academic authority just a guy who is over obsessive about fiction. I think the disconnect here comes from how we view the word criticism. I don’t think complaints on personal preference is a criticism. Cause the way I view it if you’re gonna make a criticism then you should be as objective as possible. Over inflating minor issues like small world building inconsistencies isn’t so much trying to be objective as it is just a matter of personal preference. If you don’t like it fine. I’m not gonna try to tell you otherwise. What I am saying though is that personal preference isn’t a legitimate criticism because personal taste does not dictate whether or not something is objectively good or bad. Just because you don’t like something that doesn’t make it bad. That is essentially what I’m trying to say here. The story is not worse because it does not appeal to your personal set of standards or tastes. If you wanna complain about all the stuff you don’t like fine but that’s not objective. That’s not constructive criticism because you’re applying rules to a story that never intended on following those rules. It’s the fact that it’s being framed as constructive and objective critique cause it’s not objective criticism. It’s personal preference

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11 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean like here’s the deal. I’m no academic authority just a guy who is over obsessive about fiction. I think the disconnect here comes from how we view the word criticism. I don’t think complaints on personal preference is a criticism. Cause the way I view it if you’re gonna make a criticism then you should be as objective as possible. Over inflating minor issues like small world building inconsistencies isn’t so much trying to be objective as it is just a matter of personal preference. If you don’t like it fine. I’m not gonna try to tell you otherwise. What I am saying though is that personal preference isn’t a legitimate criticism because personal taste does not dictate whether or not something is objectively good or bad. Just because you don’t like something that doesn’t make it bad. That is essentially what I’m trying to say here. The story is not worse because it does not appeal to your personal set of standards or tastes. If you wanna complain about all the stuff you don’t like fine but that’s not objective. That’s not constructive criticism because you’re applying rules to a story that never intended on following those rules. It’s the fact that it’s being framed as constructive and objective critique cause it’s not objective criticism. It’s personal preference

Yeah, might want to let go of that obsession, it's doing more harm than good at this point.  Being passionate is one thing, but when you start getting into multiple arguments, it's time to step back and evaluate yourself objectively.

Part of this deals with expectation - for example, if I hear another Dance Dance Revolution game is on the way, I fully expect something involving fast music and floor panels.  If it's Fire Emblem, it'll either have characters I'm familiar with or be some sort of SRPG.  And so on.  When something bills itself as one thing (say, the future of a given canon) and pulls out something different, then criticism is on-point.  It's minor TO YOU (and me), but I can understand why it would be a sticking point to someone else.  That's why I think @Jotari has a point.

While it isn't exactly constructive criticism, it is a point against Awakening to those that care about such things.

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14 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Part of this deals with expectation - for example, if I hear another Dance Dance Revolution game is on the way, I fully expect something involving fast music and floor panels.  If it's Fire Emblem, it'll either have characters I'm familiar with or be some sort of SRPG.  And so on.  When something bills itself as one thing (say, the future of a given canon) and pulls out something different, then criticism is on-point.  It's minor TO YOU (and me), but I can understand why it would be a sticking point to someone else.  That's why I think @Jotari has a point.

While it isn't exactly constructive criticism, it is a point against Awakening to those that care about such things.

Yeah I’m not denying this . It’s just personally I think he’s making it out to be a bigger problem than it actually is. I’m not saying it’s an invalid reason for someone to dislike awakening. What I am saying though is that it’s an invalid reason to say stuff like “the writers didn’t care” or “awakening is objectively bad”. 

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9 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah I’m not denying this . It’s just personally I think he’s making it out to be a bigger problem than it actually is. I’m not saying it’s an invalid reason for someone to dislike awakening. What I am saying though is that it’s an invalid reason to say stuff like “the writers didn’t care” or “awakening is objectively bad”. 

Someone's "eh" is another person's "OH NO"!  For a VERY personal example, I wound up in the hospital on Monday.  Can't say I'm fine now, but I think I'll live.  To the vast majority of the world who has no idea that I exist, it's trivial.  To me, it's something I never want to go through again.  Are either of those perspectives wrong?  Nope.

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8 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Someone's "eh" is another person's "OH NO"!  For a VERY personal example, I wound up in the hospital on Monday.  Can't say I'm fine now, but I think I'll live.  To the vast majority of the world who has no idea that I exist, it's trivial.  To me, it's something I never want to go through again.  Are either of those perspectives wrong?  Nope.

I’m not saying the perspective is wrong just not objective in that sense. Again I bring up the Naruto is about hard work thing. To criticize Naruto for contradicting a hard work vs natural talent theme is not a criticism because Naruto was never about that to begin with. It doesn’t matter what your perspective is on it that’s just wrong. Or like people saying Rock Lee should’ve the main character of Naruto. Like no that just shows a blatent misunderstanding of the story’s ideas. Again, it’s okay to not like One piece for its more goofy artsyle. That’s a perfectly valid perspective but is one piece objectively bad because of it? No it isn’t. Or when people criticize the Naruto vs pain animation. Some like it the way it is. Others would prefer a more grounded and less goofy style to it. Both perspectives are perfectly valid but to say the animation of that fight is bad is straight up wrong and ignorant to how animation works. 

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4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You see that’s the difference between you and me. I don’t think minor issues like this are that big a deal. Even if something like this did bother me I would still be making the same arguments. Objectively speaking in the overall grand scheme of the narrative this is a relatively minor issue. It isn’t like Alm being revealed as royal which throws any meaning the conflict he had with Berkut out the window the minute it’s revealed(honestly Berkut vs Alm is basically just a worse version of Naruto vs Neji except in this instance the themes are actually being contradicted). It’s just a minor world building inconsistency and you can find those in any story if you look hard enough even the most well thought out worlds have them(Mr. 3 not sinking in alabasta when he’s a devil fruit user comes to mind). Like I’m not saying it shouldn’t bother. I just don’t think it’s that big of an objective criticism. Because it really isn’t. 

You're the one really making mountains out of mole hills here. Has anyone ever referred to the inconsistencies with other games as the singular reason Awakening is bad? I think not. It's something there, it's some that people don't like, but no one is talking about it like the game would have been perfect without it. The thing about Awakening, which is probably going to be the problem with a lot of works people look down on, is that there's a tonne of mole hills. So taking just one aspect and saying "it doesn't matter" and this people who have issue with it have no merit in their argument is basically a straw man.

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

So I'm going to answer this seriously, because it wasn't clever.

The entire point of the Dragon Veins is consistency, which is mostly because it's a gameplay mechanic with a side of story.  Thus, the developers are a lot less likely to break Dragon Veins because (insert stupid reason here).  The "inconsistency" is confined to a single DLC, which is then (shoddily) explained by the story.  Since the trio is treated as royalty for said asspull reason, they're allowed to use the Dragon Veins.  It's also meant to justify the existence of the DLC item (though why anyone thought said item was a good idea is anyone's guess).  Not exactly a good reason, but it's an attempt at internal consistency.

Hey.

 

I know. I did mention how it wasn't a plot hole.

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're the one really making mountains out of mole hills here. Has anyone ever referred to the inconsistencies with other games as the singular reason Awakening is bad? I think not. It's something there, it's some that people don't like, but no one is talking about it like the game would have been perfect without it. The thing about Awakening, which is probably going to be the problem with a lot of works people look down on, is that there's a tonne of mole hills. So taking just one aspect and saying "it doesn't matter" and this people who have issue with it have no merit in their argument is basically a straw man.

Okay I know you aren’t saying awakening is objectively bad because of this. But the other guy was and so was alastor. I think you’re argument is completely fair but to say that sort of thing takes away from awakening’s themes is just something I don’t think is correct.

Edited by Ottservia

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9 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I’m not saying the perspective is wrong just not objective in that sense. Again I bring up the Naruto is about hard work thing. To criticize Naruto for contradicting a hard work vs natural talent theme is not a criticism because Naruto was never about that to begin with. It doesn’t matter what your perspective is on it that’s just wrong. Or like people saying Rock Lee should’ve the main character of Naruto. Like no that just shows a blatent misunderstanding of the story’s ideas. Again, it’s okay to not like One piece for its more goofy artsyle. That’s a perfectly valid perspective but is one piece objectively bad because of it? No it isn’t. Or when people criticize the Naruto vs pain animation. Some like it the way it is. Others would prefer a more grounded and less goofy style to it. Both perspectives are perfectly valid but to say the animation of that fight is bad is straight up wrong and ignorant to how animation works. 

If it's enough to break immersion/detract from enjoyment, that's valid criticism in my books.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I know. I did mention how it wasn't a plot hole.

Which means it wasn't a very clever comment.  I don't mind banter, but try not to point things out just for the sake of pointing them out.

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3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Okay I know you aren’t saying awakening is objectively bad because of this. But the other guy was and so was alastor. I think you’re argument is completely fair but to say that sort of thing takes away from awakening’s themes is just something I don’t think is correct.

But again, no one will ever cite this as the singular reason. It's one issue among dozens that people might have with Awakening.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

But again, no one will ever cite this as the singular reason. It's one issue among dozens that people might have with Awakening.

Yeah but that’s not my point. My point is more so that those problems more complaints on personal preference rather than constructive criticism

 

4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If it's enough to break immersion/detract from enjoyment, that's valid criticism in my books.

I would disagree because suspension of disbelief is too subjective to really base any real discussion around.

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4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I would disagree because suspension of disbelief is too subjective to really base any real discussion around.

Can you agree that it might be that way for someone else?  I don't throw a fit over things like the laws of physic being broken in anime, but a physicist might feel differently.

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Just now, eclipse said:

Can you agree that it might be that way for someone else?  I don't throw a fit over things like the laws of physic being broken in anime, but a physicist might feel differently.

Yeah I can. That doesn’t mean it’s valid criticism though. Like I said with Naruto vs Pain. Some people feel that the animation is fine the way it is. Others don’t like it for how overly exaggerated it is and it takes them out of the experience. Both viewpoints are perfectly valid to have. Personally, I land somewhere in the middle but that’s neither here nor there. What isn’t valid is to say that the animation is of poor quality because this is objectively some of the best animation the industry has to offer. With its amazing choreography and use of squash and stretch to convey a sense of speed and power.

 

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10 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah but that’s not my point. My point is more so that those problems more complaints on personal preference rather than constructive criticism

 

I would disagree because suspension of disbelief is too subjective to really base any real discussion around.

An inconsistency such as that is the closest thing you can get to an objective criticism of something. As unlike thematic or character analysis it can actually be demonstrably be proven. It's the worth of such criticism that is subjective. And even if there was some hypothetical person who is so into Archanea and Valentia lore that this was the one massive sticking point for them about Awakening as a game, so what? That's their value set that either let's or prevents engagement with the work in question. You made this thread asking why and that's the answer. People have different things of value when it comes to works of fiction. And you thinking something does not matter doe not invalidate the feelings of someone who does. Their feelings are real, that is their reaction, they're not lying about how the story makes them feel (well probably, some probably are to be part of a crowd).

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3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

An inconsistency such as that is the closest thing you can get to an objective criticism of something. As unlike thematic or character analysis it can actually be demonstrably be proven. It's the worth of such criticism that is subjective. And even if there was some hypothetical person who is so into Archanea and Valentia lore that this was the one massive sticking point for them about Awakening as a game, so what? That's their value set that either let's or prevents engagement with the work in question. You made this thread asking why and that's the answer. People have different things of value when it comes to works of fiction. And you thinking something does not matter doe not invalidate the feelings of someone who does. Their feelings are real, that is their reaction, they're not lying about how the story makes them feel (well probably, some probably are to be part of a crowd).

And again I’m not denying any of this but here’s the thing. I’m about to make a bad faith argument but bear with me here. You could say someone “feels” Naruto was a story about hard work vs talent and that it contradicts that theme. I don’t care how you feel that is just wrong and incorrect. I’m not saying that this sort of stuff shouldn’t matter to you personally. Cause if it bothers you then it bothers you. Who am I to say otherwise? That’s not my point. My point is that just because it personally bothers you that doesn’t make it an objective criticism. Yeah people value different things in stories. People have personal taste. My problem is when people complain about something as an objective narrative flaw when it is only a matter of personal taste and nothing more

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11 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah I can. That doesn’t mean it’s valid criticism though.

And stop.  That's a contradiction.  Someone who is well-versed in physics will know way more than you or me.  I think the reason why this is bugging me is because several forms of media tend to distort things like women's bodies for the sake of their viewers, and that is very much valid criticism.

14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

What isn’t valid is to say that the animation is of poor quality because this is objectively some of the best animation the industry has to offer. With its amazing choreography and use of squash and stretch to convey a sense of speed and power.

Are you someone who has inside knowledge of what makes a good animation?  Assuming I remember, I'll ask a friend of mine, someone who definitely knows more about this than you.

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17 minutes ago, eclipse said:

And stop.  That's a contradiction.  Someone who is well-versed in physics will know way more than you or me.  I think the reason why this is bugging me is because several forms of media tend to distort things like women's bodies for the sake of their viewers, and that is very much valid criticism.

 

It’s not a contradiction. Case and point stuff like Senran Kagura where the entire point is the fanservice. The primary reason you play those games is for the anime titties. So I don’t think it’s valid to criticize Senran Kagura for that when that is 90% of the reason people play the game to begin with. The fanservice is the selling point. It’s like criticizing dark souls for its difficulty.

It’s perfectly valud to not like Senran Kagura for that reason but to criticize it the fanservice as an actual flaw of the game when it’s the entire selling point is honestly wrong.

Edited by Ottservia

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22 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're the one really making mountains out of mole hills here. Has anyone ever referred to the inconsistencies with other games as the singular reason Awakening is bad? I think not. It's something there, it's some that people don't like, but no one is talking about it like the game would have been perfect without it. The thing about Awakening, which is probably going to be the problem with a lot of works people look down on, is that there's a tonne of mole hills. So taking just one aspect and saying "it doesn't matter" and this people who have issue with it have no merit in their argument is basically a straw man.

Thanks for saying what was on my mind. 

I've (successfully up to now, I think?) avoided replying to these kinds of threads for various reasons, chief among them the enormous amount of hair-splitting and delving into minutiae about what makes a game dislikable on objective terms. I'd like to establish that the proposition is impossible to achieve, because gamers are free to like/dislike games/concepts/plots/whatever on whichever terms they see fit. A trivial thing for one is a dealbreaker for another, and that is fine. Unless you're out to convince someone to see merits where they're seeing lemons, that's when disappointment comes.

17 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If it's enough to break immersion/detract from enjoyment, that's valid criticism in my books.

I adopt this credo for any game/anime/book I come across. And I save neurons doing so.

12 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I would disagree because suspension of disbelief is too subjective to really base any real discussion around.

*italics mine*

If by real discussion you mean looking for imaginary objective criticisms, then let's can all pretense and hop on our individual flights of fancy.

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19 minutes ago, Ottservia said:
 

It’s not a contradiction. Case and point stuff like Senran Kagura where the entire point is the fanservice. The primary reason you play those games is for the anime titties. So I don’t think it’s valid to criticize Senran Kagura for that when that is 90% of the reason people play the game to begin with. The fanservice is the selling point. It’s like criticizing dark souls for its difficulty.

It’s perfectly valud to not like Senran Kagura for that reason but to criticize it the fanservice as an actual flaw of the game when it’s the entire selling point is honestly wrong.

My thoughts on the implications of this is way outside of the scope of the topic, so I'm gonna keep that to myself.

Regardless, I'm going to criticize the entire genre that panders to those who have unrealistic expectations out of women's bodies/attitudes/a lot of other things.  If this offends you, please take the time to step back and ask why, instead of trying to shut it down (much like how you're attempting to shut down routes of criticism you don't like).  Actually, stepping back and asking why it's necessary to make so many replies to something like this might not be a bad idea anyway.

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3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

My thoughts on the implications of this is way outside of the scope of the topic, so I'm gonna keep that to myself.

Regardless, I'm going to criticize the entire genre that panders to those who have unrealistic expectations out of women's bodies/attitudes/a lot of other things.  If this offends you, please take the time to step back and ask why, instead of trying to shut it down (much like how you're attempting to shut down routes of criticism you don't like).  Actually, stepping back and asking why it's necessary to make so many replies to something like this might not be a bad idea anyway.

Again do you think it’s valid to criticize dark souls for being too hard? Personally, I don’t think so because that’s the entire selling point. Dark souls is supposed to be difficult. If it wasn’t difficult then it wouldn’t be dark souls. In that way it’s not a valid critique. Cause it’s trying to be a bleak and unforgiving experience. The fact that it is that is not a flaw. If you don’t like dark souls for its difficulty that’s fine but dark souls isn’t bad because of it. It’s trying to be difficult. That’s the entire point. Making the game easier would only hinder what it’s trying to do as a video game and work of art. And this is what I’m trying to say. There is a difference between personal preference and valid criticism.

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Okay, this has the possibility to sound incredibly reductionist, but you did force the hand that is about to be dealt.

You're saying that it's not valid to criticize fanservice-y anime/manga because the kinds of thrills they give, however cheap, are viewed as de rigueur for the genre they represent? Do you realize the slope you're casually inviting everyone and his mother to bobsled on, luge in tow, with reckless fuck abandon, is inherently screwed up nine ways to Sunday?

 

Edited by Karimlan

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3 minutes ago, Karimlan said:

Okay, this has the possibility to sound incredibly reductionist, but you did force the hand that is about to be dealt.

You're saying that it's not valid to criticize fanservice-y anime because the kinds of thrills they give, however cheap, are viewed as de rigueur for the genre they represent? Do you realize the slope you're casually inviting everyone and his mother to bobsled on, luge in tow, with reckless fuck abandon, is inherently screwed up nine ways to Sunday?

 

No, I’m just saying it’s not valid to criticize something for what is literally the point. Again would you criticize dark souls for being too hard? No of course you wouldn’t. It’s dark souls. It’s supposed to be hard. My point is not all criticism is valid criticism.

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2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

No, I’m just saying it’s not valid to criticize something for what is literally the point. Again would you criticize dark souls for being too hard? No of course you wouldn’t. It’s dark souls. It’s supposed to be hard. My point is not all criticism is valid criticism.

Oh no, it is.  And you are not the person to say that it is or isn't.  Understand?

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