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So what Azura's father just really bad at fighting or something?


Jotari
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So in Fates Anankos is utilizing spirits or zombies or...well something of the dead Vallite characters as his minions. Along with Sumeragi too. So, yeah, I've never really thought about it before, but where's Azura's father, the King of Valla? All three of the major characters he does use all died in various different ways at various different times and he had no problem scooping up their souls and turning them into his minions. Ditto for Heirs of Fates where the entire first gen was killed and captured at some, except Azura. Why not the unseen unnamed King of Valla too? The only thing I can think of is that he was killed in Valla while everyone else was killed outside of it? But then I assume the regular Vallite minions are in a similar situation to Sumeragi and Arete and the rest and they all probably died in Valla. Unless none of them are actually Vallite people and are all just the souls of people who died in the war. Another thought is that maybe being Vallite royalty helped protect him, like how Azura was protected in Heirs of Fates (well protects for want of a better word, she certainly isn't healthy in heirs of Fates, though it's been so long since I played it I can't exactly remember why), but apparently Arete and Mikoto are Vallite royalty too, as they have the symbol of them saying they can use dragon veins (so yeah, Azura's parents are related somehow, in case you missed that bit of incest in Fates). Were Arete, Mikoto and Sumeragi only picked up to serve as an emotional attack on the heroes, and the king was left out of it because Azura can't remember who he is? Well that's almost certainly the reason why narratively, but inuniverse it doesn't really work given we know he's been using Sumeragi and Arete to attack people who don't know them at all given they appear in Hidden Truths. So yeah, I can't think of any decent reason why we didn't see Azura's father working for Anankos, other than he'd just be a shit minion because he was in a wheelchair or something. Though maybe there's something I'm forgetting.

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50 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I think it's because his death was the trigger to his complete madness, so Anankos doesn't want to see him. He doesn't want to see the person that he murdered when the person only tried to reach out to him. 

I think you're thinking of the first King of Valla, the one that looks like Shigure. That's the one who had a special relationship with Anankos. Azura's father is as much a stranger to him as she is iirc.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I think you're thinking of the first King of Valla, the one that looks like Shigure. That's the one who had a special relationship with Anankos. Azura's father is as much a stranger to him as she is iirc.

No, because Anankos only went insane after killing Azura's father. 

Quote

Anankos: You are all kind souls. In truth, there were people that said those very things to the dragon. The king and his family... They alone continued to believe in the dragon. They visited him in his isolation countless times and tried to salvage his mind. They tried explaining things to the people as well, but it was no use. The dragon simply wasn't strong enough to believe in humans anymore. In a moment of weakness and madness, he attacked his one true friend.

Inigo: No...

Anankos: Killing his friend, the king, was the last straw. Madness overcame him. Now alone in his insanity, he began to destroy the kingdom he once loved. But before this, in a final moment of clarity and desperation, he tore out his soul. That soul took on the form of a human and began to think and act on its own. That soul...stands before you now.

Valla was only brought to ruin upon Azura;s generation. 

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, because Anankos only went insane after killing Azura's father. 

Valla was only brought to ruin upon Azura;s generation. 

Ah so Anankos was friends with multiple generations of the Vallite royal family. I was remembering him going crazy around the time of the first one, which isn't entirely inaccurate either as it was a gradual process. Still you'd expect if he was on such good terms with Azura's father he'd similarly be on good terms with Arete.

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Ah so Anankos was friends with multiple generations of the Vallite royal family. I was remembering him going crazy around the time of the first one, which isn't entirely inaccurate either as it was a gradual process. Still you'd expect if he was on such good terms with Azura's father he'd similarly be on good terms with Arete.

You could consider that killing Azura's father is something that Anankos hates himself. His madness is the belief that humans are evil creatures. Killing Azura's father, the man that reached out to him, is something that Anankos would rather pretend didn't happen, because it clashes with his belief that humans are evil. 

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I agree with everyone pointing out that Anankos killing Azura's father was the thing that brought about his final descent into madness and is something he'd want to avoid remembering, especially since, in his mad rants, he refers to himself as "the betrayed king", suggesting that his madness had led to false, self-serving memories. 

Adding to that, there might also be a simple practical reason: depending on how exactly Anankos killed him, there might've been nothing left to reanimate. With Garon, Mikoto, Sumeragi, etc., he had complete corpses to work with, and Arete died from the curse he himself created, so her body that vanished was probably brought before him by the curse or something like that. With Azura's father, however, he probably ate him, destroyed him with his dragon breath, or tore him to literal shreds with his claws. So, there'd be nothing left except dragon poop, charred bones, or tiny irreparable pieces. 

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10 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I agree with everyone pointing out that Anankos killing Azura's father was the thing that brought about his final descent into madness and is something he'd want to avoid remembering, especially since, in his mad rants, he refers to himself as "the betrayed king", suggesting that his madness had led to false, self-serving memories. 

Would have been neat if someone pointed it out to Anankos and he just kept denying it and saying that he was the one that was betrayed first, and delude himself into saying that he did nothing wrong. 

10 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Adding to that, there might also be a simple practical reason: depending on how exactly Anankos killed him, there might've been nothing left to reanimate. With Garon, Mikoto, Sumeragi, etc., he had complete corpses to work with, and Arete died from the curse he himself created, so her body that vanished was probably brought before him by the curse or something like that. With Azura's father, however, he probably ate him, destroyed him with his dragon breath, or tore him to literal shreds with his claws. So, there'd be nothing left except dragon poop, charred bones, or tiny irreparable pieces. 

Though in Heirs of Fate, he had Sumeragi, Arete, and Mikoto back. Unless they are other world versions.

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Would have been neat if someone pointed it out to Anankos and he just kept denying it and saying that he was the one that was betrayed first, and delude himself into saying that he did nothing wrong. 

Oh, don't get me wrong; I think we're all in agreement that Fates' writing and exposition is horrendous. 

 

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Though in Heirs of Fate, he had Sumeragi, Arete, and Mikoto back. Unless they are other world versions.

Uh... I'm sorry; I don't understand what you're saying. I haven't played Heirs of Fate, and I don't understand what you mean by "he had [them] back"; could please be a bit more clear?

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4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Uh... I'm sorry; I don't understand what you're saying. I haven't played Heirs of Fate, and I don't understand what you mean by "he had [them] back"; could please be a bit more clear?

You fight them in one of the Heirs of Fate chapters.

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6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

You could consider that killing Azura's father is something that Anankos hates himself. His madness is the belief that humans are evil creatures. Killing Azura's father, the man that reached out to him, is something that Anankos would rather pretend didn't happen, because it clashes with his belief that humans are evil. 

Still, Arete and Mikoto are part of the royal family too, so it seems strange they wouldn't have reached out to him too. Unless Azura's father was just quite a bit older than her mother so Anankos has known him far longer.

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Would have been neat if someone pointed it out to Anankos and he just kept denying it and saying that he was the one that was betrayed first, and delude himself into saying that he did nothing wrong. 

Though in Heirs of Fate, he had Sumeragi, Arete, and Mikoto back. Unless they are other world versions.

Not sure where the failed Revalation timeline is coming from. I thought Heirs of Fates was the future Conquest/Birthright timelines merging. Which would have no issue on this point as Sumeragi and Arete etc are never rekilled in Birthright or Conquest.

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8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Still, Arete and Mikoto are part of the royal family too, so it seems strange they wouldn't have reached out to him too. Unless Azura's father was just quite a bit older than her mother so Anankos has known him far longer.

I mean, Anankos called him his last true friend. So it's likely that the rest of the members weren't as close. 

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Not sure where the failed Revalation timeline is coming from. I thought Heirs of Fates was the future Conquest/Birthright timelines merging. Which would have no issue on this point as Sumeragi and Arete etc are never rekilled in Birthright or Conquest.

Nope, Shigure gives a whole lore dump about how the rest of the kids were each individually from a Birthright or Conquest route, while he came from a Revelations route where everyone came together to fight Anankos, but the Omega Yato broke and Anankos won, with Azura only being able to save Shigure to her dying breath using her song. After that, Anankos began an invasion of the other worlds, attacking the worlds of each of the kids.

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5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, Anankos called him his last true friend. So it's likely that the rest of the members weren't as close. 

Nope, Shigure gives a whole lore dump about how the rest of the kids were each individually from a Birthright or Conquest route, while he came from a Revelations route where everyone came together to fight Anankos, but the Omega Yato broke and Anankos won, with Azura only being able to save Shigure to her dying breath using her song. After that, Anankos began an invasion of the other worlds, attacking the worlds of each of the kids.

I'll take your word for it (I do remember Shigure being from somewhere else alright), but even with that in mind he easily could have taken his minions from the Birthright or Conquest timelines anyway, meaning there's no inconsistency about them being defeated twice.

Edited by Jotari
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22 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

@Jotari What did you think of the additional point I brought up (namely that we don't know how Anankos killed him, but it was likely in a way that there wasn't much of a body left)?

Well I was sort of inadvertently arguing in favour of it by pointing out how the other minions weren't defeated twice (even though you do fight Arete like three or four times). As far as it goes, it's a good enough explanation, but it's a bit improvable. Mikoto and Sumeragi's bodies probably in the highest working order either though.

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If you want to speculate, he likely was the the reason for Garon's death or at least that's what I like to think. Following the wiki it generally is unclear how Garon died and even though he skills likely come from Anankos we can assume that at least a good portion of his physical abilities and his talent for wielding axes and magic was honed before his death. The difference being that while Sumeragi has basically become a full Vallite troop (meaning he is more or less a physical manisfestation of the man's spirit.) Garon however is basically a corpse being manipulated by Anankos from Valla, (Also why he becomes slime upon sitting on the throne.) There is no way of knowing exactly how it happened, but my personal idea is that Garon encountered the old Vallite King and the two fought with Garon winning but dying shortly after. 

Note: Looked at other responses, it could be that the Vallite curse created a stronger connection to Anankos not to mention it could have simply been a matter of moving power. For example Anankos could've kept Sumeragi, Mikoto and Arete for the final battle but instead let's them pass on, this is likely not because Corrin slayed them but actually just Anankos releasing his grip as to gain power, similar to how he consumes Garon to get back power.

Edited by Htmcc
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2 hours ago, Htmcc said:

If you want to speculate, he likely was the the reason for Garon's death or at least that's what I like to think. Following the wiki it generally is unclear how Garon died and even though he skills likely come from Anankos we can assume that at least a good portion of his physical abilities and his talent for wielding axes and magic was honed before his death. The difference being that while Sumeragi has basically become a full Vallite troop (meaning he is more or less a physical manisfestation of the man's spirit.) Garon however is basically a corpse being manipulated by Anankos from Valla, (Also why he becomes slime upon sitting on the throne.) There is no way of knowing exactly how it happened, but my personal idea is that Garon encountered the old Vallite King and the two fought with Garon winning but dying shortly after. 

Note: Looked at other responses, it could be that the Vallite curse created a stronger connection to Anankos not to mention it could have simply been a matter of moving power. For example Anankos could've kept Sumeragi, Mikoto and Arete for the final battle but instead let's them pass on, this is likely not because Corrin slayed them but actually just Anankos releasing his grip as to gain power, similar to how he consumes Garon to get back power.

That does make me think, why was Garon even a slime when Anankos can perfectly control the souls of dead people? Was it just so he doesn't do that whole invisible purple blinking the whole time? Or are Sumeragi and crew slimes too and the same thing would have happened if they sat on the throne? Unlike them Garon doesn't get a "moment of clarity" when he dies wherein the controlled spirit gains their own mind just long enough to have a heartfelt goodbye.

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On 3/7/2021 at 11:32 AM, Jotari said:

That does make me think, why was Garon even a slime when Anankos can perfectly control the souls of dead people? Was it just so he doesn't do that whole invisible purple blinking the whole time? Cool weekend payday loan options here https://directloantransfer.com/weekend-payday-loans/ Or are Sumeragi and crew slimes too and the same thing would have happened if they sat on the throne? Unlike them Garon doesn't get a "moment of clarity" when he dies wherein the controlled spirit gains their own mind just long enough to have a heartfelt goodbye.

I always though of it as of some kind of a joke
He was a slime because he wanted to be the slime!

Edited by ssamsamm
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I was thinking since Garon is a physical body, Anankos probably put some magic into holding together the corpse of Garon as unlike Sumeragi and the others garon doesn't really revert to his original personality. I though the final form was his corpse literally rotting in place, you litterally can see his skull in the sludge.

Portrait_Serenes2.jpg

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