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[MagicCanonBalls]

Surprised to see Kris still in second.

For me it's Kris > Corrin = Robin = Byleth > Comic Kiran > Mark. I would have ranked Byleth higher if only their Enlightened One's outfit isn't so out of my taste. 

After FE12 I looked up other games in the series (this is pre-awakening time) and got disappointed to learn that only FE7 also has avatar system, then I get even more disappointed that Mark adds so little to the gameplay.

[Cosmic_Dragon]

On 3/7/2021 at 4:43 PM, That's So Raven said:

As for the tactician thing it doesn't really work with the amnesiac who knows nothing about the world, why would you put the fate of yourself and your army in the hands of such a person, its downright weird, a good example of a tactician would be Soren who is very well informed, knowledgeable and most important of all, pragmatic. The teacher angle also doesn't work when students spend more time teaching Byleth about the world, than they do them, plus same reasons I gave for tactician.

Thing is, IntSys clearly does that with the intention of keeping true to the concept of the avatar protagonist. The point of an avatar character is that they're essentially meant to be *you*, so since you know nothing about this fantasy world you're exploring, it's only natural that your character wouldn't either, so you get to learn about the world through their eyes, which in turn is supposed to help you "relate" to them (or something of the sort).

However, with the kind of backgrounds or overall situations they put their avatars into in their games, it just ends up heavily conflicting with the concept.

Like for example, Robin may be a good tactician, but the fact that they're supposed to be an amnesiac who doesn't know/remember anything about their environment makes it kind of odd that they'd be put in charge of commanding an entire army.

Corrin likewise is supposed to be a sheltered kid who grew up in confinement most of their life, and as such are supposed to be pretty naive and not very knowledgeable about life or the world, and alright, I can definitely believe that. Yet they can still somehow command an army and turn the tides of a war, even when they also make pretty dumb rookie-like mistakes throughout the story (which never gets pointed out by the other characters or Corrin themselves never get called out on, essentially ensuring that they won't learn from their mistakes).

And with Byleth, well you know, I can actually buy them being a military teacher/instructor; I mean, they used to be a mercenary, they most likely have seen many things throughout the years and know their way around a battlefield very well, and I can probably headcanon that they used to teach/mentor kids back in their village as part of their mercenary job or something. However, that's the thing, they were mercenaries who used to move around a lot so I can't believe they'd be so oblivious to many things about their land. Like for example, how do you have that kind of background, yet know absolutely nothing about the biggest religious organization of your land? That's like living in the U.S. your whole life without knowing what the Christian or the Catholic church is (and that's already weird for a normal person).

Sometimes it feels like IS doesn't really know whether they want their avatars to be experienced adult protagonists that actually know what they're doing and can actually take matters into their own hands (which are a rare breed in anime RPGs) or they just want them to be the typical JRPG-like protagonist who basically needs everything done for and explained to them (until like the final act of the game), so they try to strike this awkward middle ground between the two and it just... doesn't really work. Again, I understand the reasons they do this (or, at least I think I can, to an extent), but it still doesn't mean that it's something that I agree with.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Cosmic_Dragon

[Jotari]

On 3/13/2021 at 12:07 AM, Cosmic_Dragon said:

Thing is, IntSys clearly does that with the intention of keeping true to the concept of the avatar protagonist. The point of an avatar character is that they're essentially meant to be *you*, so since you know nothing about this fantasy world you're exploring, it's only natural that your character wouldn't either, so you get to learn about the world through their eyes, which in turn is supposed to help you "relate" to them (or something of the sort).

However, with the kind of backgrounds or overall situations they put their avatars into in their games, it just ends up heavily conflicting with the concept.

Like for example, Robin may be a good tactician, but the fact that they're supposed to be an amnesiac who doesn't know/remember anything about their environment makes it kind of odd that they'd be put in charge of commanding an entire army.

Corrin likewise is supposed to be a sheltered kid who grew up in confinement most of their life, and as such are supposed to be pretty naive and not very knowledgeable about life or the world, and alright, I can definitely believe that. Yet they can still somehow command an army and turn the tides of a war, even when they also make pretty dumb rookie-like mistakes throughout the story (which never gets pointed out by the other characters or Corrin themselves never get called out on, essentially ensuring that they won't learn from their mistakes).

And with Byleth, well you know, I can actually buy them being a military teacher/instructor; I mean, they used to be a mercenary, they most likely have seen many things throughout the years and know their way around a battlefield very well, and I can probably headcanon that they used to teach/mentor kids back in their village as part of their mercenary job or something. However, that's the thing, they were mercenaries who used to move around a lot so I can't believe they'd be so oblivious to many things about their land. Like for example, how do you have that kind of background, yet know absolutely nothing about the biggest religious organization of your land? That's like living in the U.S. your whole life without knowing what the Christian or the Catholic church is (and that's already weird for a normal person).

Sometimes it feels like IS doesn't really know whether they want their avatars to be experienced adult protagonists that actually know what they're doing and can actually take matters into their own hands (which are a rare breed in anime RPGs) or they just want them to be the typical JRPG-like protagonist who basically needs everything done for and explained to them (until like the final act of the game), so they try to strike this awkward middle ground between the two and it just... doesn't really work. Again, I understand the reasons they do this (or, at least I think I can, to an extent), but it still doesn't mean that it's something that I agree with.

Well in he whole Byleth not knowing anything about the church point, it's fairly safe to assume (if it's not already explicitly mentioned somewhere) that Jearlt kept Byleth away from the church as much as he could. Overall I hear what you're saying though (and now I kind of wish Byleth had grown up abroad to give some more distinct interest to them and to actually utilize the fact that this game has actual foreign nations), which is once again why from-a-small-village-and-works-as-a-bodyguard-Kris is the best avatar when it comes to actually being an avatar.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well in he whole Byleth not knowing anything about the church point, it's fairly safe to assume (if it's not already explicitly mentioned somewhere) that Jearlt kept Byleth away from the church as much as he could. Overall I hear what you're saying though (and now I kind of wish Byleth had grown up abroad to give some more distinct interest to them and to actually utilize the fact that this game has actual foreign nations), which is once again why from-a-small-village-and-works-as-a-bodyguard-Kris is the best avatar when it comes to actually being an avatar.

Byleth growing up abroad - say in Dagda, or Albinea - would make a lot more sense with the setup, too. Jeralt wants to hide from the Church, right? Well, he could change his name, flee to a different continent, and start a new life there. Or... he could travel Fódlan under the name the Church already knows him as, and capitalize off his association with the Knights of Seiros to gain renown as a Mercenary. Like, in the second scenario, he's basically relying on Rhea feeling too guilty to make him come back to work.

[Jotari]

36 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Byleth growing up abroad - say in Dagda, or Albinea - would make a lot more sense with the setup, too. Jeralt wants to hide from the Church, right? Well, he could change his name, flee to a different continent, and start a new life there. Or... he could travel Fódlan under the name the Church already knows him as, and capitalize off his association with the Knights of Seiros to gain renown as a Mercenary. Like, in the second scenario, he's basically relying on Rhea feeling too guilty to make him come back to work.

Making him live abroad would also necessitate some plot point that causes Jearlt to have to return to be caught up in the plot, unlike the actual game where it's basically just coincidence. I'm not sure what exactly it could be that prompts Jearlt to return from foreign country X, but anything would be useful, because let's face it, as a character Jearlt is kind of interesting but does absolutely shit all in the actual game. They really needed to toss him something of interesting to do that wasn't related to his mysterious backstory and then dying like every father who isn't Eliwood.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Making him live abroad would also necessitate some plot point that causes Jearlt to have to return to be caught up in the plot, unlike the actual game where it's basically just coincidence. I'm not sure what exactly it could be that prompts Jearlt to return from foreign country X, but anything would be useful, because let's face it, as a character Jearlt is kind of interesting but does absolutely shit all in the actual game. They really needed to toss him something of interesting to do that wasn't related to his mysterious backstory and then dying like every father who isn't Eliwood.

Alternatively, have the Church come to Jeralt. Suppose Alois is supervising the three Lords on a "field trip" to Albinea - at Rhea's suggestion. For extra security, they contract with that land's famous mercenary, Eisen... whom Alois immediately recognizes as Jeralt. Thus dragging Jeralt back to Fódlan, and the Church.

But yeah, Jeralt is basically a giant walking death flag. A shame they didn't let us use him as a Jagen, and/or give him some C/B supports.

[Cosmic_Dragon]

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well in he whole Byleth not knowing anything about the church point, it's fairly safe to assume (if it's not already explicitly mentioned somewhere) that Jearlt kept Byleth away from the church as much as he could. 

And truly, I can believe that. But to the point that Byleth wouldn't even know it's name? Or the fact that it's one of the biggest organizations in all of Fodlan? At least I think that's what the game implies based on the beginning, but then again, it could be just an implication, maybe Byleth did know at least that much about the Church, but the game still felt the need to explain it to him (and by extension, the player) because Avatar character.

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

(and now I kind of wish Byleth had grown up abroad to give some more distinct interest to them and to actually utilize the fact that this game has actual foreign nations)

Well, he definitely didn't grow up abroad, but who's to say he hasn't spent any time in other lands? I mean, he and his father were mercenaries, renowned ones at that given how they were apparently famous as the Blade Breaker and the Ashen Demon. I can't imagine they were never contracted by some foreigner from Almyra or Dagda to go help them out with something over there. And hell, given how little background we have on Byleth's past as a mercenary, I can easily headcanon that he and Jeralt did actually spend time in other lands.

Like for example, I can imagine Byleth being able to teach magic cause he and his father actually spent some time in Morfis, during which he was trained in the mystic arts by people they met there. Or I can also imagine that they actually spent a few years in Sreng. Sreng is supposed to be a land of warriors right? Byleth spending some time there could explain why he'd be able to teach his students about different types of weapons (even if his main weapon are swords), cause he trained/grew up there for a few years (and that could also be the reason why Byleth is so proficient in Brawling). It actually ties into another headcanon I have about the badge Byleth wears, but that's another thing.

[vanguard333]

I'd say it all depends on what we're talking about. All 4 avatars (I'm excluding Mark and Kiran for two reasons: they has no gameplay involvement and we never see them) have shared some major flaws: the biggest one being that they're built like something halfway between a fixed protagonist and a custom protagonist and having the worst of both as a result. Ultimately, it ends up being a case of pick-your-poison:

Kris is easily the most "custom" of the avatars, at least in terms of gameplay: no unique classes or unique weapons and they the most flexible base-stat & growth-rate modifier system. However, not only do they have the same problem as Robin & Corrin of you have no say in the things they say or do beyond the other characters (outside of stat-checks and putting on headgear), Kris quite literally steals moments from other characters and manages to be rather obstructive in general. Ultimately, in terms of gameplay, they're the closest thing I'd want to a custom protagonist as far as gameplay customization is concerned, but their character and plot needs a lot of work.

Robin's main advantage is that they're the least obtrusive of the four characters, to the point where it can be easy to forget that they even are supposed to be custom characters; instead, they come across more as just bland fixed characters. You customize their appearance and gameplay at the start, and then you can just forget that they even are an avatar. Even their plot-involvement is mainly as a supporting protagonist & strategist, and when they do have their own plot importance, it comes across as that of a fixed character with a stake in events, rather than "Oh, your OC is so special and important! And are you feeling serviced yet, fans?" But, as a result, they'd almost be better off simply being a fixed character. You'd lose some things from that change, but not as many as you'd think, and I think the pros would outweigh the cons. Though I doubt it would get rid of the blandness considering, well, just look at Chrom…

Corrin probably has it the worst; they're too unique to work as a custom character in either gameplay or story, yet the plot wraps itself around that in a way that very much comes off as, "You, the player, are the center of everything that matters! Everyone loves you except for people with problems, and you're vital to the state of the world!" It's all so OC do-not-steal despite not even being a fanfiction. Corrin's one advantage is a rather shallow one: it's something TV Tropes calls Instant Awesome: Just Add Dragons. And even that was badly underutilized.

Byleth is very weird. You'd look at the limited customization, their uniqueness, and their plot relevance, and think that they're a fixed protagonist that you're simply guiding, like Geralt of Rivia from The Witcher games or Link from the later 3D Zelda games. Even their dialogue options would make them no more custom than Geralt. But then they still have the choice of name and birthday and such, they still have the blandness, and where Geralt and Link's dialogue options were all still in-character in their respective games, Byleth's dialogue options seem written more with a custom character in mind than a fixed character that we're guiding. As a result, Byleth manages to be more obstructive than Robin (though not nearly as much as Robin). That said, I can't deny the sheer amount of immersive opportunities Byleth is able to provide simply from being professor. You're actually there, interacting with these units, guiding them and helping them grow. 

 

I think, by process of elimination, Kris is the best at actually being a custom character, while Robin is the best at being an non-obstructive character, and Byleth has the most immersive potential. So it all depends on which pros you like the most, and which cons you dislike the least. What do you guys think of this?

Edited March 16, 2021 by vanguard333

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, Cosmic_Dragon said:

Like for example, I can imagine Byleth being able to teach magic cause he and his father actually spent some time in Morfis, during which he was trained in the mystic arts by people they met there. Or I can also imagine that they actually spent a few years in Sreng. Sreng is supposed to be a land of warriors right? Byleth spending some time there could explain why he'd be able to teach his students about different types of weapons (even if his main weapon are swords), cause he trained/grew up there for a few years (and that could also be the reason why Byleth is so proficient in Brawling). It actually ties into another headcanon I have about the badge Byleth wears, but that's another thing.

Being a level 1 unit with low weapon ranks is fundamentally incongruous with being an experienced, even renowned mercenary, though. It's textbook gameplay-story segregation. I get why they did it - "every main character starts at level 1", "the player will want to raise their unit from scratch", etc.. But it makes no sense, in light of the "Ashen Demon's" backstory.

[Cosmic_Dragon]

39 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Being a level 1 unit with low weapon ranks is fundamentally incongruous with being an experienced, even renowned mercenary, though. It's textbook gameplay-story segregation. I get why they did it - "every main character starts at level 1", "the player will want to raise their unit from scratch", etc.. But it makes no sense, in light of the "Ashen Demon's" backstory.

You're right, it doesn't make sense, but like you said, it's classic gameplay-story segregation, nothing actually tied to the story since I heavily doubt the concept of levels or weapon ranks/stats exists in the world of 3H, so I can easily overlook that and believe that in the story proper, Byleth would at a much higher level than that. It's like how when we first fight alongside Catherine (in the Lonato mission), she's only level 7 or so (if you're playing on Hard difficulty) and yet she's supposed to be one of the strongest Knights of Seiros. But again, gameplay-story segregation.

Thing is, I couldn't overlook Byleth being able to teach his students how to wield different kinds of weapons because in that case it's Byleth himself outright leveling up his students' stats through his lessons as a game mechanic that carries over into the battles rather than the students only being able to level up their abilities in battles, so I had to come up with a way to explain that.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 minutes ago, Cosmic_Dragon said:

Thing is, I couldn't overlook Byleth being able to teach his students how to wield different kinds of weapons because in that case it's Byleth himself outright leveling up his students' stats through his lessons as a game mechanic that carries over into the battles rather than the students only being able to level up their abilities in battles, so I had to come up with a way to explain that.

My headcanon is, when it comes to a subject the Professor doesn't know, they teach it through assigned reading, or by supervising their practice. It's only the subjects that they're proficient in, that they teach through demonstration or anecdote. Hence, the +2 boost when tutoring a student in a subject where their rank is behind the Professor's own rank.

[Cosmic_Dragon]

13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My headcanon is, when it comes to a subject the Professor doesn't know, they teach it through assigned reading, or by supervising their practice. It's only the subjects that they're proficient in, that they teach through demonstration or anecdote. Hence, the +2 boost when tutoring a student in a subject where their rank is behind the Professor's own rank.

That can also work, but I do like to think that Byleth's got at least some experience handling all those subjects (even if it's just a bit more than the basics) if they can still supervise their students' practice to help them get better at them (I mean, them having been mercenaries makes me doubt that they have never worked with any other weapons than swords and/or their fists). 

[Seazas]

On 3/6/2021 at 6:09 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

I am game for the Kris support. Honestly the poor gal/guy is almost always unfairly maligned.

"Unfairly" I'm sick of people saying this. People give constant hate to Corrin and Byleth and there's not nearly as many people caring. Kris' hate is the natural result of their poorly handled inclusion. It's like making someone as unengaging (for some people) and controversial as Conrad steal the show and constantly be forced into scenes that aren't about them. Imagine Alm and Celica's personal lord moments but with Conrad forced in every single scene. Along with retconning cool characters like Mae and Kliff to randomly be Conrad's best friend and ignore Boey + others. That is essentially what happens with Kris. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, Seazas said:

"Unfairly" I'm sick of people saying this. People give constant hate to Corrin and Byleth and there's not nearly as many people caring. Kris' hate is the natural result of their poorly handled inclusion. It's like making someone as unengaging (for some people) and controversial as Conrad steal the show and constantly be forced into scenes that aren't about them. Imagine Alm and Celica's personal lord moments but with Conrad forced in every single scene. Along with retconning cool characters like Mae and Kliff to randomly be Conrad's best friend and ignore Boey + others. That is essentially what happens with Kris. 

To be honest I actually wish Conrad did more in Shadows of Valentia. He does shit all to really justify his existence in the plot. Shouldn't the mere fact that he's alive complicate Celica's status as heir to Zofia even a bit? He seems both older than her and male.

[Seazas]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

To be honest I actually wish Conrad did more in Shadows of Valentia. He does shit all to really justify his existence in the plot. Shouldn't the mere fact that he's alive complicate Celica's status as heir to Zofia even a bit? He seems both older than her and male.

Conrad hid his identity and ran from responsibility. Him sticking with Celica (thus preventing any of the Deliverance from seeing him and going "oh shit! COULD YOU BE THE HIER?") and relinquishing any potential inheritance by default (since he gave the circlet to Celica) nulls any issues. Regardless, Kris' inclusion was like having Conrad actively be present in say... Alm's speeches and good moments like Rudolf's demise, all while randomly showering Conrad in praise within those moments.

Kris sucks.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

Conrad hid his identity and ran from responsibility. Him sticking with Celica (thus preventing any of the Deliverance from seeing him and going "oh shit! COULD YOU BE THE HIER?") and relinquishing any potential inheritance by default (since he gave the circlet to Celica) nulls any issues. Regardless, Kris' inclusion was like having Conrad actively be present in say... Alm's speeches and good moments like Rudolf's demise, all while randomly showering Conrad in praise within those moments.

Kris sucks.

All great suggestions if it can make Conrad feel like a more meaningful addition to the story.

[Seazas]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

All great suggestions if it can make Conrad feel like a more meaningful addition to the story.

If it's not a good suggestion if it actively lowers the meaningful shit of others + lowers writing quality. Nor does it make sense to constantly smother a random unrelated dude in unnecessary praise just for helping out and existing.

Kris bad. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

If it's not a good suggestion if it actively lowers the meaningful shit of others + lowers writing quality. Nor does it make sense to constantly smother a random unrelated dude in unnecessary praise just for helping out and existing.

Kris bad. 

Indeed. It's a good thing Kris doesn't do any of that at all. Mystery of the Emblem didn't have enough actual characters to smother in the first place.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

Conrad hid his identity and ran from responsibility. Him sticking with Celica (thus preventing any of the Deliverance from seeing him and going "oh shit! COULD YOU BE THE HIER?") and relinquishing any potential inheritance by default (since he gave the circlet to Celica) nulls any issues. Regardless, Kris' inclusion was like having Conrad actively be present in say... Alm's speeches and good moments like Rudolf's demise, all while randomly showering Conrad in praise within those moments.

Kris sucks.

So did Celica, though? She hides her identity as a princess of Zofia, in order to protect herself. Even when she meets Alm, who mentions the possibility of an heir, she holds her cards close to her chest. The thing is, none of this means she's disclaiming her status as royal heir. But neither do Conrad's actions.

For the record, I like Conrad when he's part of the army. But before that, he comes across as a "fixer" in the story. When Celica makes a bad decision, or finds herself in a hard scenario that isn't her fault, he intervenes to "fix" everything for her. He shows up just when the plot needs him to. Admittedly, Celica does the same thing for Alm, with weird spirit magic - when Berkut smashes the mirror, and when Alm is stuck on the Necrodragon mountain. It's just a weird thing that SoV does, that come across as weakening the story.

[vanguard333]

…How did a topic about avatars end up talking about Shadows of Valentia? And could someone please reply to what I said about Kris, Robin, Corrin and Byleth?

 

On 3/14/2021 at 11:13 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My headcanon is, when it comes to a subject the Professor doesn't know, they teach it through assigned reading, or by supervising their practice. It's only the subjects that they're proficient in, that they teach through demonstration or anecdote. Hence, the +2 boost when tutoring a student in a subject where their rank is behind the Professor's own rank.

Is this really headcanon? I figured it was just something you were supposed to infer given, as you pointed out, the boost when the student is being trained in a subject that Byleth's higher-ranked in, especially since the other professors have no real-world combat experience and they teach their students just fine.

[null]

I'd say Byleth, since their lack of heavy characterization lends to the self-insert nature of most avatars quite well.

Robin and Corrin actually carry quite a bit of personality and characterization, so I consider them full characters as well as avatars.

Mark might as well not exist, since they're hardly seen and play no role in the actual gameplay.

Kris is a blight on what should've been Marth's show. While I still enjoy FE12, I dislike their presence in the story. Although I can't completely fault them, since their inclusion causes other characters to get more development. I can at least appreciate that.

I can't speak for Kiran since I don't play Heroes.

All that said, I do prefer FE w/o avatars. I'd rather have stronger protagonists who stand on their own without a self-insert present.

Edited March 16, 2021 by twilitfalchion

[lenticular]

48 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Is this really headcanon? I figured it was just something you were supposed to infer given, as you pointed out, the boost when the student is being trained in a subject that Byleth's higher-ranked in, especially since the other professors have no real-world combat experience and they teach their students just fine.

It also comes up in Linhardt and Petra's supports, which are pretty much all about how he knows enough theory to be able to usefully instruct her, but is completely useless in practice. For instance: "The spear isn't really my area of expertise, but I've seen enough training to understand the mechanics. I believe I can use that understanding to further help you improve your spearwork."

[Seazas]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Indeed. It's a good thing Kris doesn't do any of that at all. Mystery of the Emblem didn't have enough actual characters to smother in the first place.

Considering Kris actively shafts the cast to make the writing more about them, yes they do. If you're so desperate to defend Kris that you make stuff up while dissing an entire cast, you're blinded. Kris making scenes like the retreat turn into praising Kris is fucking awful. Gaiden had less than Archanea and yet Gaiden was able to make a full likable cast out of these nobodies. Archanea absolutely deserved more than the complete shafting they had.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So did Celica, though? She hides her identity as a princess of Zofia, in order to protect herself. Even when she meets Alm, who mentions the possibility of an heir, she holds her cards close to her chest. The thing is, none of this means she's disclaiming her status as royal heir. But neither do Conrad's actions.

For the record, I like Conrad when he's part of the army. But before that, he comes across as a "fixer" in the story. When Celica makes a bad decision, or finds herself in a hard scenario that isn't her fault, he intervenes to "fix" everything for her. He shows up just when the plot needs him to. Admittedly, Celica does the same thing for Alm, with weird spirit magic - when Berkut smashes the mirror, and when Alm is stuck on the Necrodragon mountain. It's just a weird thing that SoV does, that come across as weakening the story.

Celica is surrounded by far more people that know her identity and she accepts the circlet and role as a princess. Conrad already disclaimed his status as heir by trusting his sister to do it.

It's always a controversial thing with Conrad. Kris is Conrad's controversial story scenes but way worse since it makes a lot FE3's stuff turn into pure Kris praise. Even Conrad's scenes have the cast poking fun of him unlike that piece of garbage Kris.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Seazas

[Eltosian Kadath]

7 hours ago, Seazas said:

People give constant hate to Corrin and Byleth and there's not nearly as many people caring.

People treat Kris like they are worse than Corrin or Byleth, when Kris is a lot closer to Robin than either of those two. Kris even does some extra good by acting as a brick wall for characters that otherwise get no lines or personality to support off of to give us some idea of who they are. There Kris is adding things to the cast of New Mystery with their bland wall like presence.

 

7 hours ago, Seazas said:

It's like making someone as unengaging (for some people) and controversial as Conrad steal the show and constantly be forced into scenes that aren't about them. Imagine Alm and Celica's personal lord moments but with Conrad forced in every single scene. 

...so Kris is Jagen from the original Mystery of the Emblem, whom was always there to butt into all of Marth's big personal Lord moments, but isn't playable and was really boring...Kris may have taken a couple of Jagen's lines, but only because they are taking over part of the same obstructive role in the story that Jagen had (and Kris didn't even steal Jagen's single cool moment, when he confronts Lang). Whether it's Jagen or Kris taking that role, that was always a part of the Mystery of the Emblem book 2 story, and Jagen is the only one Kris was ever taking thing away from.

 

7 hours ago, Seazas said:

Along with retconning cool characters like Mae and Kliff to randomly be Conrad's best friend and ignore Boey + others. That is essentially what happens with Kris. 

What characters from Mystery of the emblem are these metaphorical Mae, Kliff, and "other" supposed to be? Who even got enough lines in Mystery of the Emblem book 2 to even fit these hypothetical roles?

 

[Seazas]

8 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

People treat Kris like they are worse than Corrin or Byleth, when Kris is a lot closer to Robin than either of those two. Kris even does some extra good by acting as a brick wall for characters that otherwise get no lines or personality to support off of to give us some idea of who they are. There Kris is adding things to the cast of New Mystery with their bland wall like presence.

 

...so Kris is Jagen from the original Mystery of the Emblem, whom was always there to butt into all of Marth's big personal Lord moments, but isn't playable and was really boring...Kris may have taken a couple of Jagen's lines, but only because they are taking over part of the same obstructive role in the story that Jagen had (and Kris didn't even steal Jagen's single cool moment, when he confronts Lang). Whether it's Jagen or Kris taking that role, that was always a part of the Mystery of the Emblem book 2 story, and Jagen is the only one Kris was ever taking thing away from.

 

What characters from Mystery of the emblem are these metaphorical Mae, Kliff, and "other" supposed to be? Who even got enough lines in Mystery of the Emblem book 2 to even fit these hypothetical roles?

 

Corrin and Byleth do the same thing but better since they're actual characters that fit in their own stories. Kris doesn't add much of anything nor what Kris "brings" is exclusive to them nor that great. A lot of characters' only support in FE12 center around Kris and their minimal 

Jagen doesn't steal Marth's moments of competency actually. Marth makes a plan and does a lot more on his own than in FE12. In Chapter 17, Marth cooks up a plan to show his competency, in FE12 he asks Kris to do it. That is some prime character butchering just to make Kris look good. Or how Elice ignores Marth's entire arc of FE11 (with Elice constantly saying... even in HEROES how much Marth's grown) to put him down purely to place importance in Kris' role as "bodyguard". Maeda literally had Elice act out of her canon character to put Kris on a pedestal. Elice is one of the few to acknowledge Marth's growth as she is his close sibling, that's ignored in FE12 because FE12's too busy worshipping Kris to write characters consistently.

Norne as a character had some relations and interesting potential before FE12, and then FE12 reduced her to a Kris cheerleader. Norne could've been so much more, she has canon relations to Draug and Gordin. Say what you will about Byleth and Corrin, at least they have the decency not to make characters' entire traits be worshipping them.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Seazas