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[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

They don't actively make the story worse like what Kris does to FE12. It's complete nonsense and nothing but avatar pandering to put Kris on a pedestal as much as he did.

The charming dialogue of Shadow Dragon gave some more things to the characters, at least more than what they had in the original.

Kris doesn't make the story worse though. S/he doesn't change anything about any of the story beats that are present, everything is still ther and in fact adds life to the story in areas that are little more than massive lore exposition dumps.

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And the Gaidens focus on Kris, as I said, Kris steals the spotlight that could've went to other characters.

None of the characters are owed focus. Should we be mad at Athena for stealing the spotlight from a Gaiden that could have went to Hardin? I would have definitley preferred a Hardin focused paralogue in Shadow Dragon, but that's Shadow Dragon's fault, not Athena's fault.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Jotari

[Kalken]

None of the Avatars are really good characters since Fire Emblem is not designed for such. It's not a sandbox series after all.

With that said, Byleth is reallllly a bad case of them trying to have their cake and eat it. They make hir a bland and inoffensive character to fit being a self-insert while also having some excuse of muh experiments making her lose emoshun, and yet try to make hir centric to both the overall plot/setting by being more or less the 2nd coming of Christ and every Lord's mental universe (NAMELY Edelgard which reallly didn't help with her writing). They should've either not even bothered making Byleth a self-insert or just made someone like idunno Rhea or Seteth the Lord instead (obvs the plot would be changed). I'll throw in that A LOT of the writing surrounding the Slithers, Byleth, and Edel is sloppy (namely in regards to the Slithers' capabilities being whatever they need for the plot like when Edel supposedly has no choice but to be complicit in their crimes and are hyperskilled enough to run circles around Rhea but can't think of a plan to control Ms. Gard beyond "fire missile").

Corrin has the opposite problem where h/she's actually well-characterized except it's too poorly written.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Kalken

[Seazas]

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

And FE3 Jagen was blatantly shafting Malledus when he arbitrarily usurped the advisor role in FE3. Why is it fine for some nobody like Jagen to steal the advisor role, when it isn't for Kris?

 

And  as it said in that conversation, all of that growth was thanks to Marth's friends...FEH is showing a post FE12 Marth and Elice, where he has overcome that weakness thanks to his friends. Plus immediately after that line she utterly embarrasses Marth by forcing him to shop for feminine gifts for Caeda when he doesn't feel comfortable doing so. Elice was entirely in character, as even in that conversation she shows she will embarrass Marth if its for his own benefit.

 

And they literally made more of those than they did supports in Echoes, and 1/3 (closer to 3/8th really..) of the cast would still be getting nothing (and needless to say those are already spread thinner than Echoe's supports thanks to the massive cast).

 

You might not like it, but Kris is a useful narrative device for fleshing out characters with supports, especially when they have to create supports for such a large cast, and with the smaller budget of a remake. Kris's blandness even help keep them from overshadowing the characters those supports are for...

 

And that is no worse than any of the other avatars on this list. Kris is simply doing the same sort of thing all the other avatars do in warping the story around them, and they get more flak for it than they deserve.

 

You might want to try reading more carefully before commenting next time, as I was critiquing the writing of Shadow Dragon, not commenting on New Mystery's.

Malledus retired what the fuck are you talking about. Malledus was old in Shadow Dragon and Mystery takes place several years after. Makes sense Jagen would take the mantle. Also... LOL, trying to call Jagen a nobody when he's been a reliable figure for Marth even before the war. How desperate can you be? 

Wrong, Marth and Elice in Heroes aren't based off FE12. They never mention Kris and instead talk about allies that were by Marth's side since the beginning of Shadow Dragon. "Marth: It's true, though! Jagen, Cain, Abel, Gordin...and so many more... Caeda too, of course. Their support has been...a true gift." If it was post FE12, Abel wouldn't be mentioned since Abel betrayed him and vanished at the end of FE12. Kris would be #1 in mentions as well. Anyway, Elice talks about Marth fondly and doesn't talk about weakness, interesting headcanon all the same for the winter unit. Unfortunately, it does not apply here. Elice constantly sings praises for Marth even in Heroes while acknowledging his growth + maturity. Which is what she does in every game except FE12, randomly putting him down for the sake of placing importance on Kris. Terrible writing, frankly.

Not enough supports, tons of characters only have one support and it's with Kris. Most of the time the support centers around Kris and their mediocre gimmicks. Echoes, meanwhile, dedicates a lot more to the cast (like making Clive, Gray, Mae, etc contribute to the plot) and don't have a random avatar soak up a lot of the script. Also wrong, Kris and their multitude of gimmicks takes center stage in the majority of their supports. Kris does not deserve credit for a support system, something existed before Kris and it wasn't even well done in FE12 since 80% of Archanea's cast is still unpopular and forgotten (Rip Darros).

It's significantly worse, Corrin and Byleth aren't forced in an established story. Fates and Three Houses actually account for them and their place in the world. They have a more interesting backstory. Can't say the same for Kris since they come out of a nowhere village and becomes Marth's closest confidant instantly. Byleth and Corrin aren't flawless (nor good) but they would've been a LOT worse if they pushed in a remake. Imagine Ike having a super secret best friend that pops in out of nowhere and takes some of the achievements Ike does in the originals. That would be shit and it's exactly what happens with Marth.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Kris doesn't make the story worse though. S/he doesn't change anything about any of the story beats that are present, everything is still ther and in fact adds life to the story in areas that are little more than massive lore exposition dumps.

None of the characters are owed focus. Should we be mad at Athena for stealing the spotlight from a Gaiden that could have went to Hardin? I would have definitley preferred a Hardin focused paralogue in Shadow Dragon, but that's Shadow Dragon's fault, not Athena's fault.

They definitely do, they turn a lot of perfectly good scenes into worse ones. That strong Hardin retreat scene didn't need to turn into a Kris wankfest. Nor did Marth's moments of competency, such as Chapter 17, turn into him being unable to function and need Kris for help once again.

Kris wasn't owed focus either yet they centered a lot of dialogue on that poorly handled character. The Gaidens being poorly handled are a common criticism of FE11. Also, you are right, which is why I blame both FE12 and Kris. Kris is a boring character forced in a narrative that didn't work. Kris would've worked better with their own game.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, Seazas said:

They definitely do, they turn a lot of perfectly good scenes into worse ones. That strong Hardin retreat scene didn't need to turn into a Kris wankfest. Nor did Marth's moments of competency, such as Chapter 17, turn into him being unable to function and need Kris for help once again.

Marth's still competent though. The game gives Kris focus, but that never actually takes away from Marth.

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Kris wasn't owed focus either yet they centered a lot of dialogue on that poorly handled character.

I never said Kris was owed focus. S/he got it, because they chose to make a new character, but that doesn't they were owed it. No one was owed it. That's my point. They could have went and made Draug a central character if they wanted to, which probably would have been an equally good decision (or better, or worse depending on how they handle it). That's the point, no one was owed focus. Did Gray and Tobin shaft Kliff by being focus characters while Kilff wasn't, despite being part of the same trio? By your logic, yes they did, but I don't think so.

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The Gaidens being poorly handled are a common criticism of FE11. Also, you are right, which is why I blame both FE12 and Kris. Kris is a boring character forced in a narrative that didn't work. Kris would've worked better with their own game.

The Gaidens in Shadow Dragon are criticized for the mechanics in unlocking them. Not for their content. That's deflecting the point of my comparison. So I'll ask again, is it Athena or Ymir's fault that Hardin or Minerva didn't get a Gaiden in Shadow Dragon?

Edited March 18, 2021 by Jotari

[Seazas]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Marth's still competent though. The game gives Kris focus, but that never actually takes away from Marth.

I never said Kris was owed focus. S/he got it, because they chose to make a new character, but that doesn't they were owed it. No one was owed it. That's my point. They could have went and made Draug a central character if they wanted to, which probably would have been an equally good decision (or better, or worse depending on how they handle it). That's the point, no one was owed focus. Did Gray and Boey shaft Kliff by being focus characters while Kilff wasn't, despite being part of the same trio? By your logic, yes they did, but I don't think so.

The Gaidens in Shadow Dragon are criticized for the mechanics in unlocking them. Not for their content. That's deflecting the point of my comparison. So I'll ask again, is it Athena or Ymir's fault that Hardin or Minerva didn't get a Gaiden in Shadow Dragon?

He's made LESS competent, some of his achievements that show Marth's smarts and tactics was given to Kris. There is no excuse for that.

Gray and Tobin weren't forced into an established game, they are existing characters that got more limelight that they deserved. They become a lot more likable and got to display their personalities. Shame FE12 didn't do that and would rather circlejerk some forced avatar inclusion, huh?

The new characters were mediocre and unneeded in Shadow Dragon too. They're unpopular and never cared about for a reason. At least they stay out of the main plot unlike Kris, who bogs it down with unneeded avatar worship.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

He's made LESS competent, some of his achievements that show Marth's smarts and tactics was given to Kris. There is no excuse for that.

The excuse is that it didn't happen. Marth still shows the same leadership qualities by working with his army to come up with a plan.

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

Gray and Tobin weren't forced into an established game, they are existing characters that got more limelight that they deserved. They become a lot more likable and got to display their personalities. Shame FE12 didn't do that and would rather circlejerk some forced avatar inclusion, huh?

That's side stepping the question again. Did Gray and Tobin shaft Kliff by becoming limelight characters?

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

The new characters were mediocre and unneeded in Shadow Dragon too. They're unpopular and never cared about for a reason. At least they stay out of the main plot unlike Kris, who bogs it down with unneeded avatar worship.

So you do think it is Athena's fault that Hardin didn't get a Gaiden? I didn't ask you what you thought about them as characters, I asked if you blame then for characters like Hardin and Minerva not getting more focus.

[Seazas]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

The excuse is that it didn't happen. Marth still shows the same leadership qualities by working with his army to come up with a plan.

That's side stepping the question again. Did Gray and Tobin shaft Kliff by becoming limelight characters?

So you do think it is Athena's fault that Hardin didn't get a Gaiden? I didn't ask you what you thought about them as characters, I asked if you blame then for characters like Hardin and Minerva not getting more focus.

So it's an excuse, as I said. Because Marth's capability of forming tactics was taken away and instead given to Kris.

Your question is worthless. Gray and Tobin aren't bland avatars that stole the limelight from Alm and Celica.

Nope since they don't exist in the story, they have the hinge on gaidens in any hope of getting anything. 

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Seazas said:

So it's an excuse, as I said. Because Marth's capability of forming tactics was taken away and instead given to Kris.

Like in Chapter 8 where Marth want's to rush forward but Abel and Jeigan convince him that's not the best thing to do?

10 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Your question is worthless. Gray and Tobin aren't bland avatars that stole the limelight from Alm and Celica.

Well Kris isn't bland in my opinion, you can say they are if you find them bland, but that's beside the point. Gray and Tobin were given focus instead of other characters, does that make it their fault that other characters didn't get expanded upon? Or better yet, is there a hard coded limit to the number of characters that can be given focus in the game? Shadows of Valentia has three (fourish later on with Conrad and Mycen), Clive, Tobin and Gray for Alm; Mae, Boey and Saber for Celica. New Mystery has two, Jeigan and Kris, with Jeigan more or less getting replaced with Xane for a segment of the game. How does Kris getting focus stop Draug or Gordin? Mae getting focus didn't stop Boey. Tobin getting focus didn't stop Clive. I can understand how you might want other characters to have more screen time, but you're projecting by putting all the blame on Kris. It's New Mystery's fault characters didn't get more supports or have more screen time in the plot, not Kris's fault. Just like it's Shadow Dragons fault they didn't expand on Hardin's pre corruption character, not Athena's fault.

10 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Nope since they don't exist in the story, they have the hinge on gaidens in any hope of getting anything. 

You will have to rephrase this for it to make sense. In either case Hardin didn't get any expansion in either the Gaiden's or the main story, and that's no inuniverse character's fault.

[Seazas]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Like in Chapter 8 where Marth want's to rush forward but Abel and Jeigan convince him that's not the best thing to do?

Well Kris isn't bland in my opinion, you can say they are if you find them bland, but that's beside the point. Gray and Tobin were given focus instead of other characters, does that make it their fault that other characters didn't get expanded upon? Or better yet, is there a hard coded limit to the number of characters that can be given focus in the game? Shadows of Valentia has three (fourish later on with Conrad and Mycen), Clive, Tobin and Gray for Alm; Mae, Boey and Saber for Celica. New Mystery has two, Jeigan and Kris, with Jeigan more or less getting replaced with Xane for a segment of the game. How does Kris getting focus stop Draug or Gordin? Mae getting focus didn't stop Boey. Tobin getting focus didn't stop Clive. I can understand how you might want other characters to have more screen time, but you're projecting by putting all the blame on Kris. It's New Mystery's fault characters didn't get more supports or have more screen time in the plot, not Kris's fault. Just like it's Shadow Dragons fault they didn't expand on Hardin's pre corruption character, not Athena's fault.

You will have to rephrase this for it to make sense. In either case Hardin didn't get any expansion in either the Gaiden's or the main story, and that's no inuniverse character's fault.

In Shadow Dragon? So that furthers Marth's growth and competency since he learns to keep himself together and come up with plans that surprise Jagen himself... Chapter 17 would've been a fantastic showcase if Marth didn't have that scene robbed.

Everyone was expanded upon. Even Deen and Jesse have whole ass backstories that they never received in Gaiden. I'm more than satisfied with the cast, if only FE12 got that kind of love than wanking Kris. We still don't know shit outside of the bare minimum for say... Draug and Gordin despite being here since the beginning. I told you already Jotari, I largely blame New Mystery too. But I also dislike Kris for hijacking the game. Kris did not fit in the story yet FE12 forced them in anyway.

Yeah, and? 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Seazas said:

In Shadow Dragon? So that furthers Marth's growth and competency... Chapter 17 would've been another fantastic showcase if Marth didn't have that scene robbed.

No, in Mystery of the Emblem. Soulful Bridge. Marth wants to crush Hardin's forces but Abel and Jeigan convince Marth they can't win. Marth being an expert tactician has never been part of his character, that's more Roy's and Robin's schitck, if it's anyone at all's. Marth has always been a leader, so him leading by forming plans with his army lends to his overall competency. What are you referring to in Chapter 17 anyway? I've just taken a look at the Mystery of the Emblem script for Chapter 17 and Marth doesn't even get a line in it. It's all about Sheema and Samson.

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Everyone was expanded upon. Even Deen and Jesse have whole ass backstories that they never received in Gaiden. I'm more than satisfied with the cast, if only FE12 got that kind of love than wanking Kris. We still don't know shit outside of the bare minimum for say... Draug and Gordin despite being here since the beginning. I told you already Jotari, I largely blame New Mystery too. But I also dislike Kris for hijacking the game. Kris did not fit in the story yet FE12 forced them in anyway.

Yeah, and? 

Shadow Dragon didn't give us any of that background information on the Archanea cast either, so why is it Kris's fault?

Edited March 18, 2021 by Jotari

[Seazas]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

No, in Mystery of the Emblem. Soulful Bridge. Marth wants to crush Hardin's forces but Abel and Jeigan convince Marth they can't win. Marth being an expert tactician has never been part of his character, that's more Roy's and Robin's schitck, if it's anyone at all's. Marth has always been a leader, so him leading by forming plans with his army lends to his overall competency. What are you referring to in Chapter 17 anyway? I've just taken a look at the Mystery of the Emblem script for Chapter 17 and Marth doesn't even get a line in it. It's all about Sheema and Samson.

Shadow Dragon didn't give us any of that background information on the Archanea cast either, so why is it Kris's fault?

He was still competent enough to make plans of his own, some were rash but it's established in Mystery that he had a lot of room for growth. Chapter 17 showed Marth's gradual improvement. It's not like Chrom where he's an idiot that constantly needs a tactician to function. 

Marth:
Mmm, I was thinking the same.
If we keep heading east, more needless blood will be spilt.
So I have decided a different route for us to go.
How about we go directly south from Menedi, and enter Pales from Adria Peak?

For hogging the dialogue, they'd rather force some shitty backstory to Kris than make the Archanea cast worth a damn.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Seazas said:

He was still competent enough to make plans of his own, some were rash but it's established in Mystery that he had a lot of room for growth. Chapter 17 showed Marth's gradual improvement. It's not like Chrom where he's an idiot that constantly needs a tactician to function. 

Marth:
Mmm, I was thinking the same.
If we keep heading east, more needless blood will be spilt.
So I have decided a different route for us to go.
How about we go directly south from Menedi, and enter Pales from Adria Peak?

For hogging the dialogue, they'd rather force some shitty backstory to Kris than make the Archanea cast worth a damn.

Ah, so you're talking about the ending of the chapter. Alright, let's examine this line by line with New Mystery.

Old Mystery

[Jeigan]
Lord Marth, if this battle continues it will become meaningless, and will only
give more time for Hardin.
[Marth]
Mmm, I was thinking the same.
If we keep heading east, more needless blood will be spilt.
So I have decided a different route for us to go.
How about we go directly south from Menedi, and enter Pales from Adria Peak?
[Jeigan]
You want the troops to cross that dangerous mountain path?
It's too dangerous...
[Marth]
I am already prepared for danger.
Besides, we were able to conquer the dangerous Anri's Way, so this should be
easy in comparison...
[Jeigan]
...That's a fair point.
If we can cross it, we can attack the enemy from the rear.
Understood, we'll try that.

New Mystery

Jagen:
Sire, to keep fighting like this is pointless. All we are accomplishing is buying Hardin more time.

Marth:
My thoughts exactly. If we continue like this, more blood will be spilt for naught. Chris, do you have any sort of plan?

Chris:
According to our information, the enemy's primary force is concentrated along the highway. I wonder if we can avoid that route, by passing through the mountains?

Jagen:
Hmph, we'd have to cross Adria Pass... But the steep mountains make it dangerous for an army of our size.

Chris:
That's true, and I fear the enemy may have prepared an ambush as well. Our bravery could be our undoing. But it is the fastest possible route. If we could just break through there, we'd be in walking distance of the palace.

Marth:
I am prepared for the danger. We managed to conquer the same perilous road that Anri walked. Compared to that... Jagen, Chris. We can overcome this challenge. Order the advance!

 

In the original we have Marth come up with a different route and ask Jeigan about it. Jeigan warns against it because of the terrain, Marth justifies it by pointing out they made it though Anri's Way.

In the remake, Marth asks Kris for an idea, Kris suggests the route, Jeigan warns against it because of the terrain, Kris acknowledges Jeigan's concerns, and then it's Marth who again makes the decision and justifies it by pointing out they made it through Anri's Way. So in both scenarios, critically, Marth is making the decision, and Marth is also justifying the reason for the decision. The only thing Kris actually does that Marth does in the original is look at a map and find the route. Furthermore, by having Jeigan and Kris having different view points on this subject, we get a classic two advisor scenario from Thracia with August and Dorias, and to a lesser extent in Path of Radiance with Tatiana and Soren, where the two advisors are of differing opinions and the protagonist weighs in with a decision, showing their leadership skills.

EDIT: Colour coded the quotes. Purple is a Jeigan original line, Blue is a Marth original line and Yellow is a New Line. As that shows, Kris takes only one line of the whole conversation from Marth, the introduction of the route, Kris's second line in the conversation is not taken from Marth, it's an original line where he acknowledges Jeigan's concerns but still thinks the route through the pass is the best choice. Marth retains the rebuttal he originally had where he disagrees with Jeigan's concerns and justifies it by bringing up Anri's Way. And funny enough, Marth sort of steals Jeigan's final line by being the one to end the conversation and declare it what they're doing.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Jotari

[Seazas]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ah, so you're talking about the ending of the chapter. Alright, let's examine this line by line with New Mystery.

Old Mystery

[Jeigan]
Lord Marth, if this battle continues it will become meaningless, and will only
give more time for Hardin.
[Marth]
Mmm, I was thinking the same.
If we keep heading east, more needless blood will be spilt.
So I have decided a different route for us to go.
How about we go directly south from Menedi, and enter Pales from Adria Peak?
[Jeigan]
You want the troops to cross that dangerous mountain path?
It's too dangerous...
[Marth]
I am already prepared for danger.
Besides, we were able to conquer the dangerous Anri's Way, so this should be
easy in comparison...
[Jeigan]
...That's a fair point.
If we can cross it, we can attack the enemy from the rear.
Understood, we'll try that.

New Mystery

Jagen:
Sire, to keep fighting like this is pointless. All we are accomplishing is buying Hardin more time.

Marth:
My thoughts exactly. If we continue like this, more blood will be spilt for naught. Chris, do you have any sort of plan?

Chris:
According to our information, the enemy's primary force is concentrated along the highway. I wonder if we can avoid that route, by passing through the mountains?

Jagen:
Hmph, we'd have to cross Adria Pass... But the steep mountains make it dangerous for an army of our size.

Chris:
That's true, and I fear the enemy may have prepared an ambush as well. Our bravery could be our undoing. But it is the fastest possible route. If we could just break through there, we'd be in walking distance of the palace.

Marth:
I am prepared for the danger. We managed to conquer the same perilous road that Anri walked. Compared to that... Jagen, Chris. We can overcome this challenge. Order the advance!

 

In the original we have Marth come up with a different route and ask Jeigan about it. Jeigan warns against it because of the terrain, Marth justifies it by pointing out they made it though Anri's Way.

In the remake, Marth asks Kris for an idea, Kris suggests the route, Jeigan warns against it because of the terrain, Kris acknowledges Jeigan's concerns, and then it's Marth who again makes the decision and justifies it by pointing out they made it through Anri's Way. So in both scenarios, critically, Marth is making the decision, and Marth is also justifying the reason for the decision. The only thing Kris actually does that Marth does in the original is look at a map and find the route. Furthermore, by having Jeigan and Kris having different view points on this subject, we get a classic two advisor scenario from Thracia with August and Dorias, and to a lesser extent in Path of Radiance with Tatiana and Soren, where the two advisors are of differing opinions and the protagonist weighs in with a decision, showing their leadership skills.

EDIT: Colour coded the quotes. Purple is a Jeigan original line, Blue is a Marth original line and Yellow is a New Line. As that shows, Kris takes only one line of the whole conversation from Marth, the introduction of the route, Kris's second line in the conversation is not taken from Marth, it's an original line where he acknowledges Jeigan's concerns but still thinks the route through the pass is the best choice. Marth retains the rebuttal he originally had where he disagrees with Jeigan's concerns and justifies it by bringing up Anri's Way. And funny enough, Marth sort of steals Jeigan's final line by being the one to end the conversation and declare it what they're doing.

And I hate the new version, it was awesome seeing Marth further step up to the plate and make a tactical suggestion than what Jagen would expect. It reinforces how much he's growing and improving than constantly having others, especially a fucking nobody doing it constantly. Kris blatantly doesn't fit in FE12's story, at best he should've been another side character that's only relevant during the Assassins arc.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

And I hate the new version, it was awesome seeing Marth further step up to the plate and make a tactical suggestion than what Jagen would expect. It reinforces how much he's growing and improving than constantly having others, especially a fucking nobody doing it constantly. Kris blatantly doesn't fit in FE12's story, at best he should've been another side character that's only relevant during the Assassins arc.

And Marth still makes the tactical decision. Kris just presents the infromation to him.

[Vicious Sal]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

And Marth still makes the tactical decision. Kris just presents the infromation to him.

And you're both arguing past one another. You're stuck on the decision. Seazas doesn't like more than that, which you're ignoring.

It's the fact that Marth is not only making decisions, he's grown and has become a capable mind who is able to deduce, strategise and pivot in heated scenario's. Chris takes everything from Marth except the decision. And that's why Chris is disliked by Seazas. (At least partly, there may be more reasons.)

[Eltosian Kadath]

7 hours ago, Seazas said:

Malledus retired what the fuck are you talking about. Malledus was old in Shadow Dragon and Mystery takes place several years after.

Got any kind of source for that Malledus retirement, for I am certain neither pf FE11 or FE12 mentions that. He is just gone without explanation, and Jagen has stolen his place...

 

7 hours ago, Seazas said:

Makes sense Jagen would take the mantle. Also... LOL, trying to call Jagen a nobody when he's been a reliable figure for Marth even before the war. How desperate can you be? 

It makes less sense than Kris becoming an advisor. Jagen wasn't an advisor before, we don't see him interested, or involved in the discussions between Marth and Malledus in Shadow Dragon, or practice his skills as an advisor. Meanwhile we do see Kris being an active observer of the discussions between Jagen and Marth, learning from Jagen before transitioning into an advisor in his own right. The only thing that makes Jagen special is that he is a competent and loyal soldier of Altea, just like Kris is, and he is no more special than Kris is. If Kris is some nobody, so is Jagen.

 

7 hours ago, Seazas said:

 

Wrong, Marth and Elice in Heroes aren't based off FE12. They never mention Kris and instead talk about allies that were by Marth's side since the beginning of Shadow Dragon. "Marth: It's true, though! Jagen, Cain, Abel, Gordin...and so many more... Caeda too, of course. Their support has been...a true gift." If it was post FE12, Abel wouldn't be mentioned since Abel betrayed him and vanished at the end of FE12. Kris would be #1 in mentions as well.

If Heroes wanted this to explicitly be a Shadow Dragon version of Marth & Elice they could have indicated that with his game of origin. As for Abel, if his treachery were as great as you act Marth wouldn't have risked his life trying to talk to his friend on the battle field. As for the lack of Kris mention, Heroes has always been kinda weird about Kris because his appearance, gender, and existence are dependent on the player and version of the game.

9 hours ago, Seazas said:

Unfortunately, it does not apply here. Elice constantly sings praises for Marth even in Heroes while acknowledging his growth + maturity. Which is what she does in every game except FE12, randomly putting him down for the sake of placing importance on Kris. Terrible writing, frankly.

Don't know where your strange notions about Elice's character comes from, but she has always been about helping Marth in ways he wouldn't want, but still needs. From the very beginning when she lies to his face and puts herself in danger to protect him, and into FE12 where she tells Kris an uncomfortable truth about Marth in hopes of helping the prince, and even into this strange FEH appearance, where she forces Marth outside his comfort zone to buy gifts for Caeda that will strength their relationship.

 

8 hours ago, Seazas said:

 

Not enough supports, tons of characters only have one support and it's with Kris. Most of the time the support centers around Kris and their mediocre gimmicks.

And without Kris there would have been even less supports than there are, and that is the point I am making. Having a single bland character they can shove into one side of the support makes it easier for them to pump those supports out, and that was added to a list of supports between other characters, which already outnumbered the number of supports they had to make for Echoes. Plus this notion about most of them centering around Kris's gimmick doesn't holds much water. To test this I used a random number generator to decide on 9 support to look through, and added Darros in as well due to you mentioning him.

Spoiler

First is Frey, and it centers around him, why he became an instructor, and about those same qualities leading to him becoming the decoy for Marth, and how he ended up surviving FE11's prologue.

Second is Rickard, and Kris's quirks take a prominent role in this one, as it involve Rickard helping out with cooking. I will note that Rickard also has a support with Julian.

Third is Luke, and Kris's quirks take a prominent role in this one, and Luke decides to join Kris in their training regiment. I will note that Luke also has a support with Rody.

Fourth is Cord, and it centers around Cord. Its all about how he differentiates himself from Bord, and their camaraderie/rivalry. I will note that Cord also has a support with Bord.

Fifth is Wendell, and its all about Lord Gotoh, and Wendell almost worship like reverence of him.

Sixth was Katarina, and while Kris's quirks are a minor part of it, it focuses on Katarina, and her relationship with Kris, as well as Clarisse. It should be noted that Katarina also has a support with Cecille.

Seventh is Malicia, and its all about Malicia's delusions. It should be noted that Malicia also has a support with Caeda.

Eighth is Matthis, and while Kris's quirks play a minor part in it, it focuses on Matthis, and his worries about his sister.

Ninth is Sedgar, and its all about the habits he had to form with weapon maintenance as him and Wolf were constantly class changing, and changing the weapons they needed to have ready and wield on the fly. It should be noted that Sedgar also has a support with Holf

Last but not least is Darros, and the support is all about Darros, how he became naturally accustom to mundane cleaning tasks, and the strange tale of how he accidentally became a priate.

From this only 2 of the 10 really center around Kris's quirks, and both of those characters have supports with other characters to compensate.

 

9 hours ago, Seazas said:

Kris does not deserve credit for a support system, something existed before Kris and it wasn't even well done in FE12 since 80% of Archanea's cast is still unpopular and forgotten (Rip Darros).

If FE12 had actually released internationally, then perhaps people would have the opportunity to learn about and like the Archanea cast. As it is most people only have the severely lacking FE11 to rely on, unless they are Japanese, or hardcore fans willing to pirate and patch the game.

 

9 hours ago, Seazas said:

 

It's significantly worse, Corrin and Byleth aren't forced in an established story. Fates and Three Houses actually account for them and their place in the world. They have a more interesting backstory. Can't say the same for Kris since they come out of a nowhere village and becomes Marth's closest confidant instantly. Byleth and Corrin aren't flawless (nor good) but they would've been a LOT worse if they pushed in a remake.

Kris has a backstory, and we even play through part of it in the prologue. Kris was raised in the village of Sera by their grandfather, Sir Maclir, whom was a knight of Altea that fought alongside Jagen in their mutual youths until severe injuries forced Maclir into an early retirement. Kris's grandfather trained Kris from a young age to become a knight, and instilled them with the ideals of a knight, and when Marth called for the training of new knights of Altea, Kris volunteered for the training, and excelled, drawing the attention of more senior knights, like Jagen. After going beyond the normal bounds of training by repelling a bandit attack on a local village, they garnered enough attention that Jagen suggested Marth make them a members of the new royal guard that was being prepared for Marth. Kris would connect with the young lord over a chance meeting at the graves of those lost in the war of Shadows, which is cemented even further when Kris saves Marth's life, while following the prince's ideal, from a group of assassin that managed to neutralize the fully fledged knights with subterfuge. The friendship between Kris and Marth doesn't come from nothing, it builds throughout the game.

 

11 hours ago, Seazas said:

Imagine Ike having a super secret best friend that pops in out of nowhere and takes some of the achievements Ike does in the originals. That would be shit and it's exactly what happens with Marth.

I doubt that would have ruined Ike more than he already was in Radiant Dawn. Ike doesn't have an arc left in Radiant Dawn, and just statically stinks up the place as a beef-caked caricature of what he once was, repeating arcs he already had in half-hearted ways. Meanwhile Marth has an arc in both of his game, that changes between them, with a new internal problem that flows naturally from his growth in the first game, and Kris is not taking away from that.

[Seazas]

On 3/18/2021 at 5:27 AM, Jotari said:

And Marth still makes the tactical decision. Kris just presents the infromation to him.

Marth is significantly less competent since he can't even know information about his own damn country, Kris has to make significant maneuvers like that because Kris is perfect and good at everything.

Fuck that noise.

On 3/18/2021 at 11:08 AM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Got any kind of source for that Malledus retirement, for I am certain neither pf FE11 or FE12 mentions that. He is just gone without explanation, and Jagen has stolen his place...

 

It makes less sense than Kris becoming an advisor. Jagen wasn't an advisor before, we don't see him interested, or involved in the discussions between Marth and Malledus in Shadow Dragon, or practice his skills as an advisor. Meanwhile we do see Kris being an active observer of the discussions between Jagen and Marth, learning from Jagen before transitioning into an advisor in his own right. The only thing that makes Jagen special is that he is a competent and loyal soldier of Altea, just like Kris is, and he is no more special than Kris is. If Kris is some nobody, so is Jagen.

 

If Heroes wanted this to explicitly be a Shadow Dragon version of Marth & Elice they could have indicated that with his game of origin. As for Abel, if his treachery were as great as you act Marth wouldn't have risked his life trying to talk to his friend on the battle field. As for the lack of Kris mention, Heroes has always been kinda weird about Kris because his appearance, gender, and existence are dependent on the player and version of the game.

Don't know where your strange notions about Elice's character comes from, but she has always been about helping Marth in ways he wouldn't want, but still needs. From the very beginning when she lies to his face and puts herself in danger to protect him, and into FE12 where she tells Kris an uncomfortable truth about Marth in hopes of helping the prince, and even into this strange FEH appearance, where she forces Marth outside his comfort zone to buy gifts for Caeda that will strength their relationship.

 

And without Kris there would have been even less supports than there are, and that is the point I am making. Having a single bland character they can shove into one side of the support makes it easier for them to pump those supports out, and that was added to a list of supports between other characters, which already outnumbered the number of supports they had to make for Echoes. Plus this notion about most of them centering around Kris's gimmick doesn't holds much water. To test this I used a random number generator to decide on 9 support to look through, and added Darros in as well due to you mentioning him.

  Reveal hidden contents

First is Frey, and it centers around him, why he became an instructor, and about those same qualities leading to him becoming the decoy for Marth, and how he ended up surviving FE11's prologue.

Second is Rickard, and Kris's quirks take a prominent role in this one, as it involve Rickard helping out with cooking. I will note that Rickard also has a support with Julian.

Third is Luke, and Kris's quirks take a prominent role in this one, and Luke decides to join Kris in their training regiment. I will note that Luke also has a support with Rody.

Fourth is Cord, and it centers around Cord. Its all about how he differentiates himself from Bord, and their camaraderie/rivalry. I will note that Cord also has a support with Bord.

Fifth is Wendell, and its all about Lord Gotoh, and Wendell almost worship like reverence of him.

Sixth was Katarina, and while Kris's quirks are a minor part of it, it focuses on Katarina, and her relationship with Kris, as well as Clarisse. It should be noted that Katarina also has a support with Cecille.

Seventh is Malicia, and its all about Malicia's delusions. It should be noted that Malicia also has a support with Caeda.

Eighth is Matthis, and while Kris's quirks play a minor part in it, it focuses on Matthis, and his worries about his sister.

Ninth is Sedgar, and its all about the habits he had to form with weapon maintenance as him and Wolf were constantly class changing, and changing the weapons they needed to have ready and wield on the fly. It should be noted that Sedgar also has a support with Holf

Last but not least is Darros, and the support is all about Darros, how he became naturally accustom to mundane cleaning tasks, and the strange tale of how he accidentally became a priate.

From this only 2 of the 10 really center around Kris's quirks, and both of those characters have supports with other characters to compensate.

 

If FE12 had actually released internationally, then perhaps people would have the opportunity to learn about and like the Archanea cast. As it is most people only have the severely lacking FE11 to rely on, unless they are Japanese, or hardcore fans willing to pirate and patch the game.

 

Kris has a backstory, and we even play through part of it in the prologue. Kris was raised in the village of Sera by their grandfather, Sir Maclir, whom was a knight of Altea that fought alongside Jagen in their mutual youths until severe injuries forced Maclir into an early retirement. Kris's grandfather trained Kris from a young age to become a knight, and instilled them with the ideals of a knight, and when Marth called for the training of new knights of Altea, Kris volunteered for the training, and excelled, drawing the attention of more senior knights, like Jagen. After going beyond the normal bounds of training by repelling a bandit attack on a local village, they garnered enough attention that Jagen suggested Marth make them a members of the new royal guard that was being prepared for Marth. Kris would connect with the young lord over a chance meeting at the graves of those lost in the war of Shadows, which is cemented even further when Kris saves Marth's life, while following the prince's ideal, from a group of assassin that managed to neutralize the fully fledged knights with subterfuge. The friendship between Kris and Marth doesn't come from nothing, it builds throughout the game.

 

I doubt that would have ruined Ike more than he already was in Radiant Dawn. Ike doesn't have an arc left in Radiant Dawn, and just statically stinks up the place as a beef-caked caricature of what he once was, repeating arcs he already had in half-hearted ways. Meanwhile Marth has an arc in both of his game, that changes between them, with a new internal problem that flows naturally from his growth in the first game, and Kris is not taking away from that.

Imagine badly needing to defend Kris that bad that you try and dismiss Jagen, a war hero with experience in strategy and battle, to try and compare it to Kris. Jagen has actively been apart of battle to justify him ever being an advisor since he's seen more than Kris ever has. Also yes, Malledus is confirmed to have fell ill in Mystery of the Emblem, so he wasn't just replaced out of nowhere, nice try. Jagen is also actively apart of Marth's life and apart of battles and wars. Kris is a nobody from a village, to compare the two is asinine.

It seems to be based off the original Mystery. Either extremely early on or at the end of Shadow Dragon. The game of origin saying that they come from FE3 not FE12. And guess what? Elice doesn't talk about Marth being weak nor does it remotely imply that it's taken from the ending of the game. You have to make up headcanons to try and claim something like that. Elice instead praises him as she should than putting him down in front of people she doesn't know for the sake of it.

Difference between bringing him out of his comfort zone and dismissing his growth in front of a stranger purely because Kris is special. Your notion is complete nonsense because you badly want to make Kris look good. Elice does not hesitate to be honest with Marth, like how she was in their conversation, she had no need to randomly dismiss Marth in front of a stranger when Elice could state her worries in ways that make sense for her character. Like saying such matters to her brother in private. The devs just needed to bloat Kris' importance as much as they could. When Elice is bringing Marth out of his comfort zone, she doesn't randomly turn to the Summoner or some bullshit and say "my brother surely has trouble making decisions huh? He should buy a gift for Caeda already!" or some crap. Instead Elice tactfully urges Marth to get the gift in a conversation between them and them alone. A shame Elice couldn't do the same in FE12, nope, she has to discredit Marth to place Kris on a pedestal.

Nope, the supports could've went to other characters than just be erased. You do not know what they would've done if Kris didn't exist and trying to credit a character for the decision of developers is absurd. Castor's for example focus on licking Kris' boots "lemme pledge to you Kris since you're so awesome and special" than trying to make Castor interesting. Could've explored Caeda and Castor's dynamic for example. Castor had more interesting stuff in a random Kaga backstory blurb than an entire support conversation.

Ah yes. "This super secret soldier friend of Jagen's that we never hear about until it's forced in FE12!" Doesn't even expand Jagen's character either, he's the exact same in personality and story. I don't care for the shitty backstory who's dedicated writing could've went to other characters. It's tacked on and not nearly as thought through as Corrin's and Byleth's. The rest of the stuff you mentioned about Kris "getting the attention of others" isn't backstory, that's events of the game. Kris is one soldier out of many and Marth putting him on a pedestal instead of treating them normally like he does with Cain, Abel, and countless others who were strong and proved themselves is trash. Your essay on that failed to convince me otherwise.

Kris takes away from it by existing in a story they don't belong in. Kris blatantly feels forced in scenes and literally turned established moments into Kris-fests. The retreat against Hardin did not need to turn into a scene about how awesome and great Kris is. Marth never placed anyone on a pedestal as much as he had with Kris, not even Caeda. It's trash.

On 3/18/2021 at 10:37 AM, Vicious Sal said:

And you're both arguing past one another. You're stuck on the decision. Seazas doesn't like more than that, which you're ignoring.

It's the fact that Marth is not only making decisions, he's grown and has become a capable mind who is able to deduce, strategise and pivot in heated scenario's. Chris takes everything from Marth except the decision. And that's why Chris is disliked by Seazas. (At least partly, there may be more reasons.)

You're correct, there's several more reasons but I hate how Kris makes Marth a lesser character. They twisted his character around for the sake of making Kris a "soulmate" only because they're an avatar.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

And you're both arguing past one another. You're stuck on the decision. Seazas doesn't like more than that, which you're ignoring.

It's the fact that Marth is not only making decisions, he's grown and has become a capable mind who is able to deduce, strategise and pivot in heated scenario's. Chris takes everything from Marth except the decision. And that's why Chris is disliked by Seazas. (At least partly, there may be more reasons.)

I don't think we're arguing over each other. Seazas doesn't like that Marth's tactical ability has been removed. And in my opinion it's not just that Marth makes the decision, he displays the tactical awareness of his army's strength to know why it's the right decision. So saying Marth doesn't display any tactical ability because he is not the one to introduce the path, I think, is a false statement.

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

Marth is significantly less competent since he can't even know information about his own damn country, Kris has to make significant maneuvers like that because Kris is perfect and good at everything.

Fuck that noise.

 

Archanea isn't Marth's country.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Jotari

[Eltosian Kadath]

24 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Imagine being so desperate to defend Kris that you try and dismiss Jagen, a war hero with experience in strategy and battle, to try and compare it to Kris. Jagen has actively been apart of battle to justify him ever being an advisor since he's seen more than Kris ever has. Also yes, Malledus is confirmed to have fell ill in Mystery of the Emblem, so he wasn't just replaced out of nowhere, nice try. Jagen is also actively apart of Marth's life and apart of battles and wars. Kris is a nobody from a village, to compare the two shows how blinded you are.

And you are so blinded by your desperate attempt to put down Kris that you put Jagen on a pedestal and invent whole cloth the idea that Jagen has been the one devising strategies before his rise to advisor. Jagen is merely an old knight like many other, and Kris is merely a young knight, and his position as advisor is just as arbitrary, except that they actually bothered to setup the idea that Kris is learning how to devise strategies.

 

37 minutes ago, Seazas said:

 

Excuses, it seems to be based off the original Mystery. Either extremely early on or at the end of Shadow Dragon. The game of origin saying that they come from FE3 not FE12. And guess what? Elice doesn't talk about Marth being weak nor does it remotely imply that it's taken from the ending of the game. You have to make up headcanons to try and claim something like that. Elice instead praises him as he should than putting him down for the sake of it. 

And you have just as much speculation and head canon built up into your wild guess about when this FEH character is supposed to come from. I have always said Elice said what she did for a purpose, not to put Marth down, but to give someone she thought could help him insight into what Marth needs. Your presvious insistance that Elice's entire canon character is that she can only droolingly praise Marth is utterly baffling.

 

43 minutes ago, Seazas said:

 

Difference between bringing him out of his comfort zone and dismissing his growth in front of a stranger purely because Kris is special.

She wasn't dismissing his growth, at all, she is pointing out the weakness at the core of Marth's character arc for the game.

 

50 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Your notion is complete nonsense because you're desperate to make Kris look good. Elice does not hesitate to be honest with Marth, like how she was in their conversation, she had no need to randomly dismiss Marth in front of a stranger when Elice could state her worries in ways that make sense for her character. Like saying such matters to her brother in private. The devs just needed to bloat Kris' importance as much as they could. When Elice is bringing Marth out of his comfort zone, she doesn't randomly turn to the Summoner or some bullshit and say "my brother surely has trouble making decisions huh? He should buy a gift for Caeda already!" or some crap. Instead Elice tactfully urges Marth to get the gift in a conversation between them and them alone. A shame Elice couldn't do the same in FE12, nope, she has to discredit Marth to place Kris on a pedestal.

Sorry that you dislike the concept of a character arc where characters grow and overcome personal problems over the course of a story. Shame Elice didn't quietly take Marth aside at the start of Shadow Dragon to magically solve all of his personal problems privately before they could appear in the story, as is apparently in character for her.

Sarcasm aside I still feel that it is in character for Elice to do everything she can to help Marth even if that would make him uncomfortable. If you can't undertand that idea, or are unable to imagine that complicated personal problems aren't solved overnight with a quiet personal chat, than remain in ignorance.

 

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

 

Nope, the supports could've went to other characters than just be erased. You do not know what they would've done if Kris didn't exist and trying to credit a character for the decision of developers is absurd.

Sorry that the concept of limited resources escapes you.

 

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Castor's for example focus on licking Kris' boots "lemme pledge to you Kris since you're so awesome and special" than trying to make Castor interesting. Could've explored Caeda and Castor's dynamic for example. Castor had more interesting stuff in a random Kaga backstory blurb than an entire support conversation.

Did you bother to read Castor's support? The whole thing is about Castor conning Kris out of money, Kris naively suggesting things that would get Castor caught as way of repayment, and Castor then trying to then find a way out of it.

 

56 minutes ago, Seazas said:

I don't care for the shitty backstory

You repeatedly described Kris as a nobody, from some nowhere village, all I was doing was describing who they were, and where they came from. You first commented me due to me describing Kris as unfairly maligned, and things like this is why they are.

Continue to unfairly malign Kris, as that is what you are doing.

 

[Baldrick]

46 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's not just that Marth makes the descion though, he displays the tactical awareness of his army's strength to know why it's the right decision.

Archanea isn't Marth's country. And I wouldn't call looking at the map a significant maneuver. Actually traveling there is the signiciant maneuver, which was Marth's decision.

On that note, I think it would be logical for somebody from Archanea (such as George or Nyna) to make the suggestion of using the pass. There’s no reason why Marth and Kris have to hog all the dialogue.

Anyway, Castor’s support conversation was a missed opportunity because it doesn’t develop Kris at all. He could have had the same talk with Caeda, or bounced off another less naive character, to flesh out both characters. And this is why Kris is worse than Mark, who can literally not exist without the story changing at all.

[Jotari]

58 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

On that note, I think it would be logical for somebody from Archanea (such as George or Nyna) to make the suggestion of using the pass. There’s no reason why Marth and Kris have to hog all the dialogue.

Anyway, Castor’s support conversation was a missed opportunity because it doesn’t develop Kris at all. He could have had the same talk with Caeda, or bounced off another less naive character, to flesh out both characters. And this is why Kris is worse than Mark, who can literally not exist without the story changing at all.

I agree, it would be nice if they used more of the cast, but that they didn't is not Kris's fault imo. They didn't elevate any other minor character to major speaking role in Shadow Dragon. It's just the Malladeus and Nyna show, just like Roy's Merlinus and Guinevere show. He's not Archanean, but they could have used Frost with little issue, since you recruit him anyway at that point in the game (so the standard what if they're dead restriction for minor characters wouldn't affect him). Would have made his recruitment feel more significant. Not a huge fan of how Mystery of the Emblem keeps giving you units between maps who just show up out of nowhere.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Jotari

[Seazas]

10 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

And you are so blinded by your desperate attempt to put down Kris that you put Jagen on a pedestal and invent whole cloth the idea that Jagen has been the one devising strategies before his rise to advisor. Jagen is merely an old knight like many other, and Kris is merely a young knight, and his position as advisor is just as arbitrary, except that they actually bothered to setup the idea that Kris is learning how to devise strategies.

 

And you have just as much speculation and head canon built up into your wild guess about when this FEH character is supposed to come from. I have always said Elice said what she did for a purpose, not to put Marth down, but to give someone she thought could help him insight into what Marth needs. Your presvious insistance that Elice's entire canon character is that she can only droolingly praise Marth is utterly baffling.

 

She wasn't dismissing his growth, at all, she is pointing out the weakness at the core of Marth's character arc for the game.

 

Sorry that you dislike the concept of a character arc where characters grow and overcome personal problems over the course of a story. Shame Elice didn't quietly take Marth aside at the start of Shadow Dragon to magically solve all of his personal problems privately before they could appear in the story, as is apparently in character for her.

Sarcasm aside I still feel that it is in character for Elice to do everything she can to help Marth even if that would make him uncomfortable. If you can't undertand that idea, or are unable to imagine that complicated personal problems aren't solved overnight with a quiet personal chat, than remain in ignorance.

 

Sorry that the concept of limited resources escapes you.

 

Did you bother to read Castor's support? The whole thing is about Castor conning Kris out of money, Kris naively suggesting things that would get Castor caught as way of repayment, and Castor then trying to then find a way out of it.

 

You repeatedly described Kris as a nobody, from some nowhere village, all I was doing was describing who they were, and where they came from. You first commented me due to me describing Kris as unfairly maligned, and things like this is why they are.

Continue to unfairly malign Kris, as that is what you are doing.

 

Nope, unlike you, I'm not blind enough to compare a different character. Jagen isn't put on a pedestal, he's in a perfect spot since he's not inflated nor elevated more than he always has. It's actually reasonable unlike Marth putting someone he barely knew as a soulmate only because they're an avatar. Marth treats Jagen similar to everyone else in a lot of ways, Marth doesn't do the same with Kris. Jagen serves Marth, Marth acknowledges Jagen but doesn't put him on a pedestal (like Kris), and their dynamic never really evolves much in FE3. Only sticking to the concept of "liege and loyal knight". Last time I checked, Jagen wasn't retconned to be given credit for the retreat against Hardin like a CERTAIN avatar does, lmao. You have got to be fucking kidding me to compare the two.

It's baffling how you're so delusional that you made up Elice and Marth's canon placement with no actual proof. And nope, nice bad attempt at making up shit, Elice acknowledges Marth's growth and speaks her opinions to him directly when needed, she never turned to random strangers to say how she felt for Marth. It's not just "drooling and praising" like you're trying to claim I said. 

She was dismissing his growth, Elice never brings it up nor gives Marth any credit in FE12. Instead directing praise and concerns to Kris. It could've been a great character moment for Marth and Elice to have a dedicated scene to discuss about that themselves but nooo... give it to the avatar to elevate their forced importance. Elice should've said all of this shit and her concerns to her brother's face alone than telling someone she doesn't know about her personal experiences with/about Marth. She never did this in any game nor did she do it in Heroes despite Kiran being an avatar too.

Nice disingenuous sarcasm, Marth had such an arc in Shadow Dragon with Elice directly acknowledging how much he's grown in that same fucking game. If FE12 is continuing that arc, then they should've handled it tactfully and let Marth speak for himself more often than shoving an unrelated avatar in his scenes. Also, keep pushing your own personal interpretation as fact, really furthers some things I said. Elice has shown to go to Marth herself about this shit, which she does in Heroes too. She goes as far as to take matters to her own hands if she must (lying in Shadow Dragon for Marth's safety). Her not speaking about it to her brother immediately (like she always has), instead turning to a stranger is some of the worst Archanea writing I've ever seen and you've failed to convince me otherwise.

Limited resources is a trash excuse, they shouldn't have devoted over half of those limited resources to the damn avatar when Archanea's cast desperately needed more care. Too bad Maeda cares more about self inserts and waifus than good writing. The support didn't give Castor much of anything that we didn't already have of him. It's bland as shit and removed a good opportunity of exploring WHY Castor cons for money and the inherent issues/conflict of doing that, surely would've been more interesting than licking Kris' boots only to reveal he's conning the avatar. 

Your input is inherently biased toward Kris so I'm given less and less reason to take what you say seriously. Instead of arguing for Kris' own merits you straight up tried to put other characters like Jagen down. You tried to compare an established character who was written seamlessly in the original games to the forced avatar inclusion. It's insane seeing some people act so rashly that they resort to shitting on Archanea's cast as a means for making Kris look good. "Ohh!!!11 Well what about JAGEN!?" "The Archanea cast didn't have much character anyway!" Kris' backstory is nothing special and less memorable + thought through than Byleth and Corrin's. Giving the latter two avatars more interesting stuff by default. "Secret knight that was Jagen's BEST FRIEND has been training a child and said child wants to help out". Very special, very cool, very out of place.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Seazas

[Eltosian Kadath]

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

Nope, unlike you, I'm not blind enough to compare a different character.

Quote

On 3/16/2021 at 12:33 AM, Seazas said:

Kris' hate is the natural result of their poorly handled inclusion. It's like making someone as unengaging (for some people) and controversial as Conrad steal the show and constantly be forced into scenes that aren't about them. Imagine Alm and Celica's personal lord moments but with Conrad forced in every single scene. Along with retconning cool characters like Mae and Kliff to randomly be Conrad's best friend and ignore Boey + others. That is essentially what happens with Kris. 

On 3/16/2021 at 9:35 AM, Seazas said:

. Kris also gets a cast worshipping them, but Byleth and Corrin don't have the case of someone's entire character being to worship the avatar like Norne is unfortunately stuck as.

On 3/16/2021 at 12:04 PM, Seazas said:

Characters like Gordin and Draug dedicated a lot of effort and time for Archanea (they were there since the beginning) and you don't see Marth putting them on a pedestal. He treats people like Cain with an appropriate amount of respect but he doesn't declare anyone his "soulmate" like he did with Kris. That is literally just garbage writing to pander to the player. 

On 3/17/2021 at 10:49 PM, Seazas said:

Imagine Ike having a super secret best friend that pops in out of nowhere and takes some of the achievements Ike does in the originals. That would be shit and it's exactly what happens with Marth.

 

 

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

Jagen isn't put on a pedestal, he's in a perfect spot since he's not inflated nor elevated more than he always has. It's actually reasonable unlike Marth putting someone he barely knew as a soulmate only because they're an avatar.

If you cared enough about what you were talking about to actually bother playing or reading it, you might notice that the soulmate line you like to harp on about happens at the end of the entire game. Marth had an entire game to get to know Kris before uttering it.

 

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

Marth treats Jagen similar to everyone else in a lot of ways,

Then why isn't Cain, Frey, or Gaggles one of Marth's advisors? Its only the extra special Jagen, and Kris that get that high honor.

 

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

 

It's baffling how you're so delusional that you made up Elice and Marth's canon placement with no actual proof.

Quote

17 hours ago, Seazas said:

 

It seems to be based off the original Mystery. Either extremely early on or at the end of Shadow Dragon.

 

 

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

 

Nice disingenuous sarcasm, Marth had such an arc in Shadow Dragon with Elice directly acknowledging how much he's grown in that same fucking game.

Sorry about that, I thought you were using either blatant bad faith, or disingenuous sarcasm before, but now I  think it is simple ignorance about FE11's story. Marth's arc in FE11 is about something entirely different than Marth's arc in FE12. FE11 Marth's arc is all about him letting go of his anger, grief, and vengeance they bore, and replacing them with justice, so he can unite the world with that noble goal. The game is fairly explicit about that, starting with him

Quote

"shake with anger and grief"

as he is exiled. Latter he sees the injustice of his vengeance and grows because of it

Quote

 

Marth:
“Today, there was this commoner… She mentioned Grust was divided about the war. Some of its people wanted to fight with Altea, she said…Ever since I lost my father and kingdom, I’ve held nothing but hate in my heart for Gra and Grust…but not once did I give any thought to what must have been going on in their heads.”

Nyna:
“And now you find your hate for them has been lessened?”

Marth:
“No… the hate remains. I will never forget the pain they inflicted upon me, the rage I felt. Yet now, at least, I can tell you it’s not just hate…Not anymore.”

 Even FEH backs this up with the Hero-King Marth explicitly talking about this arc in his lv 40 conversation:

Quote

Ever since people began referring to me as Hero-King, I've been pondering the true meaning of justice. Victory births the defeated, and the defeated vow vengeance through clenched teeth. This means history is forever doomed to repeat itself. My father struck down, my country seized... I, too, have seen losses, so I can empathize. After fleeing to safety, I swore to restore my homeland with the help of my comrades. It was Nyna who entrusted me with the Fire Emblem...and it strengthened my resolve to fight on. I no longer fought for vengeance... I fought for the people. I found victory only because I had first found so many allies who shared my new sense of justice. They lent me their strength, and we fought as one. And now, I have come to believe that you share that same sense of justice. Let us continue to fight as one, [Summoner]

Marth grew in FE11, but his arc in FE12 is about something entirely different, the injustice he feels when people credit the entire war to his heroism, and his desire to protect all of his allies, despite the impossibility of that task. Elice isn't dismissing Marth's growth, she is looking at the ways he still can grow, and trying to encourage that growth.

 

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

Also, keep pushing your own personal interpretation as fact, really furthers some things I said.

Quote

On 3/16/2021 at 8:49 AM, Seazas said:

Maeda literally had Elice act out of her canon character to put Kris on a pedestal.

 

Honestly I could keep going with quotes showing you doing exactly what you condemn me for here, but this one is the most relevant to the topic being quoted, and I think I have made my point about the hypocrisy of your high horse arguments with the first quote cluster.

 

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

 

Limited resources is a trash excuse, they shouldn't have devoted over half of those limited resources to the damn avatar when Archanea's cast desperately needed more care.

15 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Sorry that the concept of limited resources escapes you.

 

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

The support didn't give Castor much of anything that we didn't already have of him. It's bland as shit and removed a good opportunity of exploring WHY Castor cons for money and the inherent issues/conflict of doing that, surely would've been more interesting than licking Kris' boots only to reveal he's conning the avatar. 

This is simply inaccurate. That support is where the game really spells out to the player of either FE11 or FE12 that Castor is a con artist prior to the ending. If you want some evidence for this I point you towards Alastor's review of the series, where he went through FE11 and FE12 blind while taking meticulous notes, and was suprised by Castor's title of Sly Swindler, because that support is where they really give you that information. Plus learning that Castor likes money wouldn't be as interesting as you imply.

 

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

 

Your input is inherently biased toward Kris so I'm given less and less reason to take what you say seriously. Instead of arguing for Kris' own merits you straight up tried to put other characters like Jagen down. You tried to compare an established character who was written seamlessly in the original games to the forced avatar inclusion. It's insane seeing some people act so rashly that they resort to shitting on Archanea's cast as a means for making Kris look good. "Ohh!!!11 Well what about JAGEN!?" "The Archanea cast didn't have much character anyway!" Kris' backstory is nothing special and less memorable + thought through than Byleth and Corrin's. Giving the latter two avatars more interesting stuff by default. "Secret knight that was Jagen's BEST FRIEND has been training a child and said child wants to help out". Very special, very cool, very out of place.

My argument is that Kris is just as bad as the rest of them, and even helped by making it easier to pump out supports so the whole cast got at least one support to their name. The problems you see with Kris, are just as present in other characters, and your own bias makes you ignore those issues in others, and highlight them in Kris.

[Seazas]

13 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

 

If you cared enough about what you were talking about to actually bother playing or reading it, you might notice that the soulmate line you like to harp on about happens at the end of the entire game. Marth had an entire game to get to know Kris before uttering it.

 

Then why isn't Cain, Frey, or Gaggles one of Marth's advisors? Its only the extra special Jagen, and Kris that get that high honor.

 

 

Sorry about that, I thought you were using either blatant bad faith, or disingenuous sarcasm before, but now I  think it is simple ignorance about FE11's story. Marth's arc in FE11 is about something entirely different than Marth's arc in FE12. FE11 Marth's arc is all about him letting go of his anger, grief, and vengeance they bore, and replacing them with justice, so he can unite the world with that noble goal. The game is fairly explicit about that, starting with him

as he is exiled. Latter he sees the injustice of his vengeance and grows because of it

 Even FEH backs this up with the Hero-King Marth explicitly talking about this arc in his lv 40 conversation:

Marth grew in FE11, but his arc in FE12 is about something entirely different, the injustice he feels when people credit the entire war to his heroism, and his desire to protect all of his allies, despite the impossibility of that task. Elice isn't dismissing Marth's growth, she is looking at the ways he still can grow, and trying to encourage that growth.

 

Honestly I could keep going with quotes showing you doing exactly what you condemn me for here, but this one is the most relevant to the topic being quoted, and I think I have made my point about the hypocrisy of your high horse arguments with the first quote cluster.

 

 

This is simply inaccurate. That support is where the game really spells out to the player of either FE11 or FE12 that Castor is a con artist prior to the ending. If you want some evidence for this I point you towards Alastor's review of the series, where he went through FE11 and FE12 blind while taking meticulous notes, and was suprised by Castor's title of Sly Swindler, because that support is where they really give you that information. Plus learning that Castor likes money wouldn't be as interesting as you imply.

 

My argument is that Kris is just as bad as the rest of them, and even helped by making it easier to pump out supports so the whole cast got at least one support to their name. The problems you see with Kris, are just as present in other characters, and your own bias makes you ignore those issues in others, and highlight them in Kris.

I'm not dragging down other characters like you are though. I made a hypothetical so quoting the Conrad thing is silly. You randomly tried to drag down Jegan despite him not being shoved in an established narrative: my biggest peeve with Kris. Nor does Jegan turn a lot of good scenes to be about him like what Kris does. Entire game or no, Marth doesn't do this shit with anyone, he never even has a dedicated scene of calling CAEDA his soulmate. It's forced bullshit that Kris only got it because they're an avatar and needed constant sucking up since Maeda sucks at writing stuff. 

It's both actually, Marth actively grows as a person and in capability in FE11. It's literally acknowledged by Elice saying how much he's grown, and it's further shown by Marth having to bear the fact that it falls on his shoulders to get his kingdom back. Marth had to improve in combat and learn, which is what he does.

Elice can do that while being consistent, it is INCONSISTENT having Elice turn to a stranger to voice her words. If it was supposed to be consistent, Elice wouldn't go to the random avatar and instead talk to her brother who was nearby. Reinforce Marth to keep safe and not leave his bodyguard's side or some shit, all while being the supportive big sister she's known to be by placing some faith in him. Acknowledging that he's matured and capable of making it through this crisis; all while having Marth acknowledge that he still has more growth to do. It's exactly what Heroes does, by far being more true to Elice. Her having some faith in her bro is what she does in every other depiction. That faith is not there in FE12 by calling him a weak child and expressing such worries to the random fucking avatar than one on one talking with her sibling. It's infuriating. They could've went in a multitude of different directions to provide a powerful scene of Elice and Marth, especially when they're all they have left within their family. But nooo, suck on Kris some more that's what we REALLY need, clearly. >_>

Frey wasn't found until recently since he was made the decoy. Cain and Gordin were handling other things and happen to soldiers. Jagen worked just fine with the advisor role, especially when he isn't able to fight as good as he used to. So him sitting out and merely advising makes sense. It makes perfect sense for the old man to do that, Kris should've been given the "soldier" treatment and not randomly butt in shit. Kris didn't need to be as featured in the story. 

Castor has a sick backstory thing that was stated by Kaga once that could've been used, instead he got handed a mediocre repetitive support chain. FE12 was handed a ton more opportunities than SOV (Echoes has 10x less supports and had the burden of trying to make every single blank state character have a personality) and it fumbled on making the majority of the cast interesting. All because it was too busy trying to circlejerk Kris. FE12 had the capability to do it, they gave Luke a lot more character so clearly it's not off the table. There's no excuse for them lazing out as much as they did with FE12. They couldn't even give DRAUG more backstory and character.

The issues aren't nearly as problematic, I never said Byleth and Corrin were good. Simply, they are better for not pushing into an established story and making a competent lord worse. Byleth and Corrin have more interesting placements in the world, abilities, and weapons too. That's my view on it that you've failed to debunk.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

On 3/19/2021 at 7:47 PM, Seazas said:

Nope, unlike you, I'm not blind enough to compare a different character. Jagen isn't put on a pedestal, he's in a perfect spot since he's not inflated nor elevated more than he always has. It's actually reasonable unlike Marth putting someone he barely knew as a soulmate only because they're an avatar. Marth treats Jagen similar to everyone else in a lot of ways, Marth doesn't do the same with Kris. Jagen serves Marth, Marth acknowledges Jagen but doesn't put him on a pedestal (like Kris), and their dynamic never really evolves much in FE3. Only sticking to the concept of "liege and loyal knight". Last time I checked, Jagen wasn't retconned to be given credit for the retreat against Hardin like a CERTAIN avatar does, lmao. You have got to be fucking kidding me to compare the two.

It's baffling how you're so delusional that you made up Elice and Marth's canon placement with no actual proof. And nope, nice bad attempt at making up shit, Elice acknowledges Marth's growth and speaks her opinions to him directly when needed, she never turned to random strangers to say how she felt for Marth. It's not just "drooling and praising" like you're trying to claim I said. 

She was dismissing his growth, Elice never brings it up nor gives Marth any credit in FE12. Instead directing praise and concerns to Kris. It could've been a great character moment for Marth and Elice to have a dedicated scene to discuss about that themselves but nooo... give it to the avatar to elevate their forced importance. Elice should've said all of this shit and her concerns to her brother's face alone than telling someone she doesn't know about her personal experiences with/about Marth. She never did this in any game nor did she do it in Heroes despite Kiran being an avatar too.

Nice disingenuous sarcasm, Marth had such an arc in Shadow Dragon with Elice directly acknowledging how much he's grown in that same fucking game. If FE12 is continuing that arc, then they should've handled it tactfully and let Marth speak for himself more often than shoving an unrelated avatar in his scenes. Also, keep pushing your own personal interpretation as fact, really furthers some things I said. Elice has shown to go to Marth herself about this shit, which she does in Heroes too. She goes as far as to take matters to her own hands if she must (lying in Shadow Dragon for Marth's safety). Her not speaking about it to her brother immediately (like she always has), instead turning to a stranger is some of the worst Archanea writing I've ever seen and you've failed to convince me otherwise.

Limited resources is a trash excuse, they shouldn't have devoted over half of those limited resources to the damn avatar when Archanea's cast desperately needed more care. Too bad Maeda cares more about self inserts and waifus than good writing. The support didn't give Castor much of anything that we didn't already have of him. It's bland as shit and removed a good opportunity of exploring WHY Castor cons for money and the inherent issues/conflict of doing that, surely would've been more interesting than licking Kris' boots only to reveal he's conning the avatar. 

Your input is inherently biased toward Kris so I'm given less and less reason to take what you say seriously. Instead of arguing for Kris' own merits you straight up tried to put other characters like Jagen down. You tried to compare an established character who was written seamlessly in the original games to the forced avatar inclusion. It's insane seeing some people act so rashly that they resort to shitting on Archanea's cast as a means for making Kris look good. "Ohh!!!11 Well what about JAGEN!?" "The Archanea cast didn't have much character anyway!" Kris' backstory is nothing special and less memorable + thought through than Byleth and Corrin's. Giving the latter two avatars more interesting stuff by default. "Secret knight that was Jagen's BEST FRIEND has been training a child and said child wants to help out". Very special, very cool, very out of place.

 

Out of curiosity, how would you feel about Kris if we had a conversation like this in the original game

 

Quote

Marth: Everyone, don't let your guard down. The Wolf Guard is heading our way. Knights to the front; mages fall back. Fortify our defenses. Disperse the enemies and pick them off one by one!

And it was changed to this in New Mystery

Quote

 

Jagen: Prince Marth! Our scouts have spied the Wolf Guard up ahead!

Marth: …… …Then the battle begins here.

Kris: So it seems. The fights ahead will be nothing like our previous battles. You’ve wounded Hardin’s pride, and he will strike back without mercy. But the spirit of Altea demands we prevail. There’s no turning back now.

Marth: I know.

 

Would you blame Kris for Marth’s lack of tactical ability in this scenario?