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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

 

 

Out of curiosity, how would you feel about Kris if we had a conversation like this in the original game

 

 

 

 

 

And it was changed to this in New Mystery

 

 

 

Would you blame Kris for Marth’s lack of tactical ability in this scenario?

 

 

 

Blame FE12 and further my dislike toward Kris since they'd rather make Kris look godlike while making Marth less and less competent.

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7 hours ago, Seazas said:

Blame FE12 and further my dislike toward Kris since they'd rather make Kris look godlike while making Marth less and less competent.

See I thought you'd say that. Because I didn't just invent those dialogues. They actually come from Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia respectively. Specifically during the Northern Zofia battle at the start of part 3 for Alm. I just changed the names.

Quote

Alm:       Everyone, don't let your guard down. A large brigade from Rigel is
           heading our way.
           Knights to the front; mages fall back. Fortify our defenses.
           Disperse the enemies and pick them off one by one!


 

Quote

 

Ally Soldier: Sir Alm! Our scouts have spied Rigelian forces up ahead!

Alm: …… …Then the battle begins here.

Lukas: So it seems. The fights ahead will be nothing like our skirmishes in the south. You’ve wounded Rigel’s pride, and they will strike back without mercy. But the spirit of Zofia demands you prevail. There’s no turning back now.

Alm: I know.

 

 

So you see, a remake can absolutely change a character with or without an avatar. And I personally have far more issue with how they changed Alm in Shadows of Valentia compared to Marth in either Shadow Dragon or New Mystery (where I don't really think he's been changed much at all). In this scene in question it turns from Alm giving orders and directing the army to Alm basically saying nothing and Lukas getting the limelight by hyping the fight. The following scenes of the chapter then focus on Clive and our new character Fernand. I don't blame Clive, Fernand or Lukas for Alm's reduced role and change in characterisation though. I blame Shadows of Valentia as a whole. But blaming Alm's reduced display of capabilities here on Lukas is just projection. They easily could have both Lukas's dialogue and Alm's original dialogue, it's not a zero sum game, they just chose not to.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Jotari said:

See I thought you'd say that. Because I didn't just invent those dialogues. They actually come from Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia respectively. Specifically during the Northern Zofia battle at the start of part 3 for Alm. I just changed the names.

Damn, you really just laid a Mine in here. If @Seazas says anything more, I'll have to assume that you're the one controlling him.

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10 hours ago, Jotari said:

See I thought you'd say that. Because I didn't just invent those dialogues. They actually come from Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia respectively. Specifically during the Northern Zofia battle at the start of part 3 for Alm. I just changed the names.


 

 

So you see, a remake can absolutely change a character with or without an avatar. And I personally have far more issue with how they changed Alm in Shadows of Valentia compared to Marth in either Shadow Dragon or New Mystery (where I don't really think he's been changed much at all). In this scene in question it turns from Alm giving orders and directing the army to Alm basically saying nothing and Lukas getting the limelight by hyping the fight. The following scenes of the chapter then focus on Clive and our new character Fernand. I don't blame Clive, Fernand or Lukas for Alm's reduced role and change in characterisation though. I blame Shadows of Valentia as a whole. But blaming Alm's reduced display of capabilities here on Lukas is just projection. They easily could have both Lukas's dialogue and Alm's original dialogue, it's not a zero sum game, they just chose not to.

 

 

Alm has a lot more competent moments and increased characterization, he actually gets his competency furthered since his character shine and shit drastically increase. Like how he says to Lukas what he's learned from Mycen. Alm at least doesn't get his shine taken by a random avatar like Marth does. Alm is given all sorts of new scenes and effort while Marth doesn't get shit but a rehashed FE3 script but with Kris forced in to have Marth act weird and dependent on Kris. Gaiden barely gave Alm anything in comparison to Echoes, Alm objectively has more there while Marth only got less. Marth had more fresh character in Shadow Dragon than New Mystery.

Alm giving some spotlight to established characters who needed it is way more excusable if Marth did the same. But he didn't, Kris came in out of nowhere and randomly gets put on a pedestal just because they're a player character. No other characters get any shine to make Marth having "less" spotlight be a lot more justifiable.

Alm "getting a reduced role" never happens in Echoes, Alm gets new moment after new moment. From successfully convincing Clive with his actions and words to the brand new Alm and Celica reunion by Halcyon that never happened in Gaiden. There's Alm's brand new foil and rivalry with Berkut, Alm's enjoyable banter with Gray + Tobin, Alm getting actual dynamics with characters while Marth has been static (thanks the FE12 pool only giving Kris more than 3 supports while everyone else was lucky to have 2), a full scene of Alm's reaction to Rudolf's reveal, the countless speeches that heightened Alm's passion and character, the amazing scene of Mycen and Alm at the end of Act 1, the humorous exploration dialogue, the dedicated cutscenes of Alm showing his battle capabilities, etc etc.

To say his role has been reduced when he has double if not triple the story scenes than Gaiden is a false equivalency. 

Last time I checked, there was no Echoes equivalent of a well done established scene turning into an avatar circlejerk (Hardin retreat).

Seriously Jotari, your logic makes no sense and seems like a bad attempt at a "gotcha" moment when Echoes handled its cast far better than FE12's. Hell, the nobles versus commoners theme has been confirmed to exist to flesh out the world. Which it did while giving characters such as Lukas, Forsyth and Python significantly more achievements.

9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Damn, you really just laid a Mine in here. If @Seazas says anything more, I'll have to assume that you're the one controlling him.

No lol.

Edited by Seazas
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3 hours ago, Seazas said:

Alm has a lot more competent moments and increased characterization, he actually gets his competency furthered since his character shine and shit drastically increase. Like how he says to Lukas what he's learned from Mycen. Alm at least doesn't get his shine taken by a random avatar like Marth does. Alm is given all sorts of new scenes and effort while Marth doesn't get shit but a rehashed FE3 script but with Kris forced in to have Marth act weird and dependent on Kris. Gaiden barely gave Alm anything in comparison to Echoes, Alm objectively has more there while Marth only got less. Marth had more fresh character in Shadow Dragon than New Mystery.

Alm giving some spotlight to established characters who needed it is way more excusable if Marth did the same. But he didn't, Kris came in out of nowhere and randomly gets put on a pedestal just because they're a player character. No other characters get any shine to make Marth having "less" spotlight be a lot more justifiable.

Alm "getting a reduced role" never happens in Echoes, Alm gets new moment after new moment. From successfully convincing Clive with his actions and words to the brand new Alm and Celica reunion by Halcyon that never happened in Gaiden. There's Alm's brand new foil and rivalry with Berkut, Alm's enjoyable banter with Gray + Tobin, Alm getting actual dynamics with characters while Marth has been static (thanks the FE12 pool only giving Kris more than 3 supports while everyone else was lucky to have 2), a full scene of Alm's reaction to Rudolf's reveal, the countless speeches that heightened Alm's passion and character, the amazing scene of Mycen and Alm at the end of Act 1, the humorous exploration dialogue, the dedicated cutscenes of Alm showing his battle capabilities, etc etc.

To say his role has been reduced when he has double if not triple the story scenes than Gaiden is a false equivalency. 

Last time I checked, there was no Echoes equivalent of a well done established scene turning into an avatar circlejerk (Hardin retreat).

Seriously Jotari, your logic makes no sense and seems like a bad attempt at a "gotcha" moment when Echoes handled its cast far better than FE12's. Hell, the nobles versus commoners theme has been confirmed to exist to flesh out the world. Which it did while giving characters such as Lukas, Forsyth and Python significantly more achievements.

No lol.

All I'm reading there is that it's okay for Shadows of Valentia to do literally the exact same thing, but if New Mystery does it then everything is inherently Kris's fault because avatar.

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40 minutes ago, Jotari said:

All I'm reading there is that it's okay for Shadows of Valentia to do literally the exact same thing, but if New Mystery does it then everything is inherently Kris's fault because avatar.

Then you can't understand what I'm saying. Alm isn't putting some random nobody on a pedestal and Alm is a completely separate character with a different kind of journey from Marth too so this equivalency is inherently flawed.

Also, there is no forced Kris bullshit in FE15 so...

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8 hours ago, Seazas said:

Then you can't understand what I'm saying. Alm isn't putting some random nobody on a pedestal and Alm is a completely separate character with a different kind of journey from Marth too so this equivalency is inherently flawed.

Also, there is no forced Kris bullshit in FE15 so...

I understand completely. You're completely bias and projecting. The scene in question is fine in Shadows of Valentia, but if it were used in New Mystery then suddenly it'd be a problem for you.

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11 hours ago, Jotari said:

I understand completely. You're completely bias and projecting. The scene in question is fine in Shadows of Valentia, but if it were used in New Mystery then suddenly it'd be a problem for you.

Depends on how it's handled, buddy. If it was any other character that had experience in that particular field or just wasn't Kris, I'd have less of a problem. Especially if Marth gets the Alm treatment and gets a boatload of fantastic new scenes and not having an avatar drag him down.

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29 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Depends on how it's handled, buddy. If it was any other character that had experience in that particular field or just wasn't Kris, I'd have less of a problem. Especially if Marth gets the Alm treatment and gets a boatload of fantastic new scenes and not having an avatar drag him down.

Exactly. You have a bias against Kris, because they're an avatar. If they'd decided to promote say Luke into the role written for Kris instead of creating a new character then you wouldn't have a problem at all even if all the dialogue was the same, because like Clive, Luke existed in Old Mystery and thus deserved to become a spotlight character where a new characters doesn't deserve to have any significant focus while old characters exist. In your view.

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Exactly. You have a bias against Kris, because they're an avatar. If they'd decided to promote say Luke into the role written for Kris instead of creating a new character then you wouldn't have a problem at all even if all the dialogue was the same, because like Clive, Luke existed in Old Mystery and thus deserved to become a spotlight character where a new characters doesn't deserve to have any significant focus while old characters exist. In your view.

Nahhh, I'd definitely have a problem since Kris' role is inherently shit. It's what screwed Kris over massively from being potentially good. They were forced in a pre-existing story that worked better without them. I wouldn't wish that on any character even on ones I dislike the most. Kris' position is a major reason why I hate that avatar the most. Being an avatar isn't enough for me to hate the character since I don't really mind Robin at this point.

Edited by Seazas
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8 hours ago, Seazas said:

Nahhh, I'd definitely have a problem since Kris' role is inherently shit. It's what screwed Kris over massively from being potentially good. They were forced in a pre-existing story that worked better without them. I wouldn't wish that on any character even on ones I dislike the most. Kris' position is a major reason why I hate that avatar the most. Being an avatar isn't enough for me to hate the character since I don't really mind Robin at this point.

Yes, it's like I said, being an avatar in a pre-existing story. I don't think you'd have nearly as much a problem with Luke doing all the stuff Kris does because Like existed in old mystery, even though he had virtually no dialogue.

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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes, it's like I said, being an avatar in a pre-existing story. I don't think you'd have nearly as much a problem with Luke doing all the stuff Kris does because Like existed in old mystery, even though he had virtually no dialogue.

I literally told you that I would, especially if Luke is oddly placed in the story like Kris is. Moreso if Marth randomly places this one guy on a pedestal and his "soulmate", that was so friggin bad.

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On 3/19/2021 at 12:05 PM, Jotari said:

I agree, it would be nice if they used more of the cast, but that they didn't is not Kris's fault imo. They didn't elevate any other minor character to major speaking role in Shadow Dragon.

But they could have, and they did in Shadows of Valentia. Several characters shared the spotlight in SoV, whereas Kris took a disproportionate amount of the new dialogue. I have no doubt that it's due to them being an avatar character, so I do blame them.

Edited by Baldrick
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29 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

But they could have, and they did in Shadows of Valentia. Several characters shared the spotlight in SoV, whereas Kris took a disproportionate amount of the new dialogue. I have no doubt that it's due to them being an avatar character, so I do blame them.

I don't see any specific reason to blame Kris for that. Like I said before, is it Gray and Tobin's fault Kliff didn't become a story character? It's not like New Mystery is filled to the brim with dialogue, it's actually still pretty minimalist, elevating another character or two (preferably Zeke and Shiida I think) would have been entirely possible. They just chose not to. I think if there had been no Kris, then New Mystery would have been exactly like Shadow Dragon (ie no new story characters at all) and not Shadows of Valentia.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I don't see any specific reason to blame Kris for that. Like I said before, is it Gray and Tobin's fault Kliff didn't become a story character? It's not like New Mystery is filled to the brim with dialogue, it's actually still pretty minimalist, elevating another character or two (preferably Zeke and Shiida I think) would have been entirely possible. They just chose not to. I think if there had been no Kris, then New Mystery would have been exactly like Shadow Dragon (ie no new story characters at all) and not Shadows of Valentia.

Gray and Tobin don't disproportionately take the story nor hog established Gaiden moments. New Mystery has actual supports and purposefully listened to Shadow Dragon's criticism. No Kris would've made a better game.

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1 minute ago, Seazas said:

Gray and Tobin don't disproportionately take the story nor hog established Gaiden moments. New Mystery has actual supports and purposefully listened to Shadow Dragon's criticism. No Kris would've made a better game.

No Kris would have made the game Shadow Dragon. We know that because Shadow Dragon already exists without any Grays or Tobins.

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5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

No Kris would have made the game Shadow Dragon. We know that because Shadow Dragon already exists without any Grays or Tobins.

So you're crediting Kris for a fucking support system that existed before New Mystery? That's objectively wrong, there's already an hours worth of supports without Kris, the game could've went without Kris and prioritize other shit. Saying it would just be Shadow Dragon is a lie as it was criticized for lack of supports and other things that New Mystery tried to fix.

New Mystery would 100% be better without that shit avatar. New Mystery would've had supports with or without Kris, to say otherwise is asinine.

Edited by Seazas
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5 minutes ago, Seazas said:

So you're crediting Kris for a fucking support system that existed before New Mystery? That's objectively wrong, there's already an hours worth of supports without Kris, the game could've went without Kris and prioritize other shit. Saying it would just be Shadow Dragon is a lie as it was criticized for lack of supports and other things that New Mystery tried to fix.

New Mystery would 100% be better without that shit avatar. New Mystery would've had supports with or without Kris, to say otherwise is asinine.

I never said New Mystery wouldn't have had supports without Kris. I said it wouldn't have any other characters playing a role in the story without Kris. I didn't mention supports at all.

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I never said New Mystery wouldn't have had supports without Kris. I said it wouldn't have any other characters playing a role in the story without Kris. I didn't mention supports at all.

Trying to claim New Mystery "would just be Shadow Dragon" and nothing else implies a lot.

Still, would rather have another Shadow Dragon in that case since Marth was incredible in the DS remake and now there's supports dedicated to the entire cast than Kris hogging them again.

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7 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Trying to claim New Mystery "would just be Shadow Dragon" and nothing else implies a lot.

Still, would rather have another Shadow Dragon in that case since Marth was incredible in the DS remake and now there's supports dedicated to the entire cast than Kris hogging them again.

If they cared to they could have made more supports for the other characters to. Every game since has managed to have the avatar have four supports with every character in the game while the other characters still have full support options (some would even say too many). If we didn't have games released since showing it's absolutely possible to have Avatar supporting everyone + everyone supporting everyone, I'd see that argument as having merit, but Robin, Corrin and Byleth prove otherwise. They just didn't care enough to do so. In other words it's once again New Mystery's fault, not Kris's. Blaming Kris is just projection. You have no proof that without Kris there'd be a tonne more supports and Shiida would be a major character and Marth would be a super badass. It's much more likely given when it was developed, that it would be exactly like the previous game. New Mystery simply isn't the game that you want it to be, and you're projecting all that blame onto the new thing they did add to it instead of just seeing the game for what it is, a remake in the era of Shadow Dragon that was far more concerned with making compelling gameplay than fleshing out Archanea's story and characters.

Edited by Jotari
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11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If they cared to they could have made more supports for the other characters to. Every game since has managed to have the avatar have four supports with every character in the game while the other characters still have full support options (some would even say too many). If we didn't have games released since showing it's absolutely possible to have Avatar supporting everyone + everyone supporting everyone, I'd see that argument as having merit, but Robin, Corrin and Byleth prove otherwise. They just didn't care enough to do so. In other words it's once again New Mystery's fault, not Kris's. Blaming Kris is just projection. You have no proof that without Kris there'd be a tonne more supports and Shiida would be a major character and Marth would be a super badass. It's much more likely given when it was developed, that it would be exactly like the previous game. New Mystery simply isn't the game that you want it to be, and you're projecting all that blame onto the new thing they did add to it instead of just seeing the game for what it is, a remake in the era of Shadow Dragon that was far more concerned with making compelling gameplay than fleshing out Archanea's story and characters.

As another user said: limited resources exist. Assuming they never cared is just that: an assumption when they cared enough to try and write them at all, they could've easily lazed out and not bother with any non-Kris supports. They went as far as to write a support between Reiden + Roberto and Caesar + Radd, and they're fairly unpopular. Those other games had bigger budgets and weren't remakes so the comparison doesn't hold up.

Without Kris, there would be no needless avatar worship in an established story so that's already a plus for me. And your desperate attempts at "DEFLECTION DEFLECTION" is meaningless to me, Kris' role and character was poor and forced, they did not fit in New Mystery and would've been better in any other game. I love how you try and complain to me about "projecting" when you stuff words in my mouth, not once have I said for Caeda to be a major character or Marth being "a super badass" he wasn't one in Shadow Dragon, just a really enjoyable character. Way to prove yourself to be a hypocrite though for doing what you accused me of doing.

Edited by Seazas
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15 minutes ago, Seazas said:

As another user said: limited resources exist. Assuming they never cared is just that: an assumption when they cared enough to try and write them at all, they could've easily lazed out and not bother with any non-Kris supports. They went as far as to write a support between Reiden + Roberto and Caesar + Radd, and they're fairly unpopular. Those other games had bigger budgets and weren't remakes so the comparison doesn't hold up.

Limited resources exists, but it's not something that plagued New Mystery. They were basically scrambling for enough content to make it into a full game considering they were remaking only Book 2, which was half a game to begin with. They absolutely didn't need to include every single character cut from Book 2, and every archanea saga character and all of the Shadow Dragon Gaiden characters and every single character that was unrecruitable in the original game (which IMO takes away part of the tragedy from the game) and bloody Michalis on top of it. We probably could have got a lot more supports if they didn't decide the game needed over seventy playable characters. I think that was a far bigger reason than Kris.

Quote

Without Kris, there would be no needless avatar so that's already a plus for me. And your desperate attempts at "DEFLECTION DEFLECTION" is meaningless to me, Kris' role and character was poor and forced, they did not fit in New Mystery and would've been better in any other game.

You can dislike Kris as a character. That's absolutely fine, no one has a mandate to like them. I just think blaming them for all dissatisfaction with New Mystery is projection rather than focusing on what Kris does and doesn't add to the game.

Edited by Jotari
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5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Limited resources exists, but it's not something that plagued New Mystery. They were basically scrambling for enough content to make it into a full game considering they were remaking only Book 2, which was half a game to begin with. They absolutely didn't need to include every single character cut from Book 2, and every archanea saga and all of the Shadow Dragon Gaiden characters and every single character that was unrecruitable in the original game (which IMO takes away part of the tragedy from the game) and bloody Michalis on top of it. We probably could have got a lot more supports if they didn't decide the game needed over seventy playable characters. I think that was a far bigger reason than Kris.

You can dislike Kris as a character. That's absolutely fine, no one has a mandate to like them. I just think blaming them for all dissatisfaction with New Mystery is projection rather than focusing on what Kris does and doesn't add to the game.

Yes it most definitely is. Remakes are low budget in comparison to mainline games, and this was back when FE was in a decline mind you. But still, they absolutely didn't need to force that big of a cast bloat, part of many problems with FE12, including Kris. Just removing Kris would make things slightly better.

Not saying everything wrong with New Mystery is at fault of Kris. Kris' role in the story however was fucking garbage and the writers pushing so much on Kris furthers my dislike toward that avatar. They were a mistake.

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3 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Yes it most definitely is. Remakes are low budget in comparison to mainline games, and this was back when FE was in a decline mind you. But still, they absolutely didn't need to force that big of a cast bloat, part of many problems with FE12, including Kris. Just removing Kris would make things slightly better.

Not saying everything wrong with New Mystery is at fault of Kris. Kris' role in the story however was fucking garbage and the writers pushing so much on Kris furthers my dislike toward that avatar. They were a mistake.

When I give you an example of another game doing literally the exact same thing as New Mystery only changing the names, and your reaction is to blame Kris for it, yeah, it really does seem like you're projecting. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree from here though, as since that moment you've proven that you have no capacity for self awareness about your biases.

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27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

When I give you an example of another game doing literally the exact same thing as New Mystery only changing the names, and your reaction is to blame Kris for it, yeah, it really does seem like you're projecting. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree from here though, as since that moment you've proven that you have no capacity for self awareness about your biases.

There is no avatar taking an established char's credit in Echoes. Alm's character and situation being far different as he isn't a skilled war veteran like Marth is. When this scene carryover is a result of Kris' forced avatar worshippy role to the point of making Marth worse, yes I blame Kris. And you've proven to be a massive hypocrite as you complained about my projections only to shove words for my mouth. Like randomly bringing up Marth being a badass and Caeda being more important when I never said that, at all.

Kris was not a good addition and if you have to resort to "well not everything is Kris' fault!" while trying to give positives to Kris for things they didn't cause in the same breath, that gives me less reason to take your points on this topic seriously. You straight up resorted to trying to critique FE12 as a whole and missed some of my points out of assumption. I'm out here giving FE12 a lot of shit too, not just Kris.

Edited by Seazas
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