Best Avatar

[eclipse]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

 

I wonder should an "I hate Avatars" option be added just to separate the people who genuinely like the practically non existent Mark and those who vote for him because...well because he is practically non existent.

I didn't do a very good job of explaining myself, so I'll do so here.

If some random person was plopped into an equally random medieval army, I'm pretty sure said person would wind up as cannon fodder.  And if that character is a representation of me, then that's exactly what I want to see - someone who can observe the events, but otherwise doesn't influence where the story goes.  Mark gives the characters a bit of extra exposition, if they exist.  But if they don't, then the overall story remains the same.

[Fabulously Olivier]

The best is Robin, as it genuinely feels like they are an existing character that just happens to be customizable.

 

The worst is Corrin, because they feel like an unnecessary and inauthentic appendage on the game (not unlike the Corrin route - Revelations as a whole). Azura shares basically their exact same story and is an actual character. She was robbed.

[Account Deleted]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

You know the opposite will definitely occur. Mark will instead be given a customizable appearance and a class with OP stats and will be able to S support everyone in the game. Even Pent and Louise (at the same time, they'll have to try and pander to the polyamorus base at some point).

I know because people will expect them to actually do something with Mark, and if they want my opinion (they probably don't) they should cut him out and focus more on Lyn and give her a bigger presence during the later game. But I think that they won't mess with Pent and Louise, having them actually married is quite a unique thing for FE, which is really weird when you think about it. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by That's So Raven

[Sunwoo]

I don't really like any of them as avatars. FE in general has done nothing but make me more certain than before that IS can't make good avatars in this game series. They always have too much backstory (aside from Mark and Kiran) and at least half of them shoehorn you into being tactician, claiming you're a brilliant strategist, when most of the fanbase IRL couldn't strategize their way out of a paper bag.

It's also pretty jarring to see how much praise and trust the avatar often gets by doing ... well, nothing really. Byleth was bad about this, they're supposed to have no emotions (or personality) but somehow everyone jumps on the professor train and they're so influential that students you've recruited will follow you no matter what in spite of their homelands or other close friends and the side you pick is always the winner. But the others aren't great either, Robin gets praised a lot more for his job than other canon strategists like Oifey and Soren were. Corrin's in charge of the army despite having no experience and yet everyone's cool with this and praises them for the most nonsensical things. (Looking at you, Ryoma, and Corrin's "kingly abilities" at 4.)

That said, if I try to look at these guys as characters and not avatars, I guess Robin is the one I like the most. They have enough personality to qualify as an actual character and the male and female versions have a lot of different supports that highlight the differences between them. The praise that they get as tactician is more warranted than what Corrin or Kiran or Mark get because Robin does smart(ish) things on screen we can actually see. And they're not in a remake taking up space and stealing lines from other characters, like Kris.

[Sidereal Wraith]

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's time for Kris's come back story. Time to dispel the idea that the entire fan base despises them.

I for one don’t think Kris inclusion in NMoE was an affront. However, in terms of Avatars I do like Robin the most out of all of them.

[Account Deleted]

2 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

It's also pretty jarring to see how much praise and trust the avatar often gets by doing ... well, nothing really.

True. Traditional RPGs often have you starting out small and slow, building your power and reputation and eventually reaching some position of authority (NWN2 is a good example of this).

Fire Emblem doesn't have that luxury as it would drag the plot and gameplay down way too much and because of that I honestly have no idea why they insist on having you be some unknown random amnesiac who always knows next to nothing about the place they have lived in their entire lives. Kris was a step in the right direction as they have an actual place of origin, the village of Sera, clear motivation for joining the Altean Knights, their grandfather, and an actual goal which is up to the player. Kris as Marth's bodyguard is a decent idea, shame how it turned out. As for the tactician thing it doesn't really work with the amnesiac who knows nothing about the world, why would you put the fate of yourself and your army in the hands of such a person, its downright weird, a good example of a tactician would be Soren who is very well informed, knowledgeable and most important of all, pragmatic. The teacher angle also doesn't work when students spend more time teaching Byleth about the world, than they do them, plus same reasons I gave for tactician.

Edited March 7, 2021 by That's So Raven

[Stones]

I honestly think Mark is the worst because he adds NOTHING to the game, he only makes it worse. At least the others have something interesting about them in the gameplay, and they sometimes do cool things in the story other than saying “aren’t I just the cleverest” from time to time. There’s no point to him. My next least favourite is Kris, again because there’s no real reason they should exist, but they do add some things, like supports or the assassin subplot (neither of which I think are any good, but still). Generally they are just there to be annoying. 

I can see why people prefer that to ones like Robin or Corrin but if an avatar is going to exist, it should be important, rather than being bad just for the sake of it. Also Byleth isn’t really an avatar, unless you think someone like Link, or a Pokemon protagonist is an avatar. All of those are just player characters (this is partially why I dislike Byleth the least, although I’ve not played Awakening).

[Samz707]

19 minutes ago, Stones said:

I honestly think Mark is the worst because he adds NOTHING to the game, he only makes it worse. At least the others have something interesting about them in the gameplay, and they sometimes do cool things in the story other than saying “aren’t I just the cleverest” from time to time. There’s no point to him. My next least favourite is Kris, again because there’s no real reason they should exist, but they do add some things, like supports or the assassin subplot (neither of which I think are any good, but still). Generally they are just there to be annoying. 

I can see why people prefer that to ones like Robin or Corrin but if an avatar is going to exist, it should be important, rather than being bad just for the sake of it. Also Byleth isn’t really an avatar, unless you think someone like Link, or a Pokemon protagonist is an avatar. All of those are just player characters (this is partially why I dislike Byleth the least, although I’ve not played Awakening).

Robin being playable only contributed to Avatar worship with them literally being one of the best units in the game.

An tactician Avatar like Mark doesn't need dumb "Look how cool the player is." Cut scenes (which have been universally terrible IMO) Mark's already being a cool tactician by just giving orders in the gameplay and being responsible for those victories.

I don't feel like my character is a Tactician due to anime cut scenes with absurd gambit pulled out of the writer's ass like Awakening does or a really bad fight scene like Fates/3H, I feel like a tactician when the actual gameplay forces me to think about my moves and employ actual tactics to win.

I want to feel through the gameplay my character can lead an army, not because the cut scenes claim I can.

Commandos and Command and Conquer had the PC be an unseen commander type character, Mark is essentially that but with a little bit of interaction with the characters and that's what fits for a strategy game for me.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Samz707

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Stones said:

I honestly think Mark is the worst because he adds NOTHING to the game, he only makes it worse. At least the others have something interesting about them in the gameplay, and they sometimes do cool things in the story other than saying “aren’t I just the cleverest” from time to time. There’s no point to him. My next least favourite is Kris, again because there’s no real reason they should exist, but they do add some things, like supports or the assassin subplot (neither of which I think are any good, but still). Generally they are just there to be annoying. 

I can see why people prefer that to ones like Robin or Corrin but if an avatar is going to exist, it should be important, rather than being bad just for the sake of it. Also Byleth isn’t really an avatar, unless you think someone like Link, or a Pokemon protagonist is an avatar. All of those are just player characters (this is partially why I dislike Byleth the least, although I’ve not played Awakening).

Link, no, not really. Not in an absolute sense, he is silent precisely for the reason to create more of a connection to the player, and even his name is allegedly for that purpose, but Link is still a defined character of Link (or should I say multiple defined characters named Link). Pokemon protagonists on the other hand, yeah, I actually think you could quite easily call them avatars. It's not like they exude any real personality of their own. Especially in the later games where you can customize their appearance.

[Stones]

1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

An tactician Avatar like Mark doesn't need dumb "Look how cool the player is." Cut scenes (which have been universally terrible IMO)

But he gets those scenes anyway.

After Chapter 1:

Lyn:
“That’s the last of them! Fantastic work, Mark!”

After Chapter 7 if you say no to going to 7x:

Lyn:
“I understand. That is the logical decision. If it had been up to me, I’d have ridden off and put us all in great danger. I’m glad you’re here to calm me down. Thank you. Let’s get moving! To Caelin!”

After Chapter 10:

Lyn:
“Mark… you’re leaving, aren’t you? No, I’m not asking you to stay. It’s just… I’ll miss you. When I found you unconscious on the plains… I had no idea we would be together for so long. You’ve helped us so much, and I’m sure you’ve learned all you can from us. You’ll do just fine on your own. I have the utmost faith that you’ll be a master tactician, Mark. That’s from someone who’s seen you at work!”

1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

Mark's already being a cool tactician by just giving orders in the gameplay and being responsible for those victories.

When you say victories, do you mean like beating Lyn Mode? Because Lyn Mode isn't very strategically complex. Even the main game isn't all that mentally strenuous, certainly not on Eliwood Normal Mode like you have to do on your first playthrough.

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Link, no, not really. Not in an absolute sense, he is silent precisely for the reason to create more of a connection to the player, and even his name is allegedly for that purpose, but Link is still a defined character of Link (or should I say multiple defined characters named Link). Pokemon protagonists on the other hand, yeah, I actually think you could quite easily call them avatars. It's not like they exude any real personality of their own. Especially in the later games where you can customize their appearance.

Yeah, that's what I mean. I wouldn't call any of those characters avatars, and I wouldn't call Byleth one either. To me they are player characters.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

26 minutes ago, Stones said:

When you say victories, do you mean like beating Lyn Mode? Because Lyn Mode isn't very strategically complex. Even the main game isn't all that mentally strenuous, certainly not on Eliwood Normal Mode like you have to do on your first playthrough.

I'm pretty sure Chapter 8 is a literal Vortex of Strategy, though. How will you possibly overcome the ballistae and reaver weapons, unless you bring the biggest brain possible into battle?

30 minutes ago, Stones said:

But he gets those scenes anyway.

After Chapter 1:

Lyn:
“That’s the last of them! Fantastic work, Mark!”

After Chapter 7 if you say no to going to 7x:

Lyn:
“I understand. That is the logical decision. If it had been up to me, I’d have ridden off and put us all in great danger. I’m glad you’re here to calm me down. Thank you. Let’s get moving! To Caelin!”

After Chapter 10:

Lyn:
“Mark… you’re leaving, aren’t you? No, I’m not asking you to stay. It’s just… I’ll miss you. When I found you unconscious on the plains… I had no idea we would be together for so long. You’ve helped us so much, and I’m sure you’ve learned all you can from us. You’ll do just fine on your own. I have the utmost faith that you’ll be a master tactician, Mark. That’s from someone who’s seen you at work!”

Looking back to this, I'll be shocked if the eventual FE7 remake doesn't give Mark the option to S-rank Lyn. It's not something I want, but it seems inevitable. 

[Jotari]

36 minutes ago, Stones said:

Yeah, that's what I mean. I wouldn't call any of those characters avatars, and I wouldn't call Byleth one either. To me they are player characters.

Uh...did you read the second half of my comment? Because I said I absolutely would consider Pokemon Protagonists avatars.

[Eltosian Kadath]

5 hours ago, That's So Raven said:

I know because people will expect them to actually do something with Mark, and if they want my opinion (they probably don't) they should cut him out and focus more on Lyn and give her a bigger presence during the later game. But I think that they won't mess with Pent and Louise, having them actually married is quite a unique thing for FE, which is really weird when you think about it. 

Its not all that rare, many of the games have at least one married pair in them. I guess they have become less common in modern FE. I think I will try to list them, but I suspect I will miss some, and its a topic that can easily be branched out with various technicalities...

For the married playable pairs, FE3/12 has Est and Abel; FE4 has Quan and Ethlyn; FE5 has Glade and Selphina; FE6 has Zelot and Juno, as well as Astolfo and Igrene (although its complicated...); FE7 has Pent and Louise (of course); and FE9 has Calil and Largo.

If we expand our search to fiances as well, Clive and Mathilda are fiances in FE2/14; and Isadora and Harken are fiance in FE7.

If we include characters with spouses that aren't playable, we can add Alois, whom starts married in FE 16, the FE10 version of Calil (as Largo was cut from FE10, but is still seen alive and married), Canas has an off screen wife in FE7 (he talks about her in the Canas-Nino support), and Dorcas is married to the NPC Natalie in FE7.

If we expand to widowed characters FE6 has Bartre was married to Karla before her death, FE5 has Galzus whose wife died (and he fathered a daughter with her), FE7 has Hawkeye who is a widower (its talked about in his Louise support...), and Gunter from FE14

I could keep expanding this to characters described as lovers but I am feeling a bit lazy (although Astram and Midia; Merric and Elise; Lena and Julan; Anna and Jake; Ena and Raijaion; Tatiana and Zeke all immediately come to mind, and I am certain there are far more...) or non-playable characters that are married (Eldigan and Ghranye; Blume and Hilda; come to mind, and I know for a fact this list could be expanded a LOT ), or those presumed married due to the presence of children/grandchildren (Niime, Dayan, and Douglas come to mind)

[Stones]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Uh...did you read the second half of my comment? Because I said I absolutely would consider Pokemon Protagonists avatars.

What I meant was that I personally wouldn't consider them avatars, and therefore I personally don't consider Byleth an avatar. I can see that I was unclear though, sorry for that.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I'm gonna go with Mark in the purest literal sense of being an "avatar." Robin, Corrin, and Kris all probably shouldn't even be "avatars" in the first place with how much of their own characters they are, and Byleth's appearance isn't customizable and breaks the "avatar" feel. Mark's appearance isn't customizable either, true, but he/she isn't seen at all so you can imagine whatever the heck you want. In my opinion, Mark succeeds the most in being the truest, and therefore best, "avatar."

[Account Deleted]

8 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Its not all that rare, many of the games have at least one married pair in them. I guess they have become less common in modern FE. I think I will try to list them, but I suspect I will miss some, and its a topic that can easily be branched out with various technicalities...

You are right, also I didn't include lovers because it was married characters both playable but your point stands. Though I personally wasn't considering anyone who can be S or A ranked in a romantic way. Astolofo and Igrene doesn't really count (as you said its complicated) Isadora and Harken is not set in stone. Saizo and Kagero had some sort of relationship before the start of the game. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by That's So Raven

[Samz707]

10 hours ago, Stones said:

But he gets those scenes anyway.

After Chapter 1:

Lyn:
“That’s the last of them! Fantastic work, Mark!”

After Chapter 7 if you say no to going to 7x:

Lyn:
“I understand. That is the logical decision. If it had been up to me, I’d have ridden off and put us all in great danger. I’m glad you’re here to calm me down. Thank you. Let’s get moving! To Caelin!”

After Chapter 10:

Lyn:
“Mark… you’re leaving, aren’t you? No, I’m not asking you to stay. It’s just… I’ll miss you. When I found you unconscious on the plains… I had no idea we would be together for so long. You’ve helped us so much, and I’m sure you’ve learned all you can from us. You’ll do just fine on your own. I have the utmost faith that you’ll be a master tactician, Mark. That’s from someone who’s seen you at work!”

When you say victories, do you mean like beating Lyn Mode? Because Lyn Mode isn't very strategically complex. Even the main game isn't all that mentally strenuous, certainly not on Eliwood Normal Mode like you have to do on your first playthrough.

Yeah, that's what I mean. I wouldn't call any of those characters avatars, and I wouldn't call Byleth one either. To me they are player characters.

I thought by cutscenes you were referring to how Byleth/Corrin get really bad anime fight scenes that are ment to be cool but don't really work out, trying to "Show" how badass the Avatars are in cutscenes. (Rather than just them getting praised.)

Almost all of the praise in FE7 feels appropriate and even then Mark overall gets praised significantly less than the others, it almost always feels like it comes after an appropriately large battle rather than 3H, which has several supports that basically just consist of the character telling Byleth how cool/trustworthy they are and that's the entire support, yes it's corny at times in 7 but still far better than the later Avatars in my experience.

It's still way more complex than Awakening, which declares Robin a tactician after a single chapter somehow more basic than the first map of Shadow Dragon and the blade of light with this. " But holy wow, Robin! You were incredible! Swords, sorcery, AND tactics! Is there anything you can't do?"  and the rest of the game constantly praises Robin.

While in 7, You actually get to capture and use Ballistas, knock down trees/rescue fliers to cross rivers and other strategic elements before Mark leads Eliwood's army. (as well as the game quite simply not sucking up to the player constantly.)

8 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I'm gonna go with Mark in the purest literal sense of being an "avatar." Robin, Corrin, and Kris all probably shouldn't even be "avatars" in the first place with how much of their own characters they are, and Byleth's appearance isn't customizable and breaks the "avatar" feel. Mark's appearance isn't customizable either, true, but he/she isn't seen at all so you can imagine whatever the heck you want. In my opinion, Mark succeeds the most in being the truest, and therefore best, "avatar."

Mark does have a sprite though, so we can tell they're white and have brown hair. (as well as seeing their hair in some of the cutscene art.)

That said, I value being able to actually choose how my character/acts speak more than appearance, it's why I (very reluctantly since they're still pretty bad) consider Byleth a better Avatar than Robin, Robin's only thing it feels like you can choose about them is who they S-rank, while Byleth has dialogue choices, often ignored/not consistently available dialogue choices that still end up being worse than how FE7 just vaguely implies what Mark is saying (Since the quality of Byleth's choices are all over the place.) but it's still more avatar-y to me and there are at least a few moments where even if it does snap back onto the "Intended" path it at least feels different enough, such as Ferdinand's C-support, sure it ends the same way but it's actually written in a way where it doesn't feel incredibly obvious that you were intended to pick the other option, it feels natural regardless of whenever or not you claimed they were equally matched or flat-out told him he was worse.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Samz707

[Stones]

35 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

thought by cutscenes you were referring to how Byleth/Corrin get really bad anime fight scenes that are ment to be cool but don't really work out, trying to "Show" how badass the Avatars are in cutscenes. (Rather than just them getting praised.)

That doesn't have very much to do with the actual avatars, it's more that they are important characters so cutscenes often feature them. Like Ike and Micaiah get cutscenes, but the only difference between theirs and Corrin/Byleth is that the second pair are avatars, there's no real difference between the actual animated cutscenes. Regarding the quality, that's really just a matter of opinion and again is not really related to the avatars, they just have them in it, if that makes sense.

40 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Almost all of the praise in FE7 feels appropriate and even then Mark overall gets praised significantly less than the others, it almost always feels like it comes after an appropriately large battle

I very much disagree. Two of the examples I gave were of Ch 1 and Ch 7, both of which are pretty small battles, and very easy. Even Ch 10 isn't that important. You could argue that the praise is appropriate if you go quick and have Florina break the snag and everything, A) but you can go fast in Awakening and 3H, and B) you get the "you're so smart mark" regardless of whether you go fast or take the full 15 turns you need to get the gaiden. In late Lyn Mode the game also incentivises going slowly so you can level Nils up and get 19xx later on as well, and this is only on playthroughs where you're doing Hector Mode, AKA playthroughs in which you know how to play and probably want to finish LM in 1 or 2 sittings.

I would rank avatars by how much they add to the game. Mark adds nothing so I don't like him very much. Even Kris, my next least favourite, adds new chapters, supports, and funny hats. I might elaborate on this tomorrow. (Now that I think about it Mark and Kris would be much better in the opposite games. It would be very novel to be able to have a unit whose class you can choose in FE7, but I guess in practice there would only be 2 or 3 practical options.)

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Stones said:

That doesn't have very much to do with the actual avatars, it's more that they are important characters so cutscenes often feature them. Like Ike and Micaiah get cutscenes, but the only difference between theirs and Corrin/Byleth is that the second pair are avatars, there's no real difference between the actual animated cutscenes. Regarding the quality, that's really just a matter of opinion and again is not really related to the avatars, they just have them in it, if that makes sense.

I very much disagree. Two of the examples I gave were of Ch 1 and Ch 7, both of which are pretty small battles, and very easy. Even Ch 10 isn't that important. You could argue that the praise is appropriate if you go quick and have Florina break the snag and everything, A) but you can go fast in Awakening and 3H, and B) you get the "you're so smart mark" regardless of whether you go fast or take the full 15 turns you need to get the gaiden. In late Lyn Mode the game also incentivises going slowly so you can level Nils up and get 19xx later on as well, and this is only on playthroughs where you're doing Hector Mode, AKA playthroughs in which you know how to play and probably want to finish LM in 1 or 2 sittings.

I would rank avatars by how much they add to the game. Mark adds nothing so I don't like him very much. Even Kris, my next least favourite, adds new chapters, supports, and funny hats. I might elaborate on this tomorrow. (Now that I think about it Mark and Kris would be much better in the opposite games. It would be very novel to be able to have a unit whose class you can choose in FE7, but I guess in practice there would only be 2 or 3 practical options.)

One fun thing about Mark is that how well you play the actual game does determine their ending, with them being a tactical genius people war to have on their side if you score high ranks, or an obfuscating mess of a tactician that no one can comprehend somehow manage to win battles. I don't think this goes for the in chapter lines delivered throughout the game, but it would be a particularly fun way to approach an avatar. Giving praise only when the player actually deserves it.

[Parrhesia]

I adore Byleth, but she's really not much of an avatar. I'd rather you weren't able to set her name, speaking as someone who's changed her name every run. It sets up expectations she isn't designed to meet.

Nah, if they do avatars here on out I'd rather they lean into it more with more RPG Decision Making (tm).  But if not, I'm entirely at peace with just having a viewpoint character with a settled personality.

[Samz707]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

One fun thing about Mark is that how well you play the actual game does determine their ending, with them being a tactical genius people war to have on their side if you score high ranks, or an obfuscating mess of a tactician that no one can comprehend somehow manage to win battles. I don't think this goes for the in chapter lines delivered throughout the game, but it would be a particularly fun way to approach an avatar. Giving praise only when the player actually deserves it.

Yeah I'd love if we got that in the actual chapter lines.

Closest we get is Alm in Echoes, where he's actually called out for killing Zeke/Failing to save Mathilda.

[Stones]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

One fun thing about Mark is that how well you play the actual game does determine their ending, with them being a tactical genius people war to have on their side if you score high ranks, or an obfuscating mess of a tactician that no one can comprehend somehow manage to win battles. I don't think this goes for the in chapter lines delivered throughout the game, but it would be a particularly fun way to approach an avatar. Giving praise only when the player actually deserves it.

This is true but the ranking system is kinda garbo in FE7 because the game rewards you for doing stuff like hoarding stat boosters and punishes you for promoting Dart. It's not really good strategy and more following some abstract and arbitrary rules set by the game that don't reward the right sort of playing, in my opinion. At least they tried though, which is more than the majority of games have done.

[Baldrick]

Fire Emblem is first and foremost a turn-based strategy game. The player’s role is an abstract one, making tactical decisions, and doesn’t need to be represented by any one character, but if there must be a player avatar, a tactician is a reasonable position.

The importance of the avatar is a poor metric to judge them on. It just leads to the gratuitous and obsequious praise in Awakening and other games, any character that dares to not love the avatar is vilified.

Instead, the treatment of the avatar should depend on the decisions the player makes, that is, the quality of the tactics. FE7’s system is not perfect, but it is the most appropriate. Crucially, if you play badly, the game (and the character in the ranking screen) does not pull its punches.

[Use the Falchion]

Robin was probably my favorite and I voted for them, but each has their strengths and weaknesses. 

Robin was the truest blank slate in terms of being a unit, which made them fun to play around with. Their characterization was pretty limited compared to Corrin, but their role for most of the game was nearly perfect. And despite the late-game "twists," I never felt that Robin truly overshadowed Chrom and Lucina. They were a complement, not competition. 

Corrin was a solid Avatar in terms of being the player's look into the world. It was really ambitious for IntSys to make Corrin both the lord and the Avatar of the game. Where Corrin truly falters is being the Manakete as well, IMO. Sure this lead to some cool exclusive class stuff, but I think that aspect hurt Corrin more than it helped. Corrin should have been two the three, not all three. 

Byleth has grown interesting to me because of their lack of characterization. The whole lack of emotions made them feel like they were starting at an inversion and truly becoming human, which ironically parallels their journey to what amounts to godhood in 3/4 of the paths. Overall, I guess where people would say "Byleth sucks because there's no character there," I would counter with "yes, that's the point." 

Mark is solid. I like their desire to become a tactician and how much more relatable they feel than all of the other Avatars. We the players aren't fighters, but giving us a character to control the fighters felt realistic in all the right ways. But I'm also not a fan of how Mark is ultimately phased out by the story. As the player with an Avatar, I want to be an active participant in the story, or at least a known observer. 

I can't speak for Kris since I haven't played FE12 though; and outside of the comics, Kiran is a plot-point, not a character. 

[Axie]

kris in second even with a "none" option (which i expected to lead)? VICTORY