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[Jotari]

15 hours ago, Seazas said:

You've proven that you're not really listening, you write it off as "weak attempts at justifying bias" when Echoes and New Mystery are completely different games, stories and situations. You used one example that doesn't cover all of Kris' flaws and problems and still use that to assume I'd be fine if any other character had Kris' role.

Fuck no I would not, especially to actively undermine EVERY story scene to center around that character and force Marth to act weird and push them over everyone else. Especially making characters like Elice act off for the sake of putting Kris on a pedestal. 

Hell, that example you brought up... There WAS no character stealing Alm's lines or turning the scene to praise some unrelated character. No, it was just cut dialogue for consistency in the current story's events.

But that's the entire point. In one game the same dialogue it's innocuous, in another it's offensive. That's literally your bias at work.

[Samz707]

So on the topic of Avatars.

Do you guys value being able to customize the appearance of them or being able to define their personality in some way (Through dialogue choices or vague implications like Mark) more towards making them  "You" in terms of an Avatar?

[AnonymousSpeed]

12 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

So on the topic of Avatars.

Do you guys value being able to customize the appearance of them or being able to define their personality in some way (Through dialogue choices or vague implications like Mark) more towards making them  "You" in terms of an Avatar?

I think it's a fun little thing to throw in, though not strictly necessary. Robin worked alright despite having a very set personality. I personally value flexibility in unit build the most, though I think having elements of appearance customization and dialogue selection help make the unit more unique- it's not the same unit used differently each game, but a distinct character you get to insert and play around with.

[Seazas]

20 hours ago, Jotari said:

But that's the entire point. In one game the same dialogue it's innocuous, in another it's offensive. That's literally your bias at work.

It's offensive because a random character steals Marth's achievements. There is no character stealing Alm's achievements, anything with Lukas and Clive are made up achievements that wasn't in Gaiden to flesh them out as characters. Alm having cut dialogue is far different from Kris being the one to say strategies instead of someone who's SEEN a war like Marth. 

[Lightcosmo]

I think what Seazas is saying is that Lukas/Clive/Gray/Tobin gets scenes to develop them as characters, not to be in an "important" role. Whereas Kris is essentially a "main" character. But is very poorly written as far as that goes. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Which I agree with, to be fair. I thought SoV had great character development for the minor ones that they focused on.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

12 hours ago, Samz707 said:

So on the topic of Avatars.

Do you guys value being able to customize the appearance of them or being able to define their personality in some way (Through dialogue choices or vague implications like Mark) more towards making them  "You" in terms of an Avatar?

I definitely like aesthetic and mechanical customization, when it comes to my Avatar. That way, it's a "different" main character every time. Giving myself purple hair and an eyepatch is just a lot of fun. As is getting to choose a starting class (a la Kris), reclass (a la Corrin), or bane/boon stats. The lack of these elements, I thought, weakened The Professor as an Avatar - even if I thought their ability to influence dialogue was a neat new step.

[Jotari]

12 hours ago, Seazas said:

It's offensive because a random character steals Marth's achievements. There is no character stealing Alm's achievements, anything with Lukas and Clive are made up achievements that wasn't in Gaiden to flesh them out as characters. Alm having cut dialogue is far different from Kris being the one to say strategies instead of someone who's SEEN a war like Marth. 

But there would have been character stealing if the exact same dialogue had been in Marth's game. Or to quote exactly what you think

On 3/20/2021 at 8:00 PM, Seazas said:

Blame FE12 and further my dislike toward Kris since they'd rather make Kris look godlike while making Marth less and less competent.

Such dialogue would have made Kris look godlike. But only if it's Kris saying it.

13 hours ago, Samz707 said:

So on the topic of Avatars.

Do you guys value being able to customize the appearance of them or being able to define their personality in some way (Through dialogue choices or vague implications like Mark) more towards making them  "You" in terms of an Avatar?

I like choices that raise or lower relationship values (though preferably raise or lower between two different characters so there's no right/wrong answer wherein the player feels punished for incorrectly guessing something esoteric). The choices like the ones in Awaekning where they present a choice box for a massive part of the plot, only to have it in no way shape or form affect anything at all, yeah that just feels tacky to me.

In terms of appearance, I think the obvious answer why we didn't get customizeable Byleth is so thaey had a design to use in the cutscenes. And it was kind of awkward in previous entries where they tried to give us POV shots or just keep the avatar out of view. However I think there is a good middle ground. They should have enhanced the wardrobe customizing aspect of Byleth greatly. There was like only a single alternate costume. Leave their face the same so it doesn't seem weird to have the cutscene about a different person, but let us change like everything else about their appearance. Another, I think rather clever, way to get around this is to give us a fully customizeable avatar, but also make them where a helmet or mask for story reasons. They wouldn't have to wear it all the time, jut enough for it to not seem odd when they're always wearing during the prerendered stuff. I made a thread about that idea once, but people didn't seem as into the idea as I

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Jotari

[Samz707]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

But there would have been character stealing if the exact same dialogue had been in Marth's game. Or to quote exactly what you think

Such dialogue would have made Kris look godlike. But only if it's Kris saying it.

I like choices that raise or lower relationship values (though preferably raise or lower between two different characters so there's no right/wrong answer wherein the player feels punished for incorrectly guessing something esoteric). The choices like the ones in Awaekning where they present a choice box for a massive part of the plot, only to have it in no way shape or form affect anything at all, yeah that just feels tacky to me.

In terms of appearance, I think the obvious answer why we didn't get customizeable Byleth is so thaey had a design to use in the cutscenes. And it was kind of awkward in previous entries where they tried to give us POV shots or just keep the avatar out of view. However I think there is a good middle ground. They should have enhanced the wardrobe customizing aspect of Byleth greatly. There was like only a single alternate costume. Leave their face the same so it doesn't seem weird to have the cutscene about a different person, but let us change like everything else about their appearance. Another, I think rather clever, way to get around this is to give us a fully customizeable avatar, but also make them where a helmet or mask for story reasons. They wouldn't have to wear it all the time, jut enough for it to not seem odd when they're always wearing during the prerendered stuff. I made a thread about that idea once, but people didn't seem as into the idea as I

 

Awakening kinda tried that with Robin's hood...but it was still very clearly Male Robin. (And I doubt it changes for if you change Robin's body type to be Taller/Shorter, AKA that one bit of customization I think literally everyone forgets about.)

At least Palette Swaps could be fun, Get your Mark Green color or the Pelgian Symbol on your coat and I always like full-on alternative outfits.

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Samz707

[Faellin]

Robin I feel is considered the best, since he feels the most like his own character. And one the entire game doesn't revolve around for the most part. Well until the end atleast.

Corrin is a mess. Bad character, and the entire roster has a crush on them...

But Kris comes closest to how I feel an avatar SHOULD be in the series. Not a main character, just another unit in the army. Although him butting into the main story is a bit to much at times. And the fact he was put into a remake and not a new game is a problem. But he is still closest to how I feel an avatar style unit should be implemented. Just tone down his main story screen time a bit and keep most of his stuff to supports and side chapters. Also the fact the he didn't have some broken personal class for the game and just picked one from the main classes was great.

I absolutely hated Byleth honestly. No personality or character of his own. Just a literal mute that others talk to... Maybe I would like him more if he actually was a character.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Faellin

[Seazas]

17 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

I think what Seazas is saying is that Lukas/Clive/Gray/Tobin gets scenes to develop them as characters, not to be in an "important" role. Whereas Kris is essentially a "main" character. But is very poorly written as far as that goes. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Which I agree with, to be fair. I thought SoV had great character development for the minor ones that they focused on.

Sort of, I won't fault a game if it doesn't force itself to do that. I like Mystery of the Emblem after all, but it irks the shit out of me when Kris was not only forced in a game that clearly didn't fit them... They hog the writing when Archanea finally had a chance to make people care about its side characters. Hell, a lot of people don't care for Marth and he's the goddamn main lead! What on earth was going through Maeda's brain to force an avatar and give Marth's achievements to Kris? This is inexcusable to me.

You know you fucked up when I see the majority of people like Palla, Est, and Catria more from their inclusion in Echoes than New Mystery. And Echoes had waaayyy less dialogue and opportunities than NM.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

But there would have been character stealing if the exact same dialogue had been in Marth's game. Or to quote exactly what you think

Such dialogue would have made Kris look godlike. But only if it's Kris saying it.

No shit if it's Kris stealing Marth's achievement and shining character moment. That does not happen in Echoes as no one is handed Alm's strategy scene, it's just removed to replace with a scene that's more consistent with someone as slightly inexperienced as Alm.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Seazas said:

No shit if it's Kris stealing Marth's achievement and shining character moment. That does not happen in Echoes as no one is handed Alm's strategy scene, it's just removed to replace with a scene that's more consistent with someone as slightly inexperienced as Alm.

Indeed. And when presented as a Kris and Marth conversation, it suddenly did become scene stealing.

[AnonymousSpeed]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Another, I think rather clever, way to get around this is to give us a fully customizeable avatar, but also make them where a helmet or mask for story reasons. They wouldn't have to wear it all the time, jut enough for it to not seem odd when they're always wearing during the prerendered stuff. I made a thread about that idea once, but people didn't seem as into the idea as I.

I think I liked that idea. I quite favor masks, personally.

[Acacia Sgt]

I and some others can vouch for that.

Anyway, that reminds me how Dragon Quest IX did just that. Customizable characters, but before a big cutscene the player is given, and has to equip, a full-set of equipment which includes a full helm. Thus, the cutscene can work no matter how the character looked.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[AnonymousSpeed]

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I and some others can vouch for that.

The Ruined World is my magical realm.

You could also just not use pre-rendered cutscenes. I know that real time renders don't look as good, but I'm not sure it's that big a deal. Three Houses doesn't even look good as it is, I'm sure we'd all prefer a game which runs entirely in-engine and looks alright rather than one which has fancy cutscenes and generally trash graphics.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The Ruined World is my magical realm.

You could also just not use pre-rendered cutscenes. I know that real time renders don't look as good, but I'm not sure it's that big a deal. Three Houses doesn't even look good as it is, I'm sure we'd all prefer a game which runs entirely in-engine and looks alright rather than one which has fancy cutscenes and generally trash graphics.

It's definitely an option, but much like the just don't have an avatar at all option, it doesn't seem all that likely. Every game since Path of Radiance has had prerendered cutscene in some form. And from the perspective of Nintendo or IS, having prerendered cutscenes is just a matter of money, not time or effort, since they're done out of house by an animation studio (in other words putting prerendered cutscenes into the game doesn't put resources towards something that could be spent on another aspect of the game, unless the game just has a really tight budget in terms of money). So there's no major loss for the developers for having prerenders, and in fact a lot of games from the advertising aspect of it, as it's prime material for making a trailer for the game.  So yeah, while I personally wouldn't mind at all if they ditched prerendered cutscenes, much like Avatars themselves, I don't really expect them to.

[Metal Flash]

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

Another, I think rather clever, way to get around this is to give us a fully customizeable avatar, but also make them where a helmet or mask for story reasons. They wouldn't have to wear it all the time, jut enough for it to not seem odd when they're always wearing during the prerendered stuff. I made a thread about that idea once, but people didn't seem as into the idea as I

I think it`s a pretty good idea. However, I can also see it leading to a couple of issues. Either,

a) They were the helmet or mask all the time, making customization options for the face, hair and eyes pointless or

b) They only wear the accessory in said cutscenes, making it feel like a unneccesary inclusion

Not to say it can`t work, heck I wouldn`t be opposed to the idea.

 

Another thing about Kris I just remembered liking is how they can be customized even after starting the game. At certain points in the game, some characters will approach you, asking if you wanna change your look. Cecil offers you a headband, Xane-turned-Tiki offers you "her" tiara, and so on. And if you didn`t like it, you could change back in the next chapter. I liked that a lot and would love to see future games include options like this. 

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Metal Flash said:

I think it`s a pretty good idea. However, I can also see it leading to a couple of issues. Either,

a) They were the helmet or mask all the time, making customization options for the face, hair and eyes pointless or

b) They only wear the accessory in said cutscenes, making it feel like a unneccesary inclusion

Not to say it can`t work, heck I wouldn`t be opposed to the idea.

 

Another thing about Kris I just remembered liking is how they can be customized even after starting the game. At certain points in the game, some characters will approach you, asking if you wanna change your look. Cecil offers you a headband, Xane-turned-Tiki offers you "her" tiara, and so on. And if you didn`t like it, you could change back in the next chapter. I liked that a lot and would love to see future games include options like this. 

They could not have the helmet on in most cutscenes, but during combat animations its worn given it's a piece of battlefield equipment (with an option to remove the helmet in combat animations in the settings). Given how most pre rendered cutscenes are probably going to be during battlefield moments there wouldn't be a massive amount of contrivance there. Another more esoteric option would be to just plain never actually show us the avatar's face, yet still give us tonnes of customisation options for their armour that you can freely change at any time. I think that's how the game warframe roles with its playable characters (haven't played that game personally, but it was crazy popular with my friends a few years back).

[Samz707]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

They could not have the helmet on in most cutscenes, but during combat animations its worn given it's a piece of battlefield equipment (with an option to remove the helmet in combat animations in the settings). Given how most pre rendered cutscenes are probably going to be during battlefield moments there wouldn't be a massive amount of contrivance there. Another more esoteric option would be to just plain never actually show us the avatar's face, yet still give us tonnes of customisation options for their armour that you can freely change at any time. I think that's how the game warframe roles with its playable characters (haven't played that game personally, but it was crazy popular with my friends a few years back).

Honestly I think that'd be cool even for not just the avatar.

Having characters wear helmets during battles. (I was kinda hoping since I heard Dorothea loses her hat on promotions that reclassing to Soldier and such in 3H actually adds helmets, and the reason Delthea lost her hat was due to being in those classes.)

 

[Metal Flash]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

They could not have the helmet on in most cutscenes, but during combat animations its worn given it's a piece of battlefield equipment (with an option to remove the helmet in combat animations in the settings). Given how most pre rendered cutscenes are probably going to be during battlefield moments there wouldn't be a massive amount of contrivance there. Another more esoteric option would be to just plain never actually show us the avatar's face, yet still give us tonnes of customisation options for their armour that you can freely change at any time. I think that's how the game warframe roles with its playable characters (haven't played that game personally, but it was crazy popular with my friends a few years back).

I could see that working, Fates did let you change some aspects of Corrin`s appearance throughout the game from what I recall.

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Metal Flash said:

I could see that working, Fates did let you change some aspects of Corrin`s appearance throughout the game from what I recall.

It had accessories which you could attach to any character, not Corrin specific (and also far too expensive in game, probably to encourage the social trading aspect). Though Fates did let you change Corrin's hair at any point in the game which was a nice touch.

[AnonymousSpeed]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Every game since Path of Radiance has had prerendered cutscene in some form.

Yeah and they looked bad there too.

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

And from the perspective of Nintendo or IS, having prerendered cutscenes is just a matter of money, not time or effort, since they're done out of house by an animation studio (in other words putting prerendered cutscenes into the game doesn't put resources towards something that could be spent on another aspect of the game, unless the game just has a really tight budget in terms of money). So there's no major loss for the developers for having prerenders, and in fact a lot of games from the advertising aspect of it, as it's prime material for making a trailer for the game.

Hm, fair points. If the primary use of such cutscenes is to generate trailers, though, they could probably find a way to not involve the avatar in them. This is especially the case if the avatar is supposed to be more Kris than Byleth- a supporting character rather than a main lord. Focus the cutscenes on lore bits or whatever- it's a possibility. Of course, that also assumes that supporting character avatars are comparably profitable to main lord avatars, which might be totally wrong.

[DarkSage861]

Literally anyone but Byleth 

[edgelordweeb]

Byleth, Kris, or Mark probably if I'm picking, but I chose the "avatars suck" option. Byleth is at least a silent protag with some dialogue options which makes it a bit more bearable and Kris and Mark aren't super important in their games. Anyways until they add impactful player decisions to Fire Emblem I think they should cut avatars entirely. Storywise they've been a detriment to every game they've appeared in. Even in 3H where I feel it was handled best, I'm a lot more interested in the actual characters than the silent protag self-insert's storyline. I do take issue with Byleth over the others in one way though, because I don't see why they just didn't go all the way with having an avatar if they were gonna have one. Like if you have an avatar self-insert, why remove customization? At that point just have the character be an actual character with dialogue instead and drop the idea of it being the avatar. If they're gonna do it they should go all the way. If they're not gonna go all the way, there's no point and they're just handicapping the story with an avatar that's hardly an avatar for no reason.

[Seazas]

On 3/30/2021 at 1:03 PM, Jotari said:

Indeed. And when presented as a Kris and Marth conversation, it suddenly did become scene stealing.

Yep as Kris taking Marth's dialogue instead (unlike Echoes where that doesn't happen) and Marth, a far more experienced character, being made worse is inexcusable. Bad logic.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Yep as Kris taking Marth's dialogue instead (unlike Echoes where that doesn't happen) and Marth, a far more experienced character, being made worse is inexcusable. Bad logic.

Conversation's moved on. You don't have to get the last word in. Especially when you have nothing to actually say.