Why is Alm and Berkut just a worse version of Naruto vs Neji

[Ottservia]

I mean just think about it. Both Berkut and Neji kind of argue the same point in that you can’t change the circumstances of your birth. Obviously the difference is in the details but there’s a similarity to draw there and I feel like comparing the two scenarios kind of highlights SoV’s short comings as a narrative. 
 

Both Berkut and Neji argue that the circumstances of one’s birth cannot be changed. That you are forced down a pre-set path from the moment you’re born that you can’t change course from. Berkut argues that a commoner can never hope to rise up to lead because that’s a noble’s duty. Only those born to lead have that right. Neji argues similarly in that if you’re born a loser then you will stay a loser and nothing you do will change that. If people label you as inferior or a monster that is all you will ever be. Now obviously Berkut and Neji are considered wrong in their respective narratives and as such are defeated by the protagonist who believe the opposite that you can rise above your station and defy your destiny. However, when I look at both conflicts, I find that Naruto vs Neji is actually a lot more thematically coherent than Berkut vs Alm which I consider a thematically incoherent mess. And like I said the difference is in the details. Naruto vs Neji is just far more nuanced of a conflict.

The first major difference is that Neji is a hypocrite while Berkut is not. In Naruto, Neji was a member of the branch family of the Hyuga clan. He was born in a family inferior to the main house and thought his destiny was to always remain inferior and to reluctantly die protecting said house. However, despite that, his natural ability and talent allowed him to learn techniques exclusive to the main house. For as much as Neji says he cannot defy his destiny, his  actions say otherwise. In that he proves his superiority to Hinata(a member of the main house) by beating the shit out of her. Naruto even calls him out on this. Berkut by contrast does not have a comparable internal conflict. He definitely has an internal conflict but it’s more so born out of insecurity rather than some innate hypocrisy in his ideals. Which that’s fine. Berkut doesn’t need to be Neji to be a well written antagonist. What isn’t fine however is Berkut’s philosophy never really being proven wrong in the end which leads into my next point.

The other major difference between the two conflicts, and arguably the most important, is the consistency and execution of the main characters’ side of the argument. When you look at Naruto vs Neji as a whole as well as in the context of the overall narrative it’s fairly consistent. Looking at the fight on its own, the conflict centers on the idea of not being able to defy societal expectations as well as the curses placed on you by birth. In that way Naruto and Neji mirror each other. Neji with the curse mark on his forehead which allows members of the main house to supress and control him, and Naruto’s nine tails seal which branded him a monster and a failure by the whole village. Naruto counters Neji’s ideals by saying that everyone can change their destiny. The don’t have to follow and give into societal expectations and the labels they were branded with. Which is symbolically in how he beats Neji by using the power of the nine tailed fox. A power people shunned him for, a power that brought him nothing but pain and loneliness. Essentially, he beats Neji with something he once viewed as a curse that brought him nothing but loneliness much like Neji’s curse. He turns that curse into a blessing and proves that he’s not a monster or a failure. A fact further highlighted in him using shadow clones to defeat Neji as that was once Naruto’s worst technique that he couldn’t master. It’s only when someone genuinely believed in him that he was able to prove that he could master it. It’s yet another example of him turning a weakness into a strength which is consistent with his overall ideals involving destiny and societal labels. 
 

Alm and Berkut’s conflict on the other hand does not have nearly the same level of Nuance. In fact it’s contradictory. Alm asserts that a person’s worth is not determined by the station of their birth. It’s their actions and ideals that do. A conflict he also has with Clive when deciding to save Delthea. However, this does not ring true with Alm himself. Throughout the entirety of the story, Alm’s worth is almost entirely determined by the station of his birth. He has the brand of which was prophesied to only appear on those who will one day save Valentia. That is something he has to be botn with. It’s the only reason he’s able to wield Falchion which is the only weapon capable of slaying Duma(Nosferatu notwithstanding) which brands him a hero. His brand is what also connects him with Celica. It’s his royal lineage that allows him to enter the Rigelian vault as well as take the rigelian throne fairly easily. And that’s not even mentioning the royal sword. He’s even made leader of the deliverance because he was believed to be Mycen’s grandson. To be fair, that is a point of conflict with Clive when that’s shown not to be the case and Clive is supposed to be wrong. However, that’s thrown completely out the window with the whole “actually royal” thing. Alm doesn’t even beat Berkut with anything that would symbolically represent his ideals of what makes a true king and/or leader. Which to be fair is harder to do in a video game context. However, my overall point is that the initial conflict of a man’s worth being determined by ideals or birth isn’t even addressed in their final confrontation. By contrast the whole destiny thing with Naruto and Neji is revisited when Neji dies protecting Naruto because Naruto called him a genius. Neji dies because of his own volition to protect what is precious to him not out of obligation to the main house like he originally thought which shows growth in his character. This idea of destiny is even touched on in Naruto vs Sasuke. Where the two spirits of Indra and Asura were meant to conflict with each other for all eternity in an endless cycle of reincarnation and hate. Naruto and Sasuke, however, are able to compromise and bring an end to the long standing sibling feud. Again, SoV does not have this same level of nuance to it but still. And perhaps the comparison is a little but I still believe there’s merit in the comparison regardless. What do you all think?

[kradeelav]

I have nothing of value to bring to this topic except the experience of being there in the height of the naruto fandom back before the timeskip, and ... i snorted at the comparison.  you're not wrong. :P

[lenticular]

I've never seen or read anything of Naruto so I can't comment on any of the specifics of that franchise. However, if Wikipedia is to be be believed, Naruto has had 72 volumes of manga, 26 novels, 720 episodes of anime across two series, and 11 full length movies. I have no clue what proportion of that total featured the characters you're talking about, but they have had no shortage of time to cover characters and themes in basically as much depth as they want.

On the other hand, Shadows of Valentia is a single video game, it gives more of its time and effort to gameplay than to storytelling, it is limited by trying to follow the plot of Gaiden, and Alm vs Berkut isn't even the main focus of the story (for me, the two biggest aspects of the story are the defeat of Duma to transition into a new age, and the love story between Alm and Celica; your mileage may vary). I don't know how much dialogue Berkut gets across the whole game. Maybe a few hundred words, at a guess? Of course he's going to be a fairly shallow character. How could he have been anything but? Expecting nuanced storytelling under these circumstances seems futile at best.

Sure the Alm versus Berkut storyline isn't perfect and could have been done better, but I don't see this sort of apples-to-oranges comparison as a useful way to shine a light on its flaws.

[BrightBow]

A bit of a loaded question there.

Though they do both do have the same problem: That the main character is not a nobody. That they are in fact much more privileged then their counterparts who believe that no amount of hard work can change one's social standing. Consequently they not only fail to make a case against their opponent's view point by defeating them in battle, but do in fact support it.
It's just that Alm is the Emperor of Rigel's son while Naruto inherited both his parents highly blessed bloodlines and by extension the bloodlines of all previous hokage in a setting where bloodline powers rule over all, had a giant beast sealed inside of him as an infant supplying him with infinite amounts of chakra, has gotten the tutorship of some of the greatest entities of that setting and is the reincarnation of the son of the Sage of the Six Paths.

Edited March 13, 2021 by BrightBow

[vanguard333]

I can honestly say, when I first saw the title of this, my first thought was, "What? How exactly are Alm & Naruto and Berkut & Neji comparable exactly?" Now it makes sense. Honestly, the only similarity I could think of between Neji and Berkut was both of them feeling betrayed by their uncles.

Some interesting points I just thought I'd add:

1. One more difference is that the shy blue-haired girl is on Naruto's side in Naruto whereas she's on Berkut's side in SoV. Not really important, but I just thought it worth pointing out because it's funny.

2.

9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

For as much as Neji says he cannot defy his destiny, his  actions say otherwise. In that he proves his superiority to Hinata(a member of the main house) by beating the shit out of her. Naruto even calls him out on this.

One thing to add to this: Hinata also noticed his hypocrisy and called him out on it during their fight; thus getting the last word in, and it's her picking up on this and pointing it out to him that drives him to almost kill her.

3. 

9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

A fact further highlighted in him using shadow clones to defeat Neji as that was once Naruto’s worst technique that he couldn’t master. It’s only when someone genuinely believed in him that he was able to prove that he could master it. It’s yet another example of him turning a weakness into a strength which is consistent with his overall ideals involving destiny and societal labels. 

Eh... that's something the dub has Naruto say: "I failed the academy test three times; always on the shadow clone jutsu", but it's incorrect: the jutsu that the academy kept testing them on was the basic clone jutsu; shadow clone jutsu was the jutsu he learned from the scroll of forbidden jutsu. It still applies though as the only reason he stole the scroll in the first place was that Mizuki used his loneliness and failure at the test to trick him into stealing it. 

 

1 hour ago, BrightBow said:

Though they do both do have the same problem: That the main character is not a nobody. That they are in fact much more privileged then their counterparts who believe that no amount of hard work can change one's social standing. Consequently they not only fail to make a case against their opponent's view point by defeating them in battle, but do in fact support it.
It's just that Alm is the Emperor of Rigel's son while Naruto inherited both his parents highly blessed bloodlines and by extension the bloodlines of all previous hokage in a setting where bloodline powers rule over all, had a giant beast sealed inside of him as an infant supplying him with infinite amounts of chakra, has gotten the tutorship of some of the greatest entities of that setting and is the reincarnation of the son of the Sage of the Six Paths.

I'd say that problem applies for Alm vs Berkut, but not in the case of Naruto vs Neji.

Naruto is still a societal outcast at the point in the story where he fights Neji; he's hated by almost all the adults, and he's looked down on as a loser by almost all the kids. The Nine-Tails is the very thing that made him an outcast in the first place, so him using its power to win doesn't interfere with the case he's making but in fact supports it.

Also, unlike with Alm being viewed as a peasant, Naruto being a social outcast isn't changed by him being the son of the 4th Hokage; he's still the Nine-Tails Jinchuriki: he's still a living Nuclear Bomb Metaphor and prison for a creature that nearly destroyed the village, and those are the things that made him downtrodden within society. Furthermore, the reveal that Alm is Rudolf's son additionally comes loaded with the reveal that he's literally been groomed for carrying out a long-term plan to free Valentia of Duma & Mila's influence, rendering all of Alm's achievements moot as they're the achievements of a destined crown prince who's been unwittingly groomed to be one, whereas Naruto had no such grooming. Sure, he does get trained by two people who knew his parents (Kakashi being Minato's former pupil and Jiraiya being Minato's former sensei), but they aren't grooming him to succeed Minato or anything like that; they're just looking after the son of someone who was dear to them personally. Plus, almost none of what they've taught him actually comes into play in the Neji fight; best summed up by Naruto himself before the fight when he hears people talking about Neji's skills and he thinks to himself, "But it's okay because now I can summon a frog."

As for that second paragraph, uh... what? Minato didn't come from any blessed bloodlines; Minato was just a guy. He became the 4th Hokage through hard work and creativity: combining his knife-throwing skills and his wife's sealing jutsu techniques with an old teleportation jutsu to become the fastest shinobi alive, and the only things Naruto inherited from his dad were blonde hair and unorthodox creativity; Naruto didn't even inherit Minato's intellect; everyone who knew Naruto's parents note that he's a lot more like Kushina than Minato.

Speaking of Kushina, yes; you could argue that Naruto is somewhat "privileged" abilities-wise in inheriting the vast chakra reserves of someone of the Uzumaki clan. The thing is, most of that chakra goes towards maintaining the seal on the Nine-Tails, so he can't even use a majority of it. Plus, the Uzumaki clan were a small clan that got nearly wiped out, with its survivors scattered across different nations, and Kushina herself was something of a social outcast as she was forcibly brought into the village specifically to be the next Nine-Tails Jinchuriki. So, we have Naruto: an outcast who is the son of both an outcast and an ordinary guy who became of high-rank through skill and ingenuity.

And as for, "and by extension the bloodlines of all previous hokage" what? Naruto isn't blood-related to any of the previous Hokages except Minato. The only descendant of the first two Hokages is Tsunade and the only descendant of the Third is Konohamaru. 

Okay; the reincarnation thing was dumb and I'll give you that one, but he didn't gain any powers or standing from it until the Sage of Six Paths gave him some of his power during the fight with Madara.

[Ottservia]

15 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Okay; the reincarnation thing was dumb and I'll give you that one, but he didn't gain any powers or standing from it until the Sage of Six Paths gave him some of his power during the fight with Madara.

And even as far as reincarnation goes, Naruto as a series takes heavy inspiration from Buddhism and shintoism. A core philosophy of Buddhism is that life is suffering and we are stuck in an endless cycle of suffering in death and rebirth. The sage’s sons reincarnating like that is a literal representation of that philosophy. Naruto and Sasuke being able to compromise at the end is basically them ending that cycle of hatred and forging the true path to peace. Those two brothers were locked in an endless cycle of hate. Naruto and Sasuke were the first to break that cycle. 

[Armchair General]

This is kind of an loaded comparison since you're pitting with a video game against something that's been in production for several years. 

 

Plus, Almost isn't really a commoner, nor does he acts like one once he takes up the sword.

[vanguard333]

39 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

And even as far as reincarnation goes, Naruto as a series takes heavy inspiration from Buddhism and shintoism. A core philosophy of Buddhism is that life is suffering and we are stuck in an endless cycle of suffering in death and rebirth. The sage’s sons reincarnating like that is a literal representation of that philosophy. Naruto and Sasuke being able to compromise at the end is basically them ending that cycle of hatred and forging the true path to peace. Those two brothers were locked in an endless cycle of hate. Naruto and Sasuke were the first to break that cycle. 

True. I was only conceding that BrightBow's still right about it contradicting Naruto previously not being privileged power-wise, and even then I pointed out that he only gets the power during the Madara fight and he loses the power afterward as he's lost the sage orbs and he blew up the healing arm when fighting Sasuke. 

By the way, what did you think of the other points that I brought up (both the ones to add to your argument and the ones that were in response to BrightBow)?

 

44 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

This is kind of an loaded comparison since you're pitting with a video game against something that's been in production for several years. 

 

Plus, Almost isn't really a commoner, nor does he acts like one once he takes up the sword.

True, but on the other hand, you could look at it as a comparison between a video game remake (in other words, something that had another chance to refine its narrative) against a manga/anime arc from the early 2000s.

Indeed; that's kind-of the point: Alm contradicts himself in a way that Naruto doesn't (despite what some like BrightBow and the guy who made the Naruto: the Self-Made Hypocrite video on YouTube that somehow has a ton of views, would try to argue). 

 

12 hours ago, Ottservia said:

By contrast the whole destiny thing with Naruto and Neji is revisited when Neji dies protecting Naruto because Naruto called him a genius. Neji dies because of his own volition to protect what is precious to him not out of obligation to the main house like he originally thought which shows growth in his character. 

Interesting view on that. I will just say that the narrative seemed to be building towards Hiashi (Hinata's dad and Neji's uncle) being the one who would die, given how the characters were developing, him choosing Neji to lead the Hyuga Clan in the war effort, and moments like Hiashi fighting the zombie of his brother and telling him that things are beginning to change for the better for the Hyuga Clan. It really seemed to be building towards Hiashi dying and leaving the fate of the clan to Neji, who would then reform it, and that would've still carried that revisiting of the destiny idea with Hiashi dying while protecting his branch-family nephew and Neji being the one to change things for the Hyuga Clan.

Honestly, I probably would've preferred Hiashi being the one to die (from a narrative standpoint) and Neji being the one to live. But, as I said, either would've carried this revisit of that idea of destiny.

[Ottservia]

5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

By the way, what did you think of the other points that I brought up (both the ones to add to your argument and the ones that were in response to BrightBow)?

You basically took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

 

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Interesting view on that. I will just say that the narrative seemed to be building towards Hiashi (Hinata's dad and Neji's uncle) being the one who would die, given how the characters were developing, him choosing Neji to lead the Hyuga Clan in the war effort, and moments like Hiashi fighting the zombie of his brother and telling him that things are beginning to change for the better for the Hyuga Clan. It really seemed to be building towards Hiashi dying and leaving the fate of the clan to Neji, who would then reform it, and that would've still carried that revisiting of the destiny idea with Hiashi dying while protecting his branch-family nephew and Neji being the one to change things for the Hyuga Clan.

Honestly, I probably would've preferred Hiashi being the one to die (from a narrative standpoint) and Neji being the one to live. But, as I said, either would've carried this revisit of that idea of destiny.

I feel both could’ve worked but honestly I feel like Neji works better because of his prior relationship with Naruto(which leads into Obito calling him out on his supposed hypocrisy which only lands as hard as it does because it was a long time friend of Naruto’s like Neji) as well as just the fact that Neji is a more developed character.

[vanguard333]

14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

You basically took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

I feel both could’ve worked but honestly I feel like Neji works better because of his prior relationship with Naruto(which leads into Obito calling him out on his supposed hypocrisy which only lands as hard as it does because it was a long time friend of Naruto’s like Neji) as well as just the fact that Neji is a more developed character.

I see. Thanks. I was concerned that I might've phrased some things poorly or something like that.

Yeah; I can see that. I think Obito's speech still would've been effective via all the shinobi dying around Naruto via the Ten Tails, so you're right that either character's death could've worked. I guess another reason I prefer the idea of Hiashi being the one to die would be that it would've also tied into another idea that Naruto Shippuden was exploring: what you leave behind for the next generation.

 

Going back to Naruto vs Neji compared to Alm vs Berkut and whether or not you can escape what society decides you're worth, while Naruto vs Neji is definitely the superior one and just a really good example, I think the best version that I've seen in terms of just sheer level of conflict, struggle and especially social-class defiance would be Asta from Black Clover: 

Granted, he didn't grow up alone like Naruto did; he was raised in a church and had five foster-siblings and two sort-of parental figures, but his place in his society, being a peasant orphan and the only human in their world with no magic whatsoever, is that he's the biggest loser in the Clover Kingdom and that he's pretty much worthless. Only his foster-brother Yuno actually believed in him. If Neji ranted off at Asta about being unable to fight fate, Asta would probably just mention that he's heard it all before from almost everyone around him.

His reason for wanting to become the Wizard King? To prove that it's even possible for someone like him and hopefully tear down the elitism in the Clover Kingdom by proving that the downtrodden are worth more than people realize. "I'm someone who was born without any magic. But even so, I'm going to become the Wizard King, and I'm alive... to prove it!"

His never giving up? Almost everyone he encounters assumes that it's out of naiveté, when the truth is actually the opposite: he knows full-well what the bleak reality is, and he presses on regardless simply because it's better than giving up. All his shouting like a typical shonen protagonist, for ones like Naruto, it's to present a boisterous façade, but for Asta, it's for himself; it's to pump himself up to keep going. He even made a promise to himself that the one time he almost gave up; the time he found out he had no magic at all, would be the last time he ever lets himself get depressed. He literally forces himself to be optimistic and anti-nihilistic in the face of sheer pressure to become nihilist.

His powers? He gets a grimoire with 3 swords and anti-magic, none of which negate him being born without magic; they only enable him to stand a chance in the ring and potentially level the playing field. He still can't sense magic like those with magic can (but the converse is also true: they can't sense him through magic-sensing), and he can only use the anti-magic because he has no magic, all it does is simply enable him to nullify magic, and he has to use it through the swords. As for the swords, there is a history behind them and they were once used by a great hero, but the reasons only Asta can use them are that he spent years training his muscles and one of the swords passively absorbs magic around it, including the wielder's. As one character says, "There is nothing special about you at all... but that's exactly what makes you special."

His parents? Surely when his parents are revealed, they'll turn out to be royalty! 

Spoiler

Nope; that's his foster-brother Yuno's backstory.

Okay; what about his mentors? Well, he has two: Fanzell Kruger and Captain Yami. Fanzell Kruger is a former Diamond Kingdom solder & military instructor who defected and is in hiding in the Clover Kingdom. In other words, he's an outcast and not really anyone special. Captain Yami of the Black Bulls was ostracized for being a foreign castaway who ended up in the Clover Kingdom because his fishing boat got caught in a storm. So, Asta's a peasant trained by outcasts. 

Hm... There isn't really an antagonist that stands out in presenting a conflict of whether or not you can fight the bounds society places on you, as pretty much all of them tell him he can't succeed, so there isn't rely a Neji for this comparison... I suppose the two closest thing would be Langris in the Royal Knights exam arc, but I can't say anything about that without spoilers.

I realize that this is a bit of a tangent, but I just thought it worth mentioning as sort-of another example for comparison.

[NobodiePichu]

1) because alm vs berkut is not actually very similar in concept/narrative position as naruto vs neji to begin with, nor does it try to position itself as such. alms story was never about an underdog overcoming the obstacles in his way to achieve self fulfillment, alms story was in essence about someone who wanted to be an underdog everyfolk coming to terms with and accepting the greater destiny and responsibilities ahead of him regardless of his personal happiness. This is especially apparent in berkuts reaction to the mark on alms hand as recognition of alms importance in terms of destiny and lineage, which spirals into berkuts growing insecurities and eventual mania. Rather, well neji vs naruto is primarily driven by naruto, berkut vs alm is primarily driven by berkut. Thus comparing the two is effectively comparing apples to oranges.

2) because neji vs naruto was never particularly great to begin with. As a fight its lamely choreographed and unsatisfying, as an ideological or character conflict its confusing and insipid because neji makes no sense [hes fatalistic about being inferior due to being a branch member but egotistical about his skills being superior, the contradictions when brought together would more so imply an underdog frustrated that his greater skill is overlooked/suppressed because of his societal position but thats not how the fight or his character is framed by the narrative which makes it a frustrating mess] and naruto is incredibly shallow [admittedly by design, though ill add that its kinda funny the kid with magic fox powers that gives him excessive mana points to dump into a secret technique/heal faster/shrug off damage easier is suppose to be the underdog in this situation against a guy whos slightly better then others at punching things].

[Axie]

On 3/13/2021 at 6:19 AM, lenticular said:

I've never seen or read anything of Naruto so I can't comment on any of the specifics of that franchise. However, if Wikipedia is to be be believed, Naruto has had 72 volumes of manga, 26 novels, 720 episodes of anime across two series, and 11 full length movies. I have no clue what proportion of that total featured the characters you're talking about, but they have had no shortage of time to cover characters and themes in basically as much depth as they want.

On the other hand, Shadows of Valentia is a single video game, it gives more of its time and effort to gameplay than to storytelling, it is limited by trying to follow the plot of Gaiden, and Alm vs Berkut isn't even the main focus of the story (for me, the two biggest aspects of the story are the defeat of Duma to transition into a new age, and the love story between Alm and Celica; your mileage may vary). I don't know how much dialogue Berkut gets across the whole game. Maybe a few hundred words, at a guess? Of course he's going to be a fairly shallow character. How could he have been anything but? Expecting nuanced storytelling under these circumstances seems futile at best.

Sure the Alm versus Berkut storyline isn't perfect and could have been done better, but I don't see this sort of apples-to-oranges comparison as a useful way to shine a light on its flaws.

this thread could have ended on this stellar post

also all these attempts at comparing fire emblem to anime all the time are getting old. it's not the same media, you guys.

[Hasechi]

Berkut is racist, Neji isn't. Neji got sad past and that affect his mind. Neji isn't a bad guy to begin with. He just surrender to his fate & tell other to accept their fate too (until he meet naruto) A one with same fate like him but Naruto choose to fight against his own fate. And that  fixed & healed Neji's wound & mind.

Berkut on the other is selfish(willing to sacrifire his lover to gain power), racist, arogant & jealous. He never close as good as Neji. He can't compare to Neji. 

Berkut is in my top 10 hated Fire Emblem charater after Excellus (FE:Awakening). If I accidently summoned him in FE Heroes. I would immedialy press Send Home button & don't even care to use his skills to inherit to other units in my barrack.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Hasechi

[Murozaki]

Ottservia.

You of all people should have to understand that making pointless arbitrary comparisons to throw something under the bus is not what makes for good discourse.

And looking at your posts about SOV in general i legitimately think you don't understand what SOV is actually about. I don't even like SOV's story all that much and i feel your reading of it is incredibly flawed.

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Murozaki said:

Ottservia.

You of all people should have to understand that making pointless arbitrary comparisons to throw something under the bus is not what makes for good discourse.

And looking at your posts about SOV in general i legitimately think you don't understand what SOV is actually about. I don't even like SOV's story all that much and i feel your reading of it is incredibly flawed.

I will admit the comparison is a little unfair. I still believe there’s merit in the comparison though. I’m not necessarily saying SoV needs to be like Naruto to work. I realize the two are different stories with different ideas, messages and execution. The two stories are extremely different and I’m not necessarily comparing the two messages in it of themselves. I’m simply comparing difference in nuance of each narrative if that makes sense and I’m not even putting SoV down to prop Naruto up(despite what the title of the thread would have you believe). I’m simply examining the frame work of both stories to see why I feel like one works and the other doesn’t. The two stories examine similar ideas. In different ways, I’ll admit, and both ideas lead to different messages in the end. This little analysis is more for my own benefit if nothing else because it’s something that’s been on my mind for a while now because Naruto vs Neji is one I’ll defend from similar criticisms I and others give towards SoV’s noble vs commoner conflict. I realize that’s not the primary theme of SoV (I mean Duma’s words at the end of the story make that fairly clear) but the story still brings it up as a point of conflict. Unless of course I’m wrong and someone can make the argument that it’s supposed to be framed in a different context. Again, maybe the comparison is unfair. It’s just something I needed to get off my chest.

[Armchair General]

@Ottservia the noble vs commoner angle only works between Fernard and Clive, but that argument is short-lived as soon as Chapter 3 begins. You know, SoV doesn't really provide a lot of interactions with the Rigelians, aside from Berkut losing his shit after getting his army routed and Aim becomes the next emperor.

[Seazas]

On 3/14/2021 at 10:25 PM, Armchair General said:

@Ottservia the noble vs commoner angle only works between Fernard and Clive, but that argument is short-lived as soon as Chapter 3 begins. You know, SoV doesn't really provide a lot of interactions with the Rigelians, aside from Berkut losing his shit after getting his army routed and Aim becomes the next emperor.

The noble vs commoner arc is literally confirmed to only exist to flesh out the world, which it served its purpose for.

[Marienburg]

Why is Naruto vs Neji just a worse version of Jacob vs Esau?