Conrad's claim to the Throne

[Jotari]

So I can't be the first one whose mind went here as soon as Conrad revealed who he was. This is Celica's brother, from the looks of it her older brother (which I think internal data confirms too, every character was given an age internally as there was going to be a feature to let the adult characters drink the alcohol you offer up to Mila). So he is both older than Celica and male. I don't know if Valentia is confirmed to have primogeniture or absolute primogeniture, but even headcanoning Sofia to have gender equality Conrad by virtue of being older than Celica should oust her in line to the throne. I thought this was going to be a major source of conflict for the characters, or at the very least a minor one with Celica feeling insecure but Conrad assuring her he doesn't want the job. But it's never mentioned at all. Nadda. The possibility of King Conrad is never brought up once in the story despite him being perfectly eligible for the job (and no, he's not a bastard as his mother was forced to marry Lima). The closest the game gets to addressing this at all is near the end of his recruitment, where he says he revealed himself because he was heart broken seeing her take on the burdens of crown princess by herself and decided to share it with her. But that doesn't lead to any conversations about a co ruling situation or anything at all. Conrad's support with Celica is complete fluff where they talk about what he looks like with his mask on and his ending is about him becoming a civil servant, which actually kind of suggests he'd make a pretty decent king. Obviously we still need Celica to become queen by the end of the game, but there's a multiple ways they could have done that while still acknowledging that Conrad actually exists in the line of succession.

*Conrad just isn't interested in the job since Celica had her coming out ceremony before him. Or because Halcyon assured him she was the destined queen.

*Conrad's mother is from Rigel so they assume the people wouldn't unite around him as they would Celica.

*Conrad despite being older was born to a later wife of Lima which puts him at a lower level of succession compared to Lima's first wives of which Liprica belonged (yeah that's kind of awkward and complicated, but hey at least it is an explanation).

*Just make Conrad's mother a concubine instead of a wife, making him a bastard.

*Make Conrad unfit as he's sterile due to the fire (he never marries in his own ending already)

*Mila actually made the land a matriarchy and women just  plain out rank men

It just feels really weird that this is never addressed in the slightest after Conrad's recruitment. Especially since he really does absolutely nothing post recruitment. I checked the script for his lines before making this post just to see if I missed anything, and he has a ridiculously low number. He introduces the idea of the lost woods, has him show concern for Celica in the swamp, a single line given to him where he says it's Falchion in Mila's head and then one more set of lines when Celica's sacrificing herself. All of these are super minor one or two sentences (though his last lines in the game does have a nice call back to when he first appeared in saying how he made Celica promise not to throw her life away). It's like they had major plans for this guy in the game, but as soon as he joins the army they just forget about him. We don't even see him interact with Halcyon, the guy that raised him. Conrad seriously got shafted in the plot department after he reveals his true identity (and let's face it he doesn't have a whole lot going on before that either, it's just mysterious knight schitck). The possibility of him as king should have popped up at least once, even if only in a support with Nomah or someone (yeah, he only has a single support with Celica by the way).

Edited March 17, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

It's almost as though IS set up "Celica's long-lost brother" as a backstory and motivation, without considering any of the implications that such a setup would... well, set up. I'd be fine with being given a reason for him to be second-in-line to Celica. Or, if he's first-in-line, I'm okay with him simply turning down the opportunity to rule. But... somebody has to at least bring it up in-story, right? Is nobody going to mention it?

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

*Mila actually made the land a meritocracy and women just  plain out rank men

I assume you mean "matriarchy"? That doesn't seem to bear out with what we see (in Zofia, almost all people of power, as well as knights and soldiers, are men). It's possible that the throne practices female primogeniture without being a strict matriarchy, though.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

*Just make Conrad's mother a concubine instead of a wife, making him a bastard.

Yeah, this one would be so easy to do.

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's almost as though IS set up "Celica's long-lost brother" as a backstory and motivation, without considering any of the implications that such a setup would... well, set up. I'd be fine with being given a reason for him to be second-in-line to Celica. Or, if he's first-in-line, I'm okay with him simply turning down the opportunity to rule. But... somebody has to at least bring it up in-story, right? Is nobody going to mention it?

I assume you mean "matriarchy"? That doesn't seem to bear out with what we see (in Zofia, almost all people of power, as well as knights and soldiers, are men). It's possible that the throne practices female primogeniture without being a strict matriarchy, though.

Yeah, this one would be so easy to do.

Eh, yes, Matriarchy. Wonder if I can get away with blaming spell check on that one.

[Acacia Sgt]

Does Conrad even reveals who he really is at the end of the game? If the people don't know he is still alive then it matters little if he's more or less eligible than Celica, whom people at large knew or heard the rumors she was. Even then, some were preferring Alm instead when he drove out Desaix and Rigel.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

*Just make Conrad's mother a concubine instead of a wife, making him a bastard.

I'd say it hardly matters in this situation. Lima IV was such a philanderer "Wife" and "Concubine" are but interchangeable labels. Liprica was not the main wife either, for that matter.

22 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I assume you mean "matriarchy"? That doesn't seem to bear out with what we see (in Zofia, almost all people of power, as well as knights and soldiers, are men). It's possible that the throne practices female primogeniture without being a strict matriarchy, though.

Looking at the list of rulers, it was Zofia, then Zofia II, then the four Lima's. So... hardly Enatic succession at all. Unless they were all single childs the succession rule hardly mattered.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Does Conrad even reveals who he really is at the end of the game? If the people don't know he is still alive then it matters little if he's more or less eligible than Celica, whom people at large knew or heard the rumors she was. Even then, some were preferring Alm instead when he drove out Desaix and Rigel.

 

Well I'm not sure about the ending text of the Japanese, but the English translation for Celica's ending says "In marrying Alm, Celica became the first Queen of the One Kingdom of Valentia and aided her king etc". Which actually suggests that her own royalty didn't have any bearing on her status of Queen and she only became Queen of the merged Kingdoms by virtue of being Alm's wife! Might just be poor wording and not the intended implication though.

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Well I'm not sure about the ending text of the Japanese, but the English translation for Celica's ending says "In marrying Alm, Celica became the first Queen of the One Kingdom of Valentia and aided her king etc". Which actually suggests that her own royalty didn't have any bearing on her status of Queen and she only became Queen of the merged Kingdoms by virtue of being Alm's wife! Might just be poor wording and not the intended implication though.

I think this would be a battle between Alm and Conrad, assuming that the two countries merge.  If so, then I can see Conrad assuming the crown of Zofia long enough to abdicate rule to Alm, and then doing his own thing.  Given that Celica married Alm, I doubt she'd have any issue with that.

[King Marth 64]

Doesn't it make more sense to have Celica be the true heir of Zofia than Conrad had since Conrad doesn't have the Brand of Zofia like his half-sister has? Besides that, Echoes: Shadows of Valentia did explains better why Rigel and Zofia had to merge into Valm due to two kingdoms gotten messed up along with Duma and Mila died. They pretty much have to get Alm and Celica married each other to rebuild the two kingdoms from the war. Conrad was added in Echoes: Shadows of Valentia since we haven't seen him during at Gaiden because of Celica hadn't gotten a Cavalier in her team in original game and we pretty much know that they're adding extra lore in for fleshing out the story on Valentia as well.

Edited March 17, 2021 by King Marth 64

[Jotari]

25 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I think this would be a battle between Alm and Conrad, assuming that the two countries merge.  If so, then I can see Conrad assuming the crown of Zofia long enough to abdicate rule to Alm, and then doing his own thing.  Given that Celica married Alm, I doubt she'd have any issue with that.

Makes for a nice fan fic, but the larger issue is that the game doesn't address the whole point at all (and a situation as you suggest easily could have been added to his ending). Celica at the very least seems to be taking on the mantle of her kingdom and accepting her role as its future monarch during her whole promotion sequence.

20 minutes ago, King Marth 64 said:

Doesn't it make more sense to have Celica be the true heir of Zofia than Conrad had since Conrad doesn't have the Brand of Zofia like his half-sister has? Besides that, Echoes: Shadows of Valentia did explains better why Rigel and Zofia had to merge into Valm due to two kingdoms gotten messed up along with Duma and Mila died. They pretty much have to get Alm and Celica married each other to rebuild the two kingdoms from the war. Conrad was added in Echoes: Shadows of Valentia since we haven't seen him during at Gaiden because of Celica hadn't gotten a Cavalier in her team in original game and we pretty much know that they're adding extra lore in for fleshing out the story on Valentia as well.

Alm and Celica are the only ones to have the brand. It's not a standard thing for the royal familes as far as I can remember. But of course, yes, Celica and Alm do have to be King and Queen together by the end of the game. The issue here is less that Conrad never becomes king and more that the game does absolutely nothing to explain why Conrad never becomes king. They don't even address the possibility of him becoming king (hence why in the OP I give examples of reasons the game could have used as to why Conrad doesn't become king). From a meta point we know Celica is destined to be queen because she existed first in the original game, but in universe Conrad seems to be just as royal as Celica, has just as much responsibility as Celica, is just as much an unknown as Celica and is even older than Celica (with a penis for the potential people in universe who would care about that). His claim to the throne is equal to if not greater than hers yet no one ever thinks its worth commenting on that he exists in a capacity as crown prince.

[eclipse]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Makes for a nice fan fic, but the larger issue is that the game doesn't address the whole point at all (and a situation as you suggest easily could have been added to his ending). Celica at the very least seems to be taking on the mantle of her kingdom and accepting her role as its future monarch during her whole promotion sequence.

First, the game needs to acknowledge the retcon that is Conrad.  It feels like he was added at the last minute.

Alternately, the siblings could've had an offscreen discussion about it, with Conrad basically saying "no I don't want to take the crown, all yours", with plans to make it public later on.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

First, the game needs to acknowledge the retcon that is Conrad.  It feels like he was added at the last minute.

Alternately, the siblings could've had an offscreen discussion about it, with Conrad basically saying "no I don't want to take the crown, all yours", with plans to make it public later on.

Indeed. If they even half done something like that I wouldn't have any issue at all. I've always felt he was an underutilized element they added, but I'm frankly shocked just looking at things how underused he is. He has about a dozen speaking lines in the plot after you recruit him and just a single support. Maybe he really was just added last minute. But then they also went to the trouble of making CGs for masked Conrad saving Celica and even added in a whole new chapter. Though granted that chapter I think is just the bottom portion of Alm's attack on Zofia castle chapter, so probably not a tonne of effort to make (also has just a random Cantor boss when they could have thrown an enemy we know into the mix liked Jedah or Dolth).

[Seazas]

They have no reason to explore since Conrad continuously hid from responsibility and gave Celica the circlet too. He directly says that she's the princess and one to guide them. The Deliverance, the only ones who would care enough to talk about this, don't even see Conrad until the final map.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Seazas said:

They have no reason to explore since Conrad continuously hid from responsibility and gave Celica the circlet too. He directly says that she's the princess and one to guide them. The Deliverance, the only ones who would care enough to talk about this, don't even see Conrad until the final map.

Celica hid from her responsibility just as much as Conrad did.

[Seazas]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Celica hid from her responsibility just as much as Conrad did.

And Celica actually faces it by going out and journeying for her people and Mila, Conrad didn't come out until Celica did. 

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

And Celica actually faces it by going out and journeying for her people and Mila, Conrad didn't come out until Celica did. 

Yes, and now that both are out there's an open question about which one of them should be the new monarch. It's not like Celica revealing she's alive first means she just logically called Dibs. It might be the reason Conrad doesn't become king, but no one expresses that thought at all.

[Seazas]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes, and now that both are out there's an open question about which one of them should be the new monarch. It's not like Celica revealing she's alive first means she just logically called Dibs. It might be the reason Conrad doesn't become king, but no one expresses that thought at all.

There is no open question because no one on Celica's side cared enough for "who should be heir". The Deliverance was focused on those kinds of questions. And that group was separated from Celica's party the entire game. Celica doesn't call dibs, she's handed a significant position by default since Conrad keeps away from the Deliverance and gives Celica the royal circlet. All while displaying her as princess in front of the saints and priests in Mila's Temple (Conrad never reveals his identity in that scene either). Alm was fit to be the next ruler anyway since Conrad and Celica never tried to contest it. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Seazas

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Just now, Seazas said:

And Celica actually faces it by going out and journeying for her people and Mila, Conrad didn't come out until Celica did. 

Celica goes to see Mila as a Priestess, not a Princess. It's a mission of faith for her, not one of royal duty. Only after the end of Act III does Celica publicly adopt the title of Princess. And even then, there's the argument that her attempts at self-sacrifice are actually neglecting a royal duty to survive and lead.

By the same token, Conrad can be thought of working on his own mission - as the masked knight, who intervenes to ensure Celica's survival. He's hardly a coward who slinks away from duty.

[Seazas]

Just now, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Celica goes to see Mila as a Priestess, not a Princess. It's a mission of faith for her, not one of royal duty. Only after the end of Act III does Celica publicly adopt the title of Princess. And even then, there's the argument that her attempts at self-sacrifice are actually neglecting a royal duty to survive and lead.

By the same token, Conrad can be thought of working on his own mission - as the masked knight, who intervenes to ensure Celica's survival. He's hardly a coward who slinks away from duty.

...And she's recognized as princess the instant she makes it to the temple since she has the circlet. Characters like Irma were immediately calling her by her true name. Conrad isn't a coward either but it is FACT that he never pursued the throne and he kept his identity hidden unlike Celica. And that argument about "self sacrifice" is worthless headcanon that does not apply to the actual narrative or her state as ruler. She did all of that for the sake of Valentia since she was raised to believe that Valentia would fall apart without gods.

It doesn't even matter as Alm was already fit to lead and was going to get the throne. Especially when his princely state was revealed to everyone.

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Seazas said:

...And she's recognized as princess the instant she makes it to the temple since she has the circlet. Characters like Irma were immediately calling her by her true name. Conrad isn't a coward either but it is FACT that he never pursued the throne and he kept his identity hidden unlike Celica. And that argument about "self sacrifice" is worthless headcanon that does not apply to the actual narrative or her state as ruler. She did all of that for the sake of Valentia since she was raised to believe that Valentia would fall apart without gods.

It doesn't even matter as Alm was already fit to lead and was going to get the throne. Especially when his princely state was revealed to everyone.

No, Celica kept her identity hidden to. There's no difference between the two of them there. The only difference is that other people found out who Celica was before people found out who Conrad was. But once people know there is both a lost prince and a lost princess that are now not lost, the question about which of the two should be the next monarch is an open one the game doesn't address at all.

[Seazas]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

No, Celica kept her identity hidden to. There's no difference between the two of them there. The only difference is that other people found out who Celica was before people found out who Conrad was. But once people know there is both a lost prince and a lost princess that are now not lost, the question about which of the two should be the next monarch is an open one the game doesn't address at all.

No she didn't, Celica was recognized by Irma, Greith and others and Celica didn't bother to keep hiding it at that point. She fully embraces princess role while Conrad hides behind a mask all the way until Act 4... and he doesn't announce his identity to all of the residents like Celica did. He still uses his mask until sometime after the game's events. The game has no reason to randomly address it since the game went out of its way to establish that Alm will be the future king early Act 3. It's IMPOSSIBLE to anyway thanks to the structure of Echoes and the differing sides. Conrad already relinquished the ruling to Celica by giving her the circlet.

This is literally just nitpicking.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

No she didn't, Celica was recognized by Irma, Greith and others and Celica didn't bother to keep hiding it at that point. She fully embraces princess role while Conrad hides behind a mask all the way until Act 4... and he doesn't announce his identity to all of the residents like Celica did. He still uses his mask until sometime after the game's events. The game has no reason to randomly address it since the game went out of its way to establish that Alm will be the future king early Act 3. It's IMPOSSIBLE to anyway thanks to the structure of Echoes and the differing sides. Conrad already relinquished the ruling to Celica by giving her the circlet.

This is literally just nitpicking.

Yes, she fully embraces it at the end of Part 3, after having kept it a secret half her life. And Conrad similarly confesses to his identity half way through Part 4 when he saves Celica and even says he did so to help her shoulder the burden as royalty. Conrad never once says in the story that he doesn't want to be king and Celica never once asks him. Maybe he feels he isn't up to the job or is too lazy to do so, but him giving Celica her circlet doesn't actually reveal that at all. The circlet is a keepsake from her mother, not a royal crown of her father's he can even symbolically pass to her.

[Seazas]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes, she fully embraces it at the end of Part 3, after having kept it a secret half her life. And Conrad similarly confesses to his identity half way through Part 4 when he saves Celica and even says he did so to help her shoulder the burden as royalty. Conrad never once says in the story that he doesn't want to be king and Celica never once asks him. Maybe he feels he isn't up to the job or is too lazy to do so, but him giving Celica her circlet doesn't actually reveal that at all. The circlet is a keepsake from her mother, not a royal crown of her father's he can even symbolically pass to her.

And she reveals it and fully embraces princess while Conrad does not embrace his lineage or try and claim a royal role of his own. That is what happens in Echoes. Additionally, the circlet is specifically highlighted as a turning point for Celica (she even promotes) with an entire scene of Celica stepping up as role of princess. With her circlet being used to further identify her, it's the major reason the sluice gate is opened. It's a worthless nitpick to complain that Echoes didn't waste time on forced crap like that when Alm was set to be king and Celica was already revealed princess to a small amount of people.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

22 minutes ago, Seazas said:

It doesn't even matter as Alm was already fit to lead and was going to get the throne. Especially when his princely state was revealed to everyone.

The throne of Rigel, not Zofia. He has no claim to the Zofian throne - just as Celica has no claim to the Rigellian one. They become co-rulers of a united Valentia through marriage.

7 minutes ago, Seazas said:

No she didn't, Celica was recognized by Irma, Greith and others and Celica didn't bother to keep hiding it at that point. She fully embraces princess role while Conrad hides behind a mask all the way until Act 4... and he doesn't announce his identity to all of the residents like Celica did. He still uses his mask until sometime after the game's events. The game has no reason to randomly address it since the game went out of its way to establish that Alm will be the future king early Act 3. It's IMPOSSIBLE to anyway thanks to the structure of Echoes and the differing sides. Conrad already relinquished the ruling to Celica by giving her the circlet.

This wasn't a coronation. Celica was recognized as a Princess, not a Queen. The position of "Zofian monarch" is still vacant. Conrad ought to have a claim to it, as a son of the former King, but the game never acknowledges as much. If he doesn't want it, then fine. But he should say so, to Celica at the very least.

[Seazas]

11 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The throne of Rigel, not Zofia. He has no claim to the Zofian throne - just as Celica has no claim to the Rigellian one. They become co-rulers of a united Valentia through marriage.

This wasn't a coronation. Celica was recognized as a Princess, not a Queen. The position of "Zofian monarch" is still vacant. Conrad ought to have a claim to it, as a son of the former King, but the game never acknowledges as much. If he doesn't want it, then fine. But he should say so, to Celica at the very least.

Wow, the least you can do is recheck the dialogue before making wrong claims like that. It really makes me question the entire validity of this topic if people can't even check their sources. It wasn't Rigel as these all come from Act 3 before anyone knew of Alm's relation to Rigel. I'll give you some examples.

Fernand: But now you take for your future king a boy you don’t know from a gutter rat!

Luthier: Ha ha ha! And why not? You’re our king, aren’t you?

Clive: Heh heh. I am as shocked as you. It appears you are more fit to be king than I will ever be.

There's even exploration dialogue that acknowledges this:

Eerie Hermit: Fine work, child of fate. You have proven your strength. My master, too, has acknowledged you as worthy to inherit the kingdom. That royal shield is your proof. Use it well. And know that my master and I will watch over you always.

It doesn't need to be forced in. Alm was already on his way to be king, proven by the scripts, and Conrad made it abundantly clear that Celica was going to be the one to guide them all, not Conrad.

I highly doubt this nitpicking is valid at this point.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Seazas

[vanguard333]

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's almost as though IS set up "Celica's long-lost brother" as a backstory and motivation, without considering any of the implications that such a setup would... well, set up. I'd be fine with being given a reason for him to be second-in-line to Celica. Or, if he's first-in-line, I'm okay with him simply turning down the opportunity to rule. But... somebody has to at least bring it up in-story, right? Is nobody going to mention it?

It says something that Radiant Dawn handled something similar to this far better in the form of Lord Renning being alive with just the subtext within one base conversation; Renning's a knight, not a ruler, and he can see clearly that Crimea is in good hands with his niece Elincia as queen.

You don't need much to explain it; even just, "Nah; I don't want it" would've sufficed.

…Now that I think about it, Fates: Revelation handled it better by having Corrin ask Azura why she handed the throne over to them and her answering that she doesn't want it. Revelation handled something better than another FE game! That is a sentence I never thought I would say without any sarcasm!

Edited March 17, 2021 by vanguard333

[Sidereal Wraith]

Celica has the Brand of Mila, much like Alm's Brand of Duma, which to me always symbolised that she was destined to take the throne. Also it never seemed to me that Conrad wanted the throne to begin with, seeing that Celica would make a better leader/ruler then he would in the end. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Wraith