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Conrad's claim to the Throne


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47 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Does the story really need to though? I mean if you can come up with a reasonable explanation then I think it’s fine cause it’s not like it’s that big of a plot point or anything. It’s not like Vallite curse where a detailed explanation for how it works would make the story less confusing. The only thing something like that would add would be to add more depth to Conrad’s character. I mean granted he does need a little more fleshing out because as it stands he’s about as interesting as stale white bread(like the majority of SoV’s cast). But I dunno it just seems like a minor thing that wouldn’t change much even if it was added.

Like my philosophy towards these sorts of things is that if it doesn’t add anything of note to the story then it’s not needed. If it doesn’t add anything or make the story more interesting then I don’t see why it’s necessary.

Is that not enough of a reason? This is far from the biggest issue with Shadows of Valentia, but it is an incongruity that the game completely ignores and acknowledging it in basically many way would provide more interest to Conrad and potentially Celica too.

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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Is that not enough of a reason? This is far from the biggest issue with Shadows of Valentia, but it is an incongruity that the game completely ignores and acknowledging it in basically many way would provide more interest to Conrad and potentially Celica too.

Not really as Celica and especially Conrad don't give a shit about the throne in the game's events. There is no intrigue to be had, it would just feel forced since the game is centered around the gods, their absence and the war. Not "who gets the throneeee!?!??"

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13 hours ago, Seazas said:

Not really as Celica and especially Conrad don't give a shit about the throne in the game's events. There is no intrigue to be had, it would just feel forced since the game is centered around the gods, their absence and the war. Not "who gets the throneeee!?!??"

I mean to be fair adding an explanation for it wouldn’t bog down the story too much. At most it would be just be a couple lines of dialogue. Personally, it’s that kind of information that makes for good base conversation or support material. 

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15 hours ago, Seazas said:

Not really as Celica and especially Conrad don't give a shit about the throne in the game's events. There is no intrigue to be had, it would just feel forced since the game is centered around the gods, their absence and the war. Not "who gets the throneeee!?!??"

Hold on now. You can't say that "Conrad and Celica don't give a shit about the throne", and also that "Conrad presenting the Circlet to Celica is significant, because it represents Celica accepting her right to rule, and Conrad relinquishing it". That's speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Either Conrad and Celica both do care about who sits on the throne, and this manifests in their actions and choices... or they don't, and their struggle to save Valentia should be viewed as independent of determining royal succession.

Unless you're literally referring to the throne, as in, the chair. Which... it didn't look especially comfy, but maybe that's some people's thing? I dunno.

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3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean to be fair adding an explanation for it wouldn’t bog down the story too much. At most it would be just be a couple lines of dialogue. Personally, it’s that kind of information that makes for good base conversation or support material. 

I guess it would be good as a brief base conversation. I prefer the ones we have though since it was great seeing Conrad provide insight on underrated legends like Halcyon.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Hold on now. You can't say that "Conrad and Celica don't give a shit about the throne", and also that "Conrad presenting the Circlet to Celica is significant, because it represents Celica accepting her right to rule, and Conrad relinquishing it". That's speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Either Conrad and Celica both do care about who sits on the throne, and this manifests in their actions and choices... or they don't, and their struggle to save Valentia should be viewed as independent of determining royal succession.

Unless you're literally referring to the throne, as in, the chair. Which... it didn't look especially comfy, but maybe that's some people's thing? I dunno.

I'm talking as in... they don't care to make it a significant topic and prioritize worrying about that nonsense over their current goal. Celica is heavily prioritizing Mila than the throne.

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1 hour ago, Seazas said:

I'm talking as in... they don't care to make it a significant topic and prioritize worrying about that nonsense over their current goal. Celica is heavily prioritizing Mila than the throne.

I agree with that much. I interpret Conrad's desire to assist Celica as one to help her save the world from Jedah and the gang. Presumably, based on something Halcyon told him. He supports Celica as a leader, for sure - but that can be interpreted as a leader of their mission at that moment in time.

My point is, I don't believe "coming out" as a Princess, and saving the world (or helping Alm save the world, whatever), necessarily obligate Celica to the throne. She could easily do all that, and then encourage Conrad to take the throne of Zofia for himself, while she remains an accomplished Princess. And/or marries Alm, becoming Queen-Consort of Rigel. He's free to turn it down, I suppose, but it'd be nice to see him get some express agency in the matter. Or else, provide a rationale for why Celica would, when the dust settles, get priority to the throne over her elder brother.

Also, the real villain of Echoes? The sluice-gate keeper, clearly. He was willing to let Zofia face devestating floods, until Celica showed up with a sparkly tiara thingy. He, and the Silessian Mage Fighter who blocks Sigurd and friends from intervening to save Mahnya, can go straight to Ninja Hell.

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1 hour ago, Seazas said:

I guess it would be good as a brief base conversation. I prefer the ones we have though since it was great seeing Conrad provide insight on underrated legends like Halcyon.

Indeed Conrad's base conversations are somehow way better than his support conversations. But it wouldn't even necessarily have to be his Celica support. As I've said already, it would be an excellent topic of discussion between Conrad and Nomah, other ways it could very easily be acknowledged in the story include when Conrad first shows up, and Mae and Boey realize his royalty, one of them going "Wait does that mean he's the rightful heir?" only for Conrad to say he's just here to support Celica. Or when Celica is about to sacrifice herself and she says she entrusts Zofia to Conrad, only for him to disagree with his "You promised not to needlessly throw your life away" line. Or just let Conrad have a single line of dialogue with Halcyon when Celica finds out the importance of her brand. There's many, many ways this issue could be resolved, Shadows of Valentia isn't the most tightly written story in existence. Conrad only has about a dozen lines in the story after his recruitment, almost all of them fluff. And those are all just suggestions for including it without bogging down the story. It absolutely could have been included to enhance the story by having it be mounting pressure on Celica which contributes to her much mocked poor decision making in regards to Jedah.

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3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I agree with that much. I interpret Conrad's desire to assist Celica as one to help her save the world from Jedah and the gang. Presumably, based on something Halcyon told him. He supports Celica as a leader, for sure - but that can be interpreted as a leader of their mission at that moment in time.

My point is, I don't believe "coming out" as a Princess, and saving the world (or helping Alm save the world, whatever), necessarily obligate Celica to the throne. She could easily do all that, and then encourage Conrad to take the throne of Zofia for himself, while she remains an accomplished Princess. And/or marries Alm, becoming Queen-Consort of Rigel. He's free to turn it down, I suppose, but it'd be nice to see him get some express agency in the matter. Or else, provide a rationale for why Celica would, when the dust settles, get priority to the throne over her elder brother.

Also, the real villain of Echoes? The sluice-gate keeper, clearly. He was willing to let Zofia face devestating floods, until Celica showed up with a sparkly tiara thingy. He, and the Silessian Mage Fighter who blocks Sigurd and friends from intervening to save Mahnya, can go straight to Ninja Hell.

It makes no sense for Celica to make that offer when Valentia is unified as a whole. Celica was already given the position of power to rule by Conrad than just related to the mission. All Conrad has served is to be her bodyguard and protect her, he made that abundantly clear. I don't see the point in making Celica look stupider and worse by trying to put any of her responsibilities on Conrad or make her densely forget that Conrad put everything on her shoulders.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Indeed Conrad's base conversations are somehow way better than his support conversations. But it wouldn't even necessarily have to be his Celica support. As I've said already, it would be an excellent topic of discussion between Conrad and Nomah, other ways it could very easily be acknowledged in the story include when Conrad first shows up, and Mae and Boey realize his royalty, one of them going "Wait does that mean he's the rightful heir?" only for Conrad to say he's just here to support Celica. Or when Celica is about to sacrifice herself and she says she entrusts Zofia to Conrad, only for him to disagree with his "You promised not to needlessly throw your life away" line. Or just let Conrad have a single line of dialogue with Halcyon when Celica finds out the importance of her brand. There's many, many ways this issue could be resolved, Shadows of Valentia isn't the most tightly written story in existence. Conrad only has about a dozen lines in the story after his recruitment, almost all of them fluff. And those are all just suggestions for including it without bogging down the story. It absolutely could have been included to enhance the story by having it be mounting pressure on Celica which contributes to her much mocked poor decision making in regards to Jedah.

Mae and Boey had no reason to butt in when Conrad reveals himself to Celica. That would feel hamfisted as that was meant to be a moment shared between them, and it would be silly for the former two to randomly think about the throne deep in everything, especially when Mae and Boey already bent the knee to the one they presumed to be their ruler.

It wouldn't enhance anything as Conrad was never meant to be that important nor force some bullshit subplot about the throne.

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22 minutes ago, Seazas said:

It makes no sense for Celica to make that offer when Valentia is unified as a whole. Celica was already given the position of power to rule by Conrad than just related to the mission. All Conrad has served is to be her bodyguard and protect her, he made that abundantly clear. I don't see the point in making Celica look stupider and worse by trying to put any of her responsibilities on Conrad or make her densely forget that Conrad put everything on her shoulders.

Mae and Boey had no reason to butt in when Conrad reveals himself to Celica. That would feel hamfisted as that was meant to be a moment shared between them, and it would be silly for the former two to randomly think about the throne deep in everything, especially when Mae and Boey already bent the knee to the one they presumed to be their ruler.

It wouldn't enhance anything as Conrad was never meant to be that important nor force some bullshit subplot about the throne.

Mae and Boey already butt in when Conrad reveals himself. That's why I focused on them.

Celica: Heh. So that’s why you wore the mask?

Conrad: Well, it IS rather dashing, isn’t it?

Mae: Hah! You think THAT thing is—

Boey: Mae! He’s Celica’s older brother. You know, royalty?

Mae: Oh, right. Sorry. But man, he sure is a lot less moody once that mask comes off, huh? He’s like a completely different guy!

Boey: Almost as if he pretends to be someone else while in disguise. …Imagine that.

Mae: Oh yeah… Hee hee! Yeah, that was dumb.

 

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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Mae and Boey already butt in when Conrad reveals himself. That's why I focused on them.

Celica: Heh. So that’s why you wore the mask?

Conrad: Well, it IS rather dashing, isn’t it?

Mae: Hah! You think THAT thing is—

Boey: Mae! He’s Celica’s older brother. You know, royalty?

Mae: Oh, right. Sorry. But man, he sure is a lot less moody once that mask comes off, huh? He’s like a completely different guy!

Boey: Almost as if he pretends to be someone else while in disguise. …Imagine that.

Mae: Oh yeah… Hee hee! Yeah, that was dumb.

 

Mae and Boey don't barge in, they comment on things as they always do and Boey stops her from disrespecting. Complaining that they didn't force a disposable side character like Conrad to be more important in an established story about Alm and Celica is still ridiculous.

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9 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Mae and Boey don't barge in, they comment on things as they always do and Boey stops her from disrespecting. Complaining that they didn't force a disposable side character like Conrad to be more important in an established story about Alm and Celica is still ridiculous.

That can't be right, you said

42 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Mae and Boey had no reason to butt in when Conrad reveals himself to Celica. That would feel hamfisted as that was meant to be a moment shared between them

Didn't you say something about shifting the goalposts earlier? The fact is that Mae and Boey do butt in on the "moment shared between [Celica and Conrad]". So when they're butting in any way they might as well address something that is an incongruity in the story. As Conrad is the rightful heir of Zofia and the game doesn't seem to realize it at all. And the characters would have every reason to notice this as Celica's position as assumed future queen comes from her having no other siblings. When Leo becomes King at the end of Birthright that characters do comment asking why it isn't his elder sister Cordelia, this is something people would notice and would comment on. And Mae and Boey's whole existence is to basically be a Greek chorus.

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5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That can't be right, you said

Didn't you say something about shifting the goalposts earlier? The fact is that Mae and Boey do butt in on the "moment shared between [Celica and Conrad]". So when they're butting in any way they might as well address something that is an incongruity in the story. As Conrad is the rightful heir of Zofia and the game doesn't seem to realize it at all. And the characters would have every reason to notice this as Celica's position as assumed future queen comes from her having no other siblings. When Leo becomes King at the end of Birthright that characters do comment asking why it isn't his elder sister Cordelia, this is something people would notice and would comment on. And Mae and Boey's whole existence is to basically be a Greek chorus.

They don't butt in or talk to the characters in that scene, they comment in the peanut gallery like they always do. Similar to Gray and Tobin's: "it's THE Clive" in Alm's promotion into leadership.

"Celica can only have the position as there's no other siblings" nice headcanon that isn't ever touched upon in the game. She has the brand, emphasized in the timeline and Conrad does not. Fire Emblem itself has stories where the characters with something special in bloodline or destiny is prioritized more than their siblings. Like Marth getting the throne and Elice just chilling despite the latter being the elder. Celica is also a rightful heir and Conrad placed everything on her shoulders. With every single character in the game placing their eggs in Alm, Celica, or boths basket. Conrad himself literally does that. Conrad is not as important as you're trying to force him to be. What the story is trying to focus on has no room for forced Conrad "wHAT ABOUT THE THRONE" bs when it's already over with in the coronation scene. Celica literally wears the crown, sorry but your nitpicking is pointless. 

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22 minutes ago, Seazas said:

They don't butt in or talk to the characters in that scene, they comment in the peanut gallery like they always do. Similar to Gray and Tobin's: "it's THE Clive" in Alm's promotion into leadership.

Mae is directly addressing Conrad in her first comment. Boey has to reminder her that Conrad is royalty and she shouldn't be so crass with him, and she apologizes. Even though we don't have any lines of Conrad taking offense, they absolutely are part of the conversation and not just commenting from a far. If they were Mae would be saying "He thinks" and not "You think". They are for every meaning of the word, butting in, inuniverse and narratively.

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"Celica can only have the position as there's no other siblings" nice headcanon that isn't ever touched upon in the game. She has the brand, emphasized in the timeline and Conrad does not. Fire Emblem itself has stories where the characters with something special in bloodline or destiny is prioritized more than their siblings. Like Marth getting the throne and Elice just chilling despite the latter being the elder.

And Zofia has never had a lineage possessing the brand. I agree that it's a conceivable reason why people would accept Celica over Conrad, but saying that's the reason is headcanon as the game never says it. What actually is canon is that they live in a Feudal society with nothing suggesting they don't have regular feudal inheritance laws. Even Rigel, the supposedly much more meritocratic society follows standard feudalism.

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Celica is also a rightful heir

You can't have more than one rightful heir. Celica's an heir, but by ordinary succession laws she is not the rightful heir as she has an elder brother.

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and Conrad placed everything on her shoulders. With every single character in the game placing their eggs in Alm, Celica, or boths basket. Conrad himself literally does that. Conrad is not as important as you're trying to force him to be. What the story is trying to focus on has no room for forced Conrad "wHAT ABOUT THE THRONE" bs when it's already over with in the coronation scene. Celica literally wears the crown, sorry but your nitpicking is pointless. 

That's exactly the point. Conrad is not as important as he should be. He doesn't have to be important. Like I've said countless times I don't actually want him to be king. But they intentionally created a character that outranks Celica in he succession process and didn't seem to realize it at all. Call it a nitpick if you want, but it is an actual fact that exists in the game and does not make sense that could have been fixed with a single line somewhere in the game that they just never wrote, most likely because they never realised the implications of what they did in giving Celica and older brother.

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8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Mae is directly addressing Conrad in her first comment. Boey has to reminder her that Conrad is royalty and she shouldn't be so crass with him, and she apologizes. Even though we don't have any lines of Conrad taking offense, they absolutely are part of the conversation and not just commenting from a far. If they were Mae would be saying "He thinks" and not "You think". They are for every meaning of the word, butting in, inuniverse and narratively.

And Zofia has never had a lineage possessing the brand. I agree that it's a conceivable reason why people would accept Celica over Conrad, but saying that's the reason is headcanon. What actually is headcanon is that they live in a Feudal society with nothing suggesting they don't have regular feudal inheritance laws. Even Rigel, the supposedly much more meritocratic society follows standard feudalism.

That's exactly the point. Conrad is not as important as he's meant to be. He doesn't have to be important. Like I've said countless times I don't actually want him to be king. But they intentionally created a character that outranks Celica in he succession process and didn't seem to realize it at all. Call it a nitpick if you want, but it is an actual fact that exists in the game and does not make sense.

Again, it doesn't shift into any conversation about it with that minor dialogue sequence not played seriously. They're not butting in, Mae and Boey succeed in being the peanut gallery they've always have been.

Celica has done far more than Conrad, she's the one actively helping the people (with the people praising as such) and fought off the pirates. She came out of hiding to begin with purely for the sake of Valentia and everyone on it. She's the one in the hyped up prophecy which is a big deal in those kinds of times. Conrad, meanwhile, only came out for Celica. While Conrad always acknowledged Celica as the one fit to rule by doing the coronation and giving her the crown. Saying out of his own mouth that she's the only one that can save them all, all while continuing to let Celica lead their group. If the game was trying to paint Conrad and Celica equally they would've made Conrad play more of a part.

You're assuming that a japanese fantasy game has feudal laws btw, when this same game had a lazy incompetent king that threw everything into disarray with a random fucking "COMMONER" like Alm being placed as the next ruler instead of Clive or a noble. When it should be something else if we were going off realism. That's not counting the physical gods that run the entire continent and system to begin with. Fire Emblem is anime as hell and rarely touches upon realism to its fullest.

He doesn't outrank Celica since Conrad gave her the crown, Celica did more for the people with everyone praising and acknowledging her, and Conrad only wanting to protect Celica: not ascend to the throne like he says for Celica to do. It makes perfect sense and you're just breaking your back over something that doesn't matter.

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1 minute ago, Seazas said:

Again, it doesn't shift into any conversation about it with that minor dialogue sequence not played seriously. They're not butting in, Mae and Boey succeed in being the peanut gallery they've always have been.

And they could have done that while fixing a hole in the story.

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

Celica has done far more than Conrad, she's the one actively helping the people (with the people praising as such) and fought off the pirates. She came out of hiding to begin with purely for the sake of Valentia and everyone on it, Conrad only came out for Celica. While Conrad always acknowledged Celica as the one fit to rule by doing the coronation and giving her the crown. Saying out of his own mouth that she's the only one that can save them all, all while continuing to let Celica lead their group. If the game was trying to paint Conrad and Celica equally they would've made Conrad play more of a part.

And if it were some kind of presidential election I'd probably vote for Celica over Conrad for that. But it isn't an election, it's inheritance. Once again I'm not arguing that Conrad deserves to be King, but that the game should have acknowledged why he's not.

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

You're assuming that a japanese fantasy game has feudal laws btw, when this same game had a lazy incompetent king that threw everything into disarray with a random fucking "COMMONER" like Alm being placed as the next ruler instead of Clive or a noble. When it should be something else if we were going off realism. That's not counting the physical gods that run the entire continent and system to begin with. Fire Emblem is anime as hell and rarely touches upon realism to its fullest.

So you think Zofia doesn't have feudal inheritance laws? Point to me the line in the game that suggests they have some other way of deciding who gets what when someone dies. Because occums razor suggests they have regular inheritance with all the feudalism going around. I'm not asking the story to be realistic, I'm asking for it to make sense. And I posted a tonne of things they could have done in the OP that would have it make sense. If Zofia did have non standard inheritance laws, then cool, that's interesting, but the game never even hints at that anywhere.

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

He doesn't outrank Celica since Conrad gave her the crown, Celica did more for the people with everyone praising and acknowledging her, and Conrad only wanting to protect Celica: not ascend to the throne like he says for Celica to do. It makes perfect sense and you're just breaking your back over something that doesn't matter.

It only makes perfect sense if you just ignore it entirely. Actually examining it though, no, it doesn't make sense. The game provides no reason as to why Conrad is not the king nor does it provide any explanation as to why he thinks his younger sister should be monarch instead of him.

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6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And they could have done that while fixing a hole in the story.

And if it were some kind of presidential election I'd probably vote for Celica over Conrad for that. But it isn't an election, it's inheritance. Once again I'm not arguing that Conrad deserves to be King, but that the game should have acknowledged why he's not.

So you think Zofia doesn't have feudal inheritance laws? Point to me the line in the game that suggests they have some other way of deciding who gets what when someone dies. Because occums razor suggests they have regular inheritance with all the feudalism going around. I'm not asking the story to be realistic, I'm asking for it to make sense. And I posted a tonne of things they could have done in the OP that would have it make sense. If Zofia did have non standard inheritance laws, then cool, that's interesting, but the game never even hints at that anywhere.

It only makes perfect sense if you just ignore it entirely. Actually examining it though, no, it doesn't make sense. The game provides no reason as to why Conrad is not the king nor does it provide any explanation as to why he thinks his younger sister should be monarch instead of him.

There is no hole in the story, not perfect by any means but a random nitpick is not a gaping hole just because you don't like the canon reason.

Celica also has inheritance and takes priority by not only marrying Alm who caused the unification to begin with, Conrad did the coronation.

Nope, you made the claim of feudal inheritance, show me the proof of said inheritance. Because this is a fantasy game that doesn't take that kind of thing seriously, FE never really does and slaps it as an afterthought. They never go into depth about this and don't need to. Having literal immortal gods that also run Valentia changes a lot about the system by default. Clearly FE does not run standard stuff or Elice would be queen due to being the elder (and has a love interest herself in the form of Merric), while Marth is the younger one.

Conrad's character has it be that way, he's still as humble and shy as he's always been with his "masked variant" being a façade. Him gassing up Celica and saying for her to ascend the throne tells it all for us. Literally just use context clues the game lays in front of you. Conrad is not king because Alm and Celica naturally take priority for actually doing things for the people + Conrad willingly stepping down to begin with. Celica received the crown by no one else but Conrad.

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35 minutes ago, Seazas said:

There is no hole in the story, not perfect by any means but a random nitpick is not a gaping hole just because you don't like the canon reason.

I didn't say it was a gaping hole. It's rather ungaping as it's not a massive issue. Though the issue is preciesly because there is no canon reason.

35 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Celica also has inheritance and takes priority by not only marrying Alm who caused the unification to begin with, Conrad did the coronation.

Yes, as the younger child. And once again you seem to be thinking that I'm arguing that Conrad should be king, once again, I'm not, it's the fact that no one in universe has any awareness of his place above Celica in line of succession.

35 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Nope, you made the claim of feudal inheritance, show me the proof of said inheritance. Because this is a fantasy game that doesn't take that kind of thing seriously, FE never really does and slaps it as an afterthought. They never go into depth about this and don't need to. Having literal immortal gods that also run Valentia changes a lot about the system by default. Clearly FE does not run standard stuff or Elice would be queen due to being the elder (and has a love interest herself in the form of Merric), while Marth is the younger one.

Elice wouldn't be the queen due to being a woman. We never see any elder sisters in Archanea inherit above younger brothers. Nyna and Shiida both our heirs to the throne be they don't appear to have any siblings at all. If you do want an example of inheritance in Shadows of Valentia though, then how about every king being the child of a different king called Lima. Or Berkut being in line to the throne by being nephew of publicly childless Rudolf (not that I think Rigel should have had inheritance, as I think a meritocracy would have been better for the themes). Show me an example that Valentia does follow the exact rules you would expect it to follow given everything the game shows.

35 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Conrad's character has it be that way, he's still as humble and shy as he's always been with his "masked variant" being a façade. Him gassing up Celica and saying for her to ascend the throne tells it all for us. Literally just use context clues the game lays in front of you. Conrad is not king because Alm and Celica naturally take priority for actually doing things for the people + Conrad willingly stepping down to begin with. Celica received the crown by no one else but Conrad.

Let's take it for a second that you're right, the reason for Conrad not taking the throne is basically because he's a coward who doesn't want the responsibility, even though he dedicate his life to the kingdom as a civil servant. You're not right, but let's pretend you are. Why does no one question him about his decision?

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9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I didn't say it was a gaping hole. It's rather ungaping as it's not a massive issue. Though the issue is preciesly because there is no canon reason.

Yes, as the younger child. And once again you seem to be thinking that I'm arguing that Conrad should be king, once again, I'm not, it's the fact that no one in universe has any awareness of his place above Celica in line of succession.

Elice wouldn't be the queen due to being a woman. We never see any elder sisters in Archanea inherit above younger brothers. Nyna and Shiida both our heirs to the throne be they don't appear to have any siblings at all. If you do want an example of inheritance in Shadows of Valentia though, then how about every king being the child of a different king called Lima. Or Berkut being in line to the throne by being nephew of publicly childless Rudolf (not that I think Rigel should have had inheritance, as I think a meritocracy would have been better for the themes). Show me an example that Valentia does follow the exact rules you would expect it to follow given everything the game shows.

Let's take it for a second that you're right, the reason for Conrad not taking the throne is basically because he's a coward who doesn't want the responsibility, even though he dedicate his life to the kingdom as a civil servant. You're not right, but let's pretend you are. Why does no one question him about his decision?

There is a canon reason, Alm is the king. Stated by the game's characters multiple times even after his revealed relations to Rigel. It's said through Berkut that Alm not only gets Zofia under his belt but now Rigel. Another reason is Conrad wanting Celica to ascend the throne out of faith for her, you just don't accept it.

Conrad isn't a coward, he just doesn't want it. Instead he trusts Celica to handle it better which is fair as she always did far more than him. No one questions the decision since everyone's already on board with Alm and Celica, there is no questioning to be had.

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1 hour ago, Seazas said:

There is a canon reason, Alm is the king. Stated by the game's characters multiple times even after his revealed relations to Rigel. It's said through Berkut that Alm not only gets Zofia under his belt but now Rigel. Another reason is Conrad wanting Celica to ascend the throne out of faith for her, you just don't accept it.

Alm is king post game, not during game. And I can accept that Conrad wants Celica too be queen, what I don't accept is that there is no explanation for his actions in game.

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Conrad isn't a coward, he just doesn't want it. Instead he trusts Celica to handle it better which is fair as she always did far more than him. No one questions the decision since everyone's already on board with Alm and Celica, there is no questioning to be had.

If Conrad doesn't want it then that's fine, but the thing is he never actually says that and no one finds it relevant to ask him. His reasoning for not becoming King is as far as the game is concerned, a complete mystery. Youre the one who broight his personality into it by saying he was shy (something I don't think his dialogue really supports, he definitely changes his persona when wearing the mask, but I never got the impression he was shy, but I'll scour his handful of dialogue later to see what I can find).

Edited by Jotari
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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Alm is king post game, not during game. And I can accept that Conrad wants Celica too be queen, what I don't accept is that there is no explanation for his actions in game.

If Conrad doesn't want it then that's fine, but the thing is he never actually says that and no one finds it relevant to ask him. His reasoning for not becoming King is as far as the game is concerned, a complete mystery. Youre the one who broight his personality into it by saying he was shy (something I don't think his dialogue really supports, he definitely changes his persona when wearing the mask, but I never got the impression he was shy, but I'll scour his handful of dialogue later to see what I can find).

Alm is said to be the next king before the ending, further locked down when he's the prince of Rigel and left with both kingdoms to unify it. And you say there is no explanations but there is, they tie into his personality and fondness of Celica. It's really not hard to get, Jotari. Come on,

He makes it clear by doing the coronation and not having any sort of dialogue where he's in opposition of the current rulers. He prefers Celica to rule, which lines up with his actions and what he says to her.

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7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Even Rigel, the supposedly much more meritocratic society follows standard feudalism.

Didn't I showed already they actually put priority to brand-bearers?

Once again, check Valentia Year 366.

So it's not just strictly "standard".

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19 hours ago, Seazas said:

Alm is said to be the next king before the ending, further locked down when he's the prince of Rigel and left with both kingdoms to unify it. And you say there is no explanations but there is, they tie into his personality and fondness of Celica. It's really not hard to get, Jotari. Come on,

He makes it clear by doing the coronation and not having any sort of dialogue where he's in opposition of the current rulers. He prefers Celica to rule, which lines up with his actions and what he says to her.

Not by anyone on Celica's side. Your two points there are contradictory. You're saying Alm is the undisputed King that everyone is in agreement with, while also saying Celica was coronated.

16 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Didn't I showed already they actually put priority to brand-bearers?

Once again, check Valentia Year 366.

So it's not just strictly "standard".

Maybe for the royal family, maybe, being revealed in ancillary material to the game with no reference to Rudolf's brand in game,  Berkut's seeming lack of a brand doesn't make him ineligible for the throne before Alm shows up. But That aside Rigel does seem to be following standard feudal society, quite that one of the reason Fernand would rather go there than stay in a Zofia where commoners rise above their station. Not that Rigel here has any massive relevance to this conversation about Zofia.

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31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Not by anyone on Celica's side. Your two points there are contradictory. You're saying Alm is the undisputed King that everyone is in agreement with, while also saying Celica was coronated.

Maybe for the royal family, maybe, being revealed in ancillary material to the game with no reference to Rudolf's brand in game,  Berkut's seeming lack of a brand doesn't make him ineligible for the throne before Alm shows up. But That aside Rigel does seem to be following standard feudal society, quite that one of the reason Fernand would rather go there than stay in a Zofia where commoners rise above their station. Not that Rigel here has any massive relevance to this conversation about Zofia.

Alm is undisputed king by those on his side, thus no "qualms" with Conrad or Celica, not like it was a priority since defeating Duma took priority. Celica receiving the coronation by Conrad serves for her arc and answers why Conrad never pursued the throne: him preferring Celica instead of him. It eventually lines up since Alm and Celica marry and rule together. Both potential rulers that probably would've ruled Rigel and Zofia separately (Alm willingly giving Zofia to Celica going off what he says in their argument in Chapter 2) if they disagreed, but they don't.

Edited by Seazas
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5 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Alm is undisputed king by those on his side, thus no "qualms" with Conrad or Celica, not like it was a priority since defeating Duma took priority. Celica receiving the coronation by Conrad serves for her arc and answers why Conrad never pursued the throne: him preferring Celica instead of him. It eventually lines up since Alm and Celica marry and rule together. Both potential rulers that probably would've ruled Rigel and Zofia separately (Alm willingly giving Zofia to Celica going off what he says in their argument in Chapter 2) if they disagreed, but they don't.

If Alm is undisputed king (he's not, it's quite disputed be Fernand) then why is Conrad telling Celica to ascend to the throne?

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