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Conrad's claim to the Throne


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8 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Yes it does, Conrad not having the throne nor being challenged about that is made clear as he told Celica to already. Which she long accepted... in front of everyone, with all of the common people only seeing the princess who cared enough to take the mantle. Celica being the more suitable leader is exactly why the game doesn't make a big deal over Conrad, as he's objectively the lesser choice with Conrad himself placing his faith in Celica. That's not counting the fact that Zofia was already a hot mess and busy with the war, terrors, pirates and all of this shit. There is no room in the game for some forced discussion and giving Echoes guff for not forcing a controversial character to detract from the main plot is just nuts, dude.

There is ample opportunity to do, I've given plenty of examples, you're just ignoring that. I think mostly because of our previous conversation with the Avatar, which you see this as an extension of since it came up there. It's about the only explanation for why you're being so passionate about this despite your lack of an actual argument. But leaving that aside, even assuming there was absolutely no way at all they could possibly address Conrad's status as the rightful heir in the game (which is absolutely no the case, but we'll pretend for a second it is), Shadows of Valentia has a tonne of tie in material where they are free to explain or clarify anything they want at all. But they didn't, they don't make mention of it in any of the supplementary materials I have found. The issue here isn't that the game couldn't do anything, it's that they invented an elder brother for Celica without realizing the implications of her having an elder brother actually has for her story.

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On 4/2/2021 at 5:08 AM, Jotari said:

There is ample opportunity to do, I've given plenty of examples, you're just ignoring that. I think mostly because of our previous conversation with the Avatar, which you see this as an extension of since it came up there. It's about the only explanation for why you're being so passionate about this despite your lack of an actual argument. But leaving that aside, even assuming there was absolutely no way at all they could possibly address Conrad's status as the rightful heir in the game (which is absolutely no the case, but we'll pretend for a second it is), Shadows of Valentia has a tonne of tie in material where they are free to explain or clarify anything they want at all. But they didn't, they don't make mention of it in any of the supplementary materials I have found. The issue here isn't that the game couldn't do anything, it's that they invented an elder brother for Celica without realizing the implications of her having an elder brother actually has for her story.

Your examples are worthless junk. Boey and Mae randomly bringing it up when they already saw Conrad relinquish the throne opportunity to Celica is out of character nonsense for them to do. They also DON'T give a shit about that kind of discussion, far more focused on protecting Celica and going home. But nice projection and declaring any disagreeing point with you as "lack of argument" just because you want to cover your ears ignore it. Conrad is not important, Celica secures everything and did far more than him. They don't need to waste time and development for a character that only presents himself as a knight to protect Celica. Celica was already ascending the throne, they don't need to address "rightful heir" when Celica is just as, if not more, worthy as I already made clear. The characters that talk about that kind of crap are far away from Conrad and are on Alm's route, where they accept Alm as their leader. 

They're not going to change the entirety of the game's structure just because you feel like nitpicking.

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1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Your examples are worthless junk. Boey and Mae randomly bringing it up when they already saw Conrad relinquish the throne opportunity to Celica is out of character nonsense for them to do. They also DON'T give a shit about that kind of discussion, far more focused on protecting Celica and going home.

What makes you think it would be so strange for Boey and Mae to talk about who the rightful heir is? Do you honestly find their characters so uninvolved that the concept of them talking about the rightful heir is something they'd never actually say?

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But nice projection and declaring any disagreeing point with you as "lack of argument" just because you want to cover your ears ignore it. Conrad is not important, Celica secures everything and did far more than him. They don't need to waste time and development for a character that only presents himself as a knight to protect Celica. Celica was already ascending the throne, they don't need to address "rightful heir" when Celica is just as, if not more, worthy as I already made clear. The characters that talk about that kind of crap are far away from Conrad and are on Alm's route, where they accept Alm as their leader. 

You talking about me ignoring stuff when you're the one who keeps on going on about Celica being more worthy. How many times do I actually have to say it's not about which one of them is more worthy for the throne? It's about the fact that Conrad is, completely and indisputably, the rightful heir. Not the more worthy heir, not the more suitable heir, not the more competent heir, but the more legitimate heir. He is, that is a matter of fact. Conrad has first dibs on the throne and the game does not seem to be aware of that fact at all.

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They're not going to change the entirety of the game's structure just because you feel like nitpicking.

When did I ever suggest the structure of the game be changed? This is why I say you don't have an argument, because you're arguing over me. You're not actually listening to what I'm saying at all. And you've completely consumed this thread with your responses that lack any merit to the discussion at hand.

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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's about the fact that Conrad is, completely and indisputably, the rightful heir. Not the more worthy heir, not the more suitable heir, not the more competent heir, but the more legitimate heir. He is, that is a matter of fact. Conrad has first dibs on the throne and the game does not seem to be aware of that fact at all.

And there you go again. The game doesn't know but apparently you do. So where is your evidence? Lukas' brother anecdote only tells us Zofian nobility follows standard primogeniture, but as the Valentia Accordion reveals, we know royalty can have their own rules.

Rigelian royalty operates on Primogeniture but by Duma's decree, brand-bearers override this. That's why Rudolf became King despite not being the direct-descendant of Rigel III. Berkut's fears Alm being Rudolf's son means he can no longer be king tells us that standard Primogeniture still applies once we get past the Brand priority. Though regardless, Alm having a brand means he'd be the next King anyway, him being the son of Rudolf or not. So Berkut was screwed on that front anyway. So Rigelian royalty has its own amendment in the rules in likely contrast to Rigelian nobility, though admittedly we know nothing of it either. But Rigelian royalty having its own rules in the matters of succession is a fact.

As it stands, we have no evidence in favor or against that this discrepancy exists in Zofia as well. So the claim that Conrad is more legitimate just because he's older means nothing without knowing the full rules of Zofian royalty succession laws. As shown with Rigel, they can potentially be different from the nobility's, so Lukas' story tells us nothing on that front.

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29 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

And there you go again. The game doesn't know but apparently you do. So where is your evidence? Lukas' brother anecdote only tells us Zofian nobility follows standard primogeniture, but as the Valentia Accordion reveals, we know royalty can have their own rules.

Rigelian royalty operates on Primogeniture but by Duma's decree, brand-bearers override this. That's why Rudolf became King despite not being the direct-descendant of Rigel III. Berkut's fears Alm being Rudolf's son means he can no longer be king tells us that standard Primogeniture still applies once we get past the Brand priority. Though regardless, Alm having a brand means he'd be the next King anyway, him being the son of Rudolf or not. So Berkut was screwed on that front anyway. So Rigelian royalty has its own amendment in the rules in likely contrast to Rigelian nobility, though admittedly we know nothing of it either. But Rigelian royalty having its own rules in the matters of succession is a fact.

As it stands, we have no evidence in favor or against that this discrepancy exists in Zofia as well. So the claim that Conrad is more legitimate just because he's older means nothing without knowing the full rules of Zofian royalty succession laws. As shown with Rigel, they can potentially be different from the nobility's, so Lukas' story tells us nothing on that front.

My evidence is the game saying elder siblings inherit and detailing is nothing about the brand's role in things. Like I said previously, no one, not a single person, takes Alm's possession of the brand to mean he is the rightful ruler of Rigel. It all comes from being Rudolf's son. We have cases in the series, most noteably in Three Houses, where we see that brands are a standard for inheritance, but Shadows of Valentia doesn't say that. Anywhere. It doesn't even say Rudolf has the brand in game (though it does make sense that he has it). In fact everything in the game about the brand suggests it's exceedingly rare. Jeddah says that Celica is "born of Zofian royal blood and marked by the brand" as if these are two separate things that are making her soul double special, and not as if it's one thing that naturally follows the other. Halcyon asks Celica to question why she was even born with the brand, as if it's not a standard thing for her family to have. Mycen is shocked to see that baby Alm has the Brand, instead of congratulating his friend on having a baby with a trait everyone would be hoping he would have. Like you say, we have no evidence one way or the other to assume Zofia h as any kind of brand change to the rules. If it does, it's the game's job to tell us. Or at the very least the Valentian accord can tell us by saying something like "Conrad was ineligible for the throne because his younger sister held the brand." The brand being the thing making Celica the rightful ruler of Zofia is as decent an explanation as the next, but it's not actually an explanation the game ever attempts to provide.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

My evidence is the game saying elder siblings inherit and detailing is nothing about the brand's role in things. Like I said previously, no one, not a single person, takes Alm's possession of the brand to mean he is the rightful ruler of Rigel. It all comes from being Rudolf's son. We have cases in the series, most noteably in Three Houses, where we see that brands are a standard for inheritance, but Shadows of Valentia doesn't say that. Anywhere. It doesn't even say Rudolf has the brand in game (though it does make sense that he has it). In fact everything in the game about the brand suggests it's exceedingly rare. Jeddah says that Celica is "born of Zofian royal blood and marked by the brand" as if these are two separate things that are making her soul double special, and not as if it's one thing that naturally follows the other. Halcyon asks Celica to question why she was even born with the brand, as if it's not a standard thing for her family to have. Like you say, we have no evidence one way or the other to assume Zofia h as any kind of brand change to the rules. If it does, it's the game's job to tell us. Or at the very least the Valentian accord can tell us by saying something like "Conrad was ineligible for the throne because his younger sister held the brand."

Thing is, not many people are aware of Alm's brand.

It's said in the Accordion. Just because it's not in the game itself doesn't mean it's not valid.

True, they don't tell us directly, but the game does say he can use Falchion. And we know it's restricted in who can use it. So at the least, we can easily infer Rudolf has to have a brand of his own, in order to use Falchion.

True, brands being rare even among the blood-bonded is not a thing in dispute. A peculiar rule, considering a thousand years ago in Jugdral that was not how it worked, but well, that's that and this' this.

Exactly. We don't have the full picture. It's alright to conjecture about it, but to start treating them as if fact when we don't have the evidence to back it up is a problem.

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21 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Thing is, not many people are aware of Alm's brand.

Alm's brand is not all that hard to see (some how, despite the gloves). Zeke and Berkut both notice it immediately. So a lot of people know he has a mark on his hand, it's just that it's not widely known what it means. And that's further suggestion it plays no part in their inheritance laws given the public will wonder why the royal family keep doing things differently to everyone else.

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It's said in the Accordion. Just because it's not in the game itself doesn't mean it's not valid.

That's true, and I appreciate that they mentioned it in the Accordion. But for 1)They only say that about Rudolf and not Conrad. 2)This is noted as a specific event, which suggests it's not a trend (Rudolf is specifically picked as the successor while the previous King is still alive). 3)They specifically say why and it's because of Duma's ideals, they could have said Valentia prefers brand bearers on the throne, but they specifically say it's Duma who wants it. Given both the mechanics of the brand (ie it being rare) and the fact that this is mentioned to us the way it is, and that it only applies to Rigel, I see no reason to take this as a given that it also applies to Zofia. In fact we outright know Lima wasn't bothered by Celica's supposed death at the villa.

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True, brands being rare even among the blood-bonded is not a thing in dispute. A peculiar rule, considering a thousand years ago in Jugdral that was not how it worked, but well, that's that and this' this.

I'm not sure what you mean in that second half, but talking about how rare the brand is was linked to the idea that a standard rule wouldn't develop for such a rare case.

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Exactly. We don't have the full picture. It's alright to conjecture about it, but to start treating them as if fact when we don't have the evidence to back it up is a problem.

Well that's the entire problem, we don't know the full picture. And they could have given us the full picture by explaining why Conrad is not considered the rightful heir. If not in the game then at the very least in the Valentian Accordion where they showed themself perfectly willing to provide additional lore.

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21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Alm's brand is not all that hard to see (some how, despite the gloves). Zeke and Berkut both notice it immediately. So a lot of people know he has a mark on his hand, it's just that it's not widely known what it means. And that's further suggestion it plays no part in their inheritance laws given the public will wonder why the royal family keep doing things differently to everyone else.

My guess is that the Duma Faithful ensured the populace accepted Rudolf's appointment as heir, saying it was Duma's will. Heck, could've been Duma himself coming out to make the statement, since he was still of sound mind. Ultimately, the fact that Rudolf is King now means the populace did accept this, or any protests were easily squashed or just insignificant enough they were ignored. Present day Rigel has no signs its going through a succession crisis, so whoever was Rigel III's child and direct descendant is either no longer alive or were killed off. Or Rigel III didn't had children.

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's true, and I appreciate that they mentioned it in the Accordion. But for 1)They only say that about Rudolf and not Conrad. 2)This is noted as a specific event, which suggests it's not a trend (Rudolf is specifically picked as the successor while the previous King is still alive). 3)They specifically say why and it's because of Duma's ideals, they could have said Valentia prefers brand bearers on the throne, but they specifically say it's Duma who wants it. Given both the mechanics of the brand (ie it being rare) and the fact that this is mentioned to us the way it is, and that it only applies to Rigel, I see no reason to take this as a given that it also applies to Zofia. In fact we outright know Lima wasn't bothered by Celica's supposed death at the villa.

Exactly. The point was that with Zofia we don't have much evidence to go with.

Well, to be fair, with what we're told of Lima IV, he's very likely too hedonist to care if all his children were killed since he can just father more.

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm not sure what you mean in that second half, but talking about how rare the brand is was linked to the idea that a standard rule wouldn't develop for such a rare case.

That brands were more common to show up in Jugdral. Denoting Major blood wielders, and so long it got passed down, there was definitely at least one per generation. Considering it was the work of the same kind of dragons, since Jugdral and Valentia are in the same world and all, it's peculiar that Duma and Mila's brands are more restricted.

Just a personal observation.

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well that's the entire problem, we don't know the full picture. And they could have given us the full picture by explaining why Conrad is not considered the rightful heir. If not in the game then at the very least in the Valentian Accordion where they showed themself perfectly willing to provide additional lore.

Yeah, no disputing that either.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

What makes you think it would be so strange for Boey and Mae to talk about who the rightful heir is? Do you honestly find their characters so uninvolved that the concept of them talking about the rightful heir is something they'd never actually say?

You talking about me ignoring stuff when you're the one who keeps on going on about Celica being more worthy. How many times do I actually have to say it's not about which one of them is more worthy for the throne? It's about the fact that Conrad is, completely and indisputably, the rightful heir. Not the more worthy heir, not the more suitable heir, not the more competent heir, but the more legitimate heir. He is, that is a matter of fact. Conrad has first dibs on the throne and the game does not seem to be aware of that fact at all.

When did I ever suggest the structure of the game be changed? This is why I say you don't have an argument, because you're arguing over me. You're not actually listening to what I'm saying at all. And you've completely consumed this thread with your responses that lack any merit to the discussion at hand.

No they would not, as they already bent the knee for Celica. They saw their friend accepting the throne, they have no reason to try and put up Conrad or talk about some random nonsense when Conrad already says that she can save this world, not him. They are going to support Celica and stick with that, as they should. The current focus was Mila, not the throne and the heir stuff that Mae and Boey blatantly don't care as much about. Clive? Sure whatever but Boey and Mae? The ones who go back home and stay out of the affairs? No.

And you ignore that being worthy is a significant thing. If it's clear to the playerbase that Celica is more worthy then they have no reason to force a throne drama or discussion with Conrad. Not when the story was about Alm and Celica and their struggle with the gods, not the damn throne. Conrad already gave the crown to Celica and that's that. Accept it rather than making a mountain out of a molehill.

Your discussion has long started to lose its worth when it's nothing but a nitpick. Trying to complain at the game because they didn't randomly force Conrad to be more important than he needed to be. Being the main character's sibling does not grant you dibs to inflate one's importance, Conrad already placed his faith in Celica in front of everyone, therefore nullifying some random "more legitimate heir" bullshit by default. As Conrad blatantly doesn't want the throne and directly says for Celica to take it.

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41 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

My guess is that the Duma Faithful ensured the populace accepted Rudolf's appointment as heir, saying it was Duma's will. Heck, could've been Duma himself coming out to make the statement, since he was still of sound mind. Ultimately, the fact that Rudolf is King now means the populace did accept this, or any protests were easily squashed or just insignificant enough they were ignored. Present day Rigel has no signs its going through a succession crisis, so whoever was Rigel III's child and direct descendant is either no longer alive or were killed off. Or Rigel III didn't had children.

Would have been a lot more fun if Berkut was RIgel III's son (or grandson) instead. Then Rudolf wouldn't be having a random nephew and this lore could be part of the game. It would also make Alm appearing be an extra kick in the teeth for Berkut as his line had been ousted by a brand bearer showing up out of nowhere a second time. And of course Rudolf would come across as a bit less scummy in his utter fucking over of Berkut if Berkut was his second cousin once removed or something rather than his siblings son.

That been of wishing aside, I wasn't intending to suggest there was or should have been riots by the people or anything. My main point is how this is presented as a specific instance and not a trend. I don't have any issue with this because it's addressed, albeit, in lore, but then it doesn't actually present itself in the game as an issue so it being all lore is okay. I'd be having issues though if Berkut was the son or grandson of the previous Emperor yet Rudolf was in charge with no clarification as to why or how the two are related.

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Exactly. The point was that with Zofia we don't have much evidence to go with.

Well, to be fair, with what we're told of Lima IV, he's very likely too hedonist to care if all his children were killed since he can just father more.

Well that's not likely, it's plain fact. The Accordion says he didn't care that his kids died because he knew he could produce more heirs. So one of them having the brand wasn't seen as particularly important for their succession.

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That brands were more common to show up in Jugdral. Denoting Major blood wielders, and so long it got passed down, there was definitely at least one per generation. Considering it was the work of the same kind of dragons, since Jugdral and Valentia are in the same world and all, it's peculiar that Duma and Mila's brands are more restricted.

Just a personal observation.

Just dipping into Jugdral briefly, while a big stink is made in Three Houses about how only brand inheritors can inherit the house title and lands, I don't think we ever actually see this as also true at any point in Jugdral, despite simultaneously knowing it's not always the eldest child who gets the brand. We do have a singular case of the oppsoite, being Hezul's children given Chagall's family line inherited the Kingdom while Eldigan's family line got the holy blood. But given how those decisions would have been made when no one knew about the generational aspect of holy blood (or possibly Hezul's eldest child was raised to be heir before Hezul even got holy blood at all) it couldn't really be seen as a standard for the present day Jugdral. We do know at least that a portion of the population see Eldigan as king material, though that might be more out of just preferring someone who's not Chagall.

Yeah, nothing particularly relevant there, I just think it's kind of interesting that with how dynastical Genealogy of the Holy War is (even more so than Three Houses), this just somehow never manages to come up.

As for why it's rarer in Valentia, well if I recall the monarchs of Valentia were given it to fight off pirates, so maybe they just got a smaller does to begin with compared to the Cruasders and the first Exalt who had to fight off rogue dragons.

13 minutes ago, Seazas said:

No they would not, as they already bent the knee for Celica. They saw their friend accepting the throne, they have no reason to try and put up Conrad or talk about some random nonsense when Conrad already says that she can save this world, not him. They are going to support Celica and stick with that, as they should.

They saw Celica accepting her identity as Princess and swore to serve her. Conrad never actually says anything about the throne in the Japanese version near as I can tell (and I had a more fluent Japanese speaker than I to double check me). That's why her class is Princess and not Queen. And even if they are now fully working under the assumption that Celica is their monarch, wouldn't that give them more concern to be worried about someone showing up who has a better claim than her? Wouldn't that warrant a question at least?

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And you ignore that being worthy is a significant thing. If it's clear to the playerbase that Celica is more worthy then they have no reason to force a throne drama or discussion with Conrad. Not when the story was about Alm and Celica and their struggle with the gods, not the damn throne. Conrad already gave the crown to Celica and that's that. Accept it rather than making a mountain out of a molehill.

If this was about who I think should be the monarch in the plot then that'd be relevant, but it's not, because that's not what the conversation is about. You're trying to make it about that because you have no defense for the fact that Conrad is the rightful heir.

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Your discussion has long been worthless when it's nothing but a nitpick. Trying to bitch at the game because they didn't randomly force Conrad to be more important than he needed to be. Being the main character's sibling does not grant you dibs to inflate one's importance,

It does give you dibs if you're the elder sibling and you live in a society with primogeniture, which Conrad does.

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Conrad already placed his faith in Celica in front of everyone, therefore nullifying some random "more legitimate heir" bullshit by default. As Conrad blatantly doesn't want the throne and directly says for Celica to take it.

Show me the line where Conrad blatantly says he doesn't want the throne. If it's in there then that's the issue solved. But I've gone over the script quite a few times and I don't see it. Fates has lines like that, hence why there's no conversation about that game.

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58 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Would have been a lot more fun if Berkut was RIgel III's son (or grandson) instead. Then Rudolf wouldn't be having a random nephew and this lore could be part of the game. It would also make Alm appearing be an extra kick in the teeth for Berkut as his line had been ousted by a brand bearer showing up out of nowhere a second time. And of course Rudolf would come across as a bit less scummy in his utter fucking over of Berkut if Berkut was his second cousin once removed or something rather than his siblings son.

That been of wishing aside, I wasn't intending to suggest there was or should have been riots by the people or anything. My main point is how this is presented as a specific instance and not a trend. I don't have any issue with this because it's addressed, albeit, in lore, but then it doesn't actually present itself in the game as an issue so it being all lore is okay. I'd be having issues though if Berkut was the son or grandson of the previous Emperor yet Rudolf was in charge with no clarification as to why or how the two are related.

Well that's not likely, it's plain fact. The Accordion says he didn't care that his kids died because he knew he could produce more heirs. So one of them having the brand wasn't seen as particularly important for their succession.

Just dipping into Jugdral briefly, while a big stink is made in Three Houses about how only brand inheritors can inherit the house title and lands, I don't think we ever actually see this as also true at any point in Jugdral, despite simultaneously knowing it's not always the eldest child who gets the brand. We do have a singular case of the oppsoite, being Hezul's children given Chagall's family line inherited the Kingdom while Eldigan's family line got the holy blood. But given how those decisions would have been made when no one knew about the generational aspect of holy blood (or possibly Hezul's eldest child was raised to be heir before Hezul even got holy blood at all) it couldn't really be seen as a standard for the present day Jugdral. We do know at least that a portion of the population see Eldigan as king material, though that might be more out of just preferring someone who's not Chagall.

Yeah, nothing particularly relevant there, I just think it's kind of interesting that with how dynastical Genealogy of the Holy War is (even more so than Three Houses), this just somehow never manages to come up.

As for why it's rarer in Valentia, well if I recall the monarchs of Valentia were given it to fight off pirates, so maybe they just got a smaller does to begin with compared to the Cruasders and the first Exalt who had to fight off rogue dragons.

They saw Celica accepting her identity as Princess and swore to serve her. Conrad never actually says anything about the throne in the Japanese version near as I can tell (and I had a more fluent Japanese speaker than I to double check me). That's why her class is Princess and not Queen.

If this was about who I think should be the monarch in the plot then that'd be relevant, but it's not, because that's not what the conversation is about. You're trying to make it about that because you have no defense for the fact that Conrad is the rightful heir.

It does give you dibs if you're the elder sibling and you live in a society with primogeniture, which Conrad does.

Show me the line where Conrad blatantly says he doesn't want the throne. If it's in there then that's the issue solved. But I've gone over the script quite a few times and I don't see it. Fates has lines like that, hence why there's no conversation about that game.

Conrad gave her the crown and told her to ascend, Mae and Boey have no qualms. Forcing them to magically care about Conrad, someone they barely know, and try to argue/ask about true heir shit is silly and will always be silly.

It's not relevant, never has been, never will be, cope with the fact that it's already been taken care of and made clear. Your nitpicks are worthless. Celica is the important heir, not Conrad as he doesn't act like one and pushes everything onto Celica.

Not when Echoes has zero focus on that. Zofia's already in chaos and focused on the war, any discussion about the future is irrelevant as Alm takes charge as ultimate leader and unifies Valentia. No one's going to randomly focus on a mysterious Conrad that they don't know is alive until the game is over.

Conrad already says for Celica to ascend the throne and gives her the crown. If that isn't enough for you to put it together than that's just the work of your behavior and being petty over miniscule details. 

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16 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Conrad gave her the crown and told her to ascend, Mae and Boey have no qualms. Forcing them to magically care about Conrad, someone they barely know, and try to argue/ask about true heir shit is silly and will always be silly.

The fact that they barely know him is all the more reason to be concerned.

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It's not relevant, never has been, never will be, cope with the fact that it's already been taken care of and made clear. Your nitpicks are worthless. Celica is the important heir, not Conrad as he doesn't act like one and pushes everything onto Celica.

See, I can have an actual discussion with Acacia Sgt about this matter. He provides an actual argument to discuss. Otservia too is at least saying something. You're just shutting your ears to my actual points and tell me I'm wrong without providing  meaningful evidence.

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Not when Echoes has zero focus on that. Zofia's already in chaos and focused on the war, any discussion about the future is irrelevant as Alm takes charge as ultimate leader and unifies Valentia. No one's going to randomly focus on a mysterious Conrad that they don't know is alive until the game is over.

On the contrary Celica's army finds out he's alive long before the game is over. And the Valentia Accordion doesn't even need concern itself with that.

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Conrad already says for Celica to ascend the throne and gives her the crown. If that isn't enough for you to put it together than that's just the work of your behavior and being petty over miniscule details. 

Yeah, not in Japanese. You did just literally outright ignore me saying that. And even in English we don't have any explanation of why he's giving up his inheritance, or even an acknowledgement that he's even doing that. The game never clarifies that Conrad is the rightful heir who doesn't want the throne and passes it on to Celica, and in not doing so it comes across far more like they just plain didn't realize they were making Conrad the rightful heir.

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On 3/30/2021 at 12:52 PM, Jotari said:

If it's impossible to put in the game, then yes, but if that actually is a part of the story, then it should actually be in the story. In this case in particular if they wanted to suggest some alternate inheritance laws were at work, they absolutely could have. I've given multiple examples of how they could have easily done so without bogging down the story. All it would take is a single line. You say least important aspect, and to some extent I might agree (it would obviously depend on the story), but it still is an aspect. Any fictional world is going to work under conditions of "Like reality unless noted". That is to say the world functions like the world familiar to the audience, except for all the parts that are shown to not. If there's an aspect of the constructed world that is different, well it's story's job to show that. You can't have things that are pertinent to how the world functions yet never actually acknowledge the existence of it. That just makes the writing look sloppy as if the creator never even considered how these people exist in this world.

Now all that being said, it is moot to the conversation at hand, as Zofia does function under standard primogeniture.

I mean there is a such thing as show don’t tell though. There are some things the author doesn’t need to outright explain because that can be inferred through context clues and other subtle pieces of information. Not everything about a story’s world needs to be info dumped to the reader like they’re children. Hell, even stories made for children understand this(i refer you to the entirety of shounen jump’s library for this). Sometimes information like this isn’t necessary to explain because it’s not important. Also every story, especially fantasy, stories all operate under their own rules which are never 1:1 with reality. You’re correct in that it’s a story’s job to explain those rules but the only time that becomes a problem is when a story breaks its own rules not the rules of reality. Stories will never fully follow the rules of reality. They construct their own rules within their own world. If the story’s world is established to have some grounding in reality then yes those differences should be explained to an extent. But stuff like a character bleeding gallons of blood only for them to be completely fine afterwards is not something that needs to be explained as it was an exaggeration for the sake of dramatic or comedic effect. I could go but I’m rambling at this point and I’d rather not derail the thread.

tl;dr I both agree and disagree with you here. There’s just a lot more nuance to that discussion than what you claim.

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2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean there is a such thing as show don’t tell though. There are some things the author doesn’t need to outright explain because that can be inferred through context clues and other subtle pieces of information. Not everything about a story’s world needs to be info dumped to the reader like they’re children. Hell, even stories made for children understand this(i refer you to the entirety of shounen jump’s library for this). Sometimes information like this isn’t necessary to explain because it’s not important. Also every story, especially fantasy, stories all operate under their own rules which are never 1:1 with reality. You’re correct in that it’s a story’s job to explain those rules but the only time that becomes a problem is when a story breaks its own rules not the rules of reality. Stories will never fully follow the rules of reality. They construct their own rules within their own world. If the story’s world is established to have some grounding in reality then yes those differences should be explained to an extent. But stuff like a character bleeding gallons of blood only for them to be completely fine afterwards is not something that needs to be explained as it was an exaggeration for the sake of dramatic or comedic effect. I could go but I’m rambling at this point and I’d rather not derail the thread.

tl;dr I both agree and disagree with you here. There’s just a lot more nuance to that discussion than what you claim.

I agree that subtly can be used. Let me grab an example. Metroid Other M, highly lampooned game, mostly for good reason. In that game there is a traitor in the group killing off other members one by one. By the end of the story the traitor has been dealt with, but Samus never actually discovers who the traitor was. However a keen eyed player can pick out clues to figure out exactly which one of the cast is the traitor and what happened to him. We don't need to know who the traitor is for the story, but the answer is in there, woven in with subtly. Or to take a converse example, the movie Blowup which is about trying to discover who a murderer is and just ends without ever finding out. It's super weird but it is the point of the movie. That's something lacking in subtly, but it's the point of the storyline. Conrad on the other hand I don't think has an subtly at all. The writers just didn't realize he has a superior claim to the throne, or if they did realize it they just didn't care enough to throw in even a single line handwaving it. There's no clues in his dialogue indicating his history or when he made such a decision or why, nor anything suggestion that he never had a claim in the first place. The potential king is just not an aspect of Conrad's character at all, on any level. Which is a bit of a shame as he's, to paraphrase your words, as boring as stale white bread.

Edited by Jotari
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8 hours ago, Jotari said:

I agree that subtly can be used. Let me grab an example. Metroid Other M, highly lampooned game, mostly for good reason. In that game there is a traitor in the group killing off other members one by one. By the end of the story the traitor has been dealt with, but Samus never actually discovers who the traitor was. However a keen eyed player can pick out clues to figure out exactly which one of the cast is the traitor and what happened to him. We don't need to know who the traitor is for the story, but the answer is in there, woven in with subtly. Or to take a converse example, the movie Blowup which is about trying to discover who a murderer is and just ends without ever finding out. It's super weird but it is the point of the movie. That's something lacking in subtly, but it's the point of the storyline. Conrad on the other hand I don't think has an subtly at all. The writers just didn't realize he has a superior claim to the throne, or if they did realize it they just didn't care enough to throw in even a single line handwaving it. There's no clues in his dialogue indicating his history or when he made such a decision or why, nor anything suggestion that he never had a claim in the first place. The potential king is just not an aspect of Conrad's character at all, on any level. Which is a bit of a shame as he's, to paraphrase your words, as boring as stale white bread.

Not like I disagree, I just personally feel there are bigger issues to criticize about SoV’s storytelling than Zofia’s succession issue(Like Conrad’s pointless role in the story for instance). Speaking of where is stated that Conrad is the older brother? I always thought he was the younger sibling.

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2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Not like I disagree, I just personally feel there are bigger issues to criticize about SoV’s storytelling than Zofia’s succession issue(Like Conrad’s pointless role in the story for instance).

Oh of course there's far bigger problems with Shadows of Valentia. Most of them have already been argued at great length though (I have been wanting to take a shot at Berkut's pointless role in the story far more than Conrad's for some years now, but have never gotten round to it).

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Speaking of where is stated that Conrad is the older brother? I always thought he was the younger sibling.

Upon him revealing his identity Mae calls him Celica's older brother. If one wants to be anal they could say Mae is just assuming that and doesn't actually know it, but then there's also internal data that lists everyone's ages (because originally drinking alcohol was going to be a thing, but only for characters over a certain age). Celica is 17, Conrad is 21.

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Alm is the rightful ruler of Valentia by right of conquest duh. Celica and Conrad be damned all hail Emperor Albein Alm Rudolf baby.

Edited by NewTypeEldie
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On 4/9/2021 at 11:40 AM, NewTypeEldie said:

Alm is the rightful ruler of Valentia by right of conquest duh. Celica and Conrad be damned all hail Emperor Albein Alm Rufolf baby.

I mean- You're not wrong. Alm "conquered" both Zofia and Rigel with Conrad and Celica not bothering to oppose him, far too focused on Mila. Celica even marries him and rules WITH the ultimate savior king.

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On 4/9/2021 at 2:40 PM, NewTypeEldie said:

Alm is the rightful ruler of Valentia by right of conquest duh. Celica and Conrad be damned all hail Emperor Albein Alm Rufolf baby.

That’s kind of how I always interpreted it honestly 

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  • 1 year later...

Just that Conrad revealed himself to Celica and her party doesn't necessarily mean that he revealed himself to anyone else. He could put the mask back on as easily as he took it off.

It doesn't seem like anyone recognized him as Lima's son when he became a civil servant, or when he took over Mycen's job as chancellor; if anyone did recognize him, they didn't make a bigger deal out of it than he did.

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