Conrad's claim to the Throne

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Wow, the least you can do is recheck the dialogue before making wrong claims like that. It really makes me question the entire validity of this topic if people can't even check their sources. It wasn't Rigel as these all come from Act 3 before anyone knew of Alm's relation to Rigel. I'll give you some examples.

Fernand: But now you take for your future king a boy you don’t know from a gutter rat!

Luthier: Ha ha ha! And why not? You’re our king, aren’t you?

Clive: Heh heh. I am as shocked as you. It appears you are more fit to be king than I will ever be.

There's even exploration dialogue that acknowledges this:

Eerie Hermit: Fine work, child of fate. You have proven your strength. My master, too, has acknowledged you as worthy to inherit the kingdom. That royal shield is your proof. Use it well. And know that my master and I will watch over you always.

It doesn't need to be forced in. Alm was already on his way to be king, proven by the scripts, and Conrad made it abundantly clear that Celica was going to be the one to guide them all, not Conrad.

I highly doubt this nitpicking is valid at this point.

Okay, but... why is Alm treated as a king, or prospective ruler of Zofia? As Fernand says, he has no known lineage from the previous rulers. Which appears to have been the basis for deciding royalty thus far in Zofia's history. Clive and his allies may be willing to alter the rules, to allow the accession of a popular commoner, but they should at least say so, rather than pretending that the monarchy hasn't been an inherited position thus far.

Plus, such a novel move is being pushed under the assumption that all royal heirs are deceased. Learning that Conrad and Anthiese survived may very well change the calculus of who gets the throne. It's convenient that Conrad stood aside (without ever explicitly saying so), and that Alm and Celica were married. But in the case that one or both of these things didn't happen, it's unclear to whom the rule of Zofia would fall.

33 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

It says something that Radiant Dawn handled something similar to this far better in the form of Lord Renning being alive with just the subtext within one base conversation; Renning's a knight, not a ruler, and he can see clearly that Crimea is in good hands with his niece Elincia as queen.

You don't need much to explain it; even just, "Nah; I don't want it" would've sufficed.

And in that case, Elincia has already bern crowned. Displacing an existing monarch is much more serious than revealing oneself as ahead in succession of a princess.

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Celica has the Brand of Mila, much like Alm's Brand of Duma, which to me always symbolised that she was destined to take the throne. Also it never seemed to me that Conrad wanted the throne to begin with, seeing that Celica would make a better leader/ruler then he would in the end. 

The brand marks her as a "Child of Fate", along with Alm, but it's never made explicit what the intended implications are. Did King Lima have the brand? Does Conrad? I don't think either do, but I don't believe that's made clear.

Conrad probably doesn't want the throne, sure, but the question ought to at least come up. Maybe he believes Celica would be better on the throne, but it's not apparent whether that's borne out of a clear conscience, or a weird inferiority complex.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

And she reveals it and fully embraces princess while Conrad does not embrace his lineage or try and claim a royal role of his own. That is what happens in Echoes. Additionally, the circlet is specifically highlighted as a turning point for Celica (she even promotes) with an entire scene of Celica stepping up as role of princess. With her circlet being used to further identify her, it's the major reason the sluice gate is opened. It's a worthless nitpick to complain that Echoes didn't waste time on forced crap like that when Alm was set to be king and Celica was already revealed princess to a small amount of people.

The circlet is indeed important for Celica embracing her identity, but it is as a daughter of Liprica, not of Lima. In other words, it represents Celica's true identity, not her royal lineage, as it comes from her non royal parent. So Conrad handing it to her has no symbolic meaning of passing on the responsibility, it's him helping her recover who she truly is, which happens to be a princess, but that has nothing to do with the Circlet.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

19 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The brand marks her as a "Child of Fate", along with Alm, but it's never made explicit what the intended implications are. Did King Lima have the brand? Does Conrad? I don't think either do, but I don't believe that's made clear.

Conrad probably doesn't want the throne, sure, but the question ought to at least come up. Maybe he believes Celica would be better on the throne, but it's not apparent whether that's borne out of a clear conscience, or a weird inferiority complex.

Lima doesn't, but on the subjects of brands, I'd like to point out Rudolph was not the previous king's direct heir. He was from a branch, but because he was born with the brand, he became King over the direct descendant.

Maybe it's more a Rigel thing, but it's clear brands have more priority than primogeniture, and I don't see Zofia operating any different.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Lima doesn't, but on the subjects of brands, I'd like to point out Rudolph was not the previous king's direct heir. He was from a branch, but because he was born with the brand, he became King over the direct descendant.

Maybe it's more a Rigel thing, but it's clear brands have more priority than primogeniture, and I don't see Zofia operating any different.

Where's that information come from? I was under the impression no one had brands before Alm and Celica showed up.

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Where's that information come from? I was under the impression no one had brands before Alm and Celica showed up.

From the Valentia Accordion. Check entry Valentia Year 366. Even if not, the fact Rudolf can wield Falchion means he has to have the brand.

Hmm, looking there it says it was Duma's decision to make brand-bearers priority to the throne. So I guess it really was a Rigel only thing.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Eltosian Kadath]

There is one circumstance that wasn't considered for Conrad, which would resolve the whole male heir issue; Conrad being Celica's half brother, and Lima isn't the father. There is nothing that stops a married woman from bearing a known bastard...

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

From the Valentia Accordion. Check entry Valentia Year 366. Even if not, the fact Rudolf can wield Falchion means he has to have the brand.

Hmm, looking there it says it was Duma's decision to make brand-bearers priority to the throne. So I guess it really was a Rigel only thing.

Hm, that image is looking super blurry to me. Regardless, I appreciate the insight! So, this reinforces Alm's claim to the throne of Rigel, without making on a clear statement on the rights to the throne of Zofia.

9 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

There is one circumstance that wasn't considered for Conrad, which would resolve the whole male heir issue; Conrad being Celica's half brother, and Lima isn't the father. There is nothing that stops a married woman from bearing a known bastard...

If Lima isn't the father, then Conrad and Celica share no parentage, so they're not half-siblings anymore. Of course, they were raised together, so Conrad could still feel some loyalty to her. In any case, we can't know, with exact certainty, that Lima is the biological father of either Celica or Conrad. But there's no clear contravening argument for either child. So, they should both be regarded as having a royal birthright, to the best of anyone's knowledge. 

[Eltosian Kadath]

10 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

If Lima isn't the father, then Conrad and Celica share no parentage, so they're not half-siblings anymore. Of course, they were raised together, so Conrad could still feel some loyalty to her. In any case, we can't know, with exact certainty, that Lima is the biological father of either Celica or Conrad. But there's no clear contravening argument for either child. So, they should both be regarded as having a royal birthright, to the best of anyone's knowledge. 

I was suggesting they share the same mother, and simply had different fathers...

[vanguard333]

50 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

And in that case, Elincia has already been crowned. Displacing an existing monarch is much more serious than revealing oneself as ahead in succession of a princess.

True. Perhaps a closer comparison would be Revelation with Azura giving the throne of Valla (which admittedly is a fallen kingdom with... how many survivors exactly?). Corrin actually asks why, and Azura says that she doesn't want it. Revelation did something better than SoV. Revelation did something better than another FE game; how is that possible?

 

25 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

There is one circumstance that wasn't considered for Conrad, which would resolve the whole male heir issue; Conrad being Celica's half brother, and Lima isn't the father. There is nothing that stops a married woman from bearing a known bastard...

There was a huge double-standard in the Medieval World; men could sire all the illegitimate children that they wanted and face nothing for it, but if a married woman among the nobility sired a child that clearly wasn't her husband's, then she and the child's father would be severely punished (and the child would likely be killed as well to prevent it from growing up to want revenge for its parents). Now, a fantasy game like FE doesn't have to reflect this, but given what we learn about Lima's court, it's very likely that this double-standard held.

[Seazas]

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Okay, but... why is Alm treated as a king, or prospective ruler of Zofia? As Fernand says, he has no known lineage from the previous rulers. Which appears to have been the basis for deciding royalty thus far in Zofia's history. Clive and his allies may be willing to alter the rules, to allow the accession of a popular commoner, but they should at least say so, rather than pretending that the monarchy hasn't been an inherited position thus far.

Because it was presumed that all of Lima's line was dead. Alm was long proven to be a charismatic leader and it was him being the leader of the Deliverance that raised morale and started to save Zofia from Rigel. My point still stands that Alm was going to have the throne, Celica has the brand + circlet and Conrad continued to hide his identity and show no interest in being prince/ruler.

This is worthless nitpicking.

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

The circlet is indeed important for Celica embracing her identity, but it is as a daughter of Liprica, not of Lima. In other words, it represents Celica's true identity, not her royal lineage, as it comes from her non royal parent. So Conrad handing it to her has no symbolic meaning of passing on the responsibility, it's him helping her recover who she truly is, which happens to be a princess, but that has nothing to do with the Circlet.

And Conrad makes it clear time and again that Celica will be the one fit to guide them. Conrad playing support does not matter since he still does that in Echoes' ending. Alm and Celica bear the important brands and have respective inheritance with Conrad choosing to wear a mask and let things play out as they are. There's no point in focusing on it since the game makes it clear day 1. You can't even HAVE the talk since other things took priority and Clive is the one who makes a big deal out of this stuff... and Clive is on a completely different route.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Seazas

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

11 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I was suggesting they share the same mother, and simply had different fathers...

In the story, Celica's mother is Liprica, a Zofian Priestess of Mila. Whereas, Conrad's mother is a Rigellian noblewoman. These are two different people. Or are you proposing different mothers, as a story change?

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Because it was presumed that all of Lima's line was dead. Alm was long proven to be a charismatic leader and it was him being the leader of the Deliverance that raised morale and started to save Zofia from Rigel. My point still stands that Alm was going to have the throne, Celica has the brand + circlet and Conrad continued to hide his identity and show no interest in being prince/ruler.

This is worthless nitpicking.

A presumption that is discovered to be false, by the very person (Alm) who was supposed to be elevated to the throne. While Clive supports the idea of making Alm king, it's not clear that he, or anyone else in the Deliverance, has the power to decide this unilaterally. He'd likely need to convince some other nobles to go along with it, at least - and Fernand was far from alone in his way of thinking. And not only the other nobles, but Alm himself. It's not clear that he would accept the mantle of kingship over Zofia, even if it were offered to him. He does accept it in the end, but as a co-ruler with Celica (who has a birthright to the Zofian throne), and only after learning of his birthright to the throne of Rigel.

As Jotari said, the circlet is not a royal symbol in its own right. And Conrad may not wish for the throne, but the throne is not just a gift, it's a responsibility too. If Conrad really is first in line for the throne, per Zofian custom, then he has a duty to become king. If he really doesn't want to be king, I imagine Celica would be willing to take the responsibility off his shoulders. But at a bare minimum, he should say so, rather than ignore his apparent obligation.

As for a "nitpick", here's the thing. In any other work of fiction, if an apparently common-born character is treated as the presumptive king over a living heir to the throne, I'm gonna say "wait a minute." And if an elder sibling to said heir emerges, and experiences a "sibling" dynamic without the matter of the throne coming up, I'm gonna say "wait a minute". I'm holding Echoes to the same standard I would hold any other game, book, movie, or TV show. If that standard is a nitpick, then by all means, call me a nitpicker. But I'm not going to apologize for thinking that a topic should naturally come up in discussion, like an elephant in the room, and be disappointed when everyone else is wearing elephant-blinding glasses.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

And Conrad makes it clear time and again that Celica will be the one fit to guide them.

If Conrad did actually do that then there'd be no issue. But he doesn't. After he reveals his identity he makes a vague notion of sharing the burden with Celica, and then says precisely zero about what that means in regard to his potential as king and nobody bothers to asks him.

13 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for a "nitpick", here's the thing. In any other work of fiction, if an apparently common-born character is treated as the presumptive king over a living heir to the throne, I'm gonna say "wait a minute." And if an elder sibling to said heir emerges, and experiences a "sibling" dynamic without the matter of the throne coming up, I'm gonna say "wait a minute". I'm holding Echoes to the same standard I would hold any other game, book, movie, or TV show. If that standard is a nitpick, then by all means, call me a nitpicker. But I'm not going to apologize for thinking that a topic should naturally come up in discussion, like an elephant in the room, and be disappointed when everyone else is wearing elephant-blinding glasses.

In addition to the just plain logic of it being shakey, another issue here is that Conrad does absolutely nothing after becoming a playable character. He could just as easily die as the masked knight without his identity ever being revealed and it'd change nothing about Celica's arc (or even his own). Conrad's position as another potential heir being acknowledge could add to Celica's arc (the self doubt she feels that results in handing herself over to Jedah) and give him something of his own to have to deal with. It doesn't even have to be a major part of the story. Like I said he could have talked about this in a support with Nomah at the very least. And at the very, very least they could have added a single line in his ending saying he gave up his lance and turned down the offer of king of Zofia in order to work as a civil servant.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Jotari

[Seazas]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

In the story, Celica's mother is Liprica, a Zofian Priestess of Mila. Whereas, Conrad's mother is a Rigellian noblewoman. These are two different people. Or are you proposing different mothers, as a story change?

A presumption that is discovered to be false, by the very person (Alm) who was supposed to be elevated to the throne. While Clive supports the idea of making Alm king, it's not clear that he, or anyone else in the Deliverance, has the power to decide this unilaterally. He'd likely need to convince some other nobles to go along with it, at least - and Fernand was far from alone in his way of thinking. And not only the other nobles, but Alm himself. It's not clear that he would accept the mantle of kingship over Zofia, even if it were offered to him. He does accept it in the end, but as a co-ruler with Celica (who has a birthright to the Zofian throne), and only after learning of his birthright to the throne of Rigel.

As Jotari said, the circlet is not a royal symbol in its own right. And Conrad may not wish for the throne, but the throne is not just a gift, it's a responsibility too. If Conrad really is first in line for the throne, per Zofian custom, then he has a duty to become king. If he really doesn't want to be king, I imagine Celica would be willing to take the responsibility off his shoulders. But at a bare minimum, he should say so, rather than ignore his apparent obligation.

As for a "nitpick", here's the thing. In any other work of fiction, if an apparently common-born character is treated as the presumptive king over a living heir to the throne, I'm gonna say "wait a minute." And if an elder sibling to said heir emerges, and experiences a "sibling" dynamic without the matter of the throne coming up, I'm gonna say "wait a minute". I'm holding Echoes to the same standard I would hold any other game, book, movie, or TV show. If that standard is a nitpick, then by all means, call me a nitpicker. But I'm not going to apologize for thinking that a topic should naturally come up in discussion, like an elephant in the room, and be disappointed when everyone else is wearing elephant-blinding glasses.

Except Conrad never revealed his identity to anyone in Alm's route. The discussion literally cannot come up since everyone accepted Alm and Celica as their future rulers, they were the ones that came out first before Conrad. Also, in the script Conrad does a coronation with Celica in front of everyone (including Mila's saints and common people), so nope, Celica gets the throne by default since Conrad relinquishes it. This argument no longer holds up since Conrad gives Celica the crown + throne, the circlet is confirmed to be a crown in the script.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

If Conrad did actually do that then there'd be no issue. But he doesn't. After he reveals his identity he makes a vague notion of sharing the burden with Celica

"He doesn't make it clear that Celica is the one to lead them!" And now your argument is automatically invalid. Here's an example of Conrad literally placing everything on Celica to guide them all, INCLUDING to guide Conrad.

Masked Knight: Mila cannot save this world. But you can…Princess Anthiese.

Also, Conrad straight up says it's a crown so your argument about the circlet doesn't work anymore either

Masked Knight: This is no mere memento of your mother. It is a crown—and accepting it is a kind of coronation. As princess of Zofia, are you prepared to wear this and ascend the throne?

Masked Knight: Princess Anthiese, this crown is now yours to bear.

Celica: I accept it willingly.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Except Conrad never revealed his identity to anyone in Alm's route. The discussion literally cannot come up since everyone accepted Alm and Celica as their future rulers, they were the ones that came out first before Conrad. Also, in the script Conrad does a coronation with Celica in front of everyone (including Mila's saints and common people), so nope, Celica gets the throne by default since Conrad relinquishes it. This argument no longer holds up since Conrad gives Celica the crone, the circlet is confirmed to be a crown.

It's a symbol of a crown because it's part of Celica's identity and Celica is a princess.

2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

"He doesn't make it clear that Celica is the one to lead them!" And now your argument is automatically invalid. Here's an example of Conrad literally placing everything on Celica to guide them all, INCLUDING to guide Conrad.

Masked Knight: Mila cannot save this world. But you can…Princess Anthiese.

Also, Conrad straight up says it's a crown so your argument about the circlet doesn't work anymore either

Masked Knight: This is no mere memento of your mother. It is a crown—and accepting it is a kind of coronation. As princess of Zofia, are you prepared to wear this and ascend the throne?

Masked Knight: Princess Anthiese, this crown is now yours to bear.

Celica: I accept it willingly.

That's not Conrad, that's the Masked Knight doing that. Celica absolutely should have questioned his actions post reveal as to why he is giving up his own responsibilities that are equal if not greater than hers. Why do you think all this time I've been talking about Conrad post reveal?

[Seazas]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

It's a symbol of a crown because it's part of Celica's identity and Celica is a princess.

That's not Conrad, that's the Masked Knight doing that. Celica absolutely should have questioned his actions post reveal as to why he is giving up his own responsibilities that are equal if not greater than hers. Why do you think all this time I've been talking about Conrad post reveal?

LOL

Are you really shifting the goalposts? "It doesn't count because he was masked!" Especially when you said yourself that the Masked Knight was eventually revealed to be Conrad? Therefore  everything is out in the open? No matter the excuses, Conrad relinquished it in front of everyone and his identity as Masked Knight was exposed later on. So there's no conversation to be had, since Celica was already given the throne. 

The circlet is directly said by the game to be a crown and apart of a coronation. Like it or not but Conrad gave the throne to Celica and you're making excuses now.

[Jotari]

Just now, Seazas said:

LOL

Are you really shifting the goalposts? "It doesn't count because he was masked!" Especially when you said yourself that the Masked Knight was eventually revealed to be Conrad? Therefore  everything is out in the open? No matter the excuses, Conrad relinquished it in front of everyone and his identity as Masked Knight was exposed later on. So there's no conversation to be had, since Celica was already given the throne. 

The circlet is directly said by the game to be a crown and apart of a coronation. Like it or not but Conrad gave the throne to Celica and you're making excuses now.

I'm not shifting the goalposts, check the OP, everything I said has been about Conrad post his unmasking. Conrad before he unmasks himeself is a Conrad that's shirking his identity just like Celica. It doesn't become an issue until Conrad reveals himself. His identity isn't "exposed" he willingly reveals it because in his own words he wants to share Celica's royal burden.

[Seazas]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm not shifting the goalposts, check the OP, everything I said has been about Conrad post his unmasking. Conrad before he unmasks himeself is a Conrad that's shirking his identity just like Celica. It doesn't become an issue until Conrad reveals himself. His identity isn't "exposed" he willingly reveals it because in his own words he wants to share Celica's royal burden.

And his actions still apply even after his unmasking. Conrad did the coronation, Conrad saved Celica, and the circlet is directly SAID to be a crown. People wouldn't associate Conrad and "Masked Knight" as separate people at that point. Celica having the crown on her head furthers her state of her getting the throne too. Who's going to stop her? Lima's dead and everyone in Zofia is eagerly talking about Princess Anthiese. Also he explains that him "sharing the burden" was protecting her and keeping her from being harmed, not ascending to the throne with her. In the ending, Conrad keeps that role without being a king or anything like that. You'd have to make a lot of headcanons to come to the conclusion of Conrad "ascending the throne with her".

Edited March 18, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

26 minutes ago, Seazas said:

And his actions still apply even after his unmasking. Conrad did the coronation, Conrad saved Celica, and the circlet is directly SAID to be a crown. People wouldn't associate Conrad and "Masked Knight" as separate people at that point. Celica having the crown on her head furthers her state of her getting the throne too. Who's going to stop her? Lima's dead and everyone in Zofia is eagerly talking about Princess Anthiese. Also he explains that him "sharing the burden" was protecting her and keeping her from being harmed, not ascending to the throne with her. In the ending, Conrad keeps that role without being a king or anything like that. You'd have to make a lot of headcanons to come to the conclusion of Conrad "ascending the throne with her".

You seem to be mistaking my argument into thinking that I personally want Conrad to be king or share the rule with Celica. I don't. I made that clear in the original post. What's missing is an explanation as to why Conrad isn't becoming king. Why he wants Celica to be queen over him, or if it's not about his personal opinion, why he thinks he isn't eligible for the job. That's not an issue while Conrad is in disguise, but once he (remember, willingly) reveals himself, it is an issue that I, and by all rights Celica should be asking. The best answer we can get is the first suggestion I made in the OP, that Halcyon has convinced Conrad that Celica is the destined queen because she possess a brand. But that's not something the game ever actually reveals. We never even see Conrad talk to Halcyon when Celica meets him.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Jotari

[Seazas]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You seem to be mistaking my argument into thinking that I personally want Conrad to be king or share the rule with Celica. I don't. I made that clear in the original post. What's missing is an explanation as to why Conrad isn't becoming king. Why he wants Celica to be queen over him, or if it's not about his personal opinion, why he thinks he isn't eligible for the job. That's not an issue while Conrad is in disguise, but once he (remember, willingly) reveals himself, it is an issue that I, and by all rights Celica should be asking. The best answer we can get is the first suggestion I made in the OP, that Halcyon has convinced Conrad that Celica is the destined queen because she possess a brand. But that's not something the game ever actually reveals. We never even see Conrad talk to Halcyon when Celica meets him.

An explanation isn't needed. It's made abundantly clear that Conrad trusts his sister and Conrad has no reason to pursue the throne. He directly proves it by saying that no one, not even Mila, can save the world but Celica could. If Conrad had any interest in the throne he wouldn't have done that coronation and would've took matters into his own hands.

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, Seazas said:

An explanation isn't needed. It's made abundantly clear that Conrad trusts his sister and Conrad has no reason to pursue the throne. He directly proves it by saying that no one, not even Mila, can save the world but Celica could. If Conrad had any interest in the throne he wouldn't have done that coronation and would've took matters into his own hands.

Yeah I'm just going to say again the fact that Conrad doesn't become king isn't what's in question here, it's the why of it that is. Nothing you've said there explains why. That Halcyon has explained to Conrad that Celica is a child of prophecy destined to lead the world is the why explanation, but it's never actually said in game as Halcyon and Conrad never even talk, so I can only call that my personal headcanon.

[Seazas]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yeah I'm just going to say again the fact that Conrad doesn't become king isn't what's in question here, it's the why of it that is. Nothing you've said there explains why. That Halcyon has explained to Conrad that Celica is a child of prophecy destined to lead the world is the why explanation, but it's never actually said in game as Halcyon and Conrad never even talk, so I can only call that my personal headcanon.

Conrad explains in his base conversation that he spent his life under Halcyon receiving wisdom from him. And Halcyon is the reason Rudolf knows about the prophecy in Echoes' timeline. Celica is a thoughtful sweet princess and proven capability. It makes enough sense why Conrad would place his faith into Celica, she's leading a miniature army and has the kindness and awareness that Lima lacked. She had everything going for her to make a suitable leader, Conrad placing faith into her is par of the course for FE lords. Celica also wearing the crown while Conrad still wears his mask instantly draws attention to Celica, which makes sense since everyone was talking about the princess even when Conrad revealed himself. Alm being the prince of Rigel and bearing the brand like Celica in the prophecy that a lot of people across Valentia know about... it lines up perfectly. There doesn't need to be extra conflict or an explanation from what we, as players are easily able to tell.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Seazas said:

Conrad explains in his base conversation that he spent his life under Halcyon receiving wisdom from him. And Halcyon is the reason Rudolf knows about the prophecy in Echoes' timeline. Celica is a thoughtful sweet princess and proven capability. It makes enough sense why Conrad would place his faith into Celica, she's leading a miniature army and has the kindness and awareness that Lima lacked. She had everything going for her to make a suitable leader, Conrad placing faith into her is par of the course for FE lords. Celica also wearing the crown while Conrad still wears his mask instantly draws attention to Celica, which makes sense since everyone was talking about the princess even when Conrad revealed himself. Alm being the prince of Rigel and bearing the brand like Celica in the prophecy that a lot of people across Valentia know about... it lines up perfectly. There doesn't need to be extra conflict or an explanation from what we, as players are easily able to tell.

There kind of does. Because as I said, him doing it because Halcyon told him to is currently headcanon, and not a part of the story. And Celica isn't privy to the same information I am, even though she has far more reason than I do to understand and clarify the situation.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

7 hours ago, Seazas said:

Except Conrad never revealed his identity to anyone in Alm's route. The discussion literally cannot come up since everyone accepted Alm and Celica as their future rulers, they were the ones that came out first before Conrad. Also, in the script Conrad does a coronation with Celica in front of everyone (including Mila's saints and common people), so nope, Celica gets the throne by default since Conrad relinquishes it. This argument no longer holds up since Conrad gives Celica the crown + throne, the circlet is confirmed to be a crown in the script.

For Alm's side, they should either A) still express an interest in finding an heir of Lima, or B) acknowledge that Alm is only in consideration because Lima has no known surviving heirs.

As for the scene at the temple of Mila - let's say that it does establish Celica as the ruler of Zofia. That wasn't my original interpretation (her class is "Princess", not "Queen"), but maybe that's what was intended. Once Conrad outs himself as Celica's older brother, though - why doesn't Celica ask? "Hey Conrad, why didn't you elect to take the throne? You're ahead of me in line, and I think you'd make a great king! You said that I need to save the world or whatever, but the rest of my journey is in Rigel, where my royal status isn't particularly relevant, so..." That wording isn't exact, but I really think this should have come up. Knowing Celica, she should probably have a bunch of feelings in learning that her "coronation" was based on a partial truth (wherein, she's an heir of Lima, but neither the only nor the first). Either she doesn't realize this, or she somehow doesn't react.

[Seazas]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

There kind of does. Because as I said, him doing it because Halcyon told him to is currently headcanon, and not a part of the story. And Celica isn't privy to the same information I am, even though she has far more reason than I do to understand and clarify the situation.

Conrad does it because he trusts his sister, clearly. He has faith in Celica, it's why he says no one can save the world except for her. There does not need to be extra elaboration on something so spelled out for us. Conrad is one of Celica's biggest supporters and came out of hiding specifically to help her out.

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

For Alm's side, they should either A) still express an interest in finding an heir of Lima, or B) acknowledge that Alm is only in consideration because Lima has no known surviving heirs.

As for the scene at the temple of Mila - let's say that it does establish Celica as the ruler of Zofia. That wasn't my original interpretation (her class is "Princess", not "Queen"), but maybe that's what was intended. Once Conrad outs himself as Celica's older brother, though - why doesn't Celica ask? "Hey Conrad, why didn't you elect to take the throne? You're ahead of me in line, and I think you'd make a great king! You said that I need to save the world or whatever, but the rest of my journey is in Rigel, where my royal status isn't particularly relevant, so..." That wording isn't exact, but I really think this should have come up. Knowing Celica, she should probably have a bunch of feelings in learning that her "coronation" was based on a partial truth (wherein, she's an heir of Lima, but neither the only nor the first). Either she doesn't realize this, or she somehow doesn't react.

Interest is already expressed, Alm brought it up in his and Celica's argument. But since the princess never showed up and is still presumed dead, the responsibility's thrown onto Alm's shoulders. More so when he's revealed as crown prince.

Ascending to the throne leaves no other options, taking the throne means she, by default, is going to be a ruler whether or not Celica uses a different title. Also your suggestion makes zero sense when Celica is just fine with ruling after getting Mila and Conrad already said to her that he wants to stick around and protect her. Celica had different priorities than caring about the state of the throne, that was a miniscule problem in comparison. 

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

For Alm's side, they should either A) still express an interest in finding an heir of Lima, or B) acknowledge that Alm is only in consideration because Lima has no known surviving heirs.

As for the scene at the temple of Mila - let's say that it does establish Celica as the ruler of Zofia. That wasn't my original interpretation (her class is "Princess", not "Queen"), but maybe that's what was intended. Once Conrad outs himself as Celica's older brother, though - why doesn't Celica ask? "Hey Conrad, why didn't you elect to take the throne? You're ahead of me in line, and I think you'd make a great king! You said that I need to save the world or whatever, but the rest of my journey is in Rigel, where my royal status isn't particularly relevant, so..." That wording isn't exact, but I really think this should have come up. Knowing Celica, she should probably have a bunch of feelings in learning that her "coronation" was based on a partial truth (wherein, she's an heir of Lima, but neither the only nor the first). Either she doesn't realize this, or she somehow doesn't react.

Having her ask Conrad to take care of Zofia when she's about to sacrifice herself to Duma (and have Conrad respond by clearly saying he doesn't want to be king along with the whole you promised not to throw your life away line) would have been nice too. Not like she really expects to end up as queen at that moment.

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

Conrad does it because he trusts his sister, clearly. He has faith in Celica, it's why he says no one can save the world except for her. There does not need to be extra elaboration on something so spelled out for us. Conrad is one of Celica's biggest supporters and came out of hiding specifically to help her out.

Okay, guess I'll just quote myself again.

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

There kind of does. Because as I said, him doing it because Halcyon told him to is currently headcanon, and not a part of the story. And Celica isn't privy to the same information I am, even though she has far more reason than I do to understand and clarify the situation.

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Jotari