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A Complete Verdant Wind Rewrite (and why Silver Snow should never have happened)

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Nemesis on the Verdant Wind route didn’t come completely out of nowhere as he was mentioned in part 1. But yea, I kind of hoped there would have been more build up for Nemesis to finally awaken. There kinda of was by chapter 21, but that’s it.

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On 3/21/2021 at 6:32 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Up to you, by all means. I was thinking, with Acheron's betrayal (and the subsequent Javelins of Light), there'll be a lot of loss of faceless mooks. So they need the time to regroup, and regain support from the Alliance nobles.

I think I've got an idea of how to work it in. Let's just say that not everyone in the Alliance will be happy with Acheron peddling his BS in the streets of Derdriu...

And if Claude's going back to the capital, this might be the perfect chance for the Almyrans to make peace with the Alliance, since Nader and his crew would be traveling back with Claude and the Golden Deer to help them quell the infighting. Maybe they could even make a big dramatic entrance with the ships like on CF. It would be pretty damn cool to see the Almyran fleet show up, and they're on our side this time.

On 3/21/2021 at 6:32 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I never really explained my rationale here. Basically, I made Fleche a Soldier by default because... well, that's what her generic model and portrait look like. Her personal skill is basically an inverse of Lysithea's (rather than gaining double ranks on the battlefield, she gains double ranks in classes, seminars, etc.), so she can build up from her poor base ranks fairly quickly. I namely took inspiration from a couple missing units in designing her. Like Cyril, she's good in Lance/Bow/Flight, and gets Vengeance and Point-Blank Volley. Her spell lists bear some similarity to Flayn's, but with more high-crit spells. Also with some shades of Dimitri (see Battalion Wrath/Vantage Combo) and Seteth (flier with Swift Strikes). Finally, as bad as her bases are for this point, she also has the highest overall growths in the game, averaging 5 stats per level-up. So with some training, Fleche could go from seriously underwhelming, to one of your best units available. 

Ah, now I see what you're getting at with the Est archetype idea. My only real experience with an Est has been Mozu, and I recall her taking a fair bit of time to start pulling her weight (now granted I sucked at Fates), which I didn't imagine would be ideal for Fleche seeing as she'd be joining so late. But having her make the jump quickly like you've described should work out really well. I also love the selection of combat arts you've given her, being a huge fan of Swift Strikes, Vengeance and Point-Blank Volley. One tweak I'd make however is her spell list. I gave her something more along the lines of Ingrid's, which has a few more favorable spells imo. I just don't find Cutting Gale, Excalibur or Fortify all that useful most of the time.

On 3/21/2021 at 6:32 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I like quite a bit about this! Her spell lists have some interesting ones, like Thoron and Rescue. If Faith is going to be a boon, and you want magical builds to be viable for her, I'd probably start her above E. Seeing Point-Blank Volley again is great, since Leonie is the only other CF unit who gets it. Giving her Sword Avoid +20 through Budding Talent is an interesting choice, since she can't get it through Dancer. Her Rallies might be a bit overloaded, since your other Rallybots (Annette, Ignatz, Hubert) max out at 3 learned, and that's with a boon in Authority. But I like seeing more rally units, even if I took my Fleche in a different direction. Her growths are fairly unimpressive, so her performance is likely to depend more on the bases you set for her

Ah, good catch on her faith boon! I didn't have it as a boon originally, so I think I forgot to give her a higher rank. I can definitely drop one of her rallies if four's too much, though technically Annette does have access to four thanks to her personal so it may not be too big of an issue. I hadn't thought about bases yet, but they'd definitely be on the higher side of things to help her catch up with the others quickly.

On 3/21/2021 at 6:32 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

These all sound pretty good! A point of concern, though - is your "ideal CF" still stick at 15 chapters? If so, there might just not be time for , say, locking her C-support with Jeritza until after chapter 15, or for a four-stage chain with Caspar. I think it's hard to really craft supports for Fleche, because we see so little of her personality in the base game. But yours offer some good ideas.

Yes, my ideal CF would still have only 18 chapters. I know CF's length is a common complaint people have with the route, but I feel that it serves a thematic purpose that I won't go into here for sake of avoiding the whole Edelgard minefield. It also makes the endgame more challenging, imo, because there's less time to overlevel your units (flashbacks to AM Ch.22 getting thoroughly Dimitri'd). I do see your point about having enough time to complete those supports though... maybe I could have Jeritza's C happen before Ch.15 and just story-lock the B. Caspar's shouldn't be an issue though, I don't think. It's only B+ and A that are story-locked, and afterwards there's still two chapters of dining and auxiliaries left to unlock them.

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14 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Yes, my ideal CF would still have only 18 chapters. I know CF's length is a common complaint people have with the route, but I feel that it serves a thematic purpose that I won't go into here for sake of avoiding the whole Edelgard minefield. It also makes the endgame more challenging, imo, because there's less time to overlevel your units (flashbacks to AM Ch.22 getting thoroughly Dimitri'd). I do see your point about having enough time to complete those supports though... maybe I could have Jeritza's C happen before Ch.15 and just story-lock the B. Caspar's shouldn't be an issue though, I don't think. It's only B+ and A that are story-locked, and afterwards there's still two chapters of dining and auxiliaries left to unlock them.

Thing is the addition to cf can easily be and probably has to be cindered shadow style in implementation where it is in its own save space and everything like that.  I don't know from a technical standpoint they could do it any other way tbh because it probably would be challenging and potentially problematic to code the existing end to go to a new place not to mention balancing the new maps for wildly different playthroughs.  So the main game difficulty probably would be as it is now and the new stuff with its own balance like cindered shadows has.

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3 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

think I've got an idea of how to work it in. Let's just say that not everyone in the Alliance will be happy with Acheron peddling his BS in the streets of Derdriu...

And if Claude's going back to the capital, this might be the perfect chance for the Almyrans to make peace with the Alliance, since Nader and his crew would be traveling back with Claude and the Golden Deer to help them quell the infighting. Maybe they could even make a big dramatic entrance with the ships like on CF. It would be pretty damn cool to see the Almyran fleet show up, and they're on our side this time.

I like the idea of involving the Almyrans! And I'd be curious to hear your own specifics. Now, here's what I'm thinking: after Acheron takes control of the Alliance, Claude reveals himself to still be alive. Acheron claims this to be an Almyran plot - "he's not the true Claude, but an imposter from Almyra!" Claude, ever the schemer, capitalizes off this, by arranging an Almyran "attack" on Dierdriu. A princess of Almyra exclaims her nation's disgust at Acheron's allegations, and gives him fair warning. Anticipating Acheron's cowardice, and inability to sway the other Alliance Lords, Claude shows up at the last second to "save" Dierdriu from the Almyran princess, and her army. Essentially a mock battle (the "humiliated" Almyrans flee), that capitalizes off of Alliance nobles' fears of Almyra, while cementing Claude's loyalty to the Alliance, and right to lead it. Well, what do you think?

3 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Ah, now I see what you're getting at with the Est archetype idea. My only real experience with an Est has been Mozu, and I recall her taking a fair bit of time to start pulling her weight (now granted I sucked at Fates), which I didn't imagine would be ideal for Fleche seeing as she'd be joining so late. But having her make the jump quickly like you've described should work out really well. I also love the selection of combat arts you've given her, being a huge fan of Swift Strikes, Vengeance and Point-Blank Volley. One tweak I'd make however is her spell list. I gave her something more along the lines of Ingrid's, which has a few more favorable spells imo. I just don't find Cutting Gale, Excalibur or Fortify all that useful most of the time.

Cutting Gale and Fortify weren't there for their perceived quality, but for showing up in Flayn's spell list (and of course, she's gone this route). So Fleche can function somewhat as a substitute. As for Excalibur (also a Flayn spell), it has a notable niche, in being effective against fliers. And it has a boosted crit rate, which could work well for her in a magical Battalion Wrath/Vantage setup (something pretty much nobody else can do).

4 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Ah, good catch on her faith boon! I didn't have it as a boon originally, so I think I forgot to give her a higher rank. I can definitely drop one of her rallies if four's too much, though technically Annette does have access to four thanks to her personal so it may not be too big of an issue. I hadn't thought about bases yet, but they'd definitely be on the higher side of things to help her catch up with the others quickly.

Up to you. I don't count Annette's innate rally, as it comes... well, at the cost of a personal skill. I don't think anyone learns a Rally at A Authority, so I'd personally trim that one. But getting another rallybot is still neat, conceptually.

3 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Thing is the addition to cf can easily be and probably has to be cindered shadow style in implementation where it is in its own save space and everything like that.  I don't know from a technical standpoint they could do it any other way tbh because it probably would be challenging and potentially problematic to code the existing end to go to a new place not to mention balancing the new maps for wildly different playthroughs.  So the main game difficulty probably would be as it is now and the new stuff with its own balance like cindered shadows has.

The thing is, I struggled on AM to even get all of Gilbert's supports (I believe I missed a couple A's). And that was with 8 or so chapters to get it done. I'm not a big fan of putting players in a position, where they have to choose between doing a ton of Auxilliary battles, and actually advancing the story - especially towards the lategame, with the end in sight. So I'd favor giving Fleche some instant C supports, and keeping chains short. But I can respect a different opinion of design.

And on that note, I do believe that Crimson Flower could be extended by 2 chapters, in a way that isn't compromising either its uniqueness, or its thematic narrative. But I'll hold my tongue, as it strays from the intended topic of this thread.

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3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The thing is, I struggled on AM to even get all of Gilbert's supports (I believe I missed a couple A's). And that was with 8 or so chapters to get it done. I'm not a big fan of putting players in a position, where they have to choose between doing a ton of Auxilliary battles, and actually advancing the story - especially towards the lategame, with the end in sight. So I'd favor giving Fleche some instant C supports, and keeping chains short. But I can respect a different opinion of design.

And on that note, I do believe that Crimson Flower could be extended by 2 chapters, in a way that isn't compromising either its uniqueness, or its thematic narrative. But I'll hold my tongue, as it strays from the intended topic of this thread.

My point was more so about preserving the old campaign for those who like it for gameplay reasons is possible while giving people the additional part that people want of CF vs TWISD. Now people will have preferences on which option they personally prefer between changing the old one or adding it as is and putting it in a separate menu like CS but the option to make new stuff and leave the old game as is there. So if some one wants to keep things as is but get new stuff the option is there

Edited by vikingsfan92

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Just went back and edited my main post. Here's a list of the changes I've made so far:

  • Under non-specific changes, I've addressed the issue with fog of war on Blood of the Eagle and Lion.
  • I included Randolph as a green ally alongside Fleche on Ch.22
  • Under changes to other routes, I've added in stats for Fleche as a recruitable unit on CF.

@Shanty Pete's 1st Mate

I took both our ideas for Fleche and combined them as best I could. I added Excalibur and Aura at Reason A and Faith A respectively to give her that hint of Flayn's spell list. I also swapped out Swift Strikes for Frozen Lance. This not only brings in another aspect of Flayn's kit, but I think it'd serve her better overall since she shouldn't have any trouble doubling. I lowered her rank and skill levels, but bumped up her growths like you suggested so she can quickly catch up with the others. I don't know if she's exactly an Est now, or if she's more of a "semi-Est", but I think she strikes a good balance nonetheless.

I still need to finish writing the new Acheron chapter and fix the ending so the crest stone doesn't disappear. That shouldn't take too long, though.

Edited by RainbowMoon

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2 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Just went back and edited my main post. Here's a list of the changes I've made so far:

  • Under non-specific changes, I've addressed the issue with fog of war on Blood of the Eagle and Lion.
  • I included Randolph as a green ally alongside Fleche on Ch.22
  • Under changes to other routes, I've added in stats for Fleche as a recruitable unit on CF.

@Shanty Pete's 1st Mate

I took both our ideas for Fleche and combined them as best I could. I added Excalibur and Aura at Reason A and Faith A respectively to give her that hint of Flayn's spell list. I also swapped out Swift Strikes for Frozen Lance. This not only brings in another aspect of Flayn's kit, but I think it'd serve her better overall since she shouldn't have any trouble doubling. I lowered her rank and skill levels, but bumped up her growths like you suggested so she can quickly catch up with the others. I don't know if she's exactly an Est now, or if she's more of a "semi-Est", but I think she strikes a good balance nonetheless.

I still need to finish writing the new Acheron chapter and fix the ending so the crest stone doesn't disappear. That shouldn't take too long, though.

Cool! I mean, I'm generally a fan of such changes. Frozen Lance on Fleche is something I considered, but I wound up juggling (Vengeance made sense with her AM role, and I really wanted a female unit to get Swift Strikes), while both her spell lists look pretty good. That said, I hope it didn't come across as though I was pressuring you to change your vision of the characters and the route. Like, two people can have different ideas about how to craft a character, and neither one is more "right" or "wrong" than the other. So I'm cool with these changes, but I hope they weren't borne out of feeling any need to compromise your original vision. Does that make sense?

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3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Cool! I mean, I'm generally a fan of such changes. Frozen Lance on Fleche is something I considered, but I wound up juggling (Vengeance made sense with her AM role, and I really wanted a female unit to get Swift Strikes), while both her spell lists look pretty good. That said, I hope it didn't come across as though I was pressuring you to change your vision of the characters and the route. Like, two people can have different ideas about how to craft a character, and neither one is more "right" or "wrong" than the other. So I'm cool with these changes, but I hope they weren't borne out of feeling any need to compromise your original vision. Does that make sense?

No worries! Like I said, I took a combination of our ideas based on what we discussed and what I felt worked the best. I didn’t make any changes that I wasn't also on board with. And overall I'm very pleased with the end result, it has everything I'd want from a recruitable Fleche. She'd make the perfect addition to anyone's CF run.

A female Swift Strikes unit would definitely be cool, but I realized that having access to Darting Blow (not to mention Falcon Knight) means that Swift Strikes would likely see much less use on a female unit than on, say, Sylvain or Seteth.

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Just finished addding in the Acheron chapter! Thank you everyone for your suggestions so far, I can't wait to hear more of your thoughts! 🙂

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On 3/18/2021 at 7:36 PM, RainbowMoon said:

Acheron and his men no longer appear in the chapter battle, instead arriving late to the scene after the chapter's been completed. He barges in shouting about the declining Alliance and bringing glory to the Empire before noticing that the battle's already been lost and surrendering immediately. He's then taken into custody by Claude and the Almyrans.

Damn, this is pretty hilarious.

On 3/18/2021 at 7:36 PM, RainbowMoon said:

In the javelins of light cutscene, Byleth and the Golden Deer now escape the blast by catching rides on the Almyrans' wyverns.

Cool to see this one thrown in! I hope our animators like drawing loads of wyverns.

On 3/18/2021 at 7:36 PM, RainbowMoon said:

• After the battle, following Claude's speech about his goals for Fódlan, the Golden Deer are met by an Alliance general (namely, that Alliance general who replaces Hilda on Azure Moon Ch.19) who informs Byleth and Claude that Acheron's vanished, and that nobody's seen him since they left Fort Merceus. She warns them that he may have slipped away in the chaos following the fort's destruction. Claude points out that if Acheron's escaped, he could be giving away dangerous information about the Alliance to anyone he pleases. Concerned that Acheron may be selling them out to the Empire, Claude begins a search to track him down before he can do any serious damage.

I love this character, who's about as relevant as Kezdha (Radiant Dawn), getting another appearance. It's hilarious that she was uniquely qualified, among female units, to be a War Master.

On 3/18/2021 at 7:36 PM, RainbowMoon said:

Chapter 18 - The Aquatic Capital

I love... just about all of this! It makes Acheron off like a snake (while also a credible threat), integrates the other Alliance Lords, uses the setting of Dierdriu (remarkably absent from the Alliance-centered route), and integrates the Almyrans. Plus, it does something I couldn't manage - namely, give the Alliance Lords a reason to start having repairing relations with their Almyran neighbors. Interestingly, I always imagined Count Gloucester as an eventual enemy for Claude, with Margrave Edmund as something of a "wild card". I can see them working together in this case, even if it seems to construct a more open, less sneaky or back-handed version of Alliance politics than what I had interpreted.

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On 4/4/2021 at 9:29 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Damn, this is pretty hilarious.

Ikr! I was definitely going for the "comic relief idiot villain" feeling with Acheron, since he's already such an infamous screwup in-story. And I loved the idea of him just barging in like a moron, spouting his grandiose ideals... then noticing Ladislava and Ferdie lying dead atop of a heap of Imperials and just being like "...Oh."

On 4/4/2021 at 9:29 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I love this character, who's about as relevant as Kezdha (Radiant Dawn), getting another appearance. It's hilarious that she was uniquely qualified, among female units, to be a War Master.

This lady cleared out half the damn map on my first AM run, no joke! Not even Dimitri could keep up! Though honestly, I've got no clue why they decided women can't use the brawling classes. I mean, some of the gender locks I get (Pegasus/Falcon, Dark Flier, Gremory) because there's a canon-ish excuse, but what's stopping the ladies from being able to throw a punch? I want War Master Edelgard, dammit!

On 4/4/2021 at 9:29 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I love... just about all of this! It makes Acheron off like a snake (while also a credible threat), integrates the other Alliance Lords, uses the setting of Dierdriu (remarkably absent from the Alliance-centered route), and integrates the Almyrans. Plus, it does something I couldn't manage - namely, give the Alliance Lords a reason to start having repairing relations with their Almyran neighbors. Interestingly, I always imagined Count Gloucester as an eventual enemy for Claude, with Margrave Edmund as something of a "wild card". I can see them working together in this case, even if it seems to construct a more open, less sneaky or back-handed version of Alliance politics than what I had interpreted.

Thanks! My idea was basically to set up the final chapter a little more by having the Alliance lords reconcile with the Almyrans before they all come together for the finale. I also liked the thought of giving Claude his own version of AM's Ch.18, since that was such the perfect culmination of Dimitri's character arc before moving into the final act of the story. Instead of redemption like in Dimitri's case, this would be Claude's chance to finally achieve the first steps of his dream and bring the Alliance and Almyra together as respected allies.

Honestly, I'd always seen Count Gloucester as kinda the "stubborn old grandpa" of the Alliance lords. Not really bad-intentioned, just difficult as all hell and a little arrogant. Though he and Claude may not always agree on things, I like to think he still respects Claude and stands by him when the future of the Alliance is at stake, like a true noble would. Like father, like son, basically lol

Ironically, I think the most problematic of the Alliance nobles would actually be Holst Goneril, given what we hear about him in Hilda's supports with Cyril. I mean, he supposedly does sort of come around eventually in their A-support, but I still think it's pretty telling of his character that he's fed his younger sister so much bullshit about Almyrans that she's legit surprised to see that Cyril's just a regular guy (Rhea simping aside) and not some warmongering villain. I don't imagine he'd actively betray Claude, but I could definitely see some heavy resistance from him in terms of rebuilding bridges with Almyra. He could potentially end up being a major political rival for Claude down the road.

Edited by RainbowMoon

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Verdant Wind is one of the worse routes in 3H. It fails to resolve the things that it sets up during the academy and leaves you with questions and plot holes everywhere.

It has ridiculous contrivancies such as the way it deals with Almyra: Lorenz states the obvious: that the church's dogma does not accept foreigners and yet Claude just says "lol no" and this is never brought up ever again. It just magically solves the problem.

Despite how he also said that it is Rhea's dogma that convinced people to accept the crest system just a few chapters earlier. The writing is all over the place. 

Not to mention the ridiculous suspension of disbelief required to accept that Holst and Nader are suddenly becoming best friends because they "had a few drinks" and the Alliance accepts its greatest enemy to just walk into Fodlan.

Then it has other stupid stuff like Byleth and Edelgard looking as if they were soulmates during the Palace Battle when they barely interact at all during GD academy phase.

Or how Nemesis wakes up and Rhea degenerates only in VW when the exact same things happen in SS. It's really obvious they moved Nemesis to VW in order to give VW just one chapter that is not copy pasted from SS.

The number of plotholes and contrivancies are ridiculous.

The only reason to play it is to blast God Shattering Star and fight the Liberation Army and Nemesis that they just stole from SS. VW is just 10 chapters rehashed from SS and highjacked with him providing the commentary instead of Seteth.

Even Claude's arc who is impressive on paper and who I love as a character, failed to resonate with so many people who played that route, judging from how they fail to see that his point is that his dream was unrealistic and all his scheming pointless, and that he needed to accept the reality.

It doesn't suprise me that this thread is now heading into fan-made territory where people try to fix VW. Good luck with that. But the premise of the thread being "VW is better than SS, SS shouldn't exist" is wrong and this brainstorming going on just proves it that you guys believe the same thing: that VW is badly written and needs to be fixed.

Edited by FE Villain

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1 hour ago, FE Villain said:

Even Claude's arc who is impressive on paper and who I love as a character, failed to resonate with so many people who played that route, judging from how they fail to see that his point is that his dream was unrealistic and all his scheming pointless, and that he needed to accept the reality.

It doesn't suprise me that this thread is now heading into fan-made territory where people try to fix VW. Good luck with that. But the premise of the thread being "VW is better than SS, SS shouldn't exist" is wrong

What is your argument for that?

Claude being a good character is reason alone to consider VW a better route than SS, in my opinion. As you note, the two routes are annoyingly similar, with one of the biggest differences (berserk Rhea vs Nemesis as a final boss) being unexplained. But this is a problem both share, and one route having Claude, who actually stands for something and is enjoyable to watch, makes it easy to prefer IMO. And that's why you see threads like this trying to salvage the good parts of VW, despite general consensus being that SS is worse: because no Claude/Alliance means SS is less worth salvaging.

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5 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

What is your argument for that?

Claude being a good character is reason alone to consider VW a better route than SS, in my opinion. As you note, the two routes are annoyingly similar, with one of the biggest differences (berserk Rhea vs Nemesis as a final boss) being unexplained. But this is a problem both share, and one route having Claude, who actually stands for something and is enjoyable to watch, makes it easy to prefer IMO. And that's why you see threads like this trying to salvage the good parts of VW, despite general consensus being that SS is worse: because no Claude/Alliance means SS is less worth salvaging.

Even in pure gameplay Verdant Wind letting you use Claude while Silver Snow offering absolutely no unique units is a motivation to play it. Also has an extra chapter in the form of the Grondor battle. Literally the only reason to play Silver Snow is for the Rhea final boss fight.

Edited by Jotari

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35 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

What is your argument for that?

Claude being a good character is reason alone to consider VW a better route than SS, in my opinion. As you note, the two routes are annoyingly similar, with one of the biggest differences (berserk Rhea vs Nemesis as a final boss) being unexplained. But this is a problem both share, and one route having Claude, who actually stands for something and is enjoyable to watch, makes it easy to prefer IMO. And that's why you see threads like this trying to salvage the good parts of VW, despite general consensus being that SS is worse: because no Claude/Alliance means SS is less worth salvaging.

This, really. VW and SS, the way they are now, are pretty much the same damn route. It's not worth trying to salvage both, imo. And when you compare the two routes, VW has a much more engaging cast (Golden Deer vs. shoehorned Eagles? Not a close race there) and a fan-favorite lord character with a unique and interesting backstory (not to mention an effing albino wyvern.) SS has... Rhea as the final boss. That's about it, really. Makes more sense to try and salvage VW, seeing as it's got more going for it to begin with. SS was just the rough draft, anyway. It shouldn't have even been in the game at all.

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