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Attack, Special, Jump...Action?


Lord_Brand
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Ever since Melee, we've had three actions commonly mapped to the four face buttons: Attack, Special, and Jump. Jump often gets mapped to two of the four face buttons. But, what if the fourth face button could serve its own function?

Recently, while designing movesets for X and Zero, I found myself struggling with how best to implement their Dash ability from MMX. Should it be their standard dash? Should it be a side special? In the MMX games, dashing is often mapped to a separate button. Since MMX4, the four face buttons just so happen to have filled four unique functions: Attack, Special, Jump...and Dash. Well, what do you know, MMX might just have had the ideal face button setup for Smash for a long time.

But of course, not every fighter necessarily needs a "Dash" button like X and Zero. What if this fourth face button action varied depending on which fighter you're playing? Perhaps it could play a role like Shield + Special has in the past. Perhaps it could be used for transforming or tag-teaming in cases like Sheik & Zelda, Pokemon Trainer, Pyra & Mythra, etc. Some fighters might be able to access a third set of moves with it (like, say, Vile, who uses three different buttons to attack with his three weapon slots in Maverick Hunter X, thus the Attack, Special, and Action Buttons could each operate one of his three weapon slots in Smash, or Link who could use items like the Pegasus Boots and Power Glove in what would effectively be a second set of specials).

Currently, many players rarely use that fourth face button in Smash, I imagine, since it shares a function with one of the other three. But what if all four face buttons had a distinct function? Maybe in Smash 6? Or a big update for SSBU?

What are your thoughts?

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I honestly like the idea, but i don't think that characters need more flexibility in movesets, if anything, they really need less. That's only from a balance PoV, though.

If your talking simply for fun, then i wouldn't mind seeing something like an egg swap gimmick for B&K, for example. 

Normal --> Fire, --> Grenade --> Ice --> Clockwork, excluding the proximity eggs since those are multi only.

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I dunno. Part of the charm of Smash Bros is that it's a very casual-friendly game that anyone can pick up quickly and easily. Sure, the skill ceiling is high, but the barrier for entry is very low. Switching from a three button control scheme to a four button control scheme isn't going to make it that much harder to pick up, but even fairly small increases in complexity are going to be enough to drive some people away. It's not that they couldn't still get inot the game if they tried, but it could easily be enough to give some people a bad first impression and make them not really want to try. Keeping the entry level as simple as possible is important for a game like Smash Bros.

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Smash is a two button fighter because Sakurai wanted a fighting game that was simple. Whether Smash needs to be as simple as it is currently is up for debate, but I will say I love the pick up and play feel of the game compared to other fighters. Whenever you pick up a new character in Street Fighter, KOF, Mortal Kombat, you're dead if you don't spend some time in the training mode at least committing their special inputs and supers to memory. In Smash, the worst thing that'll happen when picking up a new character is not knowing what your Up B does when it's time to recover. And that one failed attempt will probably teach you all you need to know.

Seeing as they're willing to bend the rules on how a fighter is controlled for certain characters like Ryu or Min Min, I don't see an immediate need for another button, but a character specific action could be great. It'd really prompt the developers to figure out what's going to make each character unique. Good luck when you get to the fire emblem cast, friendos.

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5 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Smash is a two button fighter because Sakurai wanted a fighting game that was simple.

Considering that you have buttons for jumping, attacking, specials, shielding, and even grabbing, I'd argue Smash is not a two-button fighter. And I'd argue fewer buttons actually makes gameplay more complicated, not less, at least if you want a fighter with depth. An extra button can actually help simplify gameplay by giving you more room to spread functions around, requiring fewer button combinations to memorize. And if that extra action varies in complexity by fighter, that just helps diversify fighters further.

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6 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Considering that you have buttons for jumping, attacking, specials, shielding, and even grabbing, I'd argue Smash is not a two-button fighter.

Your attacks are mapped to two buttons. It's not a statement about how many buttons exist on a controller. If Sakurai wanted to, he could have made blocking like any other fighter, and made grabbing A+B, rather than Z + A, but the fact is he was making a game exclusively for the N64. It would have been silly to have the extra buttons go to waste. Nowadays you can remap everything - even removing dedicated grab or jump buttons if you cared.

The point stands about the A and B buttons though. Sakurai thought special inputs created a barrier to understanding the game, so that's how specials ended up on a dedicated button, same as normals.

Quote

And I'd argue fewer buttons actually makes gameplay more complicated, not less, at least if you want a fighter with depth. An extra button can actually help simplify gameplay by giving you more room to spread functions around, requiring fewer button combinations to memorize. 

Take it up with Sakurai, not me. I did say the subject of whether the game needs to be so mechanically simple is up for debate.

Edited by Glennstavos
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15 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Your attacks are mapped to two buttons. It's not a statement about how many buttons exist on a controller. If Sakurai wanted to, he could have made blocking like any other fighter, and made grabbing A+B, rather than Z + A, but the fact is he was making a game exclusively for the N64. It would have been silly to have the extra buttons go to waste. Nowadays you can remap everything - even removing dedicated grab or jump buttons if you cared.

The point stands about the A and B buttons though. Sakurai thought special inputs created a barrier to understanding the game, so that's how specials ended up on a dedicated button, same as normals.

I agree with Sakurai: special inputs - especially directional input combos - are horrid. I vastly prefer the simplistic style of Smash, which ironically also has far more depth than something like Street Fighter or MvC thanks to each fighter having a diverse moveset. Easy to learn, hard to master, as it goes. There's a reason Smash is the most popular fighting game series in the world, and it's not just the all-star cast.

I'm not sure how giving a function to a spare button equates to special inputs, though? If anything, the Action button would push more in the simple direction by letting the player do things that would currently require a combination of buttons, or would take up a special slot. For some fighters, the Action can be as simple as a brief speed boost, like dashing for X and Zero. For others, it could be a third attack/special button, like extra items for Link, leg weapons for Vile, or kicking for Talim. Maybe you'd like Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard to have unique D Specials? Then their shared Action can be changing Pokemon. That's the beauty of the concept - it's flexible and can be tailored on a fighter-by-fighter basis. It's as simple or complex as you want it to be.

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As long as one button (and possibly one direction) = one action, I'm fine with any number of inputs. If the next Smash uses all the face buttons, that's good with me.

 

But the best thing about Smash is that it has intuitive controls. Fighting game controls suck. Quartercircle, zigzag nonsense has never had a place in Smash, even on 3rd party fighting game reps, and future Smash entries need to do away with it entirely.

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16 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Quartercircle, zigzag nonsense

This makes me immediately think Ivy (from Soul Calibur 2's) overly complex throw inputs. 

Which I laugh cause no way in hell could a human realistically pull that off in a real match. I agree with you, essentially. Just funny to me.

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On 3/20/2021 at 7:29 PM, Fabulously Olivier said:

As long as one button (and possibly one direction) = one action, I'm fine with any number of inputs. If the next Smash uses all the face buttons, that's good with me.

But the best thing about Smash is that it has intuitive controls. Fighting game controls suck. Quartercircle, zigzag nonsense has never had a place in Smash, even on 3rd party fighting game reps, and future Smash entries need to do away with it entirely.

As long as it's optional, like is the case with Ryu, Ken, and Terry, I'm fine. You still have the simpler control style in Smash. I just don't care for fighting games where pressing the stick in multiple directions before pressing a button is the only way to use special moves.

Edited by Lord_Brand
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3 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

As long as it's optional, like is the case with Ryu, Ken, and Terry, I'm fine. You still have the simpler control style in Smash. I just don't care for fighting games where DI is the only way to use special moves.

It really isn't optional when the special inputs are stronger. And then you have Terry, who has a really strong comeback mechanic tied to even more obnoxious special inputs.

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6 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

I just don't care for fighting games where DI is the only way to use special moves.

I think this is moreso a balance thing. Give X character too many options and suddenly blocking/dodging their tons of options becomes way too much luck, which isn't fair. 

It's already like that, i don't think making it worse would help.

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6 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

I think this is moreso a balance thing. Give X character too many options and suddenly blocking/dodging their tons of options becomes way too much luck, which isn't fair. 

It's already like that, i don't think making it worse would help.

Making the game harder to play makes it more balanced? I don't follow.

And, keep in mind the Action button wouldn't always equal more attack options. For some characters, it could represent additional defense options, or mobility. It's basically a button that can do whatever it needs to for a particular fighter's gimmick or build, much like Shield + Special does now but with more control flexibility (you wouldn't want to use shield + special to dash, for instance, while the Action button would be perfect for that).

Basically, the Action Button gives moveset designers a little wiggle room. Need a few more attacks? Want your character to transform? Just need a cool dash move? The Action Button's got you covered!

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34 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Making the game harder to play makes it more balanced? I don't follow.

The opposite, actually. Simply too hard to react to that many options, is all I'm saying. 

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Wait, are you referring to DI making the gameplay more imbalanced? If so, I apologize for misunderstanding.

EDIT: Wait, again: Smash uses DI itself, it just uses simple directional inputs like Up + A or Side + B, not junk like Forward-Back-Forward-Punch. So, I guess we should say complex DI combos make the game more imbalanced.

Edited by Lord_Brand
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On 3/19/2021 at 12:02 PM, Glennstavos said:

In Smash, the worst thing that'll happen when picking up a new character is not knowing what your Up B does when it's time to recover. And that one failed attempt will probably teach you all you need to know.

shudders in Ness/Lucas

On 3/20/2021 at 10:29 PM, Fabulously Olivier said:

But the best thing about Smash is that it has intuitive controls. Fighting game controls suck. Quartercircle, zigzag nonsense has never had a place in Smash, even on 3rd party fighting game reps, and future Smash entries need to do away with it entirely.

I don't see it as being that bad. It's not as though recent Nintendo controllers have been having serious issues recognizing directional inputs, or anything terrible like that.

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On 3/21/2021 at 11:00 PM, Lord_Brand said:

Wait, are you referring to DI making the gameplay more imbalanced? If so, I apologize for misunderstanding.

I'll put it like this: what gives this games characters that are "top tier" their slots? 

well, alot of it has to do with the sheer amount of options they have when it comes to mobility, combo game, recovery. Giving them more of these things would just widen the gap, i think.

I don't think they need more options to pressure their opponent, given that they already have alot of great options.

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11 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

I'll put it like this: what gives this games characters that are "top tier" their slots? 

well, alot of it has to do with the sheer amount of options they have when it comes to mobility, combo game, recovery. Giving them more of these things would just widen the gap, i think.

I don't think they need more options to pressure their opponent, given that they already have alot of great options.

But sometimes, designing Smash movesets with the current setup feels like trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. The Action button offers enough wiggle room to make a lot of potential characters' movesets more "comfortable" to design, if that makes sense.

To use X as an example, the dash he uses in his series currently has two viable executions: simply being his dash animation, or being his side special. While I could live with either of those choices, the problem with the first is that X wouldn't get a standard running animation like in his own games (which is the kind of detail this series has become quite keen on) and the dash would have to be continuous, and the problem with the latter is he doesn't get to use a special weapon for his side special. With the Action button, the problem is quite handily solved, as X can use that to dash like he does in his own series. Although, to be fair, I guess they could give X a unique dash ability where he starts with the burst of speed, then segues to a slightly slower but conventional run, allowing you to double-tap repeatedly to make X go faster. But man, is that going to be murder on the joystick. A dedicated Dash button for X would just feel better, you know?

Same deal for Vile: while you could incorporate his three weapon slots within the current moveset structure, it would be way cooler and more satisfying if he played more akin to his MHX self, with three different attack buttons, one each for shoulder, arm, and leg. The attack button uses Vile's arm weapons, the special button uses his shoulder weapons, and the action button uses his leg weapons. It's kinda like how Min Min was designed to simulate the left hand-right hand playstyle of ARMS.

And really, X and Vile represent what I'd consider the plausible extremes for the Action Button's complexity. X gets a simple but useful speed boost while Vile gets a third set of attacks.

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I understand that plenty of "gimmicks" can make characters more fun, but see Joker as an example as to why these can be toxic to the game.

If handled wrong, it takes a lot of enjoyment out for plenty of others.

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That was more a balancing issue than a bad idea in and of itself. That's why you make sure to handle the idea right, so that no character has an overwhelming advantage over everyone else. Shoot, it doesn't even take a gimmick for that to happen (see: Brawl Meta Knight).

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Well, the thing about that is they don't usually handle things right. If they did, Arsene wouldn't be busted! XD

Jokes aside, It can honestly be annoying to see me winning, and the see Joker just get not only a free out, a free stock off the raw power and range he gains for no drawback whatsoever.

TBH, i think they really need to start designing their characters with actual flaws. (I.E landing lag on aerials, worse frame data, etc.)

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Oh, the fighters have flaws, I can tell you that much. Just try playing Little Mac in any stage with a lot of vertical space, like Palutena's Temple. Of course, Mac is a funny case; he's a beast on the ground thanks to his speed and power, but bring him into the air and he goes down like Glass Joe. Most fighters in Smash are consistently good or bad compared to other fighters, but Mac's dominance is determined by the environment in which he battles.

Fact is, perfect balance is impossible to achieve as long as you have a roster as diverse as that of SSBU, so for me the priorities are to make sure no-one is outright broken and to make sure everyone is fun to play. Of course we have to bear in mind that not every character is going to appeal to everyone; I personally don't care for fighters like Duck Hunt or Mr. Game & Watch, while I love playing Link and Donkey Kong. Mega Man and Banjo & Kazooie are a mixed case for me; I like the characters and the series they come from, but their Smash movesets just don't gel with my playstyle. I like to move fast and hit hard, and they just don't offer enough "punch" for my liking. There's also the fact that Mega Man's moveset ultimately doesn't satisfy me as much as I hoped it would; using the Special Weapons as Mega's attacks was a stroke of genius, but he could have used a gimmick involving Special Weapons with limited energy and the ability to switch between them, as well as the ability to charge shots by holding the attack button down. If Mega Man were added as DLC today, his play style would probably be quite different.

But, this isn't a topic for critiquing movesets, it's about discussing the merits and potential of a new gameplay mechanic intended to give moveset designers a little more wiggle room with a button that can do basically whatever a particular moveset needs to feel complete, whether that's granting some kind of mobility boost, extra attacks, the ability to change weapons, or even the ability to transform or tag team between different fighters. In some cases, the Action button could take over a function currently served by a Special or the Shield + Special action (what I like to call Shield Specials), freeing up those slots in turn. I would also explore the potential of Shield Actions (Shield + Action), as a counterpart to Grabbing (Shield + Attack) and Shield Specials.

See, the simple A + B nature of Smash's controls makes it both highly appealing and easy to learn, while also offering a lot of diversity and depth. Giving all four face buttons a unique function just makes the gameplay feel more "complete", to me.

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3 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

so for me the priorities are to make sure no-one is outright broken and to make sure everyone is fun to play

Er... Pikachu is kinda In that category. 

But when I said flaws I was directing that at the better characters of the game, really.

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