FE5 Tier List

[Rodykitty]

Actually I agree that testing can be useful to judge the actual weight of arguments. Personal experience means nothing when it comes to statistical anomalies, but knowing what factors in a character work well is a different story.

[Renall]

Seems like all of the arguments that apply to FE9/10 Mia concerning greatly benefiting from resources can apply to Marty here too.

Well, Mia doesn't have a 0 in Fire Emblem's most important stat.

Not that I think Marty's good or anything, but to add fuel to the fire: the Sety scroll is really good for SPD, and a lot of characters don't especially want it because their SPD is pretty high to begin with and/or they cap out early. It's a lot harder to improve DEF or STR or BLD with scrolling than it is to slap the Sety scroll on someone who is slow.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

I suppose Marty could have a shot at...maybe above Ralph? I wouldn't bother making the case, but I guess there could be a case to be made.

[Blademaster!]

I never said to leave Marty at 1/0 until he rejoins. The reason why I brought this up was because I did use Marty, and he turned out great, and he rejoined me at level 6 I think. And it wasn't that hard to do either. In the early chapters, He's great for capturing due to his steel axe and nice base str, and like Halvan, you could give him the Brave Axe. His hit rate wasn't that much lower than everyone else really (capturing cuts your skill in half, so everyone won't have THAT much more hit than him) and his Dagda support helped him out, as did his luk. Also, most units generally don't double while capturing anyway.

As for Marty's Prepromote speed, like I said, give him the speed ring. The only other person I can see needing a speed ring by the time Marty rejoins you is Dalsin, but he has already been around for a couple have chapters, has a decent spd growth, and has had 2 1/2 chapters to use the sety and Baldo scrolls. It's like how people give FE10 Nepheenee Dracoshields to make her useful since no one else can make as great of use it as she can (apparently), and she's harder to use than Marty in my opinion.

Opinions don't matter in a tier list. Instead of telling us about your personal experience and resource favoritism towards marty, you should construct a real argument using facts and numbers.

How can opinions not matter in a tier list? If you don't have an opinion about something, then you can't make an argument.

And the personal experience that I brought up with him is based on me testing a hypothesis. You can't just come up with a hypothesis and say it's right without testing it to be true, which is where personal experience comes into play. I didn't say anything like "Oh Marty was great! I had him Cap every stat and he killed everything." Also, please look at the comment that Brighton made. He essentially asked me a question that would involve me having to respond with personal experience.

Another reason why I brought up Marty was because on the very first page of this tier list, it was said that you are looking for characters who have more concrete durabillity rather than relying on avoid, and Marty has the best physical durability in the game without the use of scrolls. Dalshien is next followed by I believe Kein, and neither of them have as much Hp as him (16 point difference for Dalshien, 13 for Kein). And I would believe it is fair to assume that someone being used as a shield would have a scroll since they prevent critical hits, which happen quite a bit in this game due to the abundance of battle axe knights, thunder mages, and Yotsmung Dark mages.

And if your not showing the favoritism, that Marty greatly benefits from, to him, then who are you showing it to? It doesn't help me if I don't know who else you would show said favoritism to. I suggested Dalshien, but no one else said anything.

And like I said before, I'm not saying Marty is amazing and should be top tier. I just don't think he should be as low as he is.

I'm just not going to listen to Blademaster at all, considering the level of his arguments in the Gen 2 tier list. Don't mind him.

What's wrong with my Gen 2 arguments? The only thing I've said that people didn't like was the fact that I said you can get Johalva to lvl 20 by chp 8, which is completely possible and I even explained how he could do it.

Okay then, I'll say this: Your opinion about marty's placement doesn't matter in a tier list because you haven't presented any factual data to support him and opted instead to give your PE.

As for the favoritism issue, every resource that you wanted to allocate to marty has plenty of competition among the other units. Leaf wouldn't mind that speed ring, same goes for brighton. The scrolls also have plenty of units who want them: Leaf may want the sety scroll, asvel could take it as well to help with his magic growth in the beginning, brighton wants both sety and odo. This isn't even counting the units who could make great use of those scrolls when recruited later. Marty isn't automatically the top pick when there are so many other units who benefit just as much or better than marty. Hell, I'd even say that the ones I listed are better picks because they at least don't have to climb out of a shitty 0 speed and skill hole unlike with marty.

And your argument for johalva promoting at ch.8 was showing obvious favoritism once again. You were feeding kills to an overleveled unit just so he can promote earlier, it was complete bull and everyone called you out on it.

So perhaps my previous statement should have been read as: Opinions don't matter in a tier list unless they are backed up with a cohesive argument. There you go, now unless you can show everyone here a real argument as to why marty deserves to rise, then don't bother posting.

I actually have given statistical data about Marty's durability which is the main reason why I am arguing that he should be higher, and I have given some input about his skl and spd, but more can be given probably. I wouldn't know whether or not it would be a good idea to mention enemy stats for this game as I have seen vastly different stats between enemies of the same level and class on the same chapter. Plus, I wouldn't know where to find them.....

And I don't want to talk about what I'm about to say anymore since it goes greatly off topic, but obviously you didn't read my argument about Johalva.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

If Marty is getting doubled at decent frequency his durability is looking much less impressive.

Where do you see Marty going up to, anyways?

[Blademaster!]

I don't know actually. I just didn't like the fact that he was low since he has potential to be really usefull. The characters in FE5, like FE7 and FE10, all feel fairly balanced and all of them can be used pretty well for the most part, so it's hard to judge who's better (at least in my opinion).

[Maou]

I never said to leave Marty at 1/0 until he rejoins. The reason why I brought this up was because I did use Marty, and he turned out great, and he rejoined me at level 6 I think. And it wasn't that hard to do either. In the early chapters, He's great for capturing due to his steel axe and nice base str, and like Halvan, you could give him the Brave Axe. His hit rate wasn't that much lower than everyone else really (capturing cuts your skill in half, so everyone won't have THAT much more hit than him) and his Dagda support helped him out, as did his luk. Also, most units generally don't double while capturing anyway.

As for Marty's Prepromote speed, like I said, give him the speed ring. The only other person I can see needing a speed ring by the time Marty rejoins you is Dalsin, but he has already been around for a couple have chapters, has a decent spd growth, and has had 2 1/2 chapters to use the sety and Baldo scrolls. It's like how people give FE10 Nepheenee Dracoshields to make her useful since no one else can make as great of use it as she can (apparently), and she's harder to use than Marty in my opinion.

Opinions don't matter in a tier list. Instead of telling us about your personal experience and resource favoritism towards marty, you should construct a real argument using facts and numbers.

How can opinions not matter in a tier list? If you don't have an opinion about something, then you can't make an argument.

And the personal experience that I brought up with him is based on me testing a hypothesis. You can't just come up with a hypothesis and say it's right without testing it to be true, which is where personal experience comes into play. I didn't say anything like "Oh Marty was great! I had him Cap every stat and he killed everything." Also, please look at the comment that Brighton made. He essentially asked me a question that would involve me having to respond with personal experience.

Another reason why I brought up Marty was because on the very first page of this tier list, it was said that you are looking for characters who have more concrete durabillity rather than relying on avoid, and Marty has the best physical durability in the game without the use of scrolls. Dalshien is next followed by I believe Kein, and neither of them have as much Hp as him (16 point difference for Dalshien, 13 for Kein). And I would believe it is fair to assume that someone being used as a shield would have a scroll since they prevent critical hits, which happen quite a bit in this game due to the abundance of battle axe knights, thunder mages, and Yotsmung Dark mages.

And if your not showing the favoritism, that Marty greatly benefits from, to him, then who are you showing it to? It doesn't help me if I don't know who else you would show said favoritism to. I suggested Dalshien, but no one else said anything.

And like I said before, I'm not saying Marty is amazing and should be top tier. I just don't think he should be as low as he is.

I'm just not going to listen to Blademaster at all, considering the level of his arguments in the Gen 2 tier list. Don't mind him.

What's wrong with my Gen 2 arguments? The only thing I've said that people didn't like was the fact that I said you can get Johalva to lvl 20 by chp 8, which is completely possible and I even explained how he could do it.

Okay then, I'll say this: Your opinion about marty's placement doesn't matter in a tier list because you haven't presented any factual data to support him and opted instead to give your PE.

As for the favoritism issue, every resource that you wanted to allocate to marty has plenty of competition among the other units. Leaf wouldn't mind that speed ring, same goes for brighton. The scrolls also have plenty of units who want them: Leaf may want the sety scroll, asvel could take it as well to help with his magic growth in the beginning, brighton wants both sety and odo. This isn't even counting the units who could make great use of those scrolls when recruited later. Marty isn't automatically the top pick when there are so many other units who benefit just as much or better than marty. Hell, I'd even say that the ones I listed are better picks because they at least don't have to climb out of a shitty 0 speed and skill hole unlike with marty.

And your argument for johalva promoting at ch.8 was showing obvious favoritism once again. You were feeding kills to an overleveled unit just so he can promote earlier, it was complete bull and everyone called you out on it.

So perhaps my previous statement should have been read as: Opinions don't matter in a tier list unless they are backed up with a cohesive argument. There you go, now unless you can show everyone here a real argument as to why marty deserves to rise, then don't bother posting.

I actually have given statistical data about Marty's durability which is the main reason why I am arguing that he should be higher, and I have given some input about his skl and spd, but more can be given probably. I wouldn't know whether or not it would be a good idea to mention enemy stats for this game as I have seen vastly different stats between enemies of the same level and class on the same chapter. Plus, I wouldn't know where to find them.....

And I don't want to talk about what I'm about to say anymore since it goes greatly off topic, but obviously you didn't read my argument about Johalva.

I'm not going to go any further with marty. Even though it's greatly off topic, I did indeed read your johalva argument. I still don't see how you considered that argument effective, but you can go ahead and try to defend it further only to get countered like the first time.

[Blutritter]

The generals are probably too low. Both can use every weapon indoors, and every axe once recruited. Their not so high AS can be worked around in general, especially since they lose almost none to none period from the weightier and effective weapons. Concrete physical durability is more of a boon throughout than the magical variety - yet again. That makes them perfectly reasonable additions to a team. Both enjoy supports from a forced lord. Etc.

Maybe not quite as high ranked as characters like most of the magic users or great knights, but not a two tier gap in any case.

[Fei Mao]

The generals are probably too low. Both can use every weapon indoors, and every axe once recruited. Their not so high AS can be worked around in general, especially since they lose almost none to none period from the weightier and effective weapons. Concrete physical durability is more of a boon throughout than the magical variety - yet again. That makes them perfectly reasonable additions to a team. Both enjoy supports from a forced lord. Etc.

Maybe not quite as high ranked as characters like most of the magic users or great knights, but not a two tier gap in any case.

Problem is that most enemies wield hammers, and class effective weapons mean almost instant death in this game, and also movement problems.

[Blutritter]

Sorry, I'm not convinced. You're going to have to define 'most enemies'.

You keep them out of range of hammers or send them down another route on the map as you would keep some magician you're raising out of range of an enemy that downs them in one hit, or several that can easily overwhelm them. Or have to gimp some mounted unit or flyer you're raising by dismounting them because of horseslaying weapons/ballistae. Is it such a huge difference? 5-6 movement isn't as much of a problem as you're making it out to be because units with more of it tend to be auto-gimped indoors and tend to be very much killable if they try to be gung-ho with it outdoors.

[Icon of Sin]

Sorry, I'm not convinced. You're going to have to define 'most enemies'.

A good number of Axe Knights and Axe Armors have Hammers from mid to lategame, as well as a few Mountain Thieves and Berserkers late game.

Rapiers are also pretty common in the hands of Mage Knights and Social Knights.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Dr. Rockso

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Sorry, I'm not convinced. You're going to have to define 'most enemies'.

If anyone has to do any convincing, it's you and that's not happening with what you've said so far. Like he said, many enemies in this game are packing hammer and rapiers.

You keep them out of range of hammers or send them down another route on the map as you would keep some magician you're raising out of range of an enemy that downs them in one hit, or several that can easily overwhelm them. Or have to gimp some mounted unit or flyer you're raising by dismounting them because of horseslaying weapons/ballistae. Is it such a huge difference? 5-6 movement isn't as much of a problem as you're making it out to be because units with more of it tend to be auto-gimped indoors and tend to be very much killable if they try to be gung-ho with it outdoors.

Thus you keep them out of range of many enemies. Hmm, a combat unit kept away from combat often... it's bad enough that they have doubling issues.

Edited October 6, 2009 by ?!

[Blutritter]

Sorry, I'm not convinced. You're going to have to define 'most enemies'.

If anyone has to do any convincing, it's you and that's not happening with what you've said so far. Like he said, many enemies in this game are packing hammer and rapiers.

So you just regurgitate what he said. Brilliant.

I don't know if anyone's noticed, but hammers aren't one-shotting generals as consistently as horseslaying weapons or ballistae are one-shotting mounted units/flyers. And free-roaming promoted enemies with armor-effective weapons aren't showing up as early. Furthermore, hammers have a measly 45 hit, the enemies that carry them are often the very slowest of types and kind of skill-challenged, they like to get AS-screwed with them, brigands don't especially favor them, the mountain thieves on ch. 19 don't even attack on their phase.........

In an open space, enemies are fond of attacking units who can't counterattack or pose a ORKO threat to them, and take cavaliers: they are no exception. Cavaliers are fond of complementing rapiers with javelins. i.e. Dalshin can deal with the ones in ch. 7 in a formation of other units by having a hand axe if not a halberd equipped on their phase. Most anyone locked to swords, meanwhile, has no answer to a halberd equivalent and is fighting in vain over anything ranged. There's simply no guarantee the remainder with long lances would even attack Dalshin, up to the ones with as high as.....9 strength&AS parameters. They're easily satisfied with aiming for a less sturdier unit like Leaf, with lower accuracy, as long as they can take off as much of his HP with a long lance or more as they would whittle down Dalshin's with a rapier. A long lance not only has ~ might as an armor/horse-striking rapier, but the average Leaf doesn't hit half of Dalshin's base defense by level 10 or so - not at all an implausible scenario.

You keep them out of range of hammers or send them down another route on the map as you would keep some magician you're raising out of range of an enemy that downs them in one hit, or several that can easily overwhelm them. Or have to gimp some mounted unit or flyer you're raising by dismounting them because of horseslaying weapons/ballistae. Is it such a huge difference? 5-6 movement isn't as much of a problem as you're making it out to be because units with more of it tend to be auto-gimped indoors and tend to be very much killable if they try to be gung-ho with it outdoors.

Thus you keep them out of range of many enemies. Hmm, a combat unit kept away from combat often... it's bad enough that they have doubling issues.

I went over the many enemies nonsense, and can go over it some more. Yeah, doubling issues they can work around in a breeze to the point they're completely moot due to the abundance of slow enemies, Xavier's skillset, certain weapons not in high demand by many units......are you being deliberately dense?

[Salad Utensil]

Doubling

Dalshien basically requires Brave axe to double until promotion, but EVERYONE who uses at least D axes wants it. Xavier can double about the same amount as Dalshien, but he has charge so he wins here. Also he has the not so wanted Brave bow so Xavier has very little good competition for it.

2 Range

Xavier can use Brave bow b/c only he and selphina can use it (BTW Selphina fails so...). Brave bow is awesome with 95 hit and 14 might and 20 crit. Dalshien is stuck using hand axes with 45 hit. No one has reliable accuracy with hand axes. About Master Axes Dalshien doesn't double until after promotion so it isn't unheard of him not reaching A axes by the time Xavier joins.

1 Range

BTW Xavier has C swords so you can give him king sword too if you are inclined to. He can also use any axe and any bow that you can spare for him. Dalshien is stuck using much sought after axes and crappy iron sword and bows.

Offensive

Wrath>no wrath, Charge is actually useful for Xavier b/c of his 6 spd and good durability so it doesnt hurt him. Also access to better weapons.

Defensively:

Dalshien actually is better defensively, but barely. Xavier has a leadership star and the unreliable great shield to negate dalshiens one point win in defense and like 5 more avo.

Availibility:

Now this has to most weight in terms of positions...however one can argue that Dalshien's lead is rather meaningless. My burden of proof is to show after the manster chapters Dalshien is not very useful and even gives negative utility.

It is no denying during chapters 4-5 Dalshien is great if given the brave axe. Your only fighter that can take at least 4 physical hits w/o dying. However he has terrible hit and accuracy here as well so doesn't kill reliably like fergus

He is one of the best fighters there. But come chapter 6 Karin instantly becomes useful and can visit the western villages and the knights can mount. His five move becomes detrimental in the next few escape chapters and carrying him causes movement penalties. In fact in SSS runs which focus on effenciency until Corple's warp staff becomes god by chapter 10 it is actually recommended to have dalshien captured in order to lower turn count.

But lets say we want to keep him even though he his five move and armoredness becomes detrimental to gameplay after chapter 5, here is what happens:

Chapter 6 Hurts turncourt

Chapter 7 will likely be the last PC to reach Mease and also will get doubled by the swordfighters with kill swords and silvers, hurting turncount

Chapter 8 decent in this chapter, but is likely fatigued

Chapter 8X there are hammer wielding bandits in the mansion somewhere so you have to be careful with him. (magic is very useful to kill gomes in this chapter)

Chapter 9 The terrain prevents dalshien from reaching the mansion unless carried or goes the long way

Chapter 10 Good dodge is actually useful as everyone gets 2-3hKOed by the long range weapons and 5 move gets in the way.

Chapter 11 useful here i suppose. Most indoor units are

Chapter 11X there are mages in the gauntlet run and dalshien has bad dodge, bad resistence, low movement, and has very low hit with hand axes.

Chapter 12 anyone can be good in this chapter

Chapter 12X Warp skip

Chapter 13 escape chapter is bad for dalshien he will waste too many turns reaching tahra

Chapter 14 hammer wielding axe armors!!!!!

Chapter 14X He gets hit hard by the dark mages and the killer axe hero doubles him

Chapter 15 he reduces the movement of Karin, Dean and Eda if he is carried to the village

Chapter 16 Varies

Chapter 17 Varies

Chapter 18 Lenster armor knights have hammers! by now xavier is recruited.

In summary: Dalshien shouldn't be fielded after Manster prison escape he should be left behind by chapter 6 >.>

Doesn't really state explicitly why Dalshien is bad, but shows some points as to why dalshien is bad in some points you missed

[Maou]

Don't know if this was argued or not, but I think salem, linoan, and sara all have a case to move one place up while homeros moves to bottom of high. Salem has staff utility, availability, and decent combat while the girls both have staff utility over homeros. As for homeros, he basically turns out to be an inferior asvel with some more avoid thanks to his luck growth.

Considering how most of the arguments in this topic have favored high ranked staff units over superfluous combat units, I'd say that this change would be pretty fair. Of course, it's late at night and I really don't feel like getting into a long argument, but I felt the need to start up the engine on this topic. ^_^

[Salad Utensil]

Don't know if this was argued or not, but I think salem, linoan, and sara all have a case to move one place up while homeros moves to bottom of high. Salem has staff utility, availability, and decent combat while the girls both have staff utility over homeros. As for homeros, he basically turns out to be an inferior asvel with some more avoid thanks to his luck growth.

Considering how most of the arguments in this topic have favored high ranked staff units over superfluous combat units, I'd say that this change would be pretty fair. Of course, it's late at night and I really don't feel like getting into a long argument, but I felt the need to start up the engine on this topic. ^_^

I agree, but i think part of the reason he is up there is because Asvel can't use resire? Since that elite+5pcc is the only thing going for him (which is overkill), I doesn't make him that much better than the others offensively, defensively he is=to Salem. It was proven Salem with wind could 1RKO generics. By he loses by a lot utility-wise. I can see him at the bottom of high though

[cheetah7071]

Reposting this from FEgenesis in the hope it gets some replies here. I was arguing Tanya>Delmud.

Here's a look at chapter 21 Tanya, in range of her Othin support. I assume she got the Neir and Hezul scrolls for ~60% of her levelups between levels 7 and 20, and Dain and Hezul 60% for the remainder. Effectively, I just turned +10% growths into +6% growths, and so on. I don't think the community has agreed on just how much people can be assumed to have scrolls, so I'm eyeballing things here.

Tanya 20/5, in range of Othin support:

38 hp

9 def

5 mag

Steel bow: 25 mt, 118(+leadership) acc, 15 AS, 58(+leadership) eva, 30 crit

Silver bow: 30 mt, 128(+leadership) acc, 18 AS, 64(+leadership) eva, 30 crit

Killer bow: 26 mt, 128(+leadership) acc, 18 AS, 64(+leadership) eva, 60 crit

Brave bow: 29 mt, 153(+leadership) acc, 17 AS, 62(+leadership) eva, 50 crit

Tanya has 2 PCC, so even with a 0 crit weapon, she has a 90% chance of critting at least once over two attacks, which kills basically anything. And then of course her only real competition for the brave bow is Xavier, who has plenty of other options (enough bld to make the master bow plausible, if nothing else).

Here's base level Delmud, in range of Nanna support (Nanna's charisma factored in):

36 hp

9 def (8 unmounted)

5 mag

Steel sword: 20 mt, 116(+leadership) acc, 12 AS, 51(+leadership) eva, 22 crit

Master sword: 25 mt, 111(+leadership) acc, 8 AS, 43(+leadership) eva, 32 crit

Beo sword: 27 mt, 121(+leadership) acc, 10 AS, 47(+leadership) eva, 52 crit

5 PCC, so he's always critting anything he doubles. And if that's ever in doubt, the Beo sword grants wrath and ambush. He also has charisma as a personal skill.

Defensively, Tanya wins. Higher hp, tied defense and magic, higher evasion, even with Delmud always in range of Nanna's charisma, which Tanya can take advantage of too. The difference isn't huge, but the difference is there, and is a point in Tanya's favor.

Player phase offense is identical. They both kill whatever they target. Tanya doesn't have to take a counter from a significant number of enemies, though, while Delmud does. This drives Delmud's defense down more; he has to rely on a 25% crit or a heal staff to avoid going into the enemy phase with less than full hp.

So, now some points in Delmud's favor. He has 2 more move by this point (Tanya's move rounds up to 8 at this level), and of course has canto. However, out of the remaining chapters, only 21, 22, and 23 are outdoor chapters. 21x is usually just raided for treasure and then left without combat, but that leaves 24, 24x, and 2final as indoor chapters--a full half of Delmud's availibility. In indoor chapters, he loses canto, and actually has _less_ movement than Tanya.

Delmud also has enemy-phase offense. Provided he can counter the enemy, he insta-blicks them with an ambush critical 25% of the time, and is pretty much guaranteed to kill them with his pursuit attack. Taking a look at chapter 22 enemies, though, he's 3HKOed even if you give him a few levels, and the Gelpritter occasionally 2HKOs him. Factoring in his ambush crits, he can afford to face 2-3 enemies before you're putting him in a tactically unsound position. This is no challenge in chapters 21, 24, and final, but severely limits his enemy phase offense in chapters 22, 23 and 24x--half his availibility.

Tanya has the same durability concerns, but we all already know archers have bad enemy phases--I merely wanted to show Delmud's enemy phase isn't so hot either.

Delmud's final advantage is charisma. No real explanation is needed.

So, during the time Delmud is present, he has over Tanya charisma, a mediocre (as opposed to terrible) enemy phase, and (half the time) movement. Tanya has over him a slight durability lead, and movement the other half the time.

A Delmud win? Maybe. But if so, a slight one. And here's the kicker-- Tanya has 20 more chapters of availibility. The only way this is not a blowout in Tanya's favor is if she actually has negative utility while training her. I'd be _very_ happy to argue against anyone who thinks that, but for now I'll let this argument rest.

[Mekkah]

I can pretty much agree to this change...but I don't really feel like updating the list here when there's FE Genesis.

[cheetah7071]

I can pretty much agree to this change...but I don't really feel like updating the list here when there's FE Genesis.

To be fair, I posted this on FEgenesis as well.

[Maou]

I can pretty much agree to this change...but I don't really feel like updating the list here when there's FE Genesis.

So are you abandoning this list in favor for the one on Fe genesis?

If so, then no wonder why this topic has been dead for a long ass time. :/

[Mekkah]

Well, it's not like there were lots of posts here to do something with!

I guess I can synch updates...

[Maou]

Well, it's not like there were lots of posts here to do something with!

I guess I can synch updates...

Yeah, that is true.

But you don't have to do any synching if I happen to be the only one who isn't checking out genesis.

[Salad Utensil]

Well, it's not like there were lots of posts here to do something with!

I guess I can synch updates...

Yeah, that is true.

But you don't have to do any synching if I happen to be the only one who isn't checking out genesis.

If you are willing to update...

Sleuf seems to just be in upper mid, at a seemingly random spot for the 2nd most likely PC to reach A staves in a PT. Move him to just under Sara? unless people actually care about her offense. Its not like Sara, Linoan, and Salem will reach A staves by the time he gets recruited anyways.

Is something more in-depth needed?

[cheetah7071]

Sleuf definitely needs to go over Leaf. It's not like either is good at fighting, and staves>Light brand.

[Mekkah]

Leaf doesn't just have Light Brand though. He also has leadership stars, supports, huge availability...and move stars, but Sleuf has those as well.