Why are supports still considered to be a good form of storytelling in FE?

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, JimmyBeans said:

Considering what the argument is it isn't really derailing, because if I'm correct than it proves that supports aren't needed which is tied to the beginning of this thread. 

As to how Gray's traits connect with each other there is something you seem to miss, and that like *most* of the starting Ram Crew, they start as pretty blank slates and as the war goes on they change, they don't really have these moments at the beginning, but they make something of them selves as the game goes on, and as they get XP and level up and get farther down their chosen classes their views on things develop and change. 

Their personalities are open enough that someone like Tobin could be a total pushover and you could believe it, or maybe even rival Alm as the legitimacy of this varies depending on who is playing the game, so many fans of the older games bring this kind of stuff a lot because it can help others get attached to characters better, this is why people like iron mans as well because death of player characters is an integral part of this series. You say you don't understand how people like the Ram villagers so much, but maybe this will give some insight as many in this community are attached in a way to atleast 1 on them. So as for what's really there, there is a lot when you add the gameplay and I choose to bring this up because I don't think I can convince you that the lines he has are sufficient even though I still believe that there are. (I recommend doing a quick read of Tobins base convos and seeing that change in tone especially towards the end).

Other characters have more going for them right away because they have different established standings in the world at large, we already discussed Forsyth and Python being good minor characters, something SOV does as well as instead of being just the lord and his advisors (like in the older games) a lot more people contribute in the main story like Clair, Clive, Lukas and even Gray and Tobin, which is where a lot of their characterization lies as well. There are bad characters that would of benefitted from lots of supports in the game, but overall this game showed me that even in modern FE supports are not needed for great characters, loads and loads of lines do not equal = good and more often than not characters telling unique stories from gameplay is what will always be the real seller.

Lysithea did not get popular because of her supports after all...

That’s an entirely different argument altogether from my main point. Basically what you’re arguing here is that yeah their characterization is really weak but that’s okay because that’s kind of the point. It leans more into that old school rpg mentality of the player creating their own narratives out of it through the game’s systems and the player’s own anecdotal experiences which is completely fair(it’s the same reason I like pokemon so much and do Nuzlockes a lot) but it doesn’t actually counter my argument.
 

In fact it supports my argument if anything. Cause my main argument was never “I don’t understand how people could like these characters” but rather “how can people say these characters are better written than the characters in fates or awakening?” Cause a person can like these characters all they want for whatever reason they want. That’s just how personal preference works. Don’t get me wrong I totally get the appeal of this approach to character writing in rpgs especially older ones. The characters have basic personalities and are purposely not as fleshed out(even though developer interviews would suggest otherwise) as to allow the player to project whatever they want onto them based on their anecdotal experiences. it’s when I see people say these characters are better written than the ones in Fates and awakening I have to roll my eyes because that’s not true and I have already proven as such. They don’t have that level of depth and characterization that a character like Severa has because they’re not designed to(well again developer interviews completely suggest otherwise at least in regards to SoV that was totally the intent with the original gaiden though). It’s not the fact that people like these characters that bother me. It’s the double standard that does. Because people will prattle on and on about how awakening and Fates are one dimensional gimmicks when SoV are much worse in that regard. Again, I despise the double standard.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Ottservia

[MagicCanonBalls]

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think that says more about how they were (Fates especially, but also I think Awakening too) poorly implemented into the story than anything about their supports. Personally to me the 2nd Gen of both those games are most memorable from the DLC campaigns where they actually are involved with the plot. Though maybe that's just my bias putting more precedence on an actual narrative rather than supports. Still though, I think if the issue is that you have characters who literally can't be developed in the main story, that's a bigger problem than the relatively small band aid of giving them supports can help..

Personally I don't see what's bad with them not being able to fit into the main narrative, but mostly because I focus more on gameplay and more characters for me to mess around with in each playthrough is a good thing. DLC is in the same vein as support convo, as they let side characters and side stories be the focus. Like FE4/5, their story is old-school edgy and cliche yet everyone spent so much time talking bout basically the same storyline. For example, that fire mage and the knight at prologue didn't add much, and iirc didn't do much in the main story afterwards either, but their entrance is hilarious enough that I might want to see more of their own interaction without seeing them in the main story. And then there is the young strategist boy in the beginning and Arden who I would not remember existed if not for FE Heroes, but Kellam who has similar trait is much more memorable because support existed. It helps the main story of Awakening because even though I don't really use him in battle, I still remember him as part of Shepard and Chrom is leading an army of elite fighters. Tellius also is an example of trying to cram too much in their main story. Most of characters I liked are on surface level based on how cool they look, like Stefan, Nailah and her wolf boy, and Illyana. I liked Zihark and Soren at first but the more they comment and talk in the main story the more I dislike them, and Ike went from annoying in PoR to become my least favorite character in the whole FE because IS try so hard to make him the hero of everybody including his enemy in the main story. If his support spread out a little bit far and outside of his comfort zone he might not look so bad to me.

A similar example that come to mind is Valkyrie Chronicles 4, at first I though other the main 4, the rest is just unimportant faces with minimal exposure. However to my surprise most of them actually get their own paralogue and some are even required to unlock additional characters. I would say the gaming experience increased positively ever since paralogue unlocked because it makes playing with those units much more satisfying and wholesome. Granted I also skipped most of those dialogue in game so I can rewatched them on youtube at x2.0 speed instead. I might have liked Tellius story tad better had I realized I can do this at the time of playing, the narrator is just too slow and needlessly lengthen the exposition with so much words that basically means the same thing.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

Personally I don't see what's bad with them not being able to fit into the main narrative, but mostly because I focus more on gameplay and more characters for me to mess around with in each playthrough is a good thing. DLC is in the same vein as support convo, as they let side characters and side stories be the focus. Like FE4/5, their story is old-school edgy and cliche yet everyone spent so much time talking bout basically the same storyline. For example, that fire mage and the knight at prologue didn't add much, and iirc didn't do much in the main story afterwards either, but their entrance is hilarious enough that I might want to see more of their own interaction without seeing them in the main story. And then there is the young strategist boy in the beginning and Arden who I would not remember existed if not for FE Heroes, but Kellam who has similar trait is much more memorable because support existed. It helps the main story of Awakening because even though I don't really use him in battle, I still remember him as part of Shepard and Chrom is leading an army of elite fighters. Tellius also is an example of trying to cram too much in their main story. Most of characters I liked are on surface level based on how cool they look, like Stefan, Nailah and her wolf boy, and Illyana. I liked Zihark and Soren at first but the more they comment and talk in the main story the more I dislike them, and Ike went from annoying in PoR to become my least favorite character in the whole FE because IS try so hard to make him the hero of everybody including his enemy in the main story. If his support spread out a little bit far and outside of his comfort zone he might not look so bad to me.

A similar example that come to mind is Valkyrie Chronicles 4, at first I though other the main 4, the rest is just unimportant faces with minimal exposure. However to my surprise most of them actually get their own paralogue and some are even required to unlock additional characters. I would say the gaming experience increased positively ever since paralogue unlocked because it makes playing with those units much more satisfying and wholesome. Granted I also skipped most of those dialogue in game so I can rewatched them on youtube at x2.0 speed instead. I might have liked Tellius story tad better had I realized I can do this at the time of playing, the narrator is just too slow and needlessly lengthen the exposition with so much words that basically means the same thing.

That Fire Mage and Knight from the prologue are very much important to the overall main story, as it's their direct relatives that are the bad guys in Gen 1 of Holy War. So I fully hope and expect to see more of those relationships expanded upon in the hypothetical Genealogy Remake. Zihark also isn't a main character in Path of Radiance, like at all. I think he can be killed by the player without seeing a single line of dialogue from him (or well except a battle quote, and maybe he does have some predepoyment dialogue, but he's a pretty minor character all things considered).

Other that there's much I can say, other than we have different values. It's not so much that I object to the existence of minor characters, but I do want new characters to be introduced into the story in a natural way. One thin that really irks me about New Mystery is that characters just randomly show up and join your army between chapters with no integration into the time or place the plot is currently at.

And as far as the Awakening characters go, they do get pretty solid introductions, if taken in isolation., but I really feel like it's a missed opportunity that they aren't actually part of the plot of the second half of the game. It makes the Valm arc feel like filler, and also makes their own introduction feel like filler. I just find there's a weird disconnect between all their backstories and how they're introduced. The chapters themselves are usually fine as chapters, but there is an overarching story going on here, and by all rights it is their overarching story, yet (obviously Lucina aside) they are wholly disconnected from what's actually going on. It barely feels like they even have any interest in saving their future with the outright shenanigans they get involved with other than the war. And the reason why that is I think comes down to gameplay more than plot, since they wanted to give you time to build up parent units before recruiting the child units, so putting them directly in the plot would introduce a time limitation for their creation. But I think they could have least done that with one or two of that characters aside from Lucina to integrate the future and the past beyond supports and silly recruitment scenarios.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Jotari

[JimmyBeans]

21 hours ago, Ottservia said:

That’s an entirely different argument altogether from my main point. Basically what you’re arguing here is that yeah their characterization is really weak but that’s okay because that’s kind of the point. It leans more into that old school rpg mentality of the player creating their own narratives out of it through the game’s systems and the player’s own anecdotal experiences which is completely fair(it’s the same reason I like pokemon so much and do Nuzlockes a lot) but it doesn’t actually counter my argument.
 

In fact it supports my argument if anything. Cause my main argument was never “I don’t understand how people could like these characters” but rather “how can people say these characters are better written than the characters in fates or awakening?” Cause a person can like these characters all they want for whatever reason they want. That’s just how personal preference works. Don’t get me wrong I totally get the appeal of this approach to character writing in rpgs especially older ones. The characters have basic personalities and are purposely not as fleshed out(even though developer interviews would suggest otherwise) as to allow the player to project whatever they want onto them based on their anecdotal experiences. it’s when I see people say these characters are better written than the ones in Fates and awakening I have to roll my eyes because that’s not true and I have already proven as such. They don’t have that level of depth and characterization that a character like Severa has because they’re not designed to(well again developer interviews completely suggest otherwise at least in regards to SoV that was totally the intent with the original gaiden though). It’s not the fact that people like these characters that bother me. It’s the double standard that does. Because people will prattle on and on about how awakening and Fates are one dimensional gimmicks when SoV are much worse in that regard. Again, I despise the double standard.

In earlier post I made a point that the loads of supports can be harmful to a character though, so you believe that characters like Severa are objectively better than SOV's characters but that isn't a fact. I have said in almost every response that loads of lines does not make someone better, even if they have all these random traits. You will find many vets in this community say Leaf is the greatest written lord in the series and one of the greatest written characters in this franchise, why do you think that is? I can tell you that he has way less lines and characterization than Severa does, he has less definable personality traits than her as well, yet loads of individuals, even ones who haven't played the game would consider him as such. What does he offer to the story, and what is his place in it? When we look at that it might seem unfair considering he's a lord and Severa is not, so what about Haar? as someone brought up earlier? He has a silly gimmick but his place in Tellius as well as what he offers to the story is immense for a side character such as himself and his lines are used very well. I would consider him to be a better written character than almost every fates/awakening character. 

You say you proved that awakefates characters are better written, but you've only proved that you don't mind the repetitive nature of supports as well as the slice-of-life nature stuff the supports offer, but is that really required to make the best characters? What you like is ok, but this is a perspective that is not unique to me in this community, just like yours is shared with many others. My praise for the majority of SOV characters is that they add a perspective and fit in the world they live in very well, when the good moments of awakafates characters (barring some exceptions) seem to be buried in those said gimmiks beating you over the head. The gimmiks of the SOV characters are less obvious and more subtle (except the obvious stinkers) which is a legit argument for them being better written.

I'm a large advocate for Cain from FE11, he imo is one of the best written characters in this franchise because of his personal journey told in like 10 lines in the prologue only being tied in by Marth remembering his words in the final chapter and his death quote. If he had supports that focused on his guilt and had many interactions with others diving into that would he be a better character? Maybe... But it could easily make him much... Much worse. His lines in the prologue are written so well and you could drown out the impact of those lines very easily, would it give him more characterization? yes. But the point is that it doesn't make a character better just by having it. And I argue that He would be a WORSE character with that. 

The world building is rightfully criticized in awakfates imo, because a lot of the characters have a tendency to be incredibly random and not really fit in that well which is a part of why they aren't as good on average as SOV characters.

Also this is all still relevant to this thread, there is ironically a lot more to what makes a character good or bad then characterization.

[Ottservia]

10 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

In earlier post I made a point that the loads of supports can be harmful to a character though, so you believe that characters like Severa are objectively better than SOV's characters but that isn't a fact. I have said in almost every response that loads of lines does not make someone better, even if they have all these random traits. You will find many vets in this community say Leaf is the greatest written lord in the series and one of the greatest written characters in this franchise, why do you think that is? I can tell you that he has way less lines and characterization than Severa does, he has less definable personality traits than her as well, yet loads of individuals, even ones who haven't played the game would consider him as such. What does he offer to the story, and what is his place in it? When we look at that it might seem unfair considering he's a lord and Severa is not, so what about Haar? as someone brought up earlier? He has a silly gimmick but his place in Tellius as well as what he offers to the story is immense for a side character such as himself and his lines are used very well. I would consider him to be a better written character than almost every fates/awakening character. 

That’s an unfair comparison though because Leif is a main lord and as such has screen time and character development over the course of the main story so the comparison doesn’t work. People like Leif because they can relate to his struggles that he experiences through his journey which make him a nuanced. He’s the protagonist of a well written story if he wasn’t nuanced then I would be surprised. Again this comparison doesn’t mean anything. It’s a moot argument so we’re moving on.

 

14 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

You say you proved that awakefates characters are better written, but you've only proved that you don't mind the repetitive nature of supports as well as the slice-of-life nature stuff the supports offer, but is that really required to make the best characters? What you like is ok, but this is a perspective that is not unique to me in this community, just like yours is shared with many others. My praise for the majority of SOV characters is that they add a perspective and fit in the world they live in very well, when the good moments of awakafates characters (barring some exceptions) seem to be buried in those said gimmiks beating you over the head. The gimmiks of the SOV characters are less obvious and more subtle (except the obvious stinkers) which is a legit argument for them being better written.

No it isn’t because arguing whether or not a character being gimmicky at all is indicative of poor writing is a stupid argument in it of itself. Cause all a character “gimmick” really is just a overly pronounced personality trait like Inigo’s flirting for instance. Whether a character has a “gimmick” should not indicate if they’re inherently poorly written. I feel like that’s a close minded way to look at it. Here’s the thing. A character is either one dimensional or not. A character having a “gimmick” does not inherently make the character one dimensional. What makes a character one dimensional is if the character doesn’t have anything to them beyond their surface level personality traits or “gimmick”. In the case of most awakening and Fates characters that is not the case where as that is the case with a lot of SoV characters(See Faye, Silque, Jesse, Gray, Kliff, etc.). In that sense, these characters are more one dimensional than Fates and Awakening characters because I can tell you more about who Inigo is as a person than I could tell you about Gray. Cause y’know Inigo actually has layers to his character and different components that all feed into each other that give him depth and complexity. Gray does not have any that.
 

My argument isn’t “more supports/dialogue is always good”(even though more character interaction is never a bad thing mind you) but rather “more nuanced characterization is always good” because characterization is arguably the most important aspect of character writing. It’s never the quantity of dialogue, supports, or whatever. It’s always the quality of those things which I feel SoV sorely lacks in. 

[JimmyBeans]

19 hours ago, Ottservia said:

That’s an unfair comparison though because Leif is a main lord and as such has screen time and character development over the course of the main story so the comparison doesn’t work. People like Leif because they can relate to his struggles that he experiences through his journey which make him a nuanced. He’s the protagonist of a well written story if he wasn’t nuanced then I would be surprised. Again this comparison doesn’t mean anything. It’s a moot argument so we’re moving on.

 

No it isn’t because arguing whether or not a character being gimmicky at all is indicative of poor writing is a stupid argument in it of itself. Cause all a character “gimmick” really is just a overly pronounced personality trait like Inigo’s flirting for instance. Whether a character has a “gimmick” should not indicate if they’re inherently poorly written. I feel like that’s a close minded way to look at it. Here’s the thing. A character is either one dimensional or not. A character having a “gimmick” does not inherently make the character one dimensional. What makes a character one dimensional is if the character doesn’t have anything to them beyond their surface level personality traits or “gimmick”. In the case of most awakening and Fates characters that is not the case where as that is the case with a lot of SoV characters(See Faye, Silque, Jesse, Gray, Kliff, etc.). In that sense, these characters are more one dimensional than Fates and Awakening characters because I can tell you more about who Inigo is as a person than I could tell you about Gray. Cause y’know Inigo actually has layers to his character and different components that all feed into each other that give him depth and complexity. Gray does not have any that.
 

My argument isn’t “more supports/dialogue is always good”(even though more character interaction is never a bad thing mind you) but rather “more nuanced characterization is always good” because characterization is arguably the most important aspect of character writing. It’s never the quantity of dialogue, supports, or whatever. It’s always the quality of those things which I feel SoV sorely lacks in. 

My words on Haar litterally tie into 3 of the points you made in this, did you even read that part? I did make note that the Leif comparison is not fair, but about gimmiks I tied stuff into it. As for everything else you said I have made arguments and linked base convos arguing that it is quality. And again my point is that while there may been some quality in someone like Inigo, you have lots of quantity to get through which can muddy a character, something I brought up in the Cain section which I am curious to see if you even read as well.

Character interaction can be a bad thing, there are supports in all 3 of the 3ds games that do more harm then good for a character and you know it. Also that list of SOV characters seems like you either just don't remember or are choosing to ignore everything but supports for their characterization because the only one I agree with is Faye. Again I invite you to read their base convos as each one is barely a paragraph instead of dying on the small hill that they are all one note. I say this because you are seeming to say that because you know more about Inigo than Gray he is just a one note character.

Again if these characters don't fit your fancy there is nothing wrong with that, but I am only trying to get you to see the other side of it. There are down sides and upsides to the writing of SOV and Awakafates styled characters. Calling them one note seems either ignorant or disingenuous, and this is far from the first time I've seen you with an anti SOV bias. The thing is I have been guilty for having a bias against the other two 3dsfe games and only recently have I come to the conclusion that they aren't inherently badly written, there are qualities to it that the other games don't match, and vice versa. Again I could ask the entire community which game has better written characters between SOV and Awakening, and there would be a pretty big divide and picking neither of those 2 are wrong answers.

[Ottservia]

2 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

Character interaction can be a bad thing, there are supports in all 3 of the 3ds games that do more harm then good for a character and you know it.

Name one instance where more character interaction ended up being a bad thing in the end because as I see it more interaction is always a good thing. Why? Because more interaction means more opportunities to flesh out the character. Personally, I would rather dig through dozens of repetitive supports to find that one good one rather than have only two that are terrible. Because the other supports don’t take away that one gem is they only add to it. It’s like world building. More of it is never a bad thing. More opportunities for characterization is always a good thing because more characterization means more depth is added to the character it is as simple as that. 
 

 

2 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

Also that list of SOV characters seems like you either just don't remember or are choosing to ignore everything but supports for their characterization because the only one I agree with is Faye. Again I invite you to read their base convos as each one is barely a paragraph instead of dying on the small hill that they are all one note. I say this because you are seeming to say that because you know more about Inigo than Gray he is just a one note character.

Of the characters I listed, I would argue Faye is the best written actually because she actually has a personality trait unlike the others I listed. Sure it literally just amounts to “I love Alm” but it’s something. Also okay I’ll play that game. Let’s look at Silque’s base conversations as an example. 
 

Spoiler

Conversation 1

Silque: It was my mother’s idea for me to become a cleric. She was a cleric as well. As for my father, I fear I never met him. When I was little, my mother and I went on a long pilgrimage. So you see, I’m quite used to grueling marches such as this. I can look at the sky and read the weather. I know which plants are edible. So if you find yourself wanting for advice, simply say the word.

Conversation 2

Silque: …You’d like to know more about Novis? Oh, it’s a peaceful little isle. When I left, the turmoil in mainland Zofia had not yet reached it. But the pirate scourge? Well, that was another matter entirely. They stole food sent from the mainland until we had naught to eat but fish. I’m not complaining—fish is lovely. Another gift from the Mother. But too much of a good thing can grow just a wee bit tiresome… Some of us began to wonder if we might start growing scales. Hee hee.

Conversation 3

Silque: You may recall me mentioning the pilgrimage my mother and I went on. Well, as it turns out, the pilgrimage was in Rigel. This is because my Mother was a cleric of the Duma Faithful. It was only later that she crossed to Zofia and left me with the priory. It was sudden, and I never learned why. She simply vanished from my life. But another mother rescued me when I was at my lowest—the Mother Mila. Now I will spend my life repaying that debt however I can. I will bring the Mother’s wisdom to the meek and lonely and save them in turn.

Reading all three of these convos tell me what do we learn anout Silque? What does this tell us about Silque’s character and how those things connect with previously established characterization. All we know about Silque by this point in the game is that she’s a devoted follower of Mila. In these base convos we learn that her mother was once a member of the duma faithful. She crossed into Zofia and abandoned Silque at a priory. She was taken in by the church and devotes herself to Mila to repay the kindness the church showed her. These convos give us context as to why Silque is the way she is and that’s all well and good. It gives her some depth at least more than her one support conversation does which was none. 
 

Taking those base conversations, her supports, memory prisms, and story dialogue into account what can you say about Silque’s character? She was an orphan girl taken in by the church of Mila and devotes herself to the earth mother as a token of gratitude. That is it. That’s all her character is. Now let’s look at Severa. Taking into account all of Severa’s supports, base convos, story-dialogue, etc. in awakening alone what can I say about Severa’s character? Well pretty much all of this

https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/88105-the-girl-who-chooses-to-roll-again-one-more-time-a-severa-character-analysis/&tab=comments#comment-5466639

and I didn’t even cover all of her supports in that little essay just the important ones and that’s not even getting into all the dlc conversations which only add to what’s already there. Do you see my point? And Severa isn’t an exception either. A lot of awakening characters are like this. The same goes for Silque. She’s not the exception. Almost every SoV character is like that. Yeah I have a bias against SoV but that’s not for lack of trying. Like I said, I’ve played through SoV two and a half times and every single time I go in wanting to be proven wrong about it but every time I wind up with the same conclusions as I did before.

[Samz707]

21 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Name one instance where more character interaction ended up being a bad thing in the end because as I see it more interaction is always a good thing. Why? Because more interaction means more opportunities to flesh out the character. Personally, I would rather dig through dozens of repetitive supports to find that one good one rather than have only two that are terrible. Because the other supports don’t take away that one gem is they only add to it. It’s like world building. More of it is never a bad thing. More opportunities for characterization is always a good thing because more characterization means more depth is added to the character it is as simple as that. 
 

 

Of the characters I listed, I would argue Faye is the best written actually because she actually has a personality trait unlike the others I listed. Sure it literally just amounts to “I love Alm” but it’s something. Also okay I’ll play that game. Let’s look at Silque’s base conversations as an example. 

Tharja being flat-out worse than Sonia and all around human-scum in some of her supports (and yourself say she's inconsistent) and apparently all it takes Chrom to go from friends to lover with a Woman is Pie (Sumia) or seeing them naked a few times (Robin) or practically every single Awakening S-rank I've seen that feel like they come out of nowhere.

These moments very much did not exactly make me want to see more Awakening supports and massively handicap any attempt to make me actually like these characters when they seem like horrible people (Tharja or Henry from what I hear) or extremely shallow individuals who simply want to bang anything of the opposite gender out of sheer horniness after talking to them 3 times despite not really even particularly good friends. (Too many S-ranks than I care to count.)

Not to mention, Characters can end up basically acting like their supports didn't even happen (Such as Tharja and I hear it's a major problem for other characters) since their character needs to be reset for other supports, which also makes it hard to actually care about anyone when none of this dialogue blatantly matters.

Tharja could get a support where it turns out she donates to Orphans, loves cats, is a big fan of the Opera and loves Bear Meat, that's not going to erase the fact I know this is a terrible human being who abuses her family, is willing to magically enslave a man to be her husband and is implied to do something to Robin without their consent while Robin is unconscious and in general has been such a horrible human being in the supports I saw that no amount of claiming otherwise in other supports. (or retconning her as I hear Warriors does to be less unlikable) is going to make me forget about that, she is and will always be an utterly despicable person to me and not in a "Love to hate" way like Narcian.

 

I don't see how you can claim Faye is a character yet no one else in Echoes has one, they have a personality, it's just drilled into you less, Alm's heroic, Grey's a joke-y person, Kliff is stand-off-ish and Lukas is an not-usually-very emotional person, arguably to the point of seemingly being a high-functioning socipath and is definitely willing to do dirty stuff to win as shown in the DLC, Faye's is repeated more but that's it. (and even then it's usually seen as a negative due to how one-note she ultimately ends up being, especially in the original Japanese where she is actually even more one-note and more over the top.)

Yeah Silque's a simple character, so? She's not a poorly written obnoxious mess, give me a simple character over one that's poorly written to the point where I start wondering if video-game writing standards are actually getting worse nowadays. 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Samz707

[Etrurian emperor]

I think ''less is more'' could be a good way to sum up Echoes characters. Meanwhile with Fates and Awakening the cast seems a bit bloated but bloated in the sense that they really expand, and expand, and expand on singular traits rather than being bloated due to trying too many things. 

Its a quality vs quantity approach. The Echoes cast gives you less to work with but what you get is more nuanced. To Awakening's credit sometimes quantity can be a quality of its own. The Awakening cast is simple and repetitive but they're also mostly endearing.

[Ottservia]

11 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Its a quality vs quantity approach. The Echoes cast gives you less to work with but what you get is more nuanced. To Awakening's credit sometimes quantity can be a quality of its own. The Awakening cast is simple and repetitive but they're also mostly endearing.

Oh yeah because Kliff telling Tobin to fuck off for 3 supports in a row is totally a nuanced and insightful support conversation compared to Severa’s father support where she learns that she doesn’t need to be perfect in order for people to care about her for who she is rather than who she isn’t . Yeah totally Kliff and Tobin’s supports are really 10/10 writing right there.

[Samz707]

2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Oh yeah because Kliff telling Tobin to fuck off for 3 supports in a row is totally a nuanced and insightful support conversation compared to Severa’s father support where she learns that she doesn’t need to be perfect in order for people to care about her for who she is rather than who she isn’t . Yeah totally Kliff and Tobin’s supports are really 10/10 writing right there.

More insightful that Chrom X FemRobin/Sumia.

 

 

[JimmyBeans]

20 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Name one instance where more character interaction ended up being a bad thing in the end

For specific examples I would say characters with huge anti-social gimmicks (see LonQu, Beruka, Bernadetta, etc). Mainly because the growth and progression you see through their supports can be very good but then you unlock another C support/hear their lines in the story and it's like they're back to square one and all that progression has meant nothing. Which is why a good written character like Jill get's the benefit of having that base convo with Ike where she makes a change for the better and starts to put behind the racist ways of her upbringing. Also I wanna bring up again that is seems like we are still laser focusing on supports when, like I mentioned before, we can get characterization from story scenes and base convos, something that SOV has over awakafates by a mile, and honestly most of the series because it lets so many side characters actually say things that are relevant.

Since you played my game I did look at your link, and yes there is quite a lot and going along with what @Etrurian emperor just said, there are qualities and I would never argue that there is no quality in those supports but there are upsides and downsides to each one. Severa has quite a lot but how much of that actually matters to her being apart of the games story? How much of that matters to why she is fighting? Severa has those reasons and they are explained, but you could cut a lot of that out and I would argue that as a character she could possibly stand out more as a good character, because the focus would be on those traits that are important. It is nice that we get to see all those moments of characterization but you see where I'm coming from right? SOV characters, like Silque, are that with the fluff cut away and their traits worth praising stand out to me and many others more.

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Oh yeah because Kliff telling Tobin to fuck off for 3 supports in a row is totally a nuanced and insightful support conversation compared to Severa’s father support where she learns that she doesn’t need to be perfect in order for people to care about her for who she is rather than who she isn’t . Yeah totally Kliff and Tobin’s supports are really 10/10 writing right there.

Alright I'm gonna stop you right there. You just compared a goofy non relevant part of SOV to an actually important support in Severa's catalog, how is that fair in the slightest? You know there are supports in Awakening that are just as bad, if not worse than the Tobin/Kliff one in Awakening, let's not throw out the passive-aggressive remarks. 

[Etrurian emperor]

4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Oh yeah because Kliff telling Tobin to fuck off for 3 supports in a row is totally a nuanced and insightful support conversation compared to Severa’s father support where she learns that she doesn’t need to be perfect in order for people to care about her for who she is rather than who she isn’t . Yeah totally Kliff and Tobin’s supports are really 10/10 writing right there.

No but Tobin being frustrated about his inferiority to Alm but still being fiercely loyal to him is. Or Tobin being an understanding big bro about Kliff going through a phase despite otherwise being depicted as somewhat of a fool. Its not Kliff who gets the nuance through that support, its Tobin. 

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

More insightful that Chrom X FemRobin/Sumia.

 

 

Btw in the original jp version it was bento boxes not pies which is a pretty prevalent trope in a lot of romance anime. It’s really cute honestly.

[Samz707]

12 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Btw in the original jp version it was bento boxes not pies which is a pretty prevalent trope in a lot of romance anime. It’s really cute honestly.

Makes it even more generic and it's still incredibly dumb for  food to be the thing to make Chrom's cro-magnon brain want to marry someone.

It's only slightly better than Female Robin's supports. (Which were unfortunately my first supports ever.)

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Samz707

[JimmyBeans]

15 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

No but Tobin being frustrated about his inferiority to Alm but still being fiercely loyal to him is. Or Tobin being an understanding big bro about Kliff going through a phase despite otherwise being depicted as somewhat of a fool. Its not Kliff who gets the nuance through that support, its Tobin. 

It's something that I see in real life honestly and it's one of the reasons I actually like that support now that I'm thinking about it. Wanting to be there for someone and not knowing how to do it the right away is something I have seen in life all the time. I take back what I said negatively about that support.

[Acacia Sgt]

28 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Makes it even more generic and it's still incredibly dumb for  food to be the thing to make Chrom's cro-magnon brain want to marry someone.

To be fair, it's not so much the food, but rather the time they spend together, enjoying each other's company. Yes, it's a bit of a cliché that food is the thing bringing them together at first, but ultimately it's the catalyst, not the trigger, for the romance to sprout.

[Ottservia]

22 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

Alright I'm gonna stop you right there. You just compared a goofy non relevant part of SOV to an actually important support in Severa's catalog, how is that fair in the slightest? You know there are supports in Awakening that are just as bad, if not worse than the Tobin/Kliff one in Awakening, let's not throw out the passive-aggressive remarks. 

I mean of all the supports I’ve read in awakening I have to find one as shallow as that personally. There are shallow supports in awakening but not nearly that shallow.

 

24 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

For specific examples I would say characters with huge anti-social gimmicks (see LonQu, Beruka, Bernadetta, etc). Mainly because the growth and progression you see through their supports can be very good but then you unlock another C support/hear their lines in the story and it's like they're back to square one and all that progression has meant nothing. Which is why a good written character like Jill get's the benefit of having that base convo with Ike where she makes a change for the better and starts to put behind the racist ways of her upbringing. Also I wanna bring up again that is seems like we are still laser focusing on supports when, like I mentioned before, we can get characterization from story scenes and base convos, something that SOV has over awakafates by a mile, and honestly most of the series because it lets so many side characters actually say things that are relevant.

I feel like this arguing against a point I never made. That’s not really a problem of the quantity of supports as it is just a problem with the support system in general. Cause a character can have only two supports and still have this be a problem so it has nothing to do with quantity. Also I never said base conversations were a bad thing. I’m actually in agreement that they should come back because of how useful they can be when combined with supports.

 

28 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

How much of that matters to why she is fighting?

Because she’s fighting to prove herself and save her world. I think that’s pretty obvious. Also if you play that game how many lines of dialogue does Silque have in the main story that answer this question? Exactly now you get my point. 

 

30 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

I would argue that as a character she could possibly stand out more as a good character, because the focus would be on those traits that are important. It is nice that we get to see all those moments of characterization but you see where I'm coming from right? SOV characters, like Silque, are that with the fluff cut away and their traits worth praising stand out to me and many others more.

I feel like this arguing against a point I never made. Here’s the thing I can only say all that shit about Severa BECAUSE it is there. If you cut all that shit out then you rob her character of the nuance that provided. It’s not fluff if it adds something to the character. 
 

also another question. How does Silque have anywhere near that amount of nuance and characterization? Silque only has the one thing going for her in that she’s devoted to Mila because she was abandoned by her mother and taken by the church. THAT IS IT! Severa has an inferiority complex, trust issues, an unhealthy work ethic, abandonment issues, survivor’s guilt, anxiety, etc. she’s abrasive but also has a soft side that she only shows to the people she truly cares about and trusts. And I am only summarizing here That’s what nuance is. Silque doesn’t have that so don’t tell me her character just “cuts out the fluff” because there’s no fluff to cut out. What is even your point here? If you can write an analysis on Silque’s character that is as deep and intricate as mine on Severa then I will concede the point. Because Severa isn’t the exception. I could do the same for Inigo, Lucina, Cordelia, Virion, Tharja, and many many more. If I tried to the same for most SoV characters it would only be a paragraph at most. I tried to analyze Silque’s character with the same lens I used to analyze Severa’s character and the difference in the amount I could write for each of them is staggering and that’s my point.

44 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

Alright I'm gonna stop you right there. You just compared a goofy non relevant part of SOV to an actually important support in Severa's catalog, how is that fair in the slightest? You know there are supports in Awakening that are just as bad, if not worse than the Tobin/Kliff one in Awakening, let's not throw out the passive-aggressive remarks. 

If you wanna better comparison then GrayxClair and InigoxSevera are similar enough. InigoxSevera is just the better support though

[Acacia Sgt]

Well, she likely isn't as nuanced as Severa, but to say Silque only has her devotion to Mila as the only thing characterizing her is a bit off the mark.

I'm not one for long essays, so I'll be brief from a surface examination; but from her narration of the pilgrimage she undertook with her mother we can take she grew up to be quite resourceful and field-knowledgable. Which can explain why she was tasked to take the Turnwheel to Mycen in the first place, she was considered the one who could best brave the path between Novis and Ram. Her attempts to strike friendship with Faye also show she likes and likely lounges for companionship. After all, she is part of a group, that of the Novis Priory clergy, but now she's in a new group full of strangers. So she wants to strike at least one friendship in this new group as well. Not to mention, as she explains her reasons to Faye, she is also something of a gossiper, or likes to indulge in "girl talk" in general. Which makes sense when you consider that back at Novis there is likely a much higher number of women than men (just to give an example, Celica's group of friends is just girls and the one guy), so Silque prefers to be in the company of other women. Hence why she chose Faye to begin with. She's also not one to give up, hence why after an initial bad impression of Faye, she still attempted a second time, then was forgiving when Faye now approached her in apology. And she did made it almost to Ram in spite of everything. She also is quite easily acceptant to Jesse's character in their Memory Scene, so something can also be examined out of that.

So yeah, just some skimming over Silque's character...

Edited May 29, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Use the Falchion]

1 hour ago, JimmyBeans said:

anti-social gimmicks (see LonQu, Beruka, Bernadetta, etc). Mainly because the growth and progression you see through their supports can be very good but then you unlock another C support/hear their lines in the story and it's like they're back to square one and all that progression has meant nothing.

I really can't defend Beruka, as her issues are weird at best, but in the defense of Lon'qu and Bernadetta (and probably Tharja), it's not so much as "they're getting over their issues as a whole," but rather "they're acclimating to this individual they're talking to now." Heck, Lon'qu explicitly states that he will never get over his trauma and phobia. But through the supports, he gets used to individuals, and that's progress. Bernadetta is an admittedly more annoying version of the same thing. She's so stuck in her head with every single person, she has to start over each time she talks to someone. If I have a fear of dogs, me getting to know one specific dog isn't going to ease my fear of all dogs. My sister struggles with a phobia of birds. If I were to get a pet parrot or owl, she may, in time, come around to not fearing that specific pet, but she's still going to freak out when confronted with pigeons. (Admittedly, your issues with them not truly conquering their issues is my gripe with most of Bernadetta's paired endings, but not one with her supports.) 

 

1 hour ago, JimmyBeans said:

Severa has quite a lot but how much of that actually matters to her being apart of the games story?

But why does it matter if it's apart of the main story or not? She, like other surviving children, are going back in time to save a future. I don't see how her characterization needs to relate to this. It's also why supports being a good form of storytelling is a false dichotomy - no one ever said they were supposed to be good at storytelling. 

 

1 hour ago, JimmyBeans said:

SOV characters, like Silque, are that with the fluff cut away and their traits worth praising stand out to me and many others more.

I really wish I could feel this way, I really, really do. But to me it's just the reverse. Silque, as much as I love her design, doesn't stand out. Gray, despite being my favorite character in the game and having some of the best lines, doesn't stand out. Kliff doesn't stand out. Tobin doesn't stand out. Do you want to know those who do stand out? Those with interesting characterization - Faye stands out (if only for how terrible her characterization and ending is). Clive and Mathilda stand out because of how horny Clive is for Mathilda's bloodthirstiness. Berkut stands out for his elitist attitude and tragic story. Boey and Mae stand out because of their phenomenal voice acting and fun dynamic. Saber because of his introduction. But many other characters don't stand out because they don't do anything special, or have much to do. I don't blame how involved they are in the game for this, but rather how these characters connect with other characters. A character who doesn't do much still may stand out because of their interactions with everyone else. Echoes' support philosophy robs characters of that chance. 

 

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think ''less is more'' could be a good way to sum up Echoes characters. Meanwhile with Fates and Awakening the cast seems a bit bloated but bloated in the sense that they really expand, and expand, and expand on singular traits rather than being bloated due to trying too many things. 

Its a quality vs quantity approach. The Echoes cast gives you less to work with but what you get is more nuanced. To Awakening's credit sometimes quantity can be a quality of its own. The Awakening cast is simple and repetitive but they're also mostly endearing.

I'm not sure I'd find more of Echoes' work nuanced as a whole, but I see your points. 

 

2 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Tharja being flat-out worse than Sonia and all around human-scum in some of her supports (and yourself say she's inconsistent)

Sonia is still so much worse than Tharja, it's really not a comparison. Are Tharja and Sonia both abusive towards a child? Absolutely. Are they both manipulative? Absolutely. But that easily where the similarities end. Sonia abuses Nino and enjoys it. Nino disgusts her. Tharja actually loves Noire enough to not teach her hexes and dark magic, despite the girl having the natural capabilities for it. Sonia flaunts her body and appeal in order to manipulate people, and thinks lesser of virtually everyone but Nergal. Tharja hides behind her cloak and is disturbed at the idea of being a fan-service girl in-game; and while she doesn't think highly of most people around her, she is capable of having friends (See her supports with Nowi and Stahl, and DLC dialogue with Olivia.) Sonia manipulates people for her own goals, while Tharja manipulates people for the betterment of others, and never takes advantage of situations that would be advantageous for her in major ways - in her supports with Robin, when she could abuse or otherwise assault Robin when s/he's collapsed from the fever, all Tharja does is take care of the tactician and watch over them. Whereas Sonia wouldn't let Nino even touch her, Tharja allows (and indeed forces) Noire to join her in the pursuit of darker magic. 

If you want to compare Tharja to any character relevant to this conversation, it's Faye, and Faye actually has four comparative units in terms of characterization: Cordelia, Tharja, Flora, and Camilla. And each of those four has so much more depth than Faye does. (Although to be fair, Faye isn't the best example of a deep character for Echoes IMO.)

EDIT 2: Flora is also a weird character, since her actual supports don't give much in the way of characterization in terms of complexity. They do a pretty good job on spotlighting Flora's relationship to her liege and her sister, but that's really it. It's dialogue, implication, and ending cards for the rest.

 

32 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

So she wants to strike at least one friendship in this new group as well. Not to mention, as she explains her reasons to Faye, she is also something of a gossiper, or likes to indulge in "girl talk" in general. Which makes sense when you consider that back at Novis there is likely a much higher number of women than men (just to give an example, Celica's group of friends is just girls and the one guy), so Silque prefers to be in the company of other women. Hence why she chose Faye to begin with. She also is quite easily acceptant to Jesse's character in their Memory Scene, so something can also be examined out of that.

As one who doesn't really think much of Silque, thanks for the insight and info! This really helpful, and I think I enjoy her character just a bit more now. But wouldn't these points also be helped by a few more supports? I know many people don't like Priam, but the difference between his supports with Robin, depending on the gender, would have been a great example to follow. For Priam, he's super stoic around F!Robin, yet he's bombastic and very talkative around M!Robin, who the warrior wants to chronicle his life. (These differences are there for many Robin-associated supports, but the highlights to me are: Chrom, Lon'qu, Anna, Aversa, and Walhart.) 

Likewise, wouldn't it have been helpful if Silque actually had a support or two that helped expound on those aspects of hers? Maybe one with guy trying to show her around the army and assist her in the new lifestyle, but she's all shy (C-Support), so the guy always makes sure to find a maiden in each new stop to help her around (B-Support). Later on, Silque notices this, and thanks the guy in question for his respect and thoughtfulness (A-Support). Or...you know...give her an actual girl to have some gossip/girl-talk with, when a few more join Alm's party. 

EDIT: Another support idea for Silque could have been between her and Tatiana. That would have been fascinating! Do they talk about faith, or maybe Silque's mother, or maybe girl talk? Or all three? There are a lot of ways that support could have been handled...had it existed. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[Ottservia]

28 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, she likely isn't as nuanced as Severa, but to say Silque only has her devotion to Mila as the only thing characterizing her is a bit off the mark.

I'm not one for long essays, so I'll be brief from a surface examination; but from her narration of the pilgrimage she undertook with her mother we can take she grew up to be quite resourceful and field-knowledgable. Which can explain why she was tasked to take the Turnwheel to Mycen in the first place, she was considered the one who could best brave the path between Novis and Ram. Her attempts to strike friendship with Faye also show she likes and likely lounges for companionship. After all, she is part of a group, that of the Novis Priory clergy, but now she's in a new group full of strangers. So she wants to strike at least one friendship in this new group as well. Not to mention, as she explains her reasons to Faye, she is also something of a gossiper, or likes to indulge in "girl talk" in general. Which makes sense when you consider that back at Novis there is likely a much higher number of women than men (just to give an example, Celica's group of friends is just girls and the one guy), so Silque prefers to be in the company of other women. Hence why she chose Faye to begin with. She also is quite easily acceptant to Jesse's character in their Memory Scene, so something can also be examined out of that.

So yeah, just some skimming over Silque's character...

I mean that’s fair but like Falchion just said none of those aspects are ever expanded on anywhere in the game. A support where she helps Clair gather fire wood or medicinal plants would’ve done wonders for fleshing her out a lot more

[Acacia Sgt]

True. So ultimately, the problem isn't that she has little to no character, but rather, that it's not allowed to shine much.

11 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Likewise, wouldn't it have been helpful if Silque actually had a support or two that helped expound on those aspects of hers? Maybe one with guy trying to show her around the army and assist her in the new lifestyle, but she's all shy (C-Support), so the guy always makes sure to find a maiden in each new stop to help her around (B-Support). Later on, Silque notices this, and thanks the guy in question for his respect and thoughtfulness (A-Support). Or...you know...give her an actual girl to have some gossip/girl-talk with, when a few more join Alm's party. 

EDIT: Another support idea for Silque could have been between her and Tatiana. That would have been fascinating! Do they talk about faith, or maybe Silque's mother, or maybe girl talk? Or all three? There are a lot of ways that support could have been handled...had it existed. 

True. The game had so few supports. I'd say a big problem was that they wanted the game to be practically all voiced. That ramps up production costs so no wonder there weren't as many supports present.

I could totally see a SilquexTatiana support chain going through all those, heh. Speaking on Tatiana, I'm reminded how I've mentioned elsewhere that she could've used a support chain with Mathilda. And for humor's sake, it'd be both fighting over who is better, Clive or Zeke. lol

[Use the Falchion]

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

True. So ultimately, the problem isn't that she has little to no character, but rather, that it's not allowed to shine much.

True. The game had so few supports. I'd say a big problem was that they wanted the game to be practically all voiced. That ramps up production costs so no wonder there weren't as many supports present.

I could totally see a SilquexTatiana support chain going through all those, heh. Speaking on Tatiana, I'm reminded how I've mentioned elsewhere that she could've used a support chain with Mathilda. And for humor's sake, it'd be both fighting over who is better, Clive or Zeke. lol

That's a fair concern, and definitely one to be taken into account. But I think the quality and/or character choices of the supports exist outside of that limitation...for the most part. Yes, resources will limit who supports whom, but that doesn't mean writers and creators needed to pick the ones they did either. And yes, that's true for every game, but when resource allocation becomes a big part, you want to pick the best and/or most interesting, not...what we got for Silque. 

Oh a Tatiana/Mathilda support chain would have been hilarious! 

[Ottservia]

6 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

That's a fair concern, and definitely one to be taken into account. But I think the quality and/or character choices of the supports exist outside of that limitation...for the most part. Yes, resources will limit who supports whom, but that doesn't mean writers and creators needed to pick the ones they did either. And yes, that's true for every game, but when resource allocation becomes a big part, you want to pick the best and/or most interesting, not...what we got for Silque. 

Oh a Tatiana/Mathilda support chain would have been hilarious! 

This is why I say it’s never a quantity issue in regards to supports and character interaction(though more of it certainly never hurts) it’s almost exclusively a quality issue. It doesn’t matter how many supports a character has if they’re all garbage then what does that say about the character? I only really need to point to Kellam as an example of that.

[Acacia Sgt]

9 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

That's a fair concern, and definitely one to be taken into account. But I think the quality and/or character choices of the supports exist outside of that limitation...for the most part. Yes, resources will limit who supports whom, but that doesn't mean writers and creators needed to pick the ones they did either. And yes, that's true for every game, but when resource allocation becomes a big part, you want to pick the best and/or most interesting, not...what we got for Silque. 

Oh a Tatiana/Mathilda support chain would have been hilarious! 

Oh yes, even when you have little to use, you can still make the best out of it, so you should.

That said, personally, I don't see a problem with the Silque-Faye support. I mentioned about Silque already, but for Faye it shows that she can become self-conscious about her Alm obsession. She realizes how it drove off someone who wanted to be her friend, and it saddens her, and thus wants to rectify that. Showing how she's not above wanting to make a new friend even if it means... not being with Alm.

So yeah, both could've used more supports than what they got, but what is there isn't that bad. Just, not enough.