Why are supports still considered to be a good form of storytelling in FE?

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Oh yes, even when you have little to use, you can still make the best out of it, so you should.

That said, personally, I don't see a problem with the Silque-Faye support. I mentioned about Silque already, but for Faye it shows that she can become self-conscious about her Alm obsession. She realizes how it drove off someone who wanted to be her friend, and it saddens her, and thus wants to rectify that. Showing how she's not above wanting to make a new friend even if it means... not being with Alm.

So yeah, both could've used more supports than what they got, but what is there isn't that bad. Just, not enough.

I mean it wouldn’t be bad if Faye was a more 3 dimensional character if you ask me as it stands it only really serves to hammer home how one dimensional she is self-aware or not

[Seazas]

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

No but Tobin being frustrated about his inferiority to Alm but still being fiercely loyal to him is. Or Tobin being an understanding big bro about Kliff going through a phase despite otherwise being depicted as somewhat of a fool. Its not Kliff who gets the nuance through that support, its Tobin. 

Also, we see Kliff admitting that people drive him crazy and he felt bad for trying to take his building frustrations out on Tobin. Which adds to his character, with Kliff genuinely being surprised that Tobin would be fine with that. It's the only instance we see Kliff paling around and joking with someone too, showing that he's not just gloom or whatever: "They are much better at fighting than you." "Hey!" "Heh. Sorry, couldn't resist."

[Samz707]

7 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

 

 

Sonia is still so much worse than Tharja, it's really not a comparison. Are Tharja and Sonia both abusive towards a child? Absolutely. Are they both manipulative? Absolutely. But that easily where the similarities end. Sonia abuses Nino and enjoys it. Nino disgusts her. Tharja actually loves Noire enough to not teach her hexes and dark magic, despite the girl having the natural capabilities for it. Sonia flaunts her body and appeal in order to manipulate people, and thinks lesser of virtually everyone but Nergal. Tharja hides behind her cloak and is disturbed at the idea of being a fan-service girl in-game; and while she doesn't think highly of most people around her, she is capable of having friends (See her supports with Nowi and Stahl, and DLC dialogue with Olivia.) Sonia manipulates people for her own goals, while Tharja manipulates people for the betterment of others, and never takes advantage of situations that would be advantageous for her in major ways - in her supports with Robin, when she could abuse or otherwise assault Robin when s/he's collapsed from the fever, all Tharja does is take care of the tactician and watch over them. Whereas Sonia wouldn't let Nino even touch her, Tharja allows (and indeed forces) Noire to join her in the pursuit of darker magic. 

If you want to compare Tharja to any character relevant to this conversation, it's Faye, and Faye actually has four comparative units in terms of characterization: Cordelia, Tharja, Flora, and Camilla. And each of those four has so much more depth than Faye does. (Although to be fair, Faye isn't the best example of a deep character for Echoes IMO.)

 

Nino didn't mentally break and have a split-personality, Noire did. 

Robin, Miriel, Cordelia, and Morgan can just pick-up Dark Magic and according to the Serene's forest page, their children will also be able to be Dark Mages, is there any evidence not from the abuser that Dark Magic is so evil if so many characters can just pick it up and perfectly fine? it just makes it seem frankly like Tharja wanted Noire to stay unable to resist her Hexes if I'm blunt, that seriously strikes more more as the abuser wanting to not have their power dynamic upset if I'm honest, this isn't Elibe where people can lose themselves with Dark Magic if they go too deep into it.

Tharja literally tricks Donnel into accepting a cursed ring so she can marry him (Call me crazy but rape isn't very much for the betterment of others.), that's very manipulative and I honestly am surprised that Tharja doesn't hex anyone competition for Robin's love other than because the writers didn't' want to bother with how much dialogue and such would be required for that because I can 100 percent see her doing stuff like that and it's merely not wanting to disrupt the Robin Power-Fantasy that it doesn't happen.

And how do we know Tharja didn't molest Robin as they slept? She does her evil smile then it fades to black and the support is over as that's their A Support.

 

 

Faye doesn't abuse her children (Well she does vanish at times, but that's nowhere near intentionally hexing them.) nor is she willing to sexually assault Alm (Meanwhile Tharja is heavily implied to trick a cursed Ring onto Donnel and I can fully believe she molsted sleeping Robin.), she also actually has an in-universe reason to be obsessed with Alm (Him saving her life from a near-death experience with Slayde as a kid, turning a small childhood crush into obsession.), while Tharja at best has vague speculation about Grima and Camilla from what I hear has it be that she wants to be a Mother to her siblings, except she's blatantly more sexual with Corrin so that's more of an excuse by the writers.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

To be fair, it's not so much the food, but rather the time they spend together, enjoying each other's company. Yes, it's a bit of a cliché that food is the thing bringing them together at first, but ultimately it's the catalyst, not the trigger, for the romance to sprout.

Chrom still mentions the pies near the end of their S-Support, which kinda makes it seem like the pies actually were a significant reason for him marrying her.

[Use the Falchion]

3 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Nino didn't mentally break and have a split-personality, Noire did. 

Robin, Miriel, Cordelia, and Morgan can just pick-up Dark Magic and according to the Serene's forest page, their children will also be able to be Dark Mages, is there any evidence not from the abuser that Dark Magic is so evil if so many characters can just pick it up and perfectly fine? it just makes it seem frankly like Tharja wanted Noire to stay unable to resist her Hexes if I'm blunt, that seriously strikes more more as the abuser wanting to not have their power dynamic upset if I'm honest, this isn't Elibe where people can lose themselves with Dark Magic if they go too deep into it.

Tharja literally tricks Donnel into accepting a cursed ring so she can marry him (Call me crazy but rape isn't very much for the betterment of others.), that's very manipulative and I honestly am surprised that Tharja doesn't hex anyone competition for Robin's love other than because the writers didn't' want to bother with how much dialogue and such would be required for that because I can 100 percent see her doing stuff like that and it's merely not wanting to disrupt the Robin Power-Fantasy that it doesn't happen.

And how do we know Tharja didn't molest Robin as they slept? She does her evil smile then it fades to black and the support is over as that's their A Support.

 

 

Faye doesn't abuse her children (Well she does vanish at times, but that's nowhere near intentionally hexing them.) nor is she willing to sexually assault Alm (Meanwhile Tharja is heavily implied to trick a cursed Ring onto Donnel and I can fully believe she molsted sleeping Robin.), she also actually has an in-universe reason to be obsessed with Alm (Him saving her life from a near-death experience with Slayde as a kid, turning a small childhood crush into obsession.), while Tharja at best has vague speculation about Grima and Camilla from what I hear has it be that she wants to be a Mother to her siblings, except she's blatantly more sexual with Corrin so that's more of an excuse by the writers.

 

 

 

 

Chrom still mentions the pies near the end of their S-Support, which kinda makes it seem like the pies actually were a significant reason for him marrying her.

Nino can't read and has no friends her age. Noire can read and has friends. Nino was left out on her own defenses. Noire was at least given an amulet to help cure her fears at the LITERAL end of the world. Nino's "mother" secretly and then openly tried to kill her. Tharja's mother, while cruel, at least gave her something in order to help her survive. Oh, not to mention that Tharja's love for Noire spans literal universes and timelines. (See the A-Support between Tharja and Noire below, as well as the Future Past 1 DLC conversation.)

 

Look, I'm not going to convince you to like Awakening, nor am I going to needless prolong this derailing, but I am going to correct some misconceptions. 

 

About Donnel - Tharja doesn't do anything you claim she does. What she does do is make the rings using magic, and offer them to Donnel as a sign of marriage and love. She neither compels nor forces the rings onto Donnel. Tharja is completely upfront about her desires in the relationship, and Donnel is free to walk away at any point. Could the rings be curse? Absolutely, but there's no implication to suspect that the rings do anything special either. Tharja cures fevers and colds with hexes and curses and spells, it makes sense that she'd use them to make rings too.

Quote

Donnel: Heya, Tharja. I went'n collected all them things ya wanted.

Tharja: ...Ah, good. Then I have everything I need for my next spell. Just stand still please...

(Scene transition)

Tharja: Whew... It is done...

Donnel: Erm, Tharja. Is it all right if I ask ya a lil' question?

Tharja: That depends.

Donnel: What was that spell you just cast? Usually ya tell me what yer fixin' to do, but not today.

Tharja: I was making this.

Donnel: Dancin' donkeys! That there's a fine ring!

Tharja: ...It's for you.

Donnel: Fer me?!

Tharja: I made another one just like it for myself.

Donnel: Well shucks, this is startin' to sound like yer fixin' to get us hitched!

Tharja: Well, yes, as far as society at large is concerned, we would be wed. However, in practice, I want you to be more like my...personal servant. I consulted a few books; this seemed the easiest way to secure your cooperation.

Donnel: Books? Yer dark-magic tomes talk about weddin's?

Tharja: Well, what became weddings, yes... You'd be surprised how many social rituals have come out of the dark arts. In this case, an exchange of rings forging an unbreakable bond. It symbolizes a solemn pact that two people will stay together until death.

Donnel: Gosh! Sounds like someone's in love with ol' Donny!

Tharja: That...would be another way to put it, yes. In any case, I would like your answer. Will you join with me?

Donnel: If you promise to love me all my life, then we got a deal! Collectin' bats and watchin' you cast hexes is excitin' as all get-out! I wouldn't mind doin' nothin' but fer the rest of my days!.

Tharja: Excellent! Then it's settled. Now put that ring on like a good boy... And become mine FOREVER! Eee hee hee...

See? No compulsion, no forcing, no brain-washing. Everything is consensual.

Does she laugh at the end, signally that the rings might be cursed? Yes. But she could also just be laughing at the fact that Donnel agreed to marrying her and she's giddy. That is her normal laugh after all...

 

About Tharja and Robin - Tharja openly admits several times she could - and in her mind, should - use hexes to keep people away from Robin. But she still doesn't, showing restraint. She shows that same restraint in her relationship with Robin. Yes, she had the knowledge and capabilities and time to assault Robin if she wanted to, but she doesn't want to. Because at the end of the day, Tharja wants Robin to see her as she sees Robin, not to be one taken by force, but to willingly choose the relationship. That doesn't mean Tharja's above bending herself to be what she thinks Robin wants, or to possessively stalking him/her (not unlike how people Facebook/Instagram/Social Media stalk their crushes when in limerence in the real world, or how people lie about what they like in order to appease their crush or S.O.). But she's also not going to force Robin into the relationship. 

 

In terms of Faye - Tharja is still so much better. Faye is a woman clearly pining over a man she cannot have, even in her single epilogue. Out of the fourteen epilogues Tharja can have, only three even mention Robin - one is her single ending, where she doesn't find love. The second is her paired ending with Robin, where she gets the man she's after. The third is her ending with Kellam, which is more of a joke ending in-line with his other endings. 

Faye leaves her family for reasons unknown to them, and she's clearly using them to get over Alm. Tharja gets over her Robin obsession with her new family, and still shows affection to them. (And in the one ending where Tharja does occasionally leave, it's stated that it's for weather and temperature-related reasons, not mysterious and family-worrying ones.)

Which leads to Noire - Noire didn't have a split personality break because of Tharja's abuse, it's because of an amulet that Tharja gave Noire in order to foster her bravery. Many parents will "check under the bed for monsters" or will give their children a stuffed animal that will "protect them from danger." Tharja did a similar thing, but with Dark Magic. Noire clearly understands it's purpose and is thankful for it as well.

See her dialogue with Noire during the girl's recruitment chapter:

Quote

Tharja: And that bizarre tailsman?

Noire: Your own handiwork! Wrought to steel the mewling heart of your coward daughter! In its strength did I find blessed escape from grief and solitude! Fear of death and killing, too, it drove from me, until I became an avatar of retribution! Only by clinging to it have I survived the crushing desolation of a ruinated future! BWAA HA HA HA HA!

Tharja: Oh, give me that.

Noire: Um, w-wait! I need that! Without it, I can't--

Tharja: Survive? You can and will. And not by becoming some avatar of retribution. Just be my daughter. Leave the retribution to me.

 

Or in Noire's A-Support with Tharja:

Quote

Noire: I've assembled the last of the implements for the rite, Mother. I'm finally going to learn to cast hexes. I'll make a useful assistant yet, just watch!

Tharja: ......

Noire: Er, Mother?

Tharja: ...I've changed my mind. There will be no rite tonight.

Noire: What? But...

Tharja: I won't be teaching you the dark arts. Now put those implements away.

Noire: But why? Wh-what did I do? Do I lack the talent? Am I in your way?

Tharja: You have a frightening amount of talent. Your innate magical potential is vast. Even that talisman I made turned you into an entirely different person! One couldn't hope for a greater vessel to shape into a curse slinger. ...And you could never be in my way.

Noire: Then why?

Tharja: ...I think I've come to understand the motives of my future self.

Noire: What?

Tharja: I don't want you dealing in hexes. The dark arts carry with them tremendous risks. My future self knew as much...

Noire: You think that she was worried for my safety? That...she loved me?

Tharja: Can't say. Not about her, at least. ...But I love you, if that helps.

Noire: Mother...

Tharja: Just don't expect to me to say it often! ...Or maybe ever again. And just because hexes are off the table doesn't mean I have nothing to teach you. There are more ways than hexing to skin a cat. ...Or other things. Heh. So pay attention, and try to follow along.

Noire: Oh yes, ma'am!

 

About Dark Magic - it's hinted at being as genetic as it is talent. Aversa simply had the talent. Robin has a Sorcerer as a father, and is implied to have such potential in Dark Magic because of his bloodline and connection to Grima. Miriel is able to use Dark Magic because she's fascinated with all magic and how it works with the natural world. Cordelia is a prodigy, plain and simple. The only thing she's not good at is running, and that's not something the game can factor in. (And while I have my head-canon that all Dark Magic users in the game actually have blood-ties to Plegia, it remains strictly a head-canon.) 

 

3 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Camilla from what I hear has it be that she wants to be a Mother to her siblings, except she's blatantly more sexual with Corrin so that's more of an excuse by the writers.

Camilla, while yes wanting to be far more sexual, is that way with nearly everyone. Her excuse is that she saw all of her siblings that weren't Xander, Leo, and Elise all die because of how their mothers treated them as pawns for Garon's favor, herself included. She and Xander couldn't protect any of the other children, so when Leo was left and Elise was born, they became incredibly tight. Corrin fits into this because Camilla doesn't want Corrin to lose out on the sisterly - and maternal - love the elder sister never got. It's not that Camilla isn't capable of loving other people - she was in love with Silas at one point - it's just that she focuses too much on giving what she couldn't have that she doesn't see how much of a smother-er she is. I don't know about you, but I find that to be far more complex than what Faye has going on for her. (Which, by the way, isn't BAD by its nature - Cordelia has the same quirk. The difference is that Cordelia has other things going on for her that Faye doesn't. Cordelia has to deal with Survivor's Guilt, her own genius, and her own self-doubt. Faye literally has her one gimmick. That's her problem.)

 

But overall, can we end this and get back to the point at hand? @Samz707you don't like Awakening because of the characters? That's fine. You can hate and despise whatever game or whichever character you like. BUT USING INCORRECT INFORMATION DOES NOT FURTHER THIS DISCUSSION. So please be aware of that. Also, while you can respond to this post, I won't be responding to your comments. This discussion may not get us anywhere, and the further it goes the more we derail this thread.

[Acacia Sgt]

6 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Chrom still mentions the pies near the end of their S-Support, which kinda makes it seem like the pies actually were a significant reason for him marrying her.

For its worth, the mention of food isn't there in the Japanese script. There he only brings up about how he wants to repay her attention in kind, and about how they'll spend their life together from now on. Localization decided to add more food references for some reason. Likely as you stated, to make it look like Chrom is more zoned in on the food, likely for humor's sake.

Well, at least, if it bothers you that much how localization changed their S support, you can instead have them confess through the Ch11 convo instead.

[Ottservia]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:19 PM, Use the Falchion said:

But why does it matter if it's apart of the main story or not? She, like other surviving children, are going back in time to save a future. I don't see how her characterization needs to relate to this. It's also why supports being a good form of storytelling is a false dichotomy - no one ever said they were supposed to be good at storytelling. 

Also her characterization does relate to saving the future. The only reason she has all the walls and coping mechanisms as she does is because of how dire it was back in that bleak unforgiving future. Her trust issues and survivor’s guilt are a direct result of having to survive in that war torn wasteland. Why does is Severa so critical of others? Because she doesn’t want to needlessly worry about and feel the pain of seeing them get killed. She’s been through that pain countless times and she doesn’t want to live through it again which is another reason why she’s so abrasive. She pushes people away so that when they do die on her she won’t feel that pain again. You see what I mean about how the components of character should feed into one another.

[JimmyBeans]

On 5/28/2021 at 6:33 PM, Ottservia said:

I mean of all the supports I’ve read in awakening I have to find one as shallow as that personally. There are shallow supports in awakening but not nearly that shallow.

I'm not gonna argue that the Tobin/Kliff support is groundbreaking, but not knowing how to be there for someone but wanting to in stressful times is a very real thing and sometimes it's hard for both individuals to find that compromise, it's just simple nice support and base convos/story lines add some more information about those characters. It's not very interesting on paper but it's not as shallow as you think. 

On 5/28/2021 at 6:33 PM, Ottservia said:

I feel like this arguing against a point I never made. That’s not really a problem of the quantity of supports as it is just a problem with the support system in general. Cause a character can have only two supports and still have this be a problem so it has nothing to do with quantity. Also I never said base conversations were a bad thing. I’m actually in agreement that they should come back because of how useful they can be when combined with supports.

 

No you are dodging around the fact that character interaction can be bad for a character, you made the argument that more interaction is never bad but unless you think my examples are wrong this shows you that it can be bad. Whether its through a flawed support system or overload of incompatible characters trying to interact or sloppy writing. Character interaction can be a bad thing and like all aspects of story telling needs to be handled well. Any interaction doesn't automatically get the pass just because it's interaction, it can hurt characters if the writers aren't consistent. 

On 5/28/2021 at 7:28 PM, Ottservia said:

I mean that’s fair but like Falchion just said none of those aspects are ever expanded on anywhere in the game. A support where she helps Clair gather fire wood or medicinal plants would’ve done wonders for fleshing her out a lot more

On 5/28/2021 at 6:33 PM, Ottservia said:

I feel like this arguing against a point I never made. Here’s the thing I can only say all that shit about Severa BECAUSE it is there. If you cut all that shit out then you rob her character of the nuance that provided. It’s not fluff if it adds something to the character. 
 

also another question. How does Silque have anywhere near that amount of nuance and characterization? Silque only has the one thing going for her in that she’s devoted to Mila because she was abandoned by her mother and taken by the church. THAT IS IT! Severa has an inferiority complex, trust issues, an unhealthy work ethic, abandonment issues, survivor’s guilt, anxiety, etc. she’s abrasive but also has a soft side that she only shows to the people she truly cares about and trusts. And I am only summarizing here That’s what nuance is. Silque doesn’t have that so don’t tell me her character just “cuts out the fluff” because there’s no fluff to cut out. What is even your point here? If you can write an analysis on Silque’s character that is as deep and intricate as mine on Severa then I will concede the point. Because Severa isn’t the exception. I could do the same for Inigo, Lucina, Cordelia, Virion, Tharja, and many many more. If I tried to the same for most SoV characters it would only be a paragraph at most. I tried to analyze Silque’s character with the same lens I used to analyze Severa’s character and the difference in the amount I could write for each of them is staggering and that’s my point.

I think @Acacia Sgt summed it up really well which brings me back to a previous point about subtext. I would argue that you don't need these traits that he listed about her to be explained, and it's very easy to understand these things about her just from looking at the interactions she does have. Some people take huge leaps of logic when looking into lines but these traits are quite obvious. Does her confirming these obvious traits in supports really do anything of note?

Also about your analysis', deep and lengthy characters do equal better written, Peri has more content than any SOV character and you learn a lot about why she is the way she is and her backstory in her supports. They actually tie together and make that characterization you spoke of and connect. With that being said then why is she considered by the fanbase to be one of, if not, the worst character in the entire franchise!? Because not only is she incredibly jarring and sticks out for being ridiculously over the top in an already crazy fantasy setting, but she makes almost every character she interacts with a less consistent character and her existence does more harm than good for anyone she talks to (which is another example of character interaction not being good). 

This is all old news and you know all of this already, but my point is that I could write an essay about Peri as long as your Severa one if I wanted too because Peri actually has that level of content, she has a backstory and events she shares in her supports that explain her actions. But a point I have been making the entire time is that it doesn't make a character automatically good and being grounded in a setting, being consistent with other characters, etc. Are a huge part of well written characters. Peri just does fit on the allies team at all and all your character, with a few exceptions, should find her repulsive and want her locked up. 

About your lenz argument the problem to me seems that you used the same lenz to look at a character that is written in an entirely different format than Severa. A quality about characters like Severa is that there is that level of content to consume, but like we discussed earlier there are downsides to characters written like that. And there are upsides and downsides to SOV characters as well.

If people say SOV characters are better written you shouldn't take that as a double standard and instead look at it as a different perspective from individuals, it's not like they are saying Cord and Bord are better written or anything, because SOV does actually give their characters traits unlike a lot of FE1/FE11's cast. Again there are people who are on your side and people who are on my side and neither side is a hot take... they are both quite common takes. 

Lastly I am not trying to get you to concede that Severa is not well written/Silque is better written. I just want you to understand that it's not a double standard to think SOV has a better written cast, just differing views. 

[Ottservia]

2 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

Also about your analysis', deep and lengthy characters do equal better written, Peri has more content than any SOV character and you learn a lot about why she is the way she is and her backstory in her supports. They actually tie together and make that characterization you spoke of and connect. With that being said then why is she considered by the fanbase to be one of, if not, the worst character in the entire franchise!? Because not only is she incredibly jarring and sticks out for being ridiculously over the top in an already crazy fantasy setting, but she makes almost every character she interacts with a less consistent character and her existence does more harm than good for anyone she talks to (which is another example of character interaction not being good). 

This is all old news and you know all of this already, but my point is that I could write an essay about Peri as long as your Severa one if I wanted too because Peri actually has that level of content, she has a backstory and events she shares in her supports that explain her actions. But a point I have been making the entire time is that it doesn't make a character automatically good and being grounded in a setting, being consistent with other characters, etc. Are a huge part of well written characters. Peri just does fit on the allies team at all and all your character, with a few exceptions, should find her repulsive and want her locked up. 

Because people are dumb that’s why. Okay that’s mean but in all seriousness, I do actually consider Peri a well written character because she is just bar maybe a couple bad supports(*glares at her Xander support*). But one or two bad supports in the bunch don’t ruin a character as you seem to think it does. Also I’m tired of this rhetoric that Peri doesn’t “fit in” with the “good guys” because the entirety of Conquest’s cast is composed of misfits, former outlaws, killers, and assassins. Peri being a psycho murderer isn’t too out of place when you have characters like Niles or Arthur running around. Hell, Beruka is an assassin who has said she would turn on Camilla if given the proper contract. Again, I don’t see how Peri is that out of place. Even so, Peri also fits thematically in the whole “found family” aspect of Conquest’s characters. If you notice that every retainer and lord relationship(bar maybe Elise and her retainers though I’d have to read their supports) are all linked together by having “found family” with each other because of how shit their actual family treated them or how they lost their actual family. The awakening trio is obvious. Niles and Beruka were abandoned by their parents. And Peri is a victim of neglect and abandonment. And I think Garon speaks for himself for how awful of a dad he is. In that sense, I do not see the problem with Peri. She fits with the story and setting just fine. 

 

2 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

I'm not gonna argue that the Tobin/Kliff support is groundbreaking, but not knowing how to be there for someone but wanting to in stressful times is a very real thing and sometimes it's hard for both individuals to find that compromise, it's just simple nice support and base convos/story lines add some more information about those characters. It's not very interesting on paper but it's not as shallow as you think. 

Not saying there isn’t anything to read out of it or that people can’t relate to it but if that is what they were going for then they didn’t do it very well because there’s hardly any set up to it nor is there any payoff. The idea behind it is neat but that means nothing if the execution is shallower than a puddle. There is no nuance to it. No set up and barely any pay off and lacks any sense of substantial characterization.

 

2 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

No you are dodging around the fact that character interaction can be bad for a character, you made the argument that more interaction is never bad but unless you think my examples are wrong this shows you that it can be bad. Whether its through a flawed support system or overload of incompatible characters trying to interact or sloppy writing. Character interaction can be a bad thing and like all aspects of story telling needs to be handled well. Any interaction doesn't automatically get the pass just because it's interaction, it can hurt characters if the writers aren't consistent. 

I’m just gonna quote @Use the Falchion because they pretty much explained it better than I ever could

Quote

I really can't defend Beruka, as her issues are weird at best, but in the defense of Lon'qu and Bernadetta (and probably Tharja), it's not so much as "they're getting over their issues as a whole," but rather "they're acclimating to this individual they're talking to now." Heck, Lon'qu explicitly states that he will never get over his trauma and phobia. But through the supports, he gets used to individuals, and that's progress. Bernadetta is an admittedly more annoying version of the same thing. She's so stuck in her head with every single person, she has to start over each time she talks to someone. If I have a fear of dogs, me getting to know one specific dog isn't going to ease my fear of all dogs. My sister struggles with a phobia of birds. If I were to get a pet parrot or owl, she may, in time, come around to not fearing that specific pet, but she's still going to freak out when confronted with pigeons. (Admittedly, your issues with them not truly conquering their issues is my gripe with most of Bernadetta's paired endings, but not one with her supports.) 

2 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

If people say SOV characters are better written you shouldn't take that as a double standard and instead look at it as a different perspective from individuals, it's not like they are saying Cord and Bord are better written or anything, because SOV does actually give their characters traits unlike a lot of FE1/FE11's cast. Again there are people who are on your side and people who are on my side and neither side is a hot take... they are both quite common takes. 

It is a double standard when people say “Oh the characters in awakening and fates are only one note gimmicks” but will defend Faye or Kliff as being “deep” or “complex” simply for “not being anime tropes” or whatever. Cause for one that is incredibly dismissive of awakening and fates characters because they’re not all just one dimensional gimmicks. It just straight up isn’t true and I hate it when are dismissive like that. It’s disrespectful and insensitive(not to mention a little racist but I won’t pull the pin on that grenade). I just generally hate when people do that especially in regards to comparison. A is not worse than for not being B. Whenever I compare I always try to avoid doing that. If I do end up doing I’m comparing surface level aspects like the lack of nuance in one thing. I’m not comparing the nuance itself but rather the amount of it. Here’s the thing, you don’t say SoV characters more complex than awakening or fates characters because that is provably not true as I have demonstrated. Silque is not nearly as complex a character as Severa. That much is true to say otherwise would be dismissive of all nuances and complexities of Severa’s character. Cause I just don’t like the comparison in general but if you’re going to make the comparison anyway do so in good faith and respect. It bothers me because people say awakening characters are one dimensional when that is far from the truth but then put SoV characters on a pedestal because it’s more in line with their personal tastes. It’s that bias that bothers me so much. Just because you like something more that doesn’t make it inherently better nor does it give you the excuse to be dismissive of other works. I may criticize SoV harshly but that’s not for lack of trying. I have gone back to replay SoV on two separate occasions for the sole purpose of trying to understand what people saw in it that I didn’t. And every single time I come to the same conclusions. I’ve even read developer interviews and everything. Don’t get me wrong, I understand both perspectives that doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. In fact I disagree with it heavily. I’m nothing if not fair or at least I try to be. Throwing awakening and fates characters under the bus to put SoV characters on a pedestal is what bothers me. I don’t care which one you prefer because that’s just how personal preference works. What I do care about is if you’re being unfairly dismissive or not due to your own biases. 

 

2 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

On 5/28/2021 at 8:33 PM, Ottservia said:

 

I think @Acacia Sgt summed it up really well which brings me back to a previous point about subtext. I would argue that you don't need these traits that he listed about her to be explained, and it's very easy to understand these things about her just from looking at the interactions she does have. Some people take huge leaps of logic when looking into lines but these traits are quite obvious. Does her confirming these obvious traits in supports really do anything of note?

Yes it does! It makes her character stand out more. It makes her more memorable and allows for interesting characterization and dynamics. It endears us to the character more because we know more about them. If you really want to argue subtext then you agree with me here because that is what subtext is. If all we knew about Severa was her inferiority complex and the shopaholic thing she would not be nearly as interesting of a character. Why? Because the writers made no effort into showing how it all connects in meaningful ways and subtly show how those things play into her personality and how she interacts with others. We know Severa’s self loathing is really bad simply because of how quick she is to vehemently deny a compliment. It’s a subtle way to show how truly insecure she is which meaningfully connects to what we already know about her character. Silque does not have that and that’s the problem. It’s what makes her character so forgettable to me. She’s a generic fantasy healer with a couple things sprinkled in there for added flavor. Severa isn’t just a tsundere. She’s a tsundere with depth, complexity, and quirks that make her stick out and relatable. I like Severa because I know all this about her. It’s why I, and many others, relate to her so heavily. I struggle to find a reason as to why anyone would relate to Silque beyond just “well she’s a nice religious person” because there’s so little we know about her character. She has no interesting characterization or emotional range for that matter. We never see her in any other emotional state beyond the default. Whereas with Severa we see a wide range of emotions from anger, frustration, sadness, happiness, joy, pity, etc. which again makes her more memorable and relatable because she experiences realistic swings of emotions. Because humans are emotional creatures which is how we connect with other people and by extension characters. Little bits of characterization can go a long way in endearing people to a character and SoV fails utterly in that regard.

[Seazas]

Nooo... I come back and people are unironically gearing to defend Peri? One of the most blatant cases of Fates being ill equipped to handle certain characters well?

This is heart breaking.

[Use the Falchion]

 

6 hours ago, Seazas said:

I come back and people are unironically gearing to defend Peri?

Ha! Peri may be an awful character, but she does have depth and interests outside of her one quirk. (She can bake and cook, likes fashion and make-up, can out-manipulate Severa/Selena, and ironically - or rather, hypocritically - leads an anger-management course.) And her one quirk does come from other aspects of her past, which feels like solid characterization to me. In many ways, Peri shows both the good and the bad of supports. If Peri had no supports (or just one Base Conversation), I don't think we'd see anything beyond her lust for killing. It's her defining feature, and when you don't have time for anything else, that's what you highlight. On the flip side, despite having what I'd say a mostly equal balance of good and bad supports (YMMV on this one), Peri is still...well, her reputation is what it is for a reason. Supports can't fully fix a broken or one-note character; but the more attempts given in the form of more support convos, the more chances you have to try.

 

6 hours ago, Seazas said:

One of the most blatant cases of Fates being ill equipped to handle certain characters well?

I originally read this as "the most blatant case..." and was about to be like "doesn't that title belong to Soleil?" (Who is, despite the controversy and all, a favorite of mine.)

[Venger_06]

7 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

I originally read this as "the most blatant case..." and was about to be like "doesn't that title belong to Soleil?" (Who is, despite the controversy and all, a favorite of mine.)

Soleil had problems with localization, I think that alleviates it.

[Seazas]

49 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

Soleil had problems with localization, I think that alleviates it.

Soleil sucked in the original script too, she was worse there.

[Venger_06]

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Soleil sucked in the original script too, she was worse there.

Let's agree to disagree then.

[Seazas]

5 hours ago, Teehee the Sixth said:

Let's agree to disagree then.

I presume you forgot what went down in one of her original support chains? Such as... Corrin's?

[Venger_06]

51 minutes ago, Seazas said:

I presume you forgot what went down in one of her original support chains? Such as... Corrin's?

Yes. But then they messed up the rest of her supports (except arguably Forrest). Anyway, it doesn't matter anymore. What's gone is gone.

[Etrurian emperor]

21 hours ago, Teehee the Sixth said:

Soleil had problems with localization, I think that alleviates it.

I think its the other way around. The problems with Soleil stemmed from the original version and its the localisation that tried(and arguably failed) to alleviate it. 

On 6/2/2021 at 3:48 PM, Use the Falchion said:

 Ha! Peri may be an awful character, but she does have depth and interests outside of her one quirk. (She can bake and cook, likes fashion and make-up, can out-manipulate Severa/Selena, and ironically - or rather, hypocritically - leads an anger-management course.) And her one quirk does come from other aspects of her past, which feels like solid characterization to me. In many ways, Peri shows both the good and the bad of supports. If Peri had no supports (or just one Base Conversation), I don't think we'd see anything beyond her lust for killing. It's her defining feature, and when you don't have time for anything else, that's what you highlight.

I think Peri's gimmick, characterization and past are more or less fine. What breaks Peri is how other people react to her. Peri is essentially Hanz and Iago with an explanation for the insanity, which would work if other characters would treat her the same as Hanz and Iago. The big problem is that noble Corrin and Xander are shockingly okay with Peri being a serial killer. I don't think anything from Peri's past or additional information could ever fix that situation.

Peri might have been great if she was the fourth member of Team Garon, either as a complete villain or someone who joins at the end only because Corrin and Xander make it a point to adopt Peri and get her the help she so clearly needs. 

[Use the Falchion]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

What breaks Peri is how other people react to her. Peri is essentially Hanz and Iago with an explanation for the insanity, which would work if other characters would treat her the same as Hanz and Iago.

I won't disagree with that. 

 

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The big problem is that noble Corrin and Xander are shockingly okay with Peri being a serial killer. I don't think anything from Peri's past or additional information could ever fix that situation.

Corrin, definitely. Xander probably shouldn't, but I could actually see a case for him keeping Peri as a retainer - both Leo and Camilla have assassins/wet-work people on their staff in the form of Niles and Beruka respectively. It isn't too hard to imagine that Xander would keep a person like that on his retinue either. (Although, it'd be far more interesting if that person was Laslow, but then that would change the nature of their supports, and I like their supports.) 

 

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Corrin and Xander make it a point to adopt Peri and get her the help she so clearly needs. 

To be fair to Peri, she does get the help she needs in many of her paired endings...but yes, it's definitely something that should have been given more focus instead of thrown in at the literal end of the game. 

[Ottservia]

5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

What breaks Peri is how other people react to her. Peri is essentially Hanz and Iago with an explanation for the insanity, which would work if other characters would treat her the same as Hanz and Iago. The big problem is that noble Corrin and Xander are shockingly okay with Peri being a serial killer. I don't think anything from Peri's past or additional information could ever fix that situation.

You could actually make this exact same argument for Henry or more accurately Japanese Henry because Peri is just a genderbent Henry or at least their gimmick is the exact same in that they both have a very perverse sense of innocence. The primary difference is that Henry was changed heavily in localization while Peri was not and seeing people’s reaction to Peri now I see why 8-4 would make such a decision.

 

3 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Corrin, definitely. Xander probably shouldn't, but I could actually see a case for him keeping Peri as a retainer - both Leo and Camilla have assassins/wet-work people on their staff in the form of Niles and Beruka respectively. It isn't too hard to imagine that Xander would keep a person like that on his retinue either. (Although, it'd be far more interesting if that person was Laslow, but then that would change the nature of their supports, and I like their supports.) 

I like to view to Xander and Peri’s relationship as Xander sort of being the father figure Peri never really had. At least that’s the vibe I get from their supports. Also it just lends itself well into that found family theme I mentioned earlier.

[Seazas]

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You could actually make this exact same argument for Henry or more accurately Japanese Henry because Peri is just a genderbent Henry or at least their gimmick is the exact same in that they both have a very perverse sense of innocence. The primary difference is that Henry was changed heavily in localization while Peri was not and seeing people’s reaction to Peri now I see why 8-4 would make such a decision.

 

I like to view to Xander and Peri’s relationship as Xander sort of being the father figure Peri never really had. At least that’s the vibe I get from their supports. Also it just lends itself well into that found family theme I mentioned earlier.

It's more glaring for Peri as there's another character extremely similar to her who gets demonized and bitched at while Peri pretty much goes unchallenged. She's a poorly handled character and always will be to me.

[Ottservia]

11 hours ago, Seazas said:

It's more glaring for Peri as there's another character extremely similar to her who gets demonized and bitched at while Peri pretty much goes unchallenged. She's a poorly handled character and always will be to me.

The primary difference between Peri and Hans is that Peri has a child like innocence while Hans does not. It’s a matter of intent really.

[Etrurian emperor]

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

The primary difference between Peri and Hans is that Peri has a child like innocence while Hans does not. It’s a matter of intent really.

True but I don't think its a meaningful difference because the end result is still a mass murderer. The reason as to why Hans is irredeemably evil and Peri is just a little bit quirky is essentially the writers saying ''because we said so''. Just leaving it as a matter of intend isn't sufficient in this case because the comparison with Iago and Hans is always going to be there. Unless handled properly its always going to introduce the hypocrisy of Corrin and co embracing one mass murderer while being horrified with the other. 

[Seazas]

42 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

True but I don't think its a meaningful difference because the end result is still a mass murderer. The reason as to why Hans is irredeemably evil and Peri is just a little bit quirky is essentially the writers saying ''because we said so''. Just leaving it as a matter of intend isn't sufficient in this case because the comparison with Iago and Hans is always going to be there. Unless handled properly its always going to introduce the hypocrisy of Corrin and co embracing one mass murderer while being horrified with the other. 

This, I hate how Peri's treated as a cute quirky character rather than honing in on her issues. Fuck that man, I don't care if she's slightly more childish about it; that blatant disregard for life and actually killing numerous people (and threatening to kill her own allies before) with zero consequence just because she's cute is shit.

[Mirania]

On 4/24/2021 at 8:02 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I like supports because they require a certain degree of player choice and effort. Like, I'm choosing to have these two people fight alongside each other, so they get to know each other better.

I kinda saw it as just something to do while you played the main game, like finding hidden weapons, or trying to form a circle with all your units( just kidding). So your post is essentially my take.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Mirania

[Ottservia]

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

True but I don't think its a meaningful difference because the end result is still a mass murderer. The reason as to why Hans is irredeemably evil and Peri is just a little bit quirky is essentially the writers saying ''because we said so''. Just leaving it as a matter of intend isn't sufficient in this case because the comparison with Iago and Hans is always going to be there. Unless handled properly its always going to introduce the hypocrisy of Corrin and co embracing one mass murderer while being horrified with the other. 

I mean comparing her to Iago doesn’t make any sense first of all. Hans is a more appropriate comparison. Regardless, I feel like the main issue here is just her support with Xander which doesn’t address the discrepancy. I mean it kind of does but not really. Cause the Corrin support is mostly fine if you ask me. Cause like when you look at Peri’s supports a lot of it is more focussed on her being childish rather than the murderer thing which makes sense cause the primary thing regarding her character is that she’s too immature/naive to really understand the moral implications of what she’s doing. Like I said she has a very perverse sense of innocence. It’s like trying to explain to a five year old why swear words are bad albeit to an immense extreme. Also another difference with her and Hans is that Peri can actually be reasoned with. Though I dunno, Peri is a weird character.

 

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

This, I hate how Peri's treated as a cute quirky character rather than honing in on her issues. Fuck that man, I don't care if she's slightly more childish about it; that blatant disregard for life and actually killing numerous people (and threatening to kill her own allies before) with zero consequence just because she's cute is shit.

I mean to be fair she is REALLY cute. Also something that was cut in localization is that Peri would often talk about how big her chest was so you know there’s also that.

[Seazas]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

I mean to be fair she is REALLY cute. Also something that was cut in localization is that Peri would often talk about how big her chest was so you know there’s also that.

I don't know how you do it Ottservia but you managed to make me dislike her more.

What an awful character