Why are supports still considered to be a good form of storytelling in FE?

[Vicious Sal]

6 hours ago, Seazas said:

I don't know how you do it Ottservia but you managed to make me dislike her more.

What an awful character

I get this feeling, I was never a fan of Frederick but Anacybele's obsessing over him made him one of the least liked characters in the series for me. Quite a few characters can end up that way through unhealthy dedication from fans. Flayn and Severa are other examples of units I just like less because of Stans. Though Flayn at least is still a well written character in my own opinions, so she doesn't fall too far down. 

Regarding Peri, I haven't even played Fates enough to get her and I already dislike her from her Feh incarnation and what I've read here.

Though what I actually mostly wanted to point out. People are diving way to deep into character specific  supports, whereas the topic was about supports in general. Though the conversation did showcase that Supports are easily capalbe of creating well written characters with character arcs. 
Though sadly the reverse of course can also be true. And a lot of characters fall victim of bad supports.

[Ottservia]

7 hours ago, Seazas said:

I don't know how you do it Ottservia but you managed to make me dislike her more.

What an awful character

Hey man if you don’t like big anime titty that’s not my problem.

[Samz707]

11 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean to be fair she is REALLY cute. Also something that was cut in localization is that Peri would often talk about how big her chest was so you know there’s also that.

So Hans/Lago would be more sympathetic if they were cute anime girls who talk about their tits?

[Use the Falchion]

51 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

So Hans/Lago would be more sympathetic if they were cute anime girls who talk about their tits?

I mean, the fandom would certainly like them more regardless of their innocence if that was the case...

 

6 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Though sadly the reverse of course can also be true. And a lot of characters fall victim of bad supports.

True, but that's why I think we need to advocate for better writing (and that starts with better characters IMO) than replacing the system as a whole. If the writing of the new system OP wants is weak, and frankly doesn't give characters half of the amount of time, then it's not going to help the characters any more than a bad support would. At least with multiple support options, you get the chance of getting a good one. (In the case of Peri, could be seen as her supports with Selena, Laslow, and possibly Kaze. Her mother/daughter supports with Selkie and Kana are really cute and darkly hilarious (for the later) too.) 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[Vicious Sal]

19 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

I mean, the fandom would certainly like them more regardless of their innocence if that was the case...

 

True, but that's why I think we need to advocate for better writing (and that starts with better characters IMO) than replacing the system as a whole. If the writing of the new system OP wants is weak, and frankly doesn't give characters half of the amount of time, then it's not going to help the characters any more than a bad support would. At least with multiple support options, you get the chance of getting a good one. (In the case of Peri, could be seen as her supports with Selena, Laslow, and possibly Kaze. Her mother/daughter supports with Selkie and Kana are really cute and darkly hilarious (for the later) too.) 

That’s pretty much what I’d posted earlier in the topic as well. It’s not the format that’s the issue. And no one would say no to extra stuff like Tellius base convo’s. Just have it not be bad fanfic levels of writing.

[null]

This thread has blown up quite a bit, huh.

Directly addressing OP's question, I'd say that supports aren't exactly a good form of storytelling because they really aren't intended to help convey the story itself.

Take Path of Radiance for example. Its story is made clear to the player whether or not they actually engage with the supports themselves. Their sole purpose is to flesh out the characters that are there, which it does quite well. The same is likewise true for other FE games. Supports are a purely optional method of expanding upon the cast of each game. Of course, support quality has varied quite a bit from game to game (GBAFE is bland, FE9 is solid, FE13-14 are anywhere from hot garbage to mediocre with a few good ones, FE15 is also solid, and FE16 is generally of good quality). But regardless of quality, they all give more insight into each character as intended outside of the main flow of the story.

I say this to say that the story never hinges (nor should it hinge) on whether or not someone views supports (in FE games thus far). Supports have been there to boost what should already be a strong foundation for the story. I'm certainly not opposed to doing something new for the series, as innovating and implementing change is a natural part of progressing as a franchise. I think your ideas for what supports could be is interesting. Perhaps IntSys will do something different, as the old system is fairly archaic at this point. Something that more naturally integrates side exposition and conversations into the main plot is the ideal, I'd say.

On a side note, I firmly agree with the notion that permadeath has little place in a series trying to flesh out its characters. This has been a problem for quite some time where game design conflicts with story direction. It hardly makes sense to establish characters and let the player have some kind of connection with them if they can be killed off. It's limiting. And IntSys has recognized this, as mechanics like Mila's Turnwheel and Divine Pulse show.

I'd sooner have more effective methods of storytelling and character development at the cost of permadeath if that was what was necessary to accomplish that.

[Ottservia]

34 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

FE13-14 are anywhere from hot garbage to mediocre with a few good ones, FE15 is also solid, and FE16 is generally of good quality

I can count on one hand the amount of SoV supports that are actually good cause a lot of them lack any sense of subtstance or indepth characterization. I really do just fail to understand where the idea that these supports are good comes from cause from my understanding they’re about as deep and complex as Kellam supports(probably even less cause at least Kellam usually has an interesting/fun character to interact with leading to some fun scenarios albeit briefly) and he has the worst supports in awakening.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Ottservia

[null]

9 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I really do just fail to understand where the idea that these supports are good comes from

Because I like them more. It doesn't get any more complex than that.

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

Because I like them more. It doesn't get any more complex than that.

Yeah but that doesn’t make the support good. That’s not how criticism works. I mean if you like them more fine but that doesn’t make them better than awakening or fates supports. I don’t like horror movies but I don’t go saying horror movies are garbage now do I? Just because you like something more that doesn’t give you the right to be unfairly dismissive towards the things you dislike or throw those things under the bus. Cause that kind of comparison doesn’t do anyone any good.

[null]

Just now, Ottservia said:

Yeah but that doesn’t make the support good. That’s not how criticism works. I mean if you like them more fine but that doesn’t make them better than awakening or fates supports. I don’t like horror movies but I don’t go saying horror movies are garbage now do I? Just because you like something more that doesn’t give you the right to be unfairly dismissive towards the things you dislike or throw those things under the bus. Cause that kind of comparison doesn’t do anyone any good.

Imagine thinking my comment was anything more than me expressing my own personal thoughts on the topic.

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, twilitfalchion said:

Imagine thinking my comment was anything more than me expressing my own personal thoughts on the topic.

You can express your thoughts on things without being unfairly dismissive of things. You know that right? 

[null]

Just now, Ottservia said:

You can express your thoughts on things without being unfairly dismissive of things. You know that right? 

Who said I was? What you read above, the comments about support quality, were my own thoughts about what the support quality has been like in the series. I never said that what I said was gospel, or that anyone else had to agree. Those were me speaking from my own perspective. That's it.

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

Who said I was? What you read above, the comments about support quality, were my own thoughts about what the support quality has been like in the series. I never said that what I said was gospel, or that anyone else had to agree. Those were me speaking from my own perspective. That's it.

Never said you did any of that. I know perfectly well that those are just your own thoughts. That doesn’t mean I have to agree. In fact I heavily disagree for the reasons I stated. I feel like you’re not giving awakening and fates supports enough credit and giving too much credit to SoV supports. If you want to discuss the topic further you are free to do so but saying “it’s just my opinion” does not further the discussion at all.

[Kori]

10 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

You can express your thoughts on things without being unfairly dismissive of things. You know that right? 

You spent almost half this topic being unfairly dismissive of SoV to prop up your tsundere's supports.

[Ottservia]

Just now, Kori said:

You spent almost half this topic being unfairly dismissive of SoV to prop up your tsundere's supports.

You know if you actually read my arguments you wouldn’t be saying this

[Kori]

I read them and I saw you repeatedly dismissing good points made in favor of SoV, in what read a lot like bad faith.

That's all I had to say.

[Ottservia]

Just now, Kori said:

I read them and I saw you repeatedly dismissing good points made in favor of SoV, in what read a lot like bad faith.

That's all I had to say.

I won’t deny I made a couple bad faith arguments/comparisons(albeit some of them were intentionally done so in bad faith) I ain’t perfect but I feel like my main point still stands relatively strongly

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Samz707 said:

So Hans/Lago would be more sympathetic if they were cute anime girls who talk about their tits?

Better question, would they be more sympathetic if they talked about their tits while not being cute anime girls?

Edited June 5, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Better question, would they be more sympathetic if they talked about their tits while not being cute anime girls?

SMH at Hans-chan not showing enough of dem bara tiddies.

[Samz707]

31 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

SMH at Hans-chan not showing enough of dem bara tiddies.

At least Halloween Dorcas does.

[Use the Falchion]

7 hours ago, Samz707 said:

So Hans/Lago would be more sympathetic if they were cute anime girls who talk about their tits?

And revisiting this in a more serious fashion, I think Hans/Iago (with an I, not an L, just so you know 🙂 ) wouldn't necessarily be more sympathetic, but definitely more understandable if they had supports and/or dialogue explaining their backstory and motivations. If either of them were put in a situation where they said "yeah, I'm a jerk because I tried it the right way, and my family died, so now I don't care about anyone or anything other than glory, status, and/or revenge," then we'd definitely understand them. Or heck, maybe them openly admitting that they're terrible people, but they've survived this long, so they're fine with it. (And then when Corrin points out that they've only survived because s/he let them, allow Hans/Iago to counter with the fact that this may be the case, but they're still terrible AND still alive - so clearly being terrible has still worked out for them. It's just that now they're terrible to people Corrin is fighting; so whose morality is truly worse? Or something like that.) There are ways to make the trope work with men as well as women. 

And ultimately, I think that understanding is more important than sympathy. And from there, the idea of reforming but not accepting redemption or even just working with people you hate (ala how Chrom recruits Gangrel in the paralogues, or what Aversa feels like in her C-A supports with M!Robin) could be explored. And Fire Emblem has handled some of this well before, with Jaffar and Hector's dialogue (and the Jaffar/Matthew support) and Henry (that kid weirds everyone out, and rightfully so), so it's not impossible. I think how Peri is handled speaks more about how Fates can at times be the embodiment of "too much of a good thing." But one failed (again, YMMV) version of this doesn't mean the game shouldn't stop trying either. 

 

[Parrhesia]

If the topic doesn't course-correct quickly, there will cease to be a topic.

[Etrurian emperor]

3 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

And revisiting this in a more serious fashion, I think Hans/Iago (with an I, not an L, just so you know 🙂 ) wouldn't necessarily be more sympathetic, but definitely more understandable if they had supports and/or dialogue explaining their backstory and motivations. If either of them were put in a situation where they said "yeah, I'm a jerk because I tried it the right way, and my family died, so now I don't care about anyone or anything other than glory, status, and/or revenge," then we'd definitely understand them. Or heck, maybe them openly admitting that they're terrible people, but they've survived this long, so they're fine with it. (And then when Corrin points out that they've only survived because s/he let them, allow Hans/Iago to counter with the fact that this may be the case, but they're still terrible AND still alive - so clearly being terrible has still worked out for them. It's just that now they're terrible to people Corrin is fighting; so whose morality is truly worse? Or something like that.) There are ways to make the trope work with men as well as women. 

Iago is a lost cause but Hans would be fairly easy to make a bit more understandable. Nohr is supposed to be suffering from horrific poverty so Hans doing whatever he can to advance himself because the alternative is starving in the gutter could have worked. Maybe he doesn't want to return to that life, maybe he has a family to support or even wants to fund his village with all that money he's looting from other places.  

None of that seems to have ever been the intention behind Hans but compared to Iago he seems a lot more sane. Iago does what he does because he's a psychopath who seemingly gets off on the suffering of others. Hans on the enjoys the atrocities too but still seems to be driven primarily by the idea of a big fat paycheck for his troubles. 

[Use the Falchion]

7 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

None of that seems to have ever been the intention behind Hans but compared to Iago he seems a lot more sane.

True and true. But that's also a beauty of supports - characters can become more than who we (or the developers really) first imagined them being. There's an accessibility of depth and change that can be accessed in a way other systems simply can't do as well - or at least not as easily. (I'm trying to help steer this back on-course lol)

Edited June 6, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 6/5/2021 at 3:12 AM, Vicious Sal said:

I get this feeling, I was never a fan of Frederick but Anacybele's obsessing over him made him one of the least liked characters in the series for me.

Pour one out for Anacybele.

On 6/5/2021 at 4:23 AM, Ottservia said:

Hey man if you don’t like big anime titty that’s not my problem.

"Hey man don't man fan of Severa she's a good character and her supports are better than what people get SoV. At the end of the day though I like looking at her chest."

On 6/5/2021 at 8:29 AM, Samz707 said:

So Hans/Lago would be more sympathetic if they were cute anime girls who talk about their tits?

On 6/5/2021 at 1:46 PM, Jotari said:

Better question, would they be more sympathetic if they talked about their tits while not being cute anime girls?

On 6/5/2021 at 1:52 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

SMH at Hans-chan not showing enough of dem bara tiddies.

You know those Hans nips are rock hard under that leather.

Strangely enough, the fandom would probably like Hans a lot more if he talked about the logistical difficulties of fighting while his rock hard nips are encased in tight leather. "Yeah man, it chaffs a little bit but I kind of like that."

On 6/5/2021 at 10:30 AM, twilitfalchion said:

On a side note, I firmly agree with the notion that permadeath has little place in a series trying to flesh out its characters. This has been a problem for quite some time where game design conflicts with story direction. It hardly makes sense to establish characters and let the player have some kind of connection with them if they can be killed off. It's limiting. And IntSys has recognized this, as mechanics like Mila's Turnwheel and Divine Pulse show.

I'd sooner have more effective methods of storytelling and character development at the cost of permadeath if that was what was necessary to accomplish that.

Gonna hard disagree with you here. I would rather Fire Emblem move more towards permadeath and away from character-driven storytelling.

Firstly, as I covered in my original response all those days ago, the emergent plot from gameplay is a lot more interesting than whatever is written by the writers. This makes sense, because Fire Emblem is a video game and not a visual novel...I mean, it kind of is a visual novel, but there's a clear conflict between those two elements. It's also a narrative structure which is much more unique to Fire Emblem than scrapping permadeath would be.

Furthermore, I honestly think characters were better when they didn't have tons of supports. Castor (the 30 defense general) has very little dialogue, but you can easily tell whether he's the kind of guy you like or not. When you have very few lines to work with, even a bad writer is forced to make those lines put in work.