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LyonDidNothingWrong

Deirdre/Diadora was a horrible Mom to Seliph/Celice

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Not only did She abandoned him when he was just a Newborn  , leaving him under Shannan's Care (he was just a kid back then) , disobeying Sigurd's Words, when he didn't even know how to take care of himself at that age just because she was so thirsty about Sigurd's Jeigan conqueror of castles Dick and she couldn't wait anymore for him, ditching Seliph like shit and forgetting all about of him just because her lust for Sigurd, not only that - But She never tried to Seek after him when is heavily implied that at some point she Learned about his marriage with Sigurd even tho she never regained back her memories She DID know about having another Son but she never tried to seek after him,  Leaving Seliph Dread Alone under Oifey and Shannan's care with 0 Inherited Money from her or even Good Stats, heck, he wasn't even a Pure Blood Naga.

The only time than Deirdre acted like a mother to Seliph was in the After Life being a Ghost, but that probably was Seliph Daydreaming about his parents and how he avenged them after all and fulfilled Sigurd's Dreams

Deirdre got what she deserved for being such a bad mother and this is the root of Sigurd's tragedy and eventually Demise.

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She was worried about her lover, out there risking his life. 

She left her child in good care to go get his father back.

Sigurd also left Seliph.
 

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3 hours ago, Vince777 said:

She was worried about her lover, out there risking his life. 

She left her child in good care to go get his father back.

Sigurd also left Seliph.
 

 

This.

I find it interesting that the original poster seemingly has no problem with Sigurd leaving his child behind to go out to a battlefield, but Deirdre doing the same makes her a horrible person. There's nothing wrong with leaving your child with a babysitter, and faulting Deirdre for being abducted by an ugly evil wizard with teleportation powers is victim-blaming.

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6 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

This.

I find it interesting that the original poster seemingly has no problem with Sigurd leaving his child behind to go out to a battlefield, but Deirdre doing the same makes her a horrible person. There's nothing wrong with leaving your child with a babysitter, and faulting Deirdre for being abducted by an ugly evil wizard with teleportation powers is victim-blaming.

Ooh, let me be third on the dogpile! Dierdre leaving the castle was, in no way, a parenting mistake. She left Seliph with Shanan who, while young, appears to be a competent babysitter. Seliph came to no direct harm as a result of being left with Shanan.

Dierdre was kidnapped, sure, but by a super-powerful villain who could show up and kidnap anyone he wants to. No one could have foreseen Manfroy appearing when and where he did.

Oh, and Manfroy wiped her memories. She may have remembered some details after re-encountering Sigurd at the end of Gen I, but I don't believe that's ever made explicit. Even if she's aware of Seliph existing, what are her options? She's married to a megalomaniac, and has an evil cult coming and going in her household. Fleeing would very likely mean abandoning Julius and Julia. And even if she runs, whether or not she takes them, Manfroy could just re-capture her. As it turned out, staying behind almost certainly saved Julia's life.

Also:

6 hours ago, LyonDidNothingWrong said:

Leaving Seliph Dread Alone under Oifey and Shannan's care with 0 Inherited Money from her or even Good Stats, heck, he wasn't even a Pure Blood Naga.

This is your worst argument. Parents have no agency in how they pass down Holy Blood. Seliph already has Major Baldur holy blood, and some of the best growths in all of Gen II.

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And like... it was in a castle. This is FE4, not 5, your 'face' units do not represent your entire IC force. There would have been guards. Manfroy's just written terribly and has complete agency over the plot, which he only sporadically decides to use.

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At least Deirdre left Seliph with good people who did take care of him, unlike Ethlyn who literally took her little girl on to the battle field which lead to Altena being raised by her parents killer.  I see Deirdre as a victim she was kidnapped and mind wiped, even if she did end up remembering Seliph she couldn't just escape and go to him since she would have been hunted down and that could have lead to Seliph being killed. 

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I'll play devil's advocate and agree to a certain expect. What Deirdre did was not exactly the most responsible thing. Instead of having faith in her husband, she left the safety of the castle and only got kidnapped, which was a horrible mistake. Didn't even leave with an armed escort. 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'll play devil's advocate and agree to a certain expect. What Deirdre did was not exactly the most responsible thing. Instead of having faith in her husband, she left the safety of the castle and only got kidnapped, which was a horrible mistake. Didn't even leave with an armed escort. 

I could agree with this, if she were caught up in the fighting and somehow unable to defend herself. Like, suppose Eldigan is charging in with Mystletainn. Leaving (presumably) without any knights to defend her would be a poor choice in such a scenario. 

The thing is, though, she doesn't get caught up in the fighting. Rather, she's captured by Manfroy. He warps in, grabs her, and warps out. No one had any reason to anticipate him as a threat here. It's like getting scooped up by a pterodactyl, thousands of miles from Jurassic Park. If she left with an armed escort, perhaps she wouldn't be captured. But as nameless mooks, Manfroy could probably kill them all with little effort, before taking Dierdre.

The limit of this warping power is unclear. He likely could do it in the presence of Sigurd or his army, but doesn't, because he doesn't want to be discovered. There might be something about the home castle preventing him from warping in, but again, it might just be that he doesn't want to risk being discovered. So the only way for Dierdre to avoid being captured by Manfroy, is to never be outside alone. Which is a highly unrealistic expectation - especially in light, again, of Manfroy not yet being a known threat.

In sum, running onto the field of battle, alone, was not smart in light of those defensive stats. But Dierdre's capture was basically inevitable, in light of Manfroy's absurd power. And she can't be held responsible for falling victim to a threat that nobody had any reason to anticipate.

3 hours ago, EricaofRenais said:

At least Deirdre left Seliph with good people who did take care of him, unlike Ethlyn who literally took her little girl on to the battle field which lead to Altena being raised by her parents killer.  I see Deirdre as a victim she was kidnapped and mind wiped, even if she did end up remembering Seliph she couldn't just escape and go to him since she would have been hunted down and that could have lead to Seliph being killed. 

I do think "the ethics of Ethlyn" is a much more promising, and likely contentious, topic for discussion. But whether or not Deirdre is a better mother than Ethlyn, isn't itself a statement on whether she's a good mother to Seliph.

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2 hours ago, Icelerate said:

In other words, someone getting captured or assassinated would imply they are bad parents? 

A parent who isn’t involved in their child’s life is a bad parent. You can’t be a good parent if your not there. Even if she was kidnapped and brain washed, she still abandoned her child(the reason why is irrelevant). 

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10 hours ago, ciphertul said:

A parent who isn’t involved in their child’s life is a bad parent. You can’t be a good parent if your not there. Even if she was kidnapped and brain washed, she still abandoned her child(the reason why is irrelevant). 

I don't believe "abandoned" is the right word here. It implies a degree of choice, or agency, in the matter. Like, I wouldn't say that a mother who dies in childbirth is "abandoning" their child. And I certainly wouldn't call her a "bad mother". Deirdre was forced apart from Seliph, largely due to factors outside of her control. She's robbed of the chance to act as a mother, good or bad, to him.

...Unless by "abandoning", you're referring to her choice to leave Seliph with Shanan. Which implies that anytime that parents leave their child with a babysitter, they're "abandoning" that child. That's, well, asinine. If anything, "abandoning" Seliph turned out for the better. Had she taken her child out of the castle with her, Manfroy would have captured them both - and likely either killed or brainwashed the son.

Edited by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Changed a word.

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1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't believe "abandoned" is the right word here. It implies a degree of choice, or agency, in the matter. Like, I wouldn't say that a mother who dies in childbirth is "abandoning" their child. And I certainly wouldn't call her a "bad mother". Deirdre was forced apart from Seliph, largely due to factors outside of her control. She's robbed of the chance to act as a mother, good or bad, to him.

You are misunderstanding the difference between bad and terrible, bad simply means negative and that is correct in this case. A mother who dies in child birth is abandoning her child, which is why I said the reason was irrelevant. She cannot physical be there and be involved in her child's life, but again bad does not mean terrible. 

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15 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I could agree with this, if she were caught up in the fighting and somehow unable to defend herself. Like, suppose Eldigan is charging in with Mystletainn. Leaving (presumably) without any knights to defend her would be a poor choice in such a scenario. 

The thing is, though, she doesn't get caught up in the fighting. Rather, she's captured by Manfroy. He warps in, grabs her, and warps out. No one had any reason to anticipate him as a threat here. It's like getting scooped up by a pterodactyl, thousands of miles from Jurassic Park. If she left with an armed escort, perhaps she wouldn't be captured. But as nameless mooks, Manfroy could probably kill them all with little effort, before taking Dierdre.

The limit of this warping power is unclear. He likely could do it in the presence of Sigurd or his army, but doesn't, because he doesn't want to be discovered. There might be something about the home castle preventing him from warping in, but again, it might just be that he doesn't want to risk being discovered. So the only way for Dierdre to avoid being captured by Manfroy, is to never be outside alone. Which is a highly unrealistic expectation - especially in light, again, of Manfroy not yet being a known threat.

In sum, running onto the field of battle, alone, was not smart in light of those defensive stats. But Dierdre's capture was basically inevitable, in light of Manfroy's absurd power. And she can't be held responsible for falling victim to a threat that nobody had any reason to anticipate.

I disagree in this case. Just because the fighting wasn't directly here does not mean that it was perfectly safe. Once you leave the castle, there can be anything that can be dangerous as you travel through. Random bandits could come from anywhere, or spies and the likes. You shouldn't just go out alone when there're battles happening. It's a huge thing to always be wary of in times of war. Leaving all alone without any form of defense for yourself is tantamount to suicide. Deirdre oughta have known this as she traveled with Sigurd. 

Nameless mooks could at least hold Manfroy off long enough for Deirdre to escape. Manfroy specifically waited for when Deirdre went out all alone, which, in itself, shows that he needed Deirdre to be all alone and defenseless. Had she an armed escort, she could have escaped long enough to return to the castle, in which would be fortified and have more troops there to stop Manfroy. Even with all his power, Manfroy wouldn't be foolish enough to go at a fort all by himself. 

Let's not account to the case of "plot warping", as such a case is never used beyond just warping for the sake of plot convenience. 

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4 hours ago, ciphertul said:

You are misunderstanding the difference between bad and terrible, bad simply means negative and that is correct in this case. A mother who dies in child birth is abandoning her child, which is why I said the reason was irrelevant. She cannot physical be there and be involved in her child's life, but again bad does not mean terrible. 

I just can't agree with the notion that a parent dying, due to factors outside of their control, is a morally bad act of abandonment. "Bad" is "less bad" than "terrible", sure, but it's a moral statement regardless. I don't believe Deirdre bears any moral responsibility for her inability to act as a mother to Seliph.

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I disagree in this case. Just because the fighting wasn't directly here does not mean that it was perfectly safe. Once you leave the castle, there can be anything that can be dangerous as you travel through. Random bandits could come from anywhere, or spies and the likes. You shouldn't just go out alone when there're battles happening. It's a huge thing to always be wary of in times of war. Leaving all alone without any form of defense for yourself is tantamount to suicide. Deirdre oughta have known this as she traveled with Sigurd. 

Nameless mooks could at least hold Manfroy off long enough for Deirdre to escape. Manfroy specifically waited for when Deirdre went out all alone, which, in itself, shows that he needed Deirdre to be all alone and defenseless. Had she an armed escort, she could have escaped long enough to return to the castle, in which would be fortified and have more troops there to stop Manfroy. Even with all his power, Manfroy wouldn't be foolish enough to go at a fort all by himself. 

Let's not account to the case of "plot warping", as such a case is never used beyond just warping for the sake of plot convenience. 

So, I've already conceded that leaving the castle alone, in the context of an ongoing battle, was foolish. That said, Deirdere is not necessarily "defenseless" when she does so. Often, she is made so as a result of player choice and foreknowledge. But gameplay-wise, she can keep her Aura tome, as well as any Rings, for self-defense.

The thing is, though, the kidnapping is only tangentially related to the ongoing battle. This timing isn't particularly important to Manfroy - rather, he sees an opportunity, and he takes it. The battle, Sigurd's insistence that his wife stay behind, and Deirdre's concern for her husband's well-being, combine to create a scenario where she's outside and alone. But this is far from the only case where this is possible. A month before this battle occured, Deirdre could have decided to take a walk outside alone (in peacetime), and been captured then. Or it could have happened a month after this map, in Silesse. Of course, Deirdre would want to keep her tomes handy, to defend herself from anticipable threats (i.e. bandits). But a powerful sorceror, who can warp in any time, grab her, warp away, and blank her memory? That's an unanticipable threat. And I don't believe Deirdre can be held morally responsible for the fallout of falling victim to such a threat.

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25 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I just can't agree with the notion that a parent dying, due to factors outside of their control, is a morally bad act of abandonment. "Bad" is "less bad" than "terrible", sure, but it's a moral statement regardless. I don't believe Deirdre bears any moral responsibility for her inability to act as a mother to Seliph.

And it's fine you feel that way, however to me that doesn't absolve her of all responsibility. According to my beliefs a parent who isn't a parent is a bad one. So to me Deirdre is a bad parent.

Edited by ciphertul

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On 4/28/2021 at 3:27 PM, Vince777 said:

She was worried about her lover, out there risking his life. 

She left her child in good care to go get his father back.

Sigurd also left Seliph.
 

Sigurd Got Killed.

Deirdre was alive the whole time and she knew at some point than she Married Sigurd and Had a son with him, also Seliph was in mouth of everyone since all Judgral Sees Seliph as The Second Coming of the messiah Since Sigurd Died in the Battle (BBQ) of Belhalla , it was literally impossible for Deirdre to not recognize her Own Child, literally impossible, she just opted for Forget about her past and Embrace her Fake Life with the Murderer of her Husband, a poor Loser whos never could been able to Get laid with her if wasn't by Manfroy's Dark Magic and Plot Device Brainwashing, As father as Son, his father was a Loser too and got cheated by Deirdre's Mom. And she stayed with that kind of Scum, Deirdre surely must be a really nice girl, for sure.

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First off, Deidre was not technically written to be a terrible mother to Seliph. Second, there was some reasons to why Deirdre isn't meant to be a bad mom for Seliph:

  1. There wasn't any mentioning that Deirdre didn't do bad things to Seliph, Julia even said in Fire Emblem Heroes that her mother was always been so kind.
  2. Deirdre let Shannan to look after Seliph as baby sitting when Manfroy came invading the castle grounds since she probably done it to not let any enemies near the castle and she probably thought she was doing it to protecting her son from harm as well. She didn't know who Manfroy was.
  3. Deirdre was been kidnapped and being brainwashed by Manfroy because he kidnapped her while Sigurd was away. Manfroy was using Deirdre so that she getting to marry Arvis and resurrect Loptous as a recarination by giving birth to a vessel that later becomes Julius. Real bad mothers would leave their child's side, but Deirdre was kidnapped.
  4. Deirdre presumbably got all of her memories erased from Manfroy before she meets Sigurd again since Manfroy was the one responsible to get Deirdre seperated from Sigurd and her son, Seliph.
  5. She couldn't resist from the strong brainwashing control spell from Manfroy when she saw Sigurd. Arvis did not let Deirdre see Sigurd one more time before the Battle of Belhalla started.
  6. It would be risky to leave her other two children behind or take the two with her to find Seliph since Julius was being born as a reincarnation of Loptous. Deirdre did sent Julia far away to safety towards Seliph due to Julius was losing control of himself.
Edited by King Marth 64

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On 4/28/2021 at 8:21 PM, LyonDidNothingWrong said:

she was so thirsty about Sigurd's Jeigan conqueror of castles Dick and she couldn't wait anymore for him, ditching Seliph like shit and forgetting all about of him just because her lust for Sigurd

she just opted for Forget about her past and Embrace her Fake Life with the Murderer of her Husband, a poor Loser whos never could been able to Get laid with her if wasn't by Manfroy's Dark Magic and Plot Device Brainwashing, As father as Son, his father was a Loser too and got cheated by Deirdre's Mom. And she stayed with that kind of Scum, Deirdre surely must be a really nice girl, for sure.

...i'm honestly more amazed about this kind of thread being still open for discussion, considering the language and overall tone used in some previous posts.

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On 4/30/2021 at 10:43 PM, King Marth 64 said:

First off, Deidre was not technically written to be a terrible mother to Seliph. Second, there was some reasons to why Deirdre isn't meant to be a bad mom for Seliph:

  1. There wasn't any mentioning that Deirdre didn't do bad things to Seliph, Julia even said in Fire Emblem Heroes that her mother was always been so kind.
  2. Deirdre let Shannan to look after Seliph as baby sitting when Manfroy came invading the castle grounds since she probably done it to not let any enemies near the castle and she probably thought she was doing it to protecting her son from harm as well. She didn't know who Manfroy was.
  3. Deirdre was been kidnapped and being brainwashed by Manfroy because he kidnapped her while Sigurd was away. Manfroy was using Deirdre so that she getting to marry Arvis and resurrect Loptous as a recarination by giving birth to a vessel that later becomes Julius. Real bad mothers would leave their child's side, but Deirdre was kidnapped.
  4. Deirdre presumbably got all of her memories erased from Manfroy before she meets Sigurd again since Manfroy was the one responsible to get Deirdre seperated from Sigurd and her son, Seliph.
  5. She couldn't resist from the strong brainwashing control spell from Manfroy when she saw Sigurd. Arvis did not let Deirdre see Sigurd one more time before the Battle of Belhalla started.
  6. It would be risky to leave her other two children behind or take the two with her to find Seliph since Julius was being born as a reincarnation of Loptous. Deirdre did sent Julia far away to safety towards Seliph due to Julius was losing control of himself.

Shannan was just a kid, Naivety in a mother counts as being a bad mother, letting your Baby being babysat by a uncapable person (or A kid)  is a really bad trait for any mother out there.

She leaves the castle not for Seliph's sake but for Sigurd's (and Ultimately, her own Sake due to her Lust For Sigurd), Manfroy just showed up and brainwashed her, She was expecting Reaching Sigurd in the castle easily but Manfroy Ruined her Date.

She  learnt about her marriage with sigurd at some point during the time skip but did nothing about it and just raised Julia  and Julius happily with Arvis.

Is stated by the old Forsetti guy than Deirdre was an Expert with Warping (Therefore Julius inherited her Skill with it, he didn't even needed for Warp Staff to get the job Done) She can reach Long distances easily with her Top Tier Warping Skills, so was her decision never making a visit to Seliph.

Deirdre, Overall was a Coward Character and a very Unexperienced Mother, unable to confront her past or deal with the responsibility of parenting, she was unable to move from Teenager Love to Adulthood Married Life and that Sentenced Sigurd to a terrible Fate and Seliph Being Raised without his True Parents.

Edited by LyonDidNothingWrong

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13 hours ago, LyonDidNothingWrong said:

Arvis Surely had MicroPenis and Manfroy served as Inseminator for him Since he couldn't get the job done by himself

WTF bro. This is just unhinged rambling at this point.

12 hours ago, LyonDidNothingWrong said:

Is stated by the old Forsetti guy than Deirdre was an Expert with Warping (Therefore Julius inherited her Skill with it, he didn't even needed for Warp Staff to get the job Done) She can reach Long distances easily with her Top Tier Warping Skills, so was her decision never making a visit to Seliph.

I don't believe the game ever establishes Dierdre having the power to warp herself, though. More likely, Julius acquires this power from the Loptyr Cult, as Manfroy is already a known warper.

12 hours ago, LyonDidNothingWrong said:

She leaves the castle not for Seliph's sake but for Sigurd's (and Ultimately, her own Sake due to her Lust For Sigurd), Manfroy just showed up and brainwashed her, She was expecting Reaching Sigurd in the castle easily but Manfroy Ruined her Date.

Deirdre wasn't "lusting after Sigurd", she was concerned for his safety.

13 hours ago, LyonDidNothingWrong said:

And Maynfroyd owned him in every fucking way, even his Son Taking everything from him was planned by Manfroy, so Arvis pathetically with his last Strenght Gave Tyrfing to Seliph, or in other words, He recognized Sigurd and his Son as Saviors and the ones bearing the superior Genes

Sigurd and Seliph didn't have "superior genes", they just had genes that were compatible with Tyrfing. Arvis was in a compromised position politically, so he gave aid to Seliph, who had the best shot at stopping the Loptyr Cult's villainy.

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My apologies.  I needed to wait for something, and OP was more than happy to deliver.

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