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What Type of Remake Do You Think is Best for FE Games?

Preferred Type of Remake  

45 members have voted

  1. 1. 1. Which type of video game remake do you prefer, just in general:

    • 1-for-1 remake: preserve the original game warts-and-all except updated graphics and maybe a few QoL improvements.
      5
    • Full overhaul: bring everything up to date as it would be if the devs for the original game would've made it if they had had today's tech back then.
      15
    • Something In-Between (elaborate in a reply to this topic).
      9
    • It all depends on the specific game.
      16
  2. 2. 2. Which type of video game remake do you think is best for remaking FE games:

    • 1-for-1 remake: preserve the original game warts-and-all except updated graphics and maybe a few QoL improvements.
      8
    • Full overhaul: bring everything up to date as it would be if the devs for the original game would've made it if they had had today's tech back then.
      15
    • Something In-Between (elaborate in a reply to this topic).
      17
    • It all depends on the specific Fire Emblem game.
      5
  3. 3. 3. Which Fire Emblem Remake do you think was the closest to how an FE remake should be:

    • Shadow Dragon
      4
    • New Mystery of the Emblem
      9
    • Echoes: Shadows of Valentia
      25
    • None of them
      5
    • Depends on the specific FE game being remade
      2


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Video game remakes have come in many different forms, from ones that tried to preserve the original as much as possible, like Ocarina of Time 3D, to remakes where the approach was to give the game a complete overhaul and bring it up to date for a modern audience, such as Final Fantasy 7 Remake. Fire Emblem has had three remakes so far: Shadow Dragon, New Mystery of the Emblem, and Shadows of Valentia. The former two would definitely fall into the "preservation/throwback" type of remake, while Shadows of Valentia is more of a directionless mix between the two philosophies.

What type of video game remake do you prefer, and which one do you think would be best suited for Fire Emblem game remakes going forward?

Edited by vanguard333

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It hurts to say that SoV is the right way to do it... because Gaiden is a really bad game, and it thoroughly carries over even despite the impressive facelift. 

 

But SoV was about as ideal a remake as you can get. They did the best they could with what they had and on the platform they designed for. A good FE game (ie: any other pre-Awakening one) with that kind of love put into it would be spectacular.

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I voted "Other" for FE, but I'm really more like 75% Full Overhaul and 25% 1-to-1. To me, the Other can fit both of those categories. But it ultimately depends on the game. 

 

One of the best quotes about remakes I've heard recently was from RuffledRowlet, a Pokemon YouTuber.* He more-or-less said that "the ideal remake allows for the game we played as children or when we were younger to be realized in a way it only existed in our minds." Or basically, "remakes give us a chance to play the game we imagined playing, not the one we actually played." 

To me, remakes are second chances. They're second chances to smooth out any narrative wrinkles or buggy gameplay features (so long as the bugs are negative) while also adding in necessary QoL updates and adapting more modern features. They should keep the feel, heart, and soul of the original game, but changing the gameplay and looks should be fine. But they're also fine-lines. Remakes can't be TOO faithful to the original, or else nothing new will be added. (Look at the backlash and concern behind Pokemon's Gen 4 remake announcement.) But they can't stray too far from the original either, or else it's not really a remake. 

From what I can tell, the Final Fantasy VII remake is doing a really good job at this. Square Enix is recreating the game from the ground up so that old school players can fully immerse themselves in a world they basically had to imagine due to the gameplay style of previous games (and so that new-school players can fully attach themselves to this classic story). The combat changed with this, but that isn't a bad thing as it's mostly in-line with modern FF games anyways. That doesn't mean there isn't room for innovation either - just because it's a remake doesn't mean that there's no room for new material! 

But what does that all mean for Fire Emblem, especially given the fact that the more forward in the franchise's time we go, the more games will feel "complete" to us?

To me it frankly looks like a lot of changes fans of old-school games won't like.**

It might mean an Avatar in an FE 4 remake, since that's what modern FE games have now, IntSys isn't afraid of putting new characters in remakes (Kris & Katerina and Co, Faye and the Cipher characters), and given how insanely popular Avatars are to the general fanbase. It might mean supports take the place of Lovers Points, even more canon pairings in order to make things match up better with the FE 5 remake; maybe new characters that can be romanced will take the place. 

For a game like FE 6, it may mean an FE 6/7 combination where certain characters have their backstories retooled in order to fit this. It might mean certain characters are added or taken out in order to fit the game, story, or role. It might mean an expanded role for other characters like the Avatar Mark. It might mean that map designs are changed in order to benefit infantry units better, or classes are beefed up or nerfed.

I can't even speak for the Tellius Duology, since in my head, those need a remaster more than a remake. 

 

I probably have more to say on this, but I have someplace to be. I'll come back later if I have more to say. 

 

 

*RR is mostly clickbait and 4Chan "leaks," and this is easily his best video IMO. It goes into depth about what he sees as the main issues of BDSP and Legends: Arceus, and is optimistic about it. 

**I'm not saying I agree or disagree with these theoretical changes, only that they're ones I can see IntSys implementing. 

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2 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It hurts to say that SoV is the right way to do it... because Gaiden is a really bad game, and it thoroughly carries over even despite the impressive facelift. 

 

But SoV was about as ideal a remake as you can get. They did the best they could with what they had and on the platform they designed for. A good FE game (ie: any other pre-Awakening one) with that kind of love put into it would be spectacular.

Interesting. My opinion has long been that SoV was the worst way to do it; the reason for that being that Shadow Dragon, for all its faults, was at least consistent in how the team wanted to remake the game (i.e. keep it retro), and SoV to me seemed like a game where the dev team either didn't know or fundamentally disagreed on what they wanted the remake to do. It struck me as a game where they didn't know if they wanted to go for the preservation approach or the full overhaul, and the result was something weirdly arbitrary and fighting itself in terms of what it chose to leave untouched and what it chose to overhaul; resulting in a game that, to me at least, felt like something less than the sum of its parts. 

I certainly agree that a lot of effort was put into SoV, but it seemed to me like a lot of effort in conflicting directions (or possibly just no direction at all). It's interesting to read basically the opposite opinion.

I can certainly agree that a remake of one of the better FE games with that amount of effort put into it would be spectacular; I would just want to add the caveat that that effort needs to be put in a particular direction.

 

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

From what I can tell, the Final Fantasy VII remake is doing a really good job at this. Square Enix is recreating the game from the ground up so that old school players can fully immerse themselves in a world they basically had to imagine due to the gameplay style of previous games (and so that new-school players can fully attach themselves to this classic story). The combat changed with this, but that isn't a bad thing as it's mostly in-line with modern FF games anyways. That doesn't mean there isn't room for innovation either - just because it's a remake doesn't mean that there's no room for new material! 

I wanted to add in FF7 Remake as an example of the complete overhaul approach, but there's a certain plotline that's been added to the game that's received some controversy because it makes it unclear if the game can really be called a remake. That said, outside of that particular plotline, I agree that the game is a great example of how to do the full-overhaul approach that's meant for bringing in new players while still being something the old players can enjoy.

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  • SD is the worse case of an FE remake, it made a lot of improvements and changes don't get me wrong. Anyone who has played Old Mystery, or FE1 now that it has been made officially available, knows that. Yet, it didn't go far enough, more in the narrative & characters aspects than the gameplay.
  • New Mystery did better, but stumbled on the new story additions and how it handled characterization, which was still too limited.
  • SoV still isn't perfect, because it failed to address its poor map design. People tend to criticize the story additions and changes too that have absolutely no basis in the threadbare narrative narrative of NES Gaiden.

Looking at the FEs in greatest need of remakes...

  • Genealogy of the Holy War- No matter what you do, someone is going to be left unhappy. There is simply no way to please everyone, because of the unique features that define Genealogy of the Holy War. How you address the size of the maps alone will create instant haters and lovers. I give up.
  • Thracia 776 is more reasonable, but still somewhat tricky. Thracia has serious edges fundamental to its design that require careful smoothing to make it appealing to a wide audience. Attempting to add an actual "hard mode" for veterans to this game runs into the issue of how do you make it harder?
  • Binding Blade, and Blazing Blade because it goes together, are much easier games to address. The fundamentals are good and ordinary for FE to the present day, there is no Genealogy jank, nor Thracian fatigue and capturing. All these need in gameplay is better balanced difficulty, better character balance, and implementation of some new forms of complexity, like Skills and Combat Arts.

From a narrative and characterization perspective, I think everyone can agree on what is needed here.:

  • The stories of Genealogy, Thracia, and Binding need to move away from monologues, towards a limited but effective coterie of important characters chatting amongst each other.
  • Genealogy and Thracia need supports to flesh out the rest of the cast, and perhaps more writing somehow.
  • Binding already has supports, but I think its characterization needs another polishing. Already-existing nuggets like IgrenexAstolfo aren't enough I'd say.
  • Villains in all the games need to get more scenes and nuance as well.
  • The world-building needs more everything.
  • And everything needs better presentation.
  • In short- more, more, and more writing!
Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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As much as I think SoV remained too faithful to its source material as far as gameplay is concerned, I can't deny how excellent the art, music, characters, and overall presentation are for the game.

I'd say the ideal remake process for an FE game very much depends on the specific FE game, but I wouldn't be opposed to SoV's approach being applied to other games, albeit with a bit more effort put into changing the game's mechanics in addition to the visual and audio changes.

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Where the ''none of those'' for the 3rd question? All of them were too faithful for my tastes.

I am in the complete overhaul team. I already played the originals and don'T want to just play the same games again but in HD. Even if i loved them, i want the remake experience to be different.

I love FE4 and Thracia, but if all we just get is a new coat of paint that will leave a really really bad taste in my mouth.

Edited by Shrimperor

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SOV is a decent game considering it was a remake of a obscure and even bad game: no plot at all (or a really basic one), almost zero characterisation, bad maps and imbalanced power/items. 

 

Shadows of Valentia style of remake is the best way to go: respecting the base game, but expanding and modernizing it. I think improving gameplay and narrative is both important in a remake. A game nowadays needs both to stand a its own. 

Edited by Mylady

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I feel people who say the three remakes we've had were "Too faithful" really don't understand how different these three were as experiences compared to the originals. Seriously, if someone says SOV is "too faithful" i am quick to assume they have never played Gaiden because my god the experience between the two is night and day.

My take is that any difference a remake makes will create significant changes in the experience already so even something that comes off as a minor change will still mean the experiences between playing the original and the remake will be very different. So it'll already be a vastly different game to begin with, meaning it doesn't really matter.

Edited by Murozaki

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I don't favor the "1-to-1 remake" notion, because I believe a remake has to justify itself with some sort of material change. Ports and graphical remasters are fine, but I consider those to fall short of the "remake" definition. 

But I'm also not a fan of the "full overhaul" definition, because I don't believe that the team doing the remake needs to confine themselves to the intents of the team behind the original game. What's more important is that they're creating a game that's strong in its own right.

As for the best remake - Shadow Dragon will always hold a special place as my first FE game, and New Mystery improved on it in... most regards. But my pick is Echoes, because I consider it to be the strongest individual game of any of the remakes thus far. It combined some of the flavorful eccentricities of Gaiden (promotion system, dungeons, spell lists) with great new mechanics (combat arts, Turnwheel), and brought the best audio/visual presentation the series has seen thus far.

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Honestly what I care most is whether they make a good game. Beyond that it really doesn't matter to me. People talk about the idea of splitting Genealogy of the Holy War up into smaller chapters is pure heresy, but I really wouldn't object to it at all. It'd be a new experience and as long as the game is good, it'll be a good experience. While Genealogy will still be there to play. But a more faithful remake? Hellz to the yeah it'd be great to see those giant maps in 3D. You might find me, and some others, complaining about Shadows of Valentia being too faithful to the original, but that's usually just stuff I have issue with in the gameplay that is just weird and doesn't really help things like Dread Fighter Looping and Nosferatu killing Duma. Super terrain bonuses and magic ignoring terrain and the like are all a-okay with me (though I would have liked classes to have more than one weapon type and axes to be a thing just for the sake of variety).

That being said the more modern a game get the less inclined I am to support the idea of an exact 1:1 remake, as the less it offers as a game. Shadow Dragon being a 1:1 remake with some tweaks slight for gameplay balance is pretty acceptable because the NES Shadow Dragon was a clunky old ass game even ten years ago. The only thing I really feel it required in terms of new content was more side character focus to accommodate preexisting lore. But a 1:1 remake of Binding Blade or Sacred Stones and suddenly it's a case of "Why should I even play this when I own the original? Sure it looks prettier, but that's hardly the most important thing (and given how Three Houses looks, not even guaranteed)". You have to give me something. Bonus chapters or an iron man mode or something to motivate me to play it over a game I've been playing for over a decade.

So, yeah, I request an "It all depends on the Specific Fire Emblem game" option for the third poll XD While there are things I would change in all three of them, I think each remake we had so far did quite a good job at handling the specific game they were charged with remaking.

On 5/1/2021 at 10:33 PM, Use the Falchion said:

 

It might mean an Avatar in an FE 4 remake, since that's what modern FE games have now, IntSys isn't afraid of putting new characters in remakes (Kris & Katerina and Co, Faye and the Cipher characters), and given how insanely popular Avatars are to the general fanbase. It might mean supports take the place of Lovers Points, even more canon pairings in order to make things match up better with the FE 5 remake; maybe new characters that can be romanced will take the place.

 

I doubt they'll canonoize any Genealogy pairings considering they didn't give Ced Forseti in Heroes, despite him being both the most obvious and most significant of the character pairings Thracia used in it's canons. They still sort of half assed it though with vague references to his unnamed father and helping the people, without ever actually saying said father is Lewyn or that he's a prince.

 

Edited by Jotari

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On 5/2/2021 at 8:05 AM, Shrimperor said:

Where the ''none of those'' for the 3rd question? All of them were too faithful for my tastes.

I'll add that now. Sorry that I didn't see this sooner; I recently moved to a new place.

 

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

So, yeah, I request an "It all depends on the Specific Fire Emblem game" option for the third poll XD While there are things I would change in all three of them, I think each remake we had so far did quite a good job at handling the specific game they were charged with remaking.

I'll add that now.

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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Honestly what I care most is whether they make a good game. Beyond that it really doesn't matter to me. People talk about the idea of splitting Genealogy of the Holy War up into smaller chapters is pure heresy, but I really wouldn't object to it at all. It'd be a new experience and as long as the game is good, it'll be a good experience. While Genealogy will still be there to play. But a more faithful remake? Hellz to the yeah it'd be great to see those giant maps in 3D. You might find me, and some others, complaining about Shadows of Valentia being too faithful to the original, but that's usually just stuff I have issue with in the gameplay that is just weird and doesn't really help things like Dread Fighter Looping and Nosferatu killing Duma. Super terrain bonuses and magic ignoring terrain and the like are all a-okay with me (though I would have liked classes to have more than one weapon type and axes to be a thing just for the sake of variety).

It's kind of funny - I've generally leaned toward the "nooo you can't get rid of the big maps, that's a necessary part of Genealogy's identity" side. But on reflection, that's inconsistent with my own standards. I think it's because, unlike the existing remakes (wherein I never played the originals), FE4 is one that I've played and enjoyed. Maybe it's moreso that I want an official localization and release of FE4, than a ground-up remake. Or the best of both worlds - IS could do both, and the remake can take as many liberties as they wish.

As for the second-point, I actually think a game with Echoes-style mechanics (i.e. Forging, Promotions, Combat Arts, Spell Lists), but rounded out somewhat (allow holding two items at once a la 3H, playable Axe users and Dark Mages, better map design), could be a great time. Maybe it could be set on Valentia, between Alm's and Chrom's times, to help bridge the apparent disparity between Valentia and Valm? Or set it somewhere new entirely.

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3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Maybe it's moreso that I want an official localization and release of FE4, than a ground-up remake. Or the best of both worlds - IS could do both, and the remake can take as many liberties as they wish.

I haven't played FE4 (as you and others probably well know), but I definitely agree with your idea. If I was in charge of making an FE 4 remake, I'd have the respective "Seasons of Warefare" edition come with a localized version of the original game as a physical copy. The digital copy would still be available for download, as would a Remake+Original bundle for those who don't want the merch stuff or physical copies. Heck, I hope IntSys does that anyways, maybe as a 25th anniversary and/or a potential teaser for a remake. 

 

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for the second-point, I actually think a game with Echoes-style mechanics (i.e. Forging, Promotions, Combat Arts, Spell Lists), but rounded out somewhat (allow holding two items at once a la 3H, playable Axe users and Dark Mages, better map design), could be a great time. Maybe it could be set on Valentia, between Alm's and Chrom's times, to help bridge the apparent disparity between Valentia and Valm? Or set it somewhere new entirely.

I could see a lot of that being used in a potential Magvel remake. Even dungeon exploring to a degree - what if there were lairs for the monsters that players could explore and clear out? They wouldn't stop monsters from appearing on the overworld, but they'd stop lower level ones at least, making the encounters harder than before. Think of them like weird versions of Pokemon's Gym Badges. 

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13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's kind of funny - I've generally leaned toward the "nooo you can't get rid of the big maps, that's a necessary part of Genealogy's identity" side. But on reflection, that's inconsistent with my own standards. I think it's because, unlike the existing remakes (wherein I never played the originals), FE4 is one that I've played and enjoyed. Maybe it's moreso that I want an official localization and release of FE4, than a ground-up remake. Or the best of both worlds - IS could do both, and the remake can take as many liberties as they wish.

As for the second-point, I actually think a game with Echoes-style mechanics (i.e. Forging, Promotions, Combat Arts, Spell Lists), but rounded out somewhat (allow holding two items at once a la 3H, playable Axe users and Dark Mages, better map design), could be a great time. Maybe it could be set on Valentia, between Alm's and Chrom's times, to help bridge the apparent disparity between Valentia and Valm? Or set it somewhere new entirely.

I would like for Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia to allow the holding of a weapon+item, if only so Rudolf can actually wield the Emperor's Lance (likewise I'd like more than one weapon available so he could actually wield the Falchion! He must have been using SNES dismounting rules to swap over to swords). Giving Celica Beloved Zofia and the Mage Ring would be sweet too for making her feel like a fully realized fighter. Having weapons and items separate would also give a use for the massive pantry of food you gather but never use (course you'd still phase it out in favor of rings and shields eventually, but it'd let food be a viable equip option for at least a little longer than the first half chapter of the game.

16 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I'll add that now. Sorry that I didn't see this sooner; I recently moved to a new place.

 

I'll add that now.

I was kind of joking since such an option makes no logical sense, but it still encapsulates my feelings, so I'm going to vote for it XD

Edited by Jotari

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5 hours ago, Jotari said:

I was kind of joking since such an option makes no logical sense, but it still encapsulates my feelings, so I'm going to vote for it XD

It actually kind-of does make sense if you think about it: "Which of these games comes the closest to how an FE remake should be?" "It all depends on which FE game is being remade" actually makes quite a bit of sense as an answer and an option, especially if your answer to the second question was also "depends on which FE game is being remade". That's the reason I thought that it actually was a good idea to add it.

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I guess "Faithful full overhaul"

I'm not sure how to explain this fully without going super-in depth, but long story short "Official" remakes, with at least some members of the original dev team, AKA: Mafia DE, Tomb Raider Anniversary and Metro 2033 Redux feel like at least a large chunk of their changes, while having some improvements feel more out of these three things than "what we would have done back then."

A : Re-using assets/mechanics from more modern titles that are still on the same engine despite being ill-fitting to the remake or even removing certain mechanics/features entirely simply because the previous installment's engine we're using for the remake lacks those features. (Example, Metro 2033 had optional purchasable suits that changed your stats and broken glass you could step and alert enemies in stealth, 2033 Redux was made on the Last Light Engine which lacked these features, so they're gone, despite 2033's bit of dialogue about not stepping on glass being left in the game.)

B : Almost all of them feel somewhat "Budget", AKA: certain elements, levels and other features are removed more due to the remake getting greenlit with a relatively lower budget or dev time. (TR Anniversary was treated as a quick cash-in by the publisher allegedly and has most level be drastically cut down down, allegedly according to the commentary to just "Make them flow better" but I wonder if the publisher wanting it out quickly was involved or Mafia DE literally having left-over files relating to cut elements from the first game in half-finished states accessible via trainers such as cut weapons and characters.)

C Jumping on ill-fitting modern game design trends. (Regenerating health and rubber band AI in the racing mission in Mafia DE and TR Anniversary having Quick Time Events.)

Or then you have weird situations, like (To my knowledge) FE:Echoes, where the game is highly faithful (apparently, not played Gaiden myself.) but the actual devs are new, same with the Cancelled Core-Design version of the Tomb Raider 1 Remake (Granted, a few TR1 developers were still in Core-Design but we have no idea if any of them were actually involved with the remake as they hadn't been involved with other recent TR titles and we don't have a staff-list for TRAE.), Tomb Raider: Anniversary Edition, which planned to expand on TR1 with extra lore and features while keeping the general game design/mechanics for the most part. (as opposed to cutting most of the stuff out like the Remake we got.)

In my general experience, I'd always prefer a Core-Design TR Remake/FE Echoes-style remake, where it expands on the game but without altering anything that for the most part didn't need to be altered too much  (though, again I admit I haven't played Gaiden much and am merely assuming other people saying it's too faithful are true.) or at least having them be optional new stuff instead of altering/removing pre-existing mechanics.

Really the only Video Game Remake I can think of that most fits "full overhaul" in a "True" (AKA no drastic compromises for any of those big 3 reasons I mentioned earlier) fashion is Resident Evil 1's awesome remake. (And even then, it definitely has moments that were altered, though that was more "moving scares to intentionally unsettle/jump people used to the original game", so that's kinda in the air I guess for what that counts as?.)

While I've not played many "remake eligible" Fe games yet (I guess maybe Elibe games? but even then they'd probably do other title first.), but if say, FE6 was to be remade, I'd probably want to mostly be the same, just add an "Easy" difficulty (Since it kinda gets a bit bad near the end difficulty-wise), the option to have Reinforcements instead of Ambushes and maybe add weapon forging and at most, basic (FE Echoes-style where they don't practically replace your main methods of attack unlike Three Houses.) weapon arts with maybe nerfed enemy staff mages (Since well, they have way better stats than any of your staff users from what I can see, to the point where you can probably call it the AI practically cheating.) with most of the changes going to re-writing the story to mesh better with FE7/give other characters more roles in the story.

Even then simply "Slightly more fair FE6 with enhanced visuals, a handful of new methods of attacks, like adding Unarmed from 3H, Onager and other types of ranged weapons similiar to Ballista and Lilina and a few other characters having more of a role with a re-written story to mesh better with a re-written FE7" would probably be enough for me with it mostly playing almost exactly the same as FE6 for the first half of the game with a re-balanced second half. (I admittingly find the later half of FE6 to kinda feel like your fighting an uphill battle against blatantly unfair odds, like those enemy mages who just happen to have far better stats than any staff user you can have from what I'm aware of.)

Edited by Samz707

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10 hours ago, Samz707 said:

I guess "Faithful full overhaul"

I'm not sure how to explain this fully without going super-in depth, but long story short "Official" remakes, with at least some members of the original dev team, AKA: Mafia DE, Tomb Raider Anniversary and Metro 2033 Redux feel like at least a large chunk of their changes, while having some improvements feel more out of these three things than "what we would have done back then."

A : Re-using assets/mechanics from more modern titles that are still on the same engine despite being ill-fitting to the remake or even removing certain mechanics/features entirely simply because the previous installment's engine we're using for the remake lacks those features. (Example, Metro 2033 had optional purchasable suits that changed your stats and broken glass you could step and alert enemies in stealth, 2033 Redux was made on the Last Light Engine which lacked these features, so they're gone, despite 2033's bit of dialogue about not stepping on glass being left in the game.)

B : Almost all of them feel somewhat "Budget", AKA: certain elements, levels and other features are removed more due to the remake getting greenlit with a relatively lower budget or dev time. (TR Anniversary was treated as a quick cash-in by the publisher allegedly and has most level be drastically cut down down, allegedly according to the commentary to just "Make them flow better" but I wonder if the publisher wanting it out quickly was involved or Mafia DE literally having left-over files relating to cut elements from the first game in half-finished states accessible via trainers such as cut weapons and characters.)

C Jumping on ill-fitting modern game design trends. (Regenerating health and rubber band AI in the racing mission in Mafia DE and TR Anniversary having Quick Time Events.)

Or then you have weird situations, like (To my knowledge) FE:Echoes, where the game is highly faithful (apparently, not played Gaiden myself.) but the actual devs are new, same with the Cancelled Core-Design version of the Tomb Raider 1 Remake (Granted, a few TR1 developers were still in Core-Design but we have no idea if any of them were actually involved with the remake as they hadn't been involved with other recent TR titles and we don't have a staff-list for TRAE.), Tomb Raider: Anniversary Edition, which planned to expand on TR1 with extra lore and features while keeping the general game design/mechanics for the most part. (as opposed to cutting most of the stuff out like the Remake we got.)

In my general experience, I'd always prefer a Core-Design TR Remake/FE Echoes-style remake, where it expands on the game but without altering anything that for the most part didn't need to be altered too much  (though, again I admit I haven't played Gaiden much and am merely assuming other people saying it's too faithful are true.) or at least having them be optional new stuff instead of altering/removing pre-existing mechanics.

Really the only Video Game Remake I can think of that most fits "full overhaul" in a "True" (AKA no drastic compromises for any of those big 3 reasons I mentioned earlier) fashion is Resident Evil 1's awesome remake. (And even then, it definitely has moments that were altered, though that was more "moving scares to intentionally unsettle/jump people used to the original game", so that's kinda in the air I guess for what that counts as?.)

While I've not played many "remake eligible" Fe games yet (I guess maybe Elibe games? but even then they'd probably do other title first.), but if say, FE6 was to be remade, I'd probably want to mostly be the same, just add an "Easy" difficulty (Since it kinda gets a bit bad near the end difficulty-wise), the option to have Reinforcements instead of Ambushes and maybe add weapon forging and at most, basic (FE Echoes-style where they don't practically replace your main methods of attack unlike Three Houses.) weapon arts with maybe nerfed enemy staff mages (Since well, they have way better stats than any of your staff users from what I can see, to the point where you can probably call it the AI practically cheating.) with most of the changes going to re-writing the story to mesh better with FE7/give other characters more roles in the story.

Even then simply "Slightly more fair FE6 with enhanced visuals, a handful of new methods of attacks, like adding Unarmed from 3H, Onager and other types of ranged weapons similiar to Ballista and Lilina and a few other characters having more of a role with a re-written story to mesh better with a re-written FE7" would probably be enough for me with it mostly playing almost exactly the same as FE6 for the first half of the game with a re-balanced second half. (I admittingly find the later half of FE6 to kinda feel like your fighting an uphill battle against blatantly unfair odds, like those enemy mages who just happen to have far better stats than any staff user you can have from what I'm aware of.)

One thing I think was actually a bit of a downgrade between Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia is village exploration. In Gaiden you could fully control Alm and Celica and walk around a village to explore and find things. There was shit all to find generally, usually it's just characters standing there that you have to walk up and talk to, but it genuinely was fun. SHadows of Valentia meanwhile has .pngs standing over a 3D background that you talk to in a menu style. It works, it's functional and it actually has some funny dialogue for examining random things, but I still kind of wish they gave us villages to walk around and explore. I also think it results in a bit of a dissconnect for areas like Mila's temple, where in order to preserve the one thing that was some what difficult to find in a Gaiden village (Nomah), they suddenly swap over to dungeon exploration. And the inverse when you go up Duma's tower in dungeon exploration style but then hit a menu when you encounter Jeddah and he's just standing there.

Now one might cite budgetary reasons for doing this, as exploring through menus would of course cost less effort than making a full 3D village, but I'm not entirely sure that's the case. People have in fact hacked the games so that you can walk around these village sections, but they're only ever moddled from the camera angle that's set up, which indicates to me they never planned to make the villages explorable in any other way. But the kicker is that it really wouldn't be all that hard to finish modelling these villages and making them explorable in game in a natural way. Most of the camera angles give wide shots of the village so you already see most of what's there already. It'd just take a little bit more work and adding collision detection to get them up to standard. And personally I think it's a bit of a shame they didn't. If the game just didn't have dungeon exploration I'd feel less of a dissconnect, but when I can already run around with Alm and Celica, just not in a village, it just feels sorta weird they put a limiter on it when all the ground work has already been laid.

 

Also the final dungeon was way better in Gaiden than Shadows of Valentia. It had all these maps with trap gimmicks and stuff and the three bosses who chase you in the final map are fought throughout and just the design in general was better than Shadows of Valentia's warp tile puzzles that never seem to send me to the place I'm expecting them to. All the while Celica and her team are steadily losing health, forcing you to press on with a real sense of urgency.

Edited by Jotari

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13 hours ago, Jotari said:

 

 

Also the final dungeon was way better in Gaiden than Shadows of Valentia. It had all these maps with trap gimmicks and stuff and the three bosses who chase you in the final map are fought throughout and just the design in general was better than Shadows of Valentia's warp tile puzzles that never seem to send me to the place I'm expecting them to. All the while Celica and her team are steadily losing health, forcing you to press on with a real sense of urgency.

Didn't know about the traps being removed.

Echoes still has differences, but stuff like the map design being mostly the same is way more faithful than most Video Game remakes I have experience with, as well as (I think?) Echoes actually being longer than the original due to Thales and the DLC Chapters, while most remakes in my experience actually end up being shorter due to cutting stuff out.

It's at least more faithful compared to Mafia 1 DE or Tomb Raider Anniversary and seems to well, mostly add, as opposed to most video game remakes in my experience which feel like they at least end up having a 50/50 trade off of adding stuff but also removing stuff.

Edited by Samz707

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23 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Didn't know about the traps being removed.

Echoes still has differences, but stuff like the map design being mostly the same is way more faithful than most Video Game remakes I have experience with, as well as (I think?) Echoes actually being longer than the original due to Thales and the DLC Chapters, while most remakes in my experience actually end up being shorter due to cutting stuff out.

It's at least more faithful compared to Mafia 1 DE or Tomb Raider Anniversary and seems to well, mostly add, as opposed to most video game remakes in my experience which feel like they at least end up having a 50/50 trade off of adding stuff but also removing stuff.

Uh... what remakes do this? I think it's very rare to see on modern "one game" remakes. Like sure, FE3 cut some chapters and units from FE1, but that was only half the game. Whereas, FE11 and FE12 not only retained everything from FE1 and FE3 Book 2, but expanded upon them greatly. And some remakes in other series (i.e. Crash N. Sane Trilogy, Spyro Reignited Trilogy) combine several older games, for an end result that's multiple times as lengthy as the originals.

The only cases that come to mind are storage limitations (i.e. the "Kanto" in Pokemon GSC is shrunk and simplified relative to the Gen I games) or hardware changes (a 3DS remake on the Switch would need to account for only having one screen, and no StreetPass or SpotPass).

One more thing - Echoes gets a lot of attention for its fidelity to Gaiden's map designs, but that's mainly because Gaiden had a reputation for bad maps. Shadow Dragon and New Mystery were, to the best of my knowledge, similarly faithful to the original maps.

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7 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Uh... what remakes do this? I think it's very rare to see on modern "one game" remakes. Like sure, FE3 cut some chapters and units from FE1, but that was only half the game. Whereas, FE11 and FE12 not only retained everything from FE1 and FE3 Book 2, but expanded upon them greatly. And some remakes in other series (i.e. Crash N. Sane Trilogy, Spyro Reignited Trilogy) combine several older games, for an end result that's multiple times as lengthy as the originals.

The only cases that come to mind are storage limitations (i.e. the "Kanto" in Pokemon GSC is shrunk and simplified relative to the Gen I games) or hardware changes (a 3DS remake on the Switch would need to account for only having one screen, and no StreetPass or SpotPass).

One more thing - Echoes gets a lot of attention for its fidelity to Gaiden's map designs, but that's mainly because Gaiden had a reputation for bad maps. Shadow Dragon and New Mystery were, to the best of my knowledge, similarly faithful to the original maps.

I'd actually much rather New Mystery was less faithful to it's original counterpart's map design. Because it annoys me to no end that half the maps in New Mystery are just Shadow Dragon maps. They don't even alter the starting location, even though Marth is usually attacking from the complete opposite direction (with the exception of Soulful Bridge).

Also yeah, I'd be hard pressed to think of a remake that is shorter than it's original game, unless the original game just had horrible grinding induced balance to begin with.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

 

Also yeah, I'd be hard pressed to think of a remake that is shorter than it's original game, unless the original game just had horrible grinding induced balance to begin with.

 

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Uh... what remakes do this? I think it's very rare to see on modern "one game" remakes. Like sure, FE3 cut some chapters and units from FE1, but that was only half the game. Whereas, FE11 and FE12 not only retained everything from FE1 and FE3 Book 2, but expanded upon them greatly. And some remakes in other series (i.e. Crash N. Sane Trilogy, Spyro Reignited Trilogy) combine several older games, for an end result that's multiple times as lengthy as the originals.

 

Resident Evil 3 cuts a large chunk of the original game out. (As well as removing the unlockable Mercenaries mini-game and randomization/choices that added replay Value, making it a "One and Done" game now with almost all of the replayablity gone.)

Tomb Raider Anniversary has almost every level be simplified significantly, with several maze-like environments turned into linear corridors, one level in particular was essentially removed almost entirely and just had it's final small area with a boss fight moved to the end of a previous level, with only 1-2 exceptions, almost every level is shortened down significantly.

Mafia DE also makes the game shorter via trimming down levels significantly, with several wide-open levels, like TR:A becoming straight foward levels.

Jagged Alliance Back in Action (Remake of JA2), while I've not played a ton of, removes a good amount of weapons and side content at least while also significantly simplifying various mechanics and the feature to make your own custom mercenary is also gone entirely.

Admittingly I've not played many video game remakes but most of the one's I've touched cut out significant amounts of content in the process and end up being ultimately shorter.

 

 

Edited by Samz707

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50 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

 

Resident Evil 3 cuts a large chunk of the original game out. (As well as removing the unlockable Mercenaries mini-game and randomization/choices that added replay Value, making it a "One and Done" game now with almost all of the replayablity gone.)

Tomb Raider Anniversary has almost every level be simplified significantly, with several maze-like environments turned into linear corridors, one level in particular was essentially removed almost entirely and just had it's final small area with a boss fight moved to the end of a previous level, with only 1-2 exceptions, almost every level is shortened down significantly.

Mafia DE also makes the game shorter via trimming down levels significantly, with several wide-open levels, like TR:A becoming straight foward levels.

Jagged Alliance Back in Action (Remake of JA2), while I've not played a ton of, removes a good amount of weapons and side content at least while also significantly simplifying various mechanics and the feature to make your own custom mercenary is also gone entirely.

Admittingly I've not played many video game remakes but most of the one's I've touched cut out significant amounts of content in the process and end up being ultimately shorter.

 

 

It sounds like we've just experienced totally different sets of remakes, then. My interpretation is that, while many remakes cut some stuff from the original, most at least make up for it in new content. But that's sourced from little more than my own anecdotal experience, haha.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'd actually much rather New Mystery was less faithful to it's original counterpart's map design. Because it annoys me to no end that half the maps in New Mystery are just Shadow Dragon maps. They don't even alter the starting location, even though Marth is usually attacking from the complete opposite direction (with the exception of Soulful Bridge).

Looking back, FE12 does this more than I had remembered. Granted, I'm generally fine with repeat maps, so long as A) they make narrative sense, and B) offer a different experience each time. Part A is generally satisfied (although you may have a point about the deployment slots), but Part B is a bit harder to achieve when every Sieze map is reimagined as... a Sieze map.

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I would say RE2 and 3 are my favorite kind of remake. That being said most of these remakes are totally new game to me because I never played or even heard of the original games. I would say that these developers sometimes get that casual gamers are on the rise and not all of us wants to spend hours cracking down brain juice just to figure out puzzles and mazes. RE3 has dlc that unlocks all the rewards and it made my gaming experience much better. So I think a remake should follow modern gaming standard if their intention is to get ppl to know the series with a fresh perspective. FF7 is also best example of "how the game would be if it was a new game made with today's technology", I never liked or played Final Fantasy games much but I like what they have done with it, and FF7 is the only one that doesn't bored me out too fast(other than the online game).

My first and favorite FE is still New Mystey. In terms of remake though, I only played OG Gaiden and SoV, never played FE1 & 3.

On 5/3/2021 at 7:12 AM, Murozaki said:

I feel people who say the three remakes we've had were "Too faithful" really don't understand how different these three were as experiences compared to the originals. Seriously, if someone says SOV is "too faithful" i am quick to assume they have never played Gaiden because my god the experience between the two is night and day.

Personally I would say my experience with Gaiden and SoV aren't much different. Gameplay wise, map is still annoying, teleporting witches are annoying, desert maps and all that. Sure there are "few" QoL changes but not nearly enough. Even the enemies spawn is still there and softlocked me in between the cemetery and village in both games. A lot of praise went into visual design and voice acting, but I played the game without music and skipped most of the dialogue because they don't affect gameplay or major plotline at all, and I remembered what must I do to recruit certain missable characters. So gameplay wise it is definitely too faithful, there are differences sure, but the annoying similarities are also there.

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14 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It sounds like we've just experienced totally different sets of remakes, then. My interpretation is that, while many remakes cut some stuff from the original, most at least make up for it in new content. But that's sourced from little more than my own anecdotal experience, haha.

Looking back, FE12 does this more than I had remembered. Granted, I'm generally fine with repeat maps, so long as A) they make narrative sense, and B) offer a different experience each time. Part A is generally satisfied (although you may have a point about the deployment slots), but Part B is a bit harder to achieve when every Sieze map is reimagined as... a Sieze map.

Yeah it's more a creativity thing that anything else that bugs me. I actually really love it when games reuse old areas to bring some kind of cohesion to the world. I actually really loved it on my first playing of New Mystery when I noticed the northern coast of Grust was the same as The Sable Order in Shadow Dragon, because I knew in terms of plot we were going to the Fane of Raman. That's something that delights me. Blazing Blade likewise having the Shrine of Seals only approached from the south east is great too. Even reusing the Bridge chapter Radiant Dawn is cool as it's going from the other direction. And probably my favorite of all, the It's A Trap chapter of The Sacred Stones is almost completely identical to the Ephraim Gaiden chapter from the same game, but it took me years to notice, even though it's canonically the same place, because they shift the entire map over three or four tiles to the east which changes it as an experience completely.

Meanwhile, Soulful Bridge aside, every goddamn chapter in New Mystery is just a Shadow Dragon chapter with different enemies. My standards are strange, but if you reuse 90% of a map and have 10% new content, then that's awesome fanserivce content that helps World Building. But if you reuse 100% then that's just lazy game design giving me something I already had before. I think The Sacred Stones really shows that 10% makes a huge difference, at least to me.

And yes, I'm specificity New Mystery here a lot, that's because I can cut Old Mystery some slack (and I played it second) because it was a SNES game that included a whole entire remake within it that it didn't have to. So some map reusage between the two books is not only understandable but also probably somewhat necessary for memory reasons. But for New Mystery they could have afforded to be a bit more creative with their choices. Imagine if instead of assault Altea from the outside, Gotoh warped Marth and co into the Throne Room directly and you had to play those two chapters in reverse. That would be a cool change to the plot that would make Gotoh more active and would have had an awesome feeling of Marth coming back home all guns blazing (the rules of Archanea Fire Emblem would necessitate some kind of out door throne, but I think they could have been a little less faithful to the every single chapter is a seize thing too).

And Shadows of Valentia reusing maps from the otherside of the continent can fuck right off. I actually like Gaiden's map design far more than most people, but I will not defend the laziness of completely reusing a map in the remake. They absolutely could have given us something new for the three or four times it happened (the biggest offender being the Zeke map).

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