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Fire Emblem Heroes - New Heroes (Forces of Will)


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4 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

True, but that misses/ignores the context that Three Houses itself, and Edelgard by extension, isn't even two years old yet. Edelgard's pace is still much faster due to that.

3H sold more than both Fates' versions *combined,* and then you have to account for most Fates sales being double/triple dippers - the Pokemon effect. It stands to reason that Edelgard, as the lord of the most popular route in the most popular game, would get some preferential treatment. 

 

It also works in her favor that she has 5 canon outfits. That is vastly more than Lyn has. And I hate to break it to you, but "canon" Lyn alts pretty much all look the same. Ooh, this one has a fur scarf on her normal outfit. Really stretching those creative muscles, IS.

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20 minutes ago, Othin said:

I don't understand what that has to do with anything. The time between Fates' release and Heroes' release isn't time that could have been spent on adding alts to anyone.

You're missing the point, and I really can't explain it any better than I already have.

17 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

3H sold more than both Fates' versions *combined,* and then you have to account for most Fates sales being double/triple dippers - the Pokemon effect.

I already addressed this.

18 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It stands to reason that Edelgard, as the lord of the most popular route in the most popular game, would get some preferential treatment. 

I'm not arguing against that.

18 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It also works in her favor that she has 5 canon outfits. That is vastly more than Lyn has. And I hate to break it to you, but "canon" Lyn alts pretty much all look the same. Ooh, this one has a fur scarf on her normal outfit. Really stretching those creative muscles, IS.

Few characters have "canon" alternative outfits to begin with, that really isn't much of a point in Edelgard's favor. Nor does it excuse the ludicrously fast pace of Edelgard's Heroes alt releases.

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I'm almost dissapointed in this banner for being too good. I assumed it'd just be possessed heroes ranting and raving again, but now its the Morgans, Edelgard and Dimitri. All units I like and they even seem capable of forming complete sentences. So my orb recovery plan isn't working out.

Still going to pass on Dimitri though. I already have 3 Dimitri's and this one doesn't do enough to stop him from feeling too similar. I keep liking the 3h cyl heroes less and less. Because they look far too much like their base/legendary forms and even their weapon types are the same. So even if Edelgard and Dimitri have a lot of alts I still don't really feel satisfied with most of them.

Edelgard looks a lot better, but still going for the Morgans on this one.

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Personally, I’d be complaining about the Edelgard spam as well but I’m not because I find it equal parts pointless and unnecessary (and I don’t even like Edelgard as a character either). Besides, we still have yet to get to the true fun part where Edelgard gets spammed on seasonal banners (let alone appear on even one).

As long as there is demand for her (and there very much still is demand going off of the last two A Hero Rises events), IS will keep making them because it gets them easy money.

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Taking another tangent, trying to think of the best counters to f!Edelgard ... I feel like my +10 f!Lyon, hilariously, is probably my best counter and now I'm wondering if I should stick Close Counter on him for the genuine melee lulz since he melts any colorless foes. 

Saw other peoples speculating that Petrine might be good with high Attack and beast effectiveness, but not being able to double is bad.   NFU + Deadeye!Shinon, maybe?

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2 hours ago, Othin said:

I still don't know why you're bringing up Brave Edelgard. She has nothing in common with Fallen Edelgard other than movement type and name.

I bring her up to contrast how inconsistent Edelgard: Hegemon Husk is. Edelgard: Hegemon Husk can be fun and maybe good, but she is far from amazing and worse than Edelgard: Flame Emperor. She is not only relying on Armor Stride to work, she is also relying on transformation to fulfill her niche.

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9 minutes ago, kradeelav said:

Taking another tangent, trying to think of the best counters to f!Edelgard ... I feel like my +10 f!Lyon, hilariously, is probably my best counter and now I'm wondering if I should stick Close Counter on him for the genuine melee lulz since he melts any colorless foes. 

Saw other peoples speculating that Petrine might be good with high Attack and beast effectiveness, but not being able to double is bad.   NFU + Deadeye!Shinon, maybe?

Bear in mind that Fallen Lyon's raven effect only works on ranged foes.

Edited by Othin
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5 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Irrelevant. Heroes launched in February 2017, and Fjorm came out in November 2017. With the planning six months in advance, we know that Fjorm and Legendary Heroes were planned VERY early in Heroes life, multiple months before Braves launched.

That doesn't change the fact that Legendary Lyn literally could not have been added at any point earlier than November 2017.

 

5 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Also irrelevant. They've demonstrated on numerous occasions that they have plenty of characters to pick from, especially if you count OCs (Gustav, for instance). And as we've seen several times, like them or dislike them, the OCs sell.

Of the 28 Legendary Heroes currently released, only 3 of them are original characters (Fjorm, Gunnthra, and Hrid) and only 4 of them are non-"lord" characters (Ryoma, Tiki, Julia, and Lilina).

Like it or not, they are clearly running low on Legendary Hero candidates and will soon be forced to scrape the bottom of the barrel if they want to continue. Furthermore, Three Houses was released adding a whopping 4 new "lord" characters at a point when there were only 8 "lord" characters remaining. With a third of the remaining pool of "lord" characters coming from Three Houses, it's no surprise that the first would be released so soon after Three Houses's release.

 

5 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

The newness of TH doesn't make it any better or excuse it.

On the contrary, the newness of Three Houses is every bit of an excuse to rapidly add more characters from the game to fill up the roster, especially now that we have game modes like Limited Hero Battles and Resonant Battles that force players to build full teams using only units from a single title.

 

2 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

True, but that misses/ignores the context that Three Houses itself, and Edelgard by extension, isn't even two years old yet. Edelgard's pace is still much faster due to that.

No.

  • Edelgard's fifth version was released 21 and a half months after her first version was released.
  • Lyn's fifth version was released 15 months after her first version was released. Lyn's sixth version was released 25 months after her first version.
  • Camilla's fifth version was released 21 months after her first version was released. Camilla's sixth version was released 23 and a half months after her first version.

Three Houses being a new game isn't a reason to slow down releasing new units. It's a reason to speed up releasing new units, and yet Edelgard is clearly behind Lyn's and Camilla's pace in terms of alts.

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@kradeelav I think maybe refined Boey could withstand an assault from Hegemon. His Raven effect isn't conditional like Fallen Lyons, plus he gets a refine that lets him counter Beast enemies, opening his A slot to Triangle Adept or potentially even Sturdy Stance 3 (which could stop Hegemon from triggering the Galeforce skill, which I'm sure people will be giving her)

Henry could be a potential second option, since his tome inflicts an Atk/Res -6 debuff on the enemy and special cooldown -1 (if the enemy is stronger than him, which... let's just say that condition will be easy to meet in this case), and he could also take Close Foil to counterattack Hegemon, but that'd be somewhat expensive fodder to be giving him, and Boey can just take TA3 to operate alright.

Either way, those are both options available at 4*. Easier to build to +10 for the highest level of bulk available to them.

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6 hours ago, Rinco said:

I don't think this Edelgard is as hard to use as @XRay is saying. 

Looking at AR, all the seasons have dragons as Mythics (Sothis, Mila, Naga, Duma/Seiros). On offense you just put Edelgard into one of the ends of the line with the dragon Mythic by her side, she transforms and you can leave her solo for the rest of the turns so she gets Stride on. On defense I can see some ppl leaving her in a corner with WoM on her B slot and Heavy Blade seal + Galeforce special to jump transformed beside a low health ally and simply wreck everything out of nowhere if the offense player fails to finish one of the units in combat.

In Arena you have all the time in the world to just separate her to transform/Stride on the first turn. PvE also seems she works fine.

Is she hard to use? No. She is a lot easier to use compared to most armor units, but that is only because she comes with Armor Stride. However, she is harder to use compared to Edelgard: Adrestian Emperor, who does not have those movement restrictions and requirements.

Being able to Galeforce twice is gimmicky and in my opinion it is not worth it to give up consistent mobility, and she is already worse than Edelgard: Flame Emperor in this regard. And in a super save tank team where mobility is not a big deal and can be offloaded to Flayn, Edelgard: Hegemon Husk does not like Flayn, she cannot make follow-up attacks to secure kills, and her damage reduction is kind of crap.

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37 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

That doesn't change the fact that Legendary Lyn literally could not have been added at any point earlier than November 2017.

 

Of the 28 Legendary Heroes currently released, only 3 of them are original characters (Fjorm, Gunnthra, and Hrid) and only 4 of them are non-"lord" characters (Ryoma, Tiki, Julia, and Lilina).

Like it or not, they are clearly running low on Legendary Hero candidates and will soon be forced to scrape the bottom of the barrel if they want to continue. Furthermore, Three Houses was released adding a whopping 4 new "lord" characters at a point when there were only 8 "lord" characters remaining. With a third of the remaining pool of "lord" characters coming from Three Houses, it's no surprise that the first would be released so soon after Three Houses's release.

 

On the contrary, the newness of Three Houses is every bit of an excuse to rapidly add more characters from the game to fill up the roster, especially now that we have game modes like Limited Hero Battles and Resonant Battles that force players to build full teams using only units from a single title.

 

No.

  • Edelgard's fifth version was released 21 and a half months after her first version was released.
  • Lyn's fifth version was released 15 months after her first version was released. Lyn's sixth version was released 25 months after her first version.
  • Camilla's fifth version was released 21 months after her first version was released. Camilla's sixth version was released 23 and a half months after her first version.

Three Houses being a new game isn't a reason to slow down releasing new units. It's a reason to speed up releasing new units, and yet Edelgard is clearly behind Lyn's and Camilla's pace in terms of alts.

Another unit who got a fifth version within 21 months is Lucina, who got hers at 18 months. Lucina also got her fourth version just 7 months into the game, by far the fastest of any unit so far, and much faster than Dimitri or Edelgard got their fourth versions.

Meanwhile, Chrom took longer for his fifth version, but his fourth version was at about 13 months, approximately the same time as Edelgard took for her fourth version and much faster than Dimitri's fourth.

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Looking over Edelgard's skills, it becomes apparent that she's built so that Byleth (a unit a good number of players have at some point thanks to the Three Houses launch promotion) would appear to be a hard-counter for her -- Byleth's Creator Sword nulls the Wary Fighter, Guard, and Breath effects by default and Byleth comes with Ruptured Sky natively, which would deal a poopload of damage on Edelgard since she's a beast unit.

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1 hour ago, kradeelav said:

Taking another tangent, trying to think of the best counters to f!Edelgard ... I feel like my +10 f!Lyon, hilariously, is probably my best counter and now I'm wondering if I should stick Close Counter on him for the genuine melee lulz since he melts any colorless foes. 

Saw other peoples speculating that Petrine might be good with high Attack and beast effectiveness, but not being able to double is bad.   NFU + Deadeye!Shinon, maybe?

If I don't put any limitations on character availability, I can think of a few counters to her that would be pretty consistent.

Assuming Fallen Edelgard's Spd is extremely low, Duo Idunn should be able to double with her default Vengeful Fighter canceling out Twin-Crest Power's Wary Fighter effect, allowing her second hit to land with the full power of effective damage.

Spring Fir also carries effective damage and has Null Follow-Up on her weapon. With Windsweep, she should be able to pretty safely dispatch Edelgard with the second hit.

Duo Byleth does the same thing as Spring Fir, but with default Ruptured Sky instead of effective damage.

Ishtar does the same thing as Duo Byleth, but without Ruptured Sky by default.

Legendary Lilina is likely also fast enough to run Windsweep against Edelgard, especially if Lilina is running Life and Death to boost her Special damage. However, because of Armored Wall, she might not be able to kill in a single round of combat due to Gifted Magic's damage output likely being unable to disable the effect..

Ophelia might be able to work, but it depends on how much Res Edelgard has. Being able to bring Edelgard to under 25% HP with her Special would be ideal so as to avoid the Atk penalty from Twin-Crest Power and the Special charge rate penalty and damage reduction from Armored Wall.

Both vanilla Byleths can ignore Edelgard's Wary Fighter and Special Fighter and have Ruptured Sky to deal heavy damage on the follow-up. Creator Sword also prevents Bonfire from activating on the counterattack, but Edelgard running a 2-cooldown Special will still get a Special off.

 

33 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I think maybe refined Boey could withstand an assault from Hegemon. His Raven effect isn't conditional like Fallen Lyons, plus he gets a refine that lets him counter Beast enemies, opening his A slot to Triangle Adept or potentially even Sturdy Stance 3 (which could stop Hegemon from triggering the Galeforce skill, which I'm sure people will be giving her)

I'm not too confident in Boey's consistency. Both Triangle Adept and Sturdy Stance will fall victim to any Edelgard running her default Bonfire as Edelgard will have it charged for her second round of combat. Twin-Crest Power also severely hinders Boey's already mediocre damage output as the Atk penalty is multiplied by his weapon triangle advantage.

We'll have to see how much Res Edelgard has, but even with Quick Riposte, I'm not sure Boey will be able to bring down Edelgard in one round of combat.

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Edelgard just happens to have multiple versions of herself that appear in 3H. Hell, every student in 3H has at least two, something that I expect FEH to take full advantage of to make up for the fact that the cast is very small.

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While I'd say Edelgard might have too many alts I don't think this banner would be to blame. Hegemon Edelgard was always the most logical fallen hero alt. Everyone expected this outcome, and an ambitious well intended emperor transforming into a monster is definitely a clear sign of a fallen hero. Aside from the amount of alts Hegemon Edelgard was always less controversial than Hobo Dimitri for a fallen unit since Dimitri fell due to being corrupted by his own psyche rather than being brought low by dark magic, which people argued didn't fit the theme of Fallen Heroes banners.

They all said I was crazy about fallen Dimitri but who's crazy now!? Muahahaha! 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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52 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Aside from the amount of alts Hegemon Edelgard was always less controversial than Hobo Dimitri for a fallen unit since Dimitri fell due to being corrupted by his own psyche rather than being brought low by dark magic, which people argued didn't fit the theme of Fallen Heroes banners.

Dimitri isn’t even the most ill fitting character for this theme. That would go to Ashnard on the grounds that Ashnard was never a good person (let alone a hero) at any point.

Even Berkut has some good qualities that were not displayed well at all though, but not Ashnard. That guy was always an ax-crazy blood knight and social Darwinist.

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So... Nintendo posted this video about the Fallen Heroes:

From it, we have the stats before the update:

Spoiler

Fallen Edelgard has 45 HP, 42 Atk, 14 Spd, 44 Def and 39 Res.
Fallen Dimitri has 40 HP, 42 Atk, 40 Spd, 38 Def and 17 Res.
Fallen Male Morgan has 38 HP, 37 Atk, 17 Spd, 35 Def and 38 Res.
Fallen Female Morgan has 40 HP, 39 Atk, 17 Spd, 41 Def and 35 Res.

And we have the first look at Fallen Orson's art:

Spoiler

dGyXMl5.png

 

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14 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Dimitri isn’t even the most ill fitting character for this theme. That would go to Ashnard on the grounds that Ashnard was never a good person (let alone a hero) at any point.

Even Berkut has some good qualities that were not displayed well at all though, but not Ashnard. That guy was always an ax-crazy blood knight and social Darwinist.

I feel like the idea of "Fallen Heroes" is just basically characters who, regardless of what their actual alignment and values are, have been driven mad by some power or are outright being possessed.

By that definition, Dimitri and Orson would not really fit with the theme, I guess. And the Morgans too, I guess, since they were serving Grima of their own free will in the Future Past DLC. Ike was a literal "what if", still not sure if that was a good call or not. I don't know, I generally hate this theme.

Edited by Sunwoo
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Orson is indeed a lance cav. Quick, act surprised everyone!

9 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I feel like the idea of "Fallen Heroes" is just basically characters who, regardless of what their actual alignment and values are, have been driven mad by some power or are outright being possessed.

Ashnard still wouldn't fit under that definition, because he was already crazy well before touching the medallion. All the medallion did was make him even stronger than he already was, while Ashnard was still very much in full control of his actions unlike Greil.

In the script, Ike even explicitly notes that Ashnard is still sane after touching the medallion.

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1 minute ago, Tybrosion said:

Orson is indeed a lance cav. Quick, act surprised everyone!

Ashnard still wouldn't fit under that definition, because he was already crazy well before touching the medallion. All the medallion did was make him even stronger than he already was, while Ashnard was still very much in full control of his actions unlike Greil.

In the script, Ike even explicitly notes that Ashnard is still sane after touching the medallion.

I think one could split hairs and say that Ashnard's sole qualification for this banner is that his final boss form has a similar "evil flames" effect (I think) and that he's still channeling a power that WOULD drive him insane if he weren't already fucking insane. Just ... it's not great justification, but better than certain others.

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23 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Dimitri isn’t even the most ill fitting character for this theme. That would go to Ashnard on the grounds that Ashnard was never a good person (let alone a hero) at any point.

1 minute ago, Tybrosion said:

Ashnard still wouldn't fit under that definition, because he was already crazy well before touching the medallion. All the medallion did was make him even stronger than he already was, while Ashnard was still very much in full control of his actions unlike Greil.

Once again, the internal name for this theme is "dark", which is vague enough to include a lot of different situations.

Ashnard is still under the influence of an outside not-so-positive force. There is no requirement for a character to have been previously "not fallen" nor is there a requirement for their "fallen" version to have lost their sanity in any way.

Anyone can argue that a rose is not a flower if they pick an incorrect definition of "flower" that doesn't include roses.

 

22 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

From it, we have the stats before the update:

It looks like any of the medium-Spd armors with Quick Riposte-type skills will have no trouble doubling Edelgard, then.

Her 39 Res is also low enough that without skills or support to boost it, you can probably take her down with an AoE Special, which is reassuring.

 

22 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

And we have the first look at Fallen Orson's art:

Orson's art is, as expected of this banner theme, absolutely top notch.

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Part of me wants Orson to carry Monica around for his sprite. It would be more dignified to have her on the horse, but the main thing is that she accompanies him in some way.

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5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

That doesn't change the fact that Legendary Lyn literally could not have been added at any point earlier than November 2017.

And it's still irrelevant to the point.

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Of the 28 Legendary Heroes currently released, only 3 of them are original characters (Fjorm, Gunnthra, and Hrid) and only 4 of them are non-"lord" characters (Ryoma, Tiki, Julia, and Lilina).

Like it or not, they are clearly running low on Legendary Hero candidates and will soon be forced to scrape the bottom of the barrel if they want to continue. Furthermore, Three Houses was released adding a whopping 4 new "lord" characters at a point when there were only 8 "lord" characters remaining. With a third of the remaining pool of "lord" characters coming from Three Houses, it's no surprise that the first would be released so soon after Three Houses's release.

They are most certainly, clearly not running low on Legendary candidates. They've already demonstrated several times who they have in their top considerations, and of that pool, there's plenty.

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

On the contrary, the newness of Three Houses is every bit of an excuse to rapidly add more characters from the game to fill up the roster, especially now that we have game modes like Limited Hero Battles and Resonant Battles that force players to build full teams using only units from a single title.

And I didn't say otherwise. I have no issue with Three Houses characters coming at the pace they are. It's when it's a singular character that it becomes an issue.

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

No.

  • Edelgard's fifth version was released 21 and a half months after her first version was released.
  • Lyn's fifth version was released 15 months after her first version was released. Lyn's sixth version was released 25 months after her first version.
  • Camilla's fifth version was released 21 months after her first version was released. Camilla's sixth version was released 23 and a half months after her first version.

Three Houses being a new game isn't a reason to slow down releasing new units. It's a reason to speed up releasing new units, and yet Edelgard is clearly behind Lyn's and Camilla's pace in terms of alts.

Yes.

  • You're ignoring the point, again.
  • You're ignoring the point, again.
  • You're ignoring the point, again.

Not once did I say that Three Houses being a new game was a reason to slow down new TH characters, only a large flow of the same character. Edelgard is clearly way ahead of Lyn's and Camilla's paces in terms of alts.

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