Fire Emblem Heroes - New Heroes (Forces of Will)

[Othin]

Personally my biggest priority is avoiding redundancy. So I think a single character getting a bunch of regular seasonals is silly and Dimitri's legendary version feels a bit redundant, but I don't mind Edelgard's alts, Brave Camilla, or Ninja Lyn.

[Some Jerk]

https://streamable.com/ikavka

(source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8hHfyzYAN0 )

Edited May 7, 2021 by Some Jerk

[Sayyyaka]

31 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

But we do need more canon or semi-canon tome users. Ranged armors are extremely rare and exclusive to seasonals. How is that healthy or good?

They could just add Reptor or Gen 2 Arvis...but I know IS are cowards.  Hell, Vigarde could use Gleipnir because why not.  In fact Vigarde himself has Fallen potential but Fallen banners aren't allowed to be remotely interesting. 🙂

[Florete]

4 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

One of them, the Flame Emperor, is also justifiable as "not Edelgard." For the purposes of Three Houses, that character has their own role in the story until they don't. A Heroes player who hasn't played Three Houses doesn't know that the character is Edelgard until Heroes arbitrarily decides to spoil the shit out of it later (and that's a far bigger issue than "muh character doesn't have enough alts.")

 

Heroes has already spoiled that, lol. Legendary Edelgard's title is "Flame Emperor."

[Fire Emblem Fan]

3 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Your "addressing" of such points, at best, amounts to "that's irrelevant" or "that doesn't matter" without any sound reasoning as to why.

This is absolutely, blatantly not true. I've made lengthy reasonings (and sound ones)  behind each of my statements. To specifically re-address your a statement about voting for Brave Edelgard:

On 5/5/2021 at 12:37 AM, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Brave was unavoidable, but Flame Emperor and Legendary? There was no reason that Flame Emperor couldn't have been someone else, like Thales, and there was no reason they couldn't have pushed Legendary back a little bit. Three Houses itself came out in July 2019, and banners in Heroes are planned approximately six months in advance; since Legendary came out in April 2020, that means they had to have started planning her in back in October, only three months after TH released and before any CYL 2020 voting started. TH was a big hit and yeah, they'd wanna cash in, but even so, that's a really short amount of time. Not to mention that Flame Emperor came out a month before Legendary, so they already had THREE Edelgards planned (regular, Flame Emperor, and Legendary) back-to-back-to-back right when TH launched.

I have abso-damn-lutely put sound thought and reasoning into each and every one of my points. The only, ONLY thing I called irrelevant were things that didn't really have anything to do with this, and only in one single post.

"Your "addressing" of such points, at best, amounts to "that's irrelevant" or "that doesn't matter" without any sound reasoning as to why." Is shit. Absolute shit.

3 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Why is the Flame Emperor not a valid separate entity? Are people who consider YTiki and ATiki separate characters unjustified? Should Zelgius never appear in his red armor?

I've always maintained, on multiple occasions, that I do consider ATiki and YTiki the same, same with Zelgius. It's the same character. They're alts.

3 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

You can't just say "lol no"

And I haven't.

3 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It just makes it look like you hate Edelgard.

I don't really have strong opinions about her, I'm pretty neutral on her. Arguing an excess of alts does not equal hate of a character.

[Fabulously Olivier]

19 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

This is absolutely, blatantly not true. I've made lengthy reasonings (and sound ones)  behind each of my statements. To specifically re-address your a statement about voting for Brave Edelgard:

I have abso-damn-lutely put sound thought and reasoning into each and every one of my points. The only, ONLY thing I called irrelevant were things that didn't really have anything to do with this, and only in one single post.

"Your "addressing" of such points, at best, amounts to "that's irrelevant" or "that doesn't matter" without any sound reasoning as to why." Is shit. Absolute shit.

I've always maintained, on multiple occasions, that I do consider ATiki and YTiki the same, same with Zelgius. It's the same character. They're alts.

And I haven't.

I don't really have strong opinions about her, I'm pretty neutral on her. Arguing an excess of alts does not equal hate of a character.

Okay, here's the thing. Knowing that the character has a Brave coming does not suddenly disqualify them from a legendary. Would you argue, for example, that Legendary Lyn should be revoked because Brave Lyn was a thing? What of her many other alts? Is Resplendent Lyn also an alt added to her pile of alts?

 

And to that end, why does the "rate" matter? Quantity is still a more important factor than rate, and Edelgard is not yet in that "too many" category compared to others.

 

You maintain that YTiki and ATiki are the same character. It's great to have a consistent platform, and I respect that, but others don't agree, and that's where the issue is. I can certainly say I prefer ATiki to YTiki.

 

This isn't a conversation that particularly interests me though. If my own "consistent platform" were the basis for what should and should not happen in this game, the *only* alts would be canon alts, Brave alts, and what-ifs like Edelgard has gotten. We would have way more actual characters in general, half of Tellius wouldn't be missing, and your Lyn may just have say... her Spotpass version or some truly creative alts in general. But my consistent view isn't what the game is, and it's not what some others would want.

 

21 minutes ago, Florete said:

Heroes has already spoiled that, lol. Legendary Edelgard's title is "Flame Emperor."

My point precisely. It did happen after the GHB Flame Emperor and it really did ruin things.

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Once again, that isn't what I was saying, and you know it. Now you're just being an ass, and that has no place here. I've already addressed this, multiple times, you just keep asking me to repeat and re-word myself. It isn't a gut feeling, which you also damn well know, and you trying to claim it is doesn't make it so.

You're acting like we're discussing quantum physics or something. Seriously, chill out.

You insist that the fact that Edelgard is a brand new character has some bearing on how you're measuring "pace", but that means that you're putting some value on the amount of time a character has existed before Heroes was released. Because "pace" is something that can be calculated mathematically, I want to know how you propose to value that time in those calculations, and without something of the sort, it will be no better than a gut feeling.

Those questions I asked you were not rhetorical, and I apologize if they sounded that way. Answering them or explaining why they are irrelevant would at least further the discussion. Calling me an ass for asking questions to clarify your argument does not.

 

@Parrhesia @Integrity If it sounded like I'm angry, I apologize. My questions were not rhetorical, and I'm not sure there was a way to soften my tone without adding unnecessary fluff to my post that could be used as fuel for a tangent.

 

2 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

But we do need more canon or semi-canon tome users. Ranged armors are extremely rare and exclusive to seasonals. How is that healthy or good?

It doesn't help that almost all of the canon armored ranged units are wrinkly old geezers, like Reptor, Arvis, and Xavier.

It also doesn't help that canon armored tome users are pretty much just a Jugdral thing, and canon armored bow users are just Jugdral and the Akaneia remakes.

[Integrity]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

@Integrity

no worries b0ss i'll let you know pretty directly if you're being bad

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You insist that the fact that Edelgard is a brand new character has some bearing on how you're measuring "pace", but that means that you're putting some value on the amount of time a character has existed before Heroes was released. Because "pace" is something that can be calculated mathematically, I want to know how you propose to value that time in those calculations, and without something of the sort, it will be no better than a gut feeling.

Those questions I asked you were not rhetorical, and I apologize if they sounded that way. Answering them or explaining why they are irrelevant would at least further the discussion. Calling me an ass for asking questions to clarify your argument does not.

 

@Parrhesia @Integrity If it sounded like I'm angry, I apologize. My questions were not rhetorical, and I'm not sure there was a way to soften my tone without adding unnecessary fluff to my post that could be used as fuel for a tangent.

 

It doesn't help that almost all of the canon armored ranged units are wrinkly old geezers, like Reptor, Arvis, and Xavier.

It also doesn't help that canon armored tome users are pretty much just a Jugdral thing, and canon armored bow users are just Jugdral and the Akaneia remakes.

It really is a shame, and 3H had all of the opportunities in the world to fix it with its new class system but explicitly chose not to.

[Tybrosion]

25 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It really is a shame, and 3H had all of the opportunities in the world to fix it with its new class system but explicitly chose not to.

Armored Lord and Emperor not being allowed to use magic was one of the biggest WTFs in that entire game. Not only does Edelgard have a raw magic growth of 45 (ties Linhardt's, is 5 higher than Dorothea's), but Armored Lord and Emperor also buff Edelgard's magic growth (by 5 and 10 respectively).

But, neither class gives her access to magic because reasons. Maybe if Edelgard's unique classes at least gave her that, then everybody wouldn't have dumped them immediately for Wyvern Rider & Wyvern Lord.

[XRay]

"FACING YOU... I grow weak."

Aw. I want to give FOW!Edelgard a big hug. Her quote is tugging my heartstrings. Poor girl went through a lot. She should be saying it to Byleth though, although I guess all the avatars share same essence or something, so maybe she is having a Lyn moment in Awakening where she mistakens the player for Mark.

Edited May 7, 2021 by XRay

[Sunwoo]

Having more lords who canonically use some sort of magic as their "main" canon weapon would be cool. Micaiah is the only lord who's locked purely to magic (although it was nice that regular and legendary Celica used magic). Could we get a male non-avatar lord character whose main weapon is a tome next time?

[Tybrosion]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

She should be saying it to Byleth though

That actually is what she says to Byleth if you have Byleth attack her in Azure Moon's final map.

In fact, that's Edelgard only unique battle dialogue in that map as far as I know.

[Etrurian emperor]

Edelgard has too many alts but its somewhat more tolerable because its not just the devs having a heavy bias for Edelgard. Its certainly part of it but not the whole story.

The thing about Edelgard is that she has multiple versions of her that are all very relevant to Three Houses and merit inclusion. Student Edelgard was always going to make it into the game, Emperor Edelgard was always going to make it into the game and Hegemon Edelgard was always among one of the likeliest Fallen Heroes candidates.  And the boring Brave Edelgard was selected by the fans so on that front IS is pretty blameless. You can certainly make a case of the Flame Emperor being too much but all the other versions were always going to make it into Heroes. Edelgard was always going to have at least four versions of her running around and while the phase might be a bit too quick the situation was just inevitable. 

Cases such as Camilla and Lyn are a bit different due to their alts mostly being seasonals. You really can't get around adding Emperor Edelgard when adding Three Houses characters but seasonals can draw from a much larger pool of characters. Summer Lyn randomly being among Roy's friends was IS choosing to include Lyn over Roy, Camilla's heavy presence in the seasonals was IS choosing to pick Camilla over other characters. A lot of Edelgards alt were set in stone from the very beginning while with seasonals there were other options IS could have taken. 

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

But we do need more canon or semi-canon tome users. Ranged armors are extremely rare and exclusive to seasonals. How is that healthy or good?

Well I'd argue it's not. Absolutely we should have more armoured tome and bow users. I've been wanting Emperor Alvis and Xavier forever on that basis. And Morgan as a character who's basic class is "Anything the hell you want" I think could have gotten away with something like that even though there are no armoured mages in Awakening.

8 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

This wouldn’t be as much of a problem if they made Miranda and/or Azelle a tome cav, but IS passed on that opportunity twice.

That said, we do have seven red tome cavs now compared to the just two, because Leo is so shit he almost shouldn’t count three we had prior to Sigurd + Deirdre though too bad all four of the newer ones are limited time units.

Don't forget Marianne too, the charactr actually associated with animals in Three Houses.

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Edelgard has too many alts but its somewhat more tolerable because its not just the devs having a heavy bias for Edelgard. Its certainly part of it but not the whole story.

The thing about Edelgard is that she has multiple versions of her that are all very relevant to Three Houses and merit inclusion. Student Edelgard was always going to make it into the game, Emperor Edelgard was always going to make it into the game and Hegemon Edelgard was always among one of the likeliest Fallen Heroes candidates.  And the boring Brave Edelgard was selected by the fans so on that front IS is pretty blameless. You can certainly make a case of the Flame Emperor being too much but all the other versions were always going to make it into Heroes. Edelgard was always going to have at least four versions of her running around and while the phase might be a bit too quick the situation was just inevitable. 

Cases such as Camilla and Lyn are a bit different due to their alts mostly being seasonals. You really can't get around adding Emperor Edelgard when adding Three Houses characters but seasonals can draw from a much larger pool of characters. Summer Lyn randomly being among Roy's friends was IS choosing to include Lyn over Roy, Camilla's heavy presence in the seasonals was IS choosing to pick Camilla over other characters. A lot of Edelgards alt were set in stone from the very beginning while with seasonals there were other options IS could have taken. 

So I guess I'll weigh in on this whole Edelgard conversation and say that I agree completely with this. I feel Edelgard for a spam of alts is much less egregious than the likes of Lyn or Camilla, or even Tiki. All of Edelgard's alts were obvious and expected to get into the game at some point. All that being said, I can understand that people are inundated with Edelgard (and Dimitri) with them getting so many alts in such a short time. So while Hegemon Edelgard was pretty much guaranteed to get into the game at some point (because come on, she's a final boss for crying out loud, she has to get into the game, but don't tell Medeus that), it didn't really have to be this year. I think they easily could have held off on Edelgard and Dimitri until next year's fallen banner. And after having a break from them for such a length of time, I think they could have felt more "special" to show up in 2022. Though I suppose IS's methodology is to strike while the iron is hot and the characters are relevant, which historically has worked for them despite the vocal minority here not liking it.

Still though I'm quite happy we got Hegemon Edelgard (Boar Dimitri a little less so, I felt they could have used that for his Brave Incarnation, still though more lance infantry is always appreciated even if it makes him feel like the same goddamn unit three times over), mainly because they actually have made her a beast unit. Makes me really hopeful we'll see Beast Dedue for next years Fallen Banner. That's something I want a lot for not readily discernible reason.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Jotari

[Kaden]

On 5/6/2021 at 7:15 AM, Fabulously Olivier said:

  Hide contents

Is it Dull Atk? I read that as Dull Close & Dull Far with a social distancing requirement.

 

Anyway, an Orson project is difficult to justify when I have a +10 Berkut, but I am still considering it as a SS fan.

 

I'm going to guess you got it by now, but...

Spoiler

I wrote Dull All not Dull Atk. I don't think there is an official term for it since we only have Dull Close for neutralizing melee foe's bonuses, Dull Ranged for ranged foes, and Lulls for neutralizing and debuffing two stats. Dull All kind of works.

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

"FACING YOU... I grow weak."

Aw. I want to give FOW!Edelgard a big hug. Her quote is tugging my heartstrings. Poor girl went through a lot. She should be saying it to Byleth though, although I guess all the avatars share same essence or something, so maybe she is having a Lyn moment in Awakening where she mistakens the player for Mark.

Would you like to hug her regular self or her big self?

A twisted view I have for why she says that to the summoner instead of Byleth is how it's implied that summoned heroes are thralls to the summoner. They can insult, threaten, and even resist the summoner as much as they want, but they still serve or follow the summoner. For a person with such conviction, Edelgard would want to do everything she can for what she believes is right for Fodlan and only Fodlan. Nowhere and nothing else matters, but when she faces the summoner, not even she at the point of her life where she cast aside everything can defy her status as a summoned hero. A servant or a slave, she and the other summoned heroes are bound to whoever summoned them. Facing us, they become docile, tamed by a contract they had no say in. Some are aware of it and lash out while others resign themselves to their fates. Others don't and gladly join the cause. Those you could say are fortunate as they can serve blissfully unaware of their situation. Or perhaps they are the most unfortunate for not knowing what compels them to blindly follow orders. And then you have those who revel in being able to fight again. Mortals, gods, children, and even the dead, they are simply lapdogs of the summoner.

Or we could not entertain dark ideas and that it's a moment of weakness for Edelgard in general. Against her enemies, she can stand tall with her beliefs, but to a friend, to the people she fights for, or a stranger who has no part in her battle, could she let them see what she became? Could Edelgard show her face, show how far she has gone, and show that she essentially became a monster while maintaining her stance and try to convince them that she did it for them and what is best for them? She's done it for so long, but even still, everyone has their doubts. The mask cracks and we see someone asking: "After all of this, am I still doing the right thing?"

[XRay]

39 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Would you like to hug her regular self or her big self?

I would hug both and give her plenty of head pats. She needs to take a day off and indulge in laziness and child's play.

40 minutes ago, Kaden said:

A twisted view I have for why she says that to the summoner instead of Byleth is how it's implied that summoned heroes are thralls to the summoner. They can insult, threaten, and even resist the summoner as much as they want, but they still serve or follow the summoner. For a person with such conviction, Edelgard would want to do everything she can for what she believes is right for Fodlan and only Fodlan. Nowhere and nothing else matters, but when she faces the summoner, not even she at the point of her life where she cast aside everything can defy her status as a summoned hero. A servant or a slave, she and the other summoned heroes are bound to whoever summoned them. Facing us, they become docile, tamed by a contract they had no say in. Some are aware of it and lash out while others resign themselves to their fates. Others don't and gladly join the cause. Those you could say are fortunate as they can serve blissfully unaware of their situation. Or perhaps they are the most unfortunate for not knowing what compels them to blindly follow orders. And then you have those who revel in being able to fight again. Mortals, gods, children, and even the dead, they are simply lapdogs of the summoner.

Maybe we are the ultimate big bad evil guy in the end. Who knew Kiran is the final antagonist?

42 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Or we could not entertain dark ideas and that it's a moment of weakness for Edelgard in general. Against her enemies, she can stand tall with her beliefs, but to a friend, to the people she fights for, or a stranger who has no part in her battle, could she let them see what she became? Could Edelgard show her face, show how far she has gone, and show that she essentially became a monster while maintaining her stance and try to convince them that she did it for them and what is best for them? She's done it for so long, but even still, everyone has their doubts. The mask cracks and we see someone asking: "After all of this, am I still doing the right thing?"

I think that is what she is going through. There is that lingering spark of humanity inside her heart, and given the right support, even fallen angel like her is redeemable.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

7 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Okay, here's the thing. Knowing that the character has a Brave coming does not suddenly disqualify them from a legendary. Would you argue, for example, that Legendary Lyn should be revoked because Brave Lyn was a thing? What of her many other alts? Is Resplendent Lyn also an alt added to her pile of alts?

Revoked? No. But I have on multiple occasions questioned the timing of her release (and her unit/color type, but that's another story). Legendary Lyn could and probably should have been pushed back. As for her other alts, I have also questioned a couple of them, specifically her Bride alt and her Summer alt. Her Bride alt looks gorgeous, but honestly, I think I might have made it Eirika instead, because it's still so odd to me that the character to introduce the class still doesn't have a Bride alt. (That then puts Eirika even further into the "too many alts" phase, though.) As for her Summer alt, my exact words when she was revealed were "Why is she here?" They wanna capitalize on summer bikinis with their popular characters, I get it, but that banner really probably should have been entirely FE6. Lyn is my favorite character, but I definitely have vocalized some issues with her alts, and I hold to those opinions. This isn't something I've only felt with Edelgard, I feel it with my favorites, too.

I've never considered Resplendents alts, they're the same unit in the same unit slot.

7 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

This isn't a conversation that particularly interests me though. If my own "consistent platform" were the basis for what should and should not happen in this game, the *only* alts would be canon alts, Brave alts, and what-ifs like Edelgard has gotten. We would have way more actual characters in general, half of Tellius wouldn't be missing, and your Lyn may just have say... her Spotpass version or some truly creative alts in general. But my consistent view isn't what the game is, and it's not what some others would want.

Lyn's regular, her Spotpass, Brave, and Legendary. That's a pretty good batch. Only alts I'd really hate to lose are Valentine and Ninja.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You insist that the fact that Edelgard is a brand new character has some bearing on how you're measuring "pace", but that means that you're putting some value on the amount of time a character has existed before Heroes was released. Because "pace" is something that can be calculated mathematically, I want to know how you propose to value that time in those calculations, and without something of the sort, it will be no better than a gut feeling.

Edelgard being a new character does have bearing on this, but here's the thing about the math. Pace isn't always an exact mathematical measurement, because there's some variables that certain characters have that others do not, and that changes things to the point where the math cannot be exact.

The newness of a post-Heroes character is not a variable that applies to Lyn, or Marth, or Camilla, or Ike. This is a variable that's entirely unique to characters like Edelgard, Faye, Conrad, and Dimitri, characters that didn't exist until after Heroes was a thing. That changes things, and it changes their pace versus the pace of pre-Heroes characters. It factors in when the timing of alts for someone like Edelgard is compared to the timing of alts for someone like Camilla, and it changes it in a way that is not 100% exact. Another variable that multiple people have pointed out is the fact that the majority of the community voted for the Brave versions of Lyn, Edelgard, and the like, and that's another variable that alters things.

The pace here in Heroes as it relates to the timing of alt releases is not and cannot be objective exact math, no matter how many ways anyone tries to spin it. It is also not a gut feeling, though. Adding some logic to these variables makes it much more than a gut feeling, there's sound thought and reasoning behind my conclusions on the issue of pace even if it isn't an exact mathematical equation.

It's not a gut feeling, and there is absolutely value in my statements on this issue.

[Integrity]

1 hour ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

It's not a gut feeling, and there is absolutely value in my statements on this issue.

i'm not gonna refute or engage with a single one of your arguments except to say that the shit you're spouting is nowhere near as concrete and objective as you think it is, and people are not going to engage it on the level that you think they should.

 

please keep this in mind.

[Baldrick]

My 2c... Heroes is a the “age” of a character isn’t even objective. Sure, Marth is the first protagonist, but not everyone started with FE1. If someone’s first game was Three Houses, then ftpov Edelgard is the “oldest” character! The only logical metric is to disregard a character’s “age” entirely.

[Integrity]

1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

My 2c... Heroes is a the “age” of a character isn’t even objective. Sure, Marth is the first protagonist, but not everyone started with FE1. If someone’s first game was Three Houses, then ftpov Edelgard is the “oldest” character! The only logical metric is to disregard a character’s “age” entirely.

my first fire emblem was super smash bros melee, as i think was the majority of the old guard if they're being honest and not grandstanding for internet points

[Fire Emblem Fan]

24 minutes ago, Integrity said:

i'm not gonna refute or engage with a single one of your arguments except to say that the shit you're spouting is nowhere near as concrete and objective as you think it is, and people are not going to engage it on the level that you think they should.

It's certainly not "shit" and it's no less objective/concrete than any counterargument I've received, and I really didn't expect any engagement at the start of this thread, at any level.

[Integrity]

3 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

It's certainly not "shit" and it's no less objective/concrete than any counterargument I've received, and I really didn't expect any engagement at the start of this thread, at any level.

if you didn't expect anyone to engage with you, why did you post into the void, babe

 

EDIT: changing 'argue' for 'engage' so someone doesn't just quote my shit and go 'oh op said engagement not argument !!!'

Edited May 8, 2021 by Integrity

[Fire Emblem Fan]

9 minutes ago, Integrity said:

if you didn't expect anyone to engage with you, why did you post into the void, babe

Because this (my original post)

On 5/4/2021 at 10:09 PM, Fire Emblem Fan said:

So, will people start complaining about all the Edelgard alts like they did for Lyn? No? Okay.

was just an offhand comment, venting my own frustration with IS's inability to space out alts of the same character more.

[Integrity]

1 minute ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

was just an offhand comment, venting my own frustration with IS's inability to space out alts of the same character more.

strikeout is a cowardly shorthand for shit you actually mean; if you didn't mean it, you wouldn't have posted it