In the Hypothetical Genalogy Remake, characters should get married at their C support

[Jotari]

"WHAT? Get married at their C support! Don't you know how awful the writing is with instant marriages in Awakening and Fates. Getting married post game is so much better and we've rightly taken a step in the right direction with the past two games."

Ah yes, I hear you shout. And in principle, I agree. It's far better to have supports cover the groundwork of entering a relationship, rather than trying to shove the set up and the whole relationship into three or four short conversations. BUT, this is Genealogy we're talking about. And the difference between Genealogy and other games is that the plot demands these people be married and actually start a family, during the course of the game (at least in the first gen). So instead of fading to black at the end of the game and leaving the bulk of their relationship post hook up to our imagination, I think for Genealogy it would be more prudent to do the opposite, and cut away the preamble of the relationship and start the support conversations with them already married. And wouldn't that just be like really different for a Fire Emblem game? To actually focus on people in a relationship rather than people dancing around the topic, getting together and then promptly being ignored? Hell I think Pent and Louise are the only characters in the series we've had supports for that have actually been in a committed relationship.

So mechanically, how would this work? Well by just leaving in the lover system as is as a mechanic to get to C support. Although maybe speed it up a bit so people get married earlier, but don't actually code in the existence of children until the B or A support. This would mean no platonic supports between male and female characters though, unless characters have two sets of supports for opposite gendered characters with one being married talk and the other being platonic (they could even talk about their spouse in their platonic conversations if we lock the opening of platonic conversations until after a marriage has been decided, although that might be annoying for people who want to leave their characters as single but still get platonic supports).

Genealogy seems particularly unique in the series as a game that can thread this ground. Rather than explore an excuse to get two characters hooked up, we can explore what an actual relationship could be like between these two individuals. If we do get a remake we will at least get supports for SigurdxDeirdre and CuanxLachesis that will work this way, I say extend it to the entire cast and give us some actual families to look at.

What do you think? This is an idea that just came to me suddenly on the thread complaining about supports and I sort of made it on a whim. There could be some problem narratively or mechanically that I'm just not seeing. But I think this could be a pretty interesting way to go about things.

Oh and the get married at C support is a bit of a clickbait title. I don't mean that all C supports will literally be weddings (though some could be). The main point is that when C support starts, the characters are already in some kind of defined relationship.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Jotari

[Gordin]

Or you know, just expand the support system so there's more than 4 conversations? 

Like 4 before marriage and 4 after alone would be a massive improvement.

 

[Jotari]

23 minutes ago, Gordin said:

Or you know, just expand the support system so there's more than 4 conversations? 

Like 4 before marriage and 4 after alone would be a massive improvement.

 

Considering there's only six chapters total, that would be paced really weirdly. Like especially for Briggid who is recruited at the very end of Chapter 3 and thus is only really around for two chapters. If supports refereshed after conquering every castle it could work, but trying to squeeze eight supports in for the likes of her and Claude would be difficult. Not to mention support fatigue, which was a major complaint of Three Houses. You're talking eight supports for everyone in your army over the course of two generations. Supports would end up being a larger part of the game than the actual gameplay with that many. Post S supports isn't a bad idea in concept, but I don't think it's well suited to Genealogy as a game.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Jotari

[Venger_06]

...This is actually a great idea. But then, how will pairing mechanics be introduced for new players? They may be confused to see that there are supports, but they are unable to unlock them.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

If we do get a remake we will at least get supports for SigurdxDeirdre and CuanxLachesis that will work this way, I say extend it to the entire cast and give us some actual families to look at.

Quan x Ethlyn, no?

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

...This is actually a great idea. But then, how will pairing mechanics be introduced for new players? They may be confused to see that there are supports, but they are unable to unlock them.

 

Well we literally just had that in Three Houses with many support tresholds being reached but not viewable until certain timed events have happened like Jearlt's death or the time skip. Some supports being locked off until a character has gotten married seems downright easy to follow in comparison.

9 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

 

Quan x Ethlyn, no?

Ah yes XD Quan is married to Sigurd's sister, not Eldigan's. My bad. So many gosh darn names in this series XD

Edited May 18, 2021 by Jotari

[Metal Flash]

I think its an interesting idea. exploring the relationship after it has been formed is an interesting propositon. I do wonder if they would make different interactions for different pairs, or they would just make all the platonic interactions the same.

My main concern lies with characters like Finn, Tiltyu and Brigid. The former leaves at the end of Chapter 3, so he has a limited amount of time to hook up with the female characters. Meanwhile, the other two join late in the third chapter of the first gen, which makes it hard to pair them up with someone.

[Use the Falchion]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

"WHAT? Get married at their C support! Don't you know how awful the writing is with instant marriages in Awakening and Fates. Getting married post game is so much better and we've rightly taken a step in the right direction with the past two games."

Ah yes, I hear you shout. And in principle, I agree. It's far better to have supports cover the groundwork of entering a relationship, rather than trying to shove the set up and the whole relationship into three or four short conversations. BUT, this is Genealogy we're talking about. And the difference between Genealogy and other games is that the plot demands these people be married and actually start a family, during the course of the game (at least in the first gen). So instead of fading to black at the end of the game and leaving the bulk of their relationship post hook up to our imagination, I think for Genealogy it would be more prudent to do the opposite, and cut away the preamble of the relationship and start the support conversations with them already married. And wouldn't that just be like really different for a Fire Emblem game? To actually focus on people in a relationship rather than people dancing around the topic, getting together and then promptly being ignored? Hell I think Pent and Louise are the only characters in the series we've had supports for that have actually been in a committed relationship.

So mechanically, how would this work? Well by just leaving in the lover system as is as a mechanic to get to C support. Although maybe speed it up a bit so people get married earlier, but don't actually code in the existence of children until the B or A support. This would mean no platonic supports between male and female characters though, unless characters have two sets of supports for opposite gendered characters with one being married talk and the other being platonic (they could even talk about their spouse in their platonic conversations if we lock the opening of platonic conversations until after a marriage has been decided, although that might be annoying for people who want to leave their characters as single but still get platonic supports).

Genealogy seems particularly unique in the series as a game that can thread this ground. Rather than explore an excuse to get two characters hooked up, we can explore what an actual relationship could be like between these two individuals. If we do get a remake we will at least get supports for SigurdxDeirdre and CuanxLachesis that will work this way, I say extend it to the entire cast and give us some actual families to look at.

What do you think? This is an idea that just came to me suddenly on the thread complaining about supports and I sort of made it on a whim. There could be some problem narratively or mechanically that I'm just not seeing. But I think this could be a pretty interesting way to go about things.

Oh and the get married at C support is a bit of a clickbait title. I don't mean that all C supports will literally be weddings (though some could be). The main point is that when C support starts, the characters are already in some kind of defined relationship.

You know, I don't mind that! Although I admit, I'm partial to B-Support marriages (just as a buffer), but I like your idea. It'd be fascinating to see supports with couples dealing as romantic partners, rather than all of the build-up and an epilogue. We would finally be shown something we've always wanted to see. The supports in the second part of the game would no doubt function like classical supports, yes? But that's fine. 

Granted, now I'm picturing supports going something like: 

Ethlyn: Quan, stop leaving your clothes all over the floor! Altena can't learn to walk well if the ground is too uneven!

Quan: It'll help her balance! 

Ethlyn: Or it'll mess up her balance.

Quan: Then we'll buy her a horse, something like the one you ride...no, wait, a dragon!

Ethlyn: And the smell?

Quan: It...reminds her of us!

Ethlyn: ...

Quan: ...I miss her too...

Ethlyn: I carry around some of her baby clothes. Just to hold at times. To remind me why we fight...

Quan: If you want, I can arrange a way for you to return to Altena.

Ethlyn: No!

Quan: Darling-

Ethlyn: I'm staying with you! Altena is strong, like her father. But my brother needs us both right now. 

Quan: Heh, Sigurd would fall apart without us. 

Ethlyn: Altena...even if we miss moments of Altena's life, she's with us, in spirit and in our hearts.

Quan: And we with her.

 

(Okay, the conversation took a mind of its own. Sorry!)

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

It's an intriguing idea. I don't really agree with making the first support an instant "love connection", though - especially in light of the base game having pre-marriage convos that don't result in instant wedding (Lewyn/Erinys notwithstanding). I've already stated my own remake idea - give C/B/A supports to marriageable pairs, and C/B to all platonic chains. That said,

21 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

You know, I don't mind that! Although I admit, I'm partial to B-Support marriages (just as a buffer), but I like your idea. It'd be fascinating to see supports with couples dealing as romantic partners, rather than all of the build-up and an epilogue. We would finally be shown something we've always wanted to see. The supports in the second part of the game would no doubt function like classical supports, yes? But that's fine. 

I think this would work better at replicating the existing system. Where conversations can occur before and after marriage. C is becoming acquainted, B establishes the pairing, and A elaborates on the relationship. Other marriage chains would then stall at C, while platonic chains could still exist as C/B.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

My main concern lies with characters like Finn, Tiltyu and Brigid. The former leaves at the end of Chapter 3, so he has a limited amount of time to hook up with the female characters. Meanwhile, the other two join late in the third chapter of the first gen, which makes it hard to pair them up with someone.

I think that's an issue no matter what way you slice it.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

You know, I don't mind that! Although I admit, I'm partial to B-Support marriages (just as a buffer), but I like your idea. It'd be fascinating to see supports with couples dealing as romantic partners, rather than all of the build-up and an epilogue. We would finally be shown something we've always wanted to see. The supports in the second part of the game would no doubt function like classical supports, yes? But that's fine. 

Granted, now I'm picturing supports going something like: 

Ethlyn: Quan, stop leaving your clothes all over the floor! Altena can't learn to walk well if the ground is too uneven!

Quan: It'll help her balance! 

Ethlyn: Or it'll mess up her balance.

Quan: Then we'll buy her a horse, something like the one you ride...no, wait, a dragon!

Ethlyn: And the smell?

Quan: It...reminds her of us!

Ethlyn: ...

Quan: ...I miss her too...

Ethlyn: I carry around some of her baby clothes. Just to hold at times. To remind me why we fight...

Quan: If you want, I can arrange a way for you to return to Altena.

Ethlyn: No!

Quan: Darling-

Ethlyn: I'm staying with you! Altena is strong, like her father. But my brother needs us both right now. 

Quan: Heh, Sigurd would fall apart without us. 

Ethlyn: Altena...even if we miss moments of Altena's life, she's with us, in spirit and in our hearts.

Quan: And we with her.

 

(Okay, the conversation took a mind of its own. Sorry!)

 

I like it, but Ethlyn would have absolutely no reason to complain about Quan's clothes affecting Altena if neither of them are anywhere near her and haven't been for a long time when the conversation takes place.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's an intriguing idea. I don't really agree with making the first support an instant "love connection", though - especially in light of the base game having pre-marriage convos that don't result in instant wedding (Lewyn/Erinys notwithstanding). I've already stated my own remake idea - give C/B/A supports to marriageable pairs, and C/B to all platonic chains. That said,

I think this would work better at replicating the existing system. Where conversations can occur before and after marriage. C is becoming acquainted, B establishes the pairing, and A elaborates on the relationship. Other marriage chains would then stall at C, while platonic chains could still exist as C/B.

Well like I said in the OP, I didn't literally mean the C support would be a marriage, more that all the supports would start after the base relationship has been formed. So less C support is an instant love connection, and more that the love connection was presumably formed during the traditional love points system of the old game (only quicker to have more time for more supports). So yeah, despite the title I actually mean even the C support would be taking place after the relationship has been established.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I like it, but Ethlyn would have absolutely no reason to complain about Quan's clothes affecting Altena if neither of them are anywhere near her and haven't been for a long time when the conversation takes place.

Ah, but what if the support conversations occur between chapters, at the hub castle? You lose a bit of gameplay interactivity, but also escapes the "why are you engaged in a hobby? this is a battlefield!" dilemma.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well like I said in the OP, I didn't literally mean the C support would be a marriage, more that all the supports would start after the base relationship has been formed. So less C support is an instant love connection, and more that the love connection was presumably formed during the traditional love points system of the old game (only quicker to have more time for more supports). So yeah, despite the title I actually mean even the C support would be taking place after the relationship has been established.

I get all that, but I'm not really on board. Not including conversations that show the relationship develop really asks the player to fill in a lot of gaps. Ones that needn't be there in the first place. It's basically making the player into a "blind matchmaker", which... okay, isn't entirely dissimilar from their role in classic FE4. Still, I'd be hesitant to set up any marriage between characters whose personalities are black boxes to me.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ah, but what if the support conversations occur between chapters, at the hub castle? You lose a bit of gameplay interactivity, but also escapes the "why are you engaged in a hobby? this is a battlefield!" dilemma.

I get all that, but I'm not really on board. Not including conversations that show the relationship develop really asks the player to fill in a lot of gaps. Ones that needn't be there in the first place. It's basically making the player into a "blind matchmaker", which... okay, isn't entirely dissimilar from their role in classic FE4. Still, I'd be hesitant to set up any marriage between characters whose personalities are black boxes to me.

Well the characters wouldn't be black boxes because they would have opportunities to show their personality in platonic supports, base convos or even the main plot. What would be the black box would be the relationship between the characters, rather than the characters themselves. And replicating how it actually works in Genealogy I'd find would be half the fun of it. Fidelity and all. Honestly it isn't the worst system in the world, the characters just lack the means to express themselves much beyond some battlefield conversations.

[Sayyyaka]

As long as the Lover status is triggered by a prompt, which it would be in this scenario, I'm happy.

I don't think many writers are capable of writing a relationship currently existing though.  That's why most romance anime/manga or even games with romantic relationships usually just end it at them entering their relationships...like FE for instance, which is just [Enters Relationship at A/S Support] -> [Ending].

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Sayyyaka said:

As long as the Lover status is triggered by a prompt, which it would be in this scenario, I'm happy.

Oh yes. Definitely. Trying to go for a specific pair in Genealogy only to discover two of your units have been seeing each other behind your back is a unique sort of pain XD

2 hours ago, Sayyyaka said:

I don't think many writers are capable of writing a relationship currently existing though.  That's why most romance anime/manga or even games with romantic relationships usually just end it at them entering their relationships...like FE for instance, which is just [Enters Relationship at A/S Support] -> [Ending].

I'm not so sure it's a case of writers can't do it, Romance books is one of the most popular genres out there (and yes characters in Romance books do typically get into actual relationships, it's not all just preamble), it's just the conventions of the genre usually air towards the will they won't they melodrama because romance is a subplot. Genealogy is divorced from that convention by it's design however, as the first gen characters have to actually be in the relationship by the end of the story, of course it's still absolutely possible they will stay in the comfort zone and do it with conventional Fire Emblem support cliches and just ignore the characters completely once they reach the marriage stage. At the very least they will have to do this with the two hardcoded couples in the game. So avoiding it completely is out of the question (unless they just ditch supports completely which seems unlikely). So finding someone who can write a decent committed relationship is already necessary. While in the anime-manga sphere it's not as popular compared to the build up to kokuhaku, there are anime and manga out there that are about exploring the nuances of an actual relationship. The talent is there, it's just a matter of deciding to actually thread new ground for the series instead of relying on the tried and tested and then hiring the people that can write such dynamics if the general writing staff can't.

Of course we could always get post marriage supports that are just badly written but still exist. Generally speaking writer incompetence is never a great argument for or against something. As absolutely any narrative plot point can be handled awfully or awesomely.

[Use the Falchion]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

I like it, but Ethlyn would have absolutely no reason to complain about Quan's clothes affecting Altena if neither of them are anywhere near her and haven't been for a long time when the conversation takes place.

Thanks, and I just came up with it off the top of my head, so things are going to be a bit wonky timeline-wise. If I revised it, I'd add that Quan hasn't lost that habit, and Ethlyn is worrying about clothing on the floor of their home, and how that may impede Altena's walking. Quan is aware that servants would most likely pick up the clothing, but that won't help Ethlyn's worrying (rational arguments can only help so much with irrational concerns), so he's playing along. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[Metal Flash]

Now that I`ve thought about it a bit more, they could even try and repurpose some of the map convos from the original game as supports convos. Like Sylvia`s talk with Alec after she joins or Azelle`s talk with Tiltyu in Chapter 4.

Anyway, my prefered rank for the characters to get married would be B-rank, so that the characters can have atleast one interaction before jumping into marriage/becoming lovers.

[Mylady]

I'd suggest 2 conversations until they marry and one or two big conversations after marriage. Not a confession out of blue, but a conversation post marriage. 

The units would marry manually in the castles or churches, and there they could have a small exchange of words. The supports will be unlocked by the player so the characters won't marry automatically. 

The biggest problem would be Finn and Tailtiu but it could be Chrom x Olivia over again in which the player would see it off screen. 

So, summing up 

C - The first support, the characters meeting each other or giving the tone of their interactions 

B - A more intimal conversation but that can also be vaguely platonic. The  friends/siblings will also have platonic supports until B 

-  then, every couple will automatically have a small exchange of words that is more romantic if the player chose to marry them. Nothing too long, but just to not make it out of blue and signal that they are together. 

A - A conversation after marriage, some can be based on the lover convos in the desert/last chapter, even though most pairings will have original convos. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Mylady

[Use the Falchion]

2 hours ago, Mylady said:

The biggest problem would be Finn and Tailtiu but it could be Chrom x Olivia over again in which the player would see it off screen. 

I'm not sure this was your intent, but this potential comparison makes me want to marry the two for some strange reason. (I also really like Chrom x Olivia...)

[AnonymousSpeed]

One thing to keep in mind is that Genealogy already has a system for characters to develop post-marriage. Talk conversations. Isn't Chapter 6 filled with talk conversations for the various possible couples? Post-marriage supports sounds fun and all, but it's hardly the only way to go about it. What exactly you end up doing probably depends on how you reconcile talk events with any potential support system.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

One thing to keep in mind is that Genealogy already has a system for characters to develop post-marriage. Talk conversations. Isn't Chapter 6 filled with talk conversations for the various possible couples? Post-marriage supports sounds fun and all, but it's hardly the only way to go about it. What exactly you end up doing probably depends on how you reconcile talk events with any potential support system.

That's Chapter 5, which ends the first generation. Chapter 6 kicks off the second, so nobody is married yet.

That said, I'm kind of torn between a Genealogy remake instituting a more "standard" support system, or else simply refining and building upon the existing talks and lover thresholds. I think the former would market better, but that the latter would be more interesting.

Also @Use the Falchion Finn/Tiltyu is a really cool pairing, at least conceptually. FE4 Miracle works arguably better than even Vantage, in synergy with Wrath. And the kids get Pursuit, which is always appreciated. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Added Finn/Tiltyu.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That's Chapter 5, which ends the first generation. Chapter 6 kicks off the second, so nobody is married yet.

Of course Chapter 5 is the 6th chapter because prologue. So understandable confusion.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That said, I'm kind of torn between a Genealogy remake instituting a more "standard" support system, or else simply refining and building upon the existing talks and lover thresholds. I think the former would market better, but that the latter would be more interesting.

Building on the original would sort of remove any platonic pseudo supports from the game. Unless they just create a bunch of convos you get regardless or implement some kind of platonic love system within your army.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Building on the original would sort of remove any platonic pseudo supports from the game. Unless they just create a bunch of convos you get regardless or implement some kind of platonic love system within your army.

There are plenty of Talks that don't build lover points. Like Adean->Ethlyn in chapter 1 (giving the Return staff), or Quan->Finn in chapter 2 (Brave Lance). We could keep these, and add more (say, an Alec->Noish conversation).