In Defense of Hybrid Units

[FashionEmblem]

Hello, long-time lurker, first-time poster; hopefully I don't break any rules.

I have a warm take that Three Houses does a lot to make hybrid builds more feasible than prior Fire Emblem games, but they are still underappreciated. I won't call this a hot take, because the consensus opinion that it's more efficient to invest in specialized units is not something I disagree with. It often takes a lot of investment to pull off a good hybrid build and Fire Emblem generally favors specialized units that require less input or have a higher/more certain payoff for the same input. Still, hybrid builds are at their best in Three Houses thanks to its mechanics: character-specific spell lists, class promotion base stats, weapon rank tutoring outside of battle, and New Game +.

 

0. What is a hyrbid?

Hybrid refers to a unit that uses both their strength and magic stats in battle. Generally, units are best left using only one of the two stats, as their base stats and growths will naturally favor one. Since enemy resistance is usually lower than defense and magic offers better range than melee physical weapons, the typical hybrid unit will be a physical attacker with a sufficiently high magic stat to use a magic weapon, magical combat arts, or is promoted into a class with magic access (sometimes later in the game) but retaining access to their physical weapons of choice. In Three Houses, mages generally benefit from raising their strength stat as strength/5 is subtracted from weapon weight to determine attack speed. However, it is much rarer for a magic-focused character to actually use their strength stat offensively, because of the aforementioned advantages in targeting resistance and range, so I will not consider merely gaining a strength stat on a mage to qualify as a hybrid build.

1. Spell Lists

Three Houses inherits the idea of spell lists from Fire Emblem Gaiden. Unit-specific spell lists are interesting because your best mages are often not able to fulfill every desired magical task on their own. For example, despite their great magic stats, none of Lysithea, Constance, nor Hubert make for great healers due to lack of Physic. Spells are also interesting in that they have limited uses but recharge every map, which prevents the common RPG hoarding problem.

Spell lists favor hybrid units because occasionally a character will have a great spell list despite lacking a magic stat, encouraging you to invest in their magic. A great example is Bernadetta, who gets Physic, Rescue, and Thoron despite neutrality in reason and faith, 5 base magic, and a puny 20% growth. While centralizing the healing and rescuing role together, potentially freeing up a deployment slot for someone else, has its appeal, how are you supposed to use her effectively when her base magic allows for a 1 range rescue and her growth is taking her nowhere fast?

2. Class Promotion Base Stats

Another mechanic inherited from Gaiden and its remakes, when a character promotes into a new class, their stats are elevated to the base stats of the new class, if needed. This can be used for a few tricks in Three Houses: 12 base defense for an Armor Knight promotion (easily attainable even for squishy characters like Annette and Hapi); 17 base defense for a Fortress Knight; 17–19 base strength from promoting to an advanced physical class (ensures base usability for low-strength physical characters and allows mages to offset weight); and, most importantly for this post, 17 base magic from Warlock and 15 base magic from Bishop. Although 15–17 base magic seems like a pittance relative to, for example, Lysithea's 11 + 60% magic, it's actually quite workable thanks to lower enemy resistance. There are several characters with decent magic growths, such as Byleth, Felix, and Sylvain, who can end up with usable magic if they correct for a low base stat with a promotion. Bernadetta learns Rescue at A-rank Faith, thus she is guaranteed 15 magic and at least a 3-range Rescue (and needs only 1 point for 4 range) at that point.

3. Weapon Rank Training

Unlike other games in the series, notably Fire Emblem Fates, hybrid weapon ranks are much less of an issue in Three Houses thanks to the instruction system. In Fire Emblem Fates, several classes gain hybrid weapons on promotion: Dark Mages gain swords as Dark Knights, Wyvern Riders can now equip tomes as Malig Knights, Basaras gain lances or tomes coming out of Diviner or Spear Fighter, and Oni Savages gain tomes when promoting to Oni Chieftans. However, all of the new weapon ranks start at E, restricting usage to low MT weapons, most of which cannot crit nor activate skills. Fates is also stingy with weapon experience from combat and Arms Scrolls, also limiting the viability of any gained hybrid weapons. For Three Houses, however, it's straightforward to raise weapon ranks even without their usage. A Dark Knight Sylvain may have not set foot on the battlefield in a magic class until level 30, yet come equipped with his full spell-list.

Of course, despite being easier than Awakening and Fates to have ranks, weapon ranks are still a problem in Three Houses. Instruction time comes with opportunity costs, and prioritizing magic instead of a unit's primary physical weapons might be a losing trade. Sure, Sylvain can toss a chip heal with Physic or help quickly break a monster barrier with Seraphim at B in Faith, but did it come at the cost of getting Swift Strikes (A lances) sooner? Bernadetta may be able to combine a chip Physic with a short-range Rescue at A in Faith, but did she have time to get Death Blow (D+ axes) , Vengeance (C+ Lances), Encloser (A Bows), and prep for her mid and endgame promotions (likely needing high ranks in Riding or Flying)? What about their authority and access to good battalions?

4. New Game +

While discussions focused on efficiency will focus on Maddening NG since the highest difficulty helps separate out the best strategies, it is worth mentioning that despite unfocused weapon ranks being one of the primary deficiencies of a hybrid character, especially ones needing at least B+ in reason or faith by level 20 to gain a respectable base stat, NG+ resolves the issue. If you trained Bernadetta in a prior playthrough in Axes, Lances, Bows, Riding, and authority, it's no longer a stretch to train her in Faith and maybe put her into Holy Knight for that Rescue (or, even better, toss in some Reason and Flying for Dark Flier). While this does emphasize one of the limitations of hybrid units in a post promoting them, at least there is a straightforward in-game mechanic to address it.

5. What about mages attacking physically?

I focused a lot on physical units gaining magical traits and not the reverse. A lot of that is the previously mentioned advantages in targeting enemy resistance, typically the lower defensive stat, and magic's range advantage. Felix has an amazing strength stat that will typically be much higher than his magic, even with a promotion to Warlock at level 20; however, he still might be able to do more damage to a high-defense Fortress Knight with a magic weapon, and more safely at range with all of them besides the Aura Knuckles. Lysithea's 17 strength after acquiring a promotion to Swordmaster does not particularly encourage her to use physical weapons compared to her 2–6 range magic, allowing her to attack safely despite her frailty.

There are a few exceptions though. Annette, for example, has an unimpressive spell list with little utility (just Recover) and not much attack power, so she is better off getting on a Wyvern to focus on Lightning Axe, Bolt Axe, Crusher, and higher-mobility rallies. However, because Wyvern Rider gives her base 18 strength, Wyvern Lord gives +4 strength modifier, and class growths bring her up to 40–45% strength growths, she can end up with surprisingly good strength. For example, it wouldn't be surprising for a Wyvern Lord Annette to have higher strength than the canon Snipers: Bernadetta, Ashe, and Ignatz. Though she will typically get more damage off with magical axe attacks, she could occasionally equip a Brave Axe for a kill she might not otherwise get, such as a fast mage.

6. What about combat arts?

Combat arts really open up the potential of hybrids further, particularly in Maddening where inflated enemy speed makes it difficult to double naturally. A Magic Bow combined with Hunter's Volley or Point-Blank Volley will do good damage off just a decent magic stat, and a bunch of archers have decent magic growths (Felix, Ashe, Ignatz, Cyril). Fierce Iron Fist and Aura Knuckles can work as well, though the low MT doesn't scale well with enemy resistance. Ingrid has fairly balanced and mediocre strength and magic bases (in-house) and growths, so she can use Frozen Lance to some effect. While Edelgard's spell list is interesting, with Luna, Hades, and Seraphim, the opportunity cost of Wyvern Lord is simply too high to justify the jump into spell-casting (Dark Flier misses out on Axefaire and 4 points of strength), but she does get Lightning Axe and a 45% growth (14–15 magic at level 20, on average, means she doesn't particularly need the magic rank for a base stat). Sublime Heaven adds 30% of Byleth's magic stat to its physical MT, the closest the game gets to Ignis from Awakening, which might be worth buttressing with a dip into Bishop thanks to their budding talent.

 

In conclusion, are hybrid builds outclassed? Generally, yes. But there are plenty out there and Three Houses does a surprisingly good job making them feasible. Even on Maddening difficulty there's some room for experimentation (just make sure you aren't experimenting on too many fronts at once). If I was able to get a Dark Knight Sylvain to work on Maddening NG Azure Moon while not getting 17 base magic until the Dark Knight promotion at level 30 and him being strength screwed for a good chunk of the early time-skip, I'm sure you can get your hybrid build off the ground too.

[Barren]

That’s an interesting take on hybrid units. I think that a lot of times why people don’t go for hybrid units is because if either weird stat distribution/buffs upon certification or for some it’s simply not worth investing in.

Like if Felix were to go to Mortal Savant because he has black magic crit +10 as bis budding talent in reason. He only has Thunder and Thoron so the game expects you to occasionally score some crits with his black magic. To be fair Thunder and Thoron do have an innate crit chance and adding another crit + 10 does help, but other options like Levin Sword+ exists and typically outlasts Thoron in terms of the amount of uses you get per map. But spells do fully recharge every new battle whereas you need Arcane Crystals to repair the magical weapon.
 

They tend to be uncommon to get at first, unless you feed the cats and dogs some fish where there is a chance of getting them. By part 2 where you complete the Taking Care of Business request, you unlock a shop that sells Arcane Crystals and you should have a decent amount of money by then. The -10% speed growth of Mortal Savant is another glaring negative a lot of people have because you’re giving up 30% of your speed growth assuming you’ve been leveling up as a Swordmaster or Assassin since they offer a +20% speed growth.

The Dark Knight Sylvain example you brought up is more feasible because he gains black magic avoid +20. He has a longer spell list and combine that with Bowbreaker, you have an anti-sniper unit. Give him Caduceus or Thrysus then he’ll be especially effective.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Really great writeup! I'm a fan of hybrid units, and I find them feeling better than ever in Three Houses.

12 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

2. Class Promotion Base Stats

I love the "Armor Knight trick"! Another similar one that's oft overlooked, is the "Thief Trick". An instant boost to 11 in Dex and Speed, just for having C Swords! I used this on Balthus in my current playthrough.

12 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

Annette, for example, has an unimpressive spell list with little utility (just Recover) and not much attack power, so she is better off getting on a Wyvern to focus on Lightning Axe, Bolt Axe, Crusher, and higher-mobility rallies. However, because Wyvern Rider gives her base 18 strength, Wyvern Lord gives +4 strength modifier, and class growths bring her up to 40–45% strength growths, she can end up with surprisingly good strength.

I had a great time with Wyvern Annette on AM Maddening. There was something particularly satisfying about using Lightning Axe on the Axe of Ukonvasara, to deal triple-digit damage to enemy Armors. And flier mobility was great for her Rally support.

12 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

A Magic Bow combined with Hunter's Volley or Point-Blank Volley will do good damage off just a decent magic stat, and a bunch of archers have decent magic growths (Felix, Ashe, Ignatz, Cyril).

Hubert, Hanneman, or Mercedes seem like they could have potential on this front too, as high-Magic units with a boon (or budding talent) in Bows. Of course, they'll struggle to deal damage with any non-magic Bows.

12 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

Ingrid has fairly balanced and mediocre strength and magic bases (in-house) and growths, so she can use Frozen Lance to some effect.

There are quite a few good Frozen Lancers out there: Hubert and Marianne both achieve it through a budding talent (i.e. earlier than C+), which they can parlay into doing well as a Cavalier or Pegasus Knight. Lorenz gets it, too, as does Flayn (hers isn't until A, though, which sucks). Regardless, Frozen Lance can be combined with a Horseslayer, a Hero's Relic, or just a high-Might Lance to deal devastating damage. And on CF, magical Lance units can get the Arrow of Indra, for a ranged option.

7 hours ago, Barren said:

They tend to be uncommon to get at first, unless you feed the cats and dogs some fish where there is a chance of getting them. By part 2 where you complete the Taking Care of Business request, you unlock a shop that sells Arcane Crystals

I kind of hate how long it takes to get these reliably. I get why monsters don't drop them (they don't drop any buyable ores), but it's a very weird feel, having far more (supposedly rare) Umbral Steel than Arcane Crystals for most of the game.

7 hours ago, Barren said:

The Dark Knight Sylvain example you brought up is more feasible because he gains black magic avoid +20. He has a longer spell list and combine that with Bowbreaker, you have an anti-sniper unit. Give him Caduceus or Thrysus then he’ll be especially effective.

I went for this build on AM Maddening (NG+). He was pretty cool, even if I never got his Avoid quite as high as I wanted to. Also went for Dark Knight Ferdinand on SS, which sounds weird, but hey he gets Thoron.

[Shadow Mir]

Sorry, but this is something I find hard to agree with; while there are kernels of truth in your post, like this:

7 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

Another mechanic inherited from Gaiden and its remakes, when a character promotes into a new class, their stats are elevated to the base stats of the new class, if needed. This can be used for a few tricks in Three Houses: 12 base defense for an Armor Knight promotion (easily attainable even for squishy characters like Annette and Hapi); 17 base defense for a Fortress Knight; 17–19 base strength from promoting to an advanced physical class (ensures base usability for low-strength physical characters and allows mages to offset weight); and, most importantly for this post, 17 base magic from Warlock and 15 base magic from Bishop. Although 15–17 base magic seems like a pittance relative to, for example, Lysithea's 11 + 60% magic, it's actually quite workable thanks to lower enemy resistance. There are several characters with decent magic growths, such as Byleth, Felix, and Sylvain, who can end up with usable magic if they correct for a low base stat with a promotion. Bernadetta learns Rescue at A-rank Faith, thus she is guaranteed 15 magic and at least a 3-range Rescue (and needs only 1 point for 4 range) at that point.

...you completely disregard, or at least downplay, how much investment it takes to get there. And to be frank, 15/17 magic is rather underwhelming when it takes at least getting close to an A rank to achieve. In the same vein, I consider having characters like Annette qualify for Fortress Knight to be very impractical, because most such characters have a weakness in one or even both of the requirements (axes and heavy armour), and the results aren't nearly good enough to justify the investment. I mean, 17 defense for certifying in Fortress Knight looks good - until you realize it requires having to actively invest in a weakness (or two, in the case of Coco, Mercedes, Bernadetta, and Lysithea). Heck, even if you were okay with settling for the bare minimum pass chance, you still need to get to C+ in both, which is not a trivial amount of investment.

7 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

Unlike other games in the series, notably Fire Emblem Fates, hybrid weapon ranks are much less of an issue in Three Houses thanks to the instruction system. In Fire Emblem Fates, several classes gain hybrid weapons on promotion: Dark Mages gain swords as Dark Knights, Wyvern Riders can now equip tomes as Malig Knights, Basaras gain lances or tomes coming out of Diviner or Spear Fighter, and Oni Savages gain tomes when promoting to Oni Chieftans. However, all of the new weapon ranks start at E, restricting usage to low MT weapons, most of which cannot crit nor activate skills. Fates is also stingy with weapon experience from combat and Arms Scrolls, also limiting the viability of any gained hybrid weapons. For Three Houses, however, it's straightforward to raise weapon ranks even without their usage. A Dark Knight Sylvain may have not set foot on the battlefield in a magic class until level 30, yet come equipped with his full spell-list.

Of course, despite being easier than Awakening and Fates to have ranks, weapon ranks are still a problem in Three Houses. Instruction time comes with opportunity costs, and prioritizing magic instead of a unit's primary physical weapons might be a losing trade. Sure, Sylvain can toss a chip heal with Physic or help quickly break a monster barrier with Seraphim at B in Faith, but did it come at the cost of getting Swift Strikes (A lances) sooner? Bernadetta may be able to combine a chip Physic with a short-range Rescue at A in Faith, but did she have time to get Death Blow (D+ axes) , Vengeance (C+ Lances), Encloser (A Bows), and prep for her mid and endgame promotions (likely needing high ranks in Riding or Flying)? What about their authority and access to good battalions?

The real problem is that most units aren't specced towards hybrid roles (for example, what would I get out of making Oboro a Basara when she starts with a big fat goose egg in magic? In a similar vein, Orochi is a lost cause with physical weapons, and thus Basara's lance access doesn't help her any), and the few that are (e.g. Lorenz) tend to be specced such that they end up being good at neither more often than not, making it hard to fit them on a team (after all, tomes and physical weapons are both used for attacking, and you need high strength or magic to deal good damage in the first place). In this game, the fact that hybrid classes tend to require more investment than most other builds doesn't help matters (especially when they turn out to be rather underwhelming). For example, Dark Knight Sylvain needs Reason, Lance, and Riding investment, as they are the requirements, and you're probably going to invest in Faith and Authority as well. That's 5 parameters you're investing in. Out of 11. Can you say "spreading yourself thin"?

7 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

I focused a lot on physical units gaining magical traits and not the reverse. A lot of that is the previously mentioned advantages in targeting enemy resistance, typically the lower defensive stat, and magic's range advantage. Felix has an amazing strength stat that will typically be much higher than his magic, even with a promotion to Warlock at level 20; however, he still might be able to do more damage to a high-defense Fortress Knight with a magic weapon, and more safely at range with all of them besides the Aura Knuckles. Lysithea's 17 strength after acquiring a promotion to Swordmaster does not particularly encourage her to use physical weapons compared to her 2–6 range magic, allowing her to attack safely despite her frailty.

There are a few exceptions though. Annette, for example, has an unimpressive spell list with little utility (just Recover) and not much attack power, so she is better off getting on a Wyvern to focus on Lightning Axe, Bolt Axe, Crusher, and higher-mobility rallies. However, because Wyvern Rider gives her base 18 strength, Wyvern Lord gives +4 strength modifier, and class growths bring her up to 40–45% strength growths, she can end up with surprisingly good strength. For example, it wouldn't be surprising for a Wyvern Lord Annette to have higher strength than the canon Snipers: Bernadetta, Ashe, and Ignatz. Though she will typically get more damage off with magical axe attacks, she could occasionally equip a Brave Axe for a kill she might not otherwise get, such as a fast mage.

I'm not really convinced; sure, it may help against Fortress Knights (and those have weaknesses to armorslayers and hammers), but what about everything else??? Because I'm not convinced that "I'm using a lesser stat to attack, but the enemy also has less defense against that stat as well" will equalize. Especially since everyone loves emphasizing Death Blow and Fiendish Blow (and I definitely don't consider picking up both practical). Also, I'd find Felix to be one of the last units I'd be having actively study reason - even ignoring the weakness in it, the budding talent is trash, and his spell list is drier than Lake Hylia after Ganondorf brought ruin to Hyrule.

The problem here is that you completely ignore the fact that most flying battalions are physical, and there's only one magic flying battalion, which requires DLC. This means making some hard choices if I happened to want a Dark Flier, as they're gonna want it. Also, you gloss over the accuracy (or lack thereof) of the Bolt Axe and Crusher, especially the latter, as it forces her into melee range - which I consider about as smart as robbing a gun store; unless she attacked an archer, she's going to make like a Prinny and explode if she whiffs with it. I don't consider this a good thing, being a pragmatic FE player.

13 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

Combat arts really open up the potential of hybrids further, particularly in Maddening where inflated enemy speed makes it difficult to double naturally. A Magic Bow combined with Hunter's Volley or Point-Blank Volley will do good damage off just a decent magic stat, and a bunch of archers have decent magic growths (Felix, Ashe, Ignatz, Cyril). Fierce Iron Fist and Aura Knuckles can work as well, though the low MT doesn't scale well with enemy resistance. Ingrid has fairly balanced and mediocre strength and magic bases (in-house) and growths, so she can use Frozen Lance to some effect. While Edelgard's spell list is interesting, with Luna, Hades, and Seraphim, the opportunity cost of Wyvern Lord is simply too high to justify the jump into spell-casting (Dark Flier misses out on Axefaire and 4 points of strength), but she does get Lightning Axe and a 45% growth (14–15 magic at level 20, on average, means she doesn't particularly need the magic rank for a base stat). Sublime Heaven adds 30% of Byleth's magic stat to its physical MT, the closest the game gets to Ignis from Awakening, which might be worth buttressing with a dip into Bishop thanks to their budding talent.

I frankly think you're putting too much stock in Byleth's budding talent - the ability attained from it, and their Faith list as well, is garbage (Heal/Nos/Recover/Aura isn't setting the world on fire, and neither is White Magic Avoid +20). Also, Felix, Ashe and Cyril all have weaknesses in Reason.

10 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

Three Houses does a surprisingly good job making them feasible.

I would disagree for reasons already stated.

[FashionEmblem]

16 hours ago, Barren said:

Like if Felix were to go to Mortal Savant because he has black magic crit +10 as bis budding talent in reason. He only has Thunder and Thoron so the game expects you to occasionally score some crits with his black magic. To be fair Thunder and Thoron do have an innate crit chance and adding another crit + 10 does help, but other options like Levin Sword+ exists and typically outlasts Thoron in terms of the amount of uses you get per map. But spells do fully recharge every new battle whereas you need Arcane Crystals to repair the magical weapon.
 

They tend to be uncommon to get at first, unless you feed the cats and dogs some fish where there is a chance of getting them. By part 2 where you complete the Taking Care of Business request, you unlock a shop that sells Arcane Crystals and you should have a decent amount of money by then. The -10% speed growth of Mortal Savant is another glaring negative a lot of people have because you’re giving up 30% of your speed growth assuming you’ve been leveling up as a Swordmaster or Assassin since they offer a +20% speed growth.

I usually don't go for Mortal Savant in general, as I find Dark Knight achieves a similar task, sword-wielder with magic access, and I prefer the tradeoff of more movement and canto to Swordfaire. Felix's spell list is certainly shallow, but Thoron, Recover, Restore is more than just nothing, I suppose. Nowadays I rarely run sword Felix honestly, running him as Sniper, Bow Knight, Grappler, or Warmaster instead. In a Maddening NG+ CF playthrough I just finished, I went Grappler but did use his Reason budding talent for the Warlock base magic and stuck a Levin Sword on him for range. It was actually fairly effective for the task of clearing out armors and generally being able to attack beyond melee, if needed. I had previously used Felix as a Bow Knight, so aside from Authority he didn't gain too much from NG+ bonuses. At the very end I was able to get him Movement +1, but it was a minor buff on Chapter 17 and its terrain (I one-turned Chapter 18 with Edelgard, making Felix's participation moot).

16 hours ago, Barren said:

The Dark Knight Sylvain example you brought up is more feasible because he gains black magic avoid +20. He has a longer spell list and combine that with Bowbreaker, you have an anti-sniper unit. Give him Caduceus or Thrysus then he’ll be especially effective.

This is certainly an option, though not one I used. I find it doesn't quite work because unlike swords, gauntlets, and white magic, Reason Prowess only gives you up to +10 avoid, instead of 20. Sylvain also isn't the fastest, particularly going through horse classes, so getting doubled a lot eats into how much avoidance luck he can muster. My main goals with Dark Knight Sylvain were actually form his Faith list, Physic and Seraphim. I like Seraphim because even though it doesn't hit hard off Sylvain's magic stat, it can still help break monster barriers without a gambit when they are not weak to lances and physic is generally nice. Otherwise, he was spamming Swift Strikes and doing his best Paladin impersonation. I gave Thyrsus and Caduceus to my dedicated mages instead, though occasionally I would trade Sylvain the Healing Staff to make those Physics more respectable.

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Hubert, Hanneman, or Mercedes seem like they could have potential on this front too, as high-Magic units with a boon (or budding talent) in Bows. Of course, they'll struggle to deal damage with any non-magic Bows.

Yes they certainly can, though I treated that as outside the scope of hybrid since they probably don't use physical weapons much and won't get much of a strength stat beyond the 17 base strength on promotion to Sniper. Still, the canon Snipers also struggle to get much strength, so maybe they would be able to pull out a physical bow about as well. Another perk of the Magic Bow+ is 2-3 Range, so it doesn't suffer the hit penalty at 3 range.

I haven't used Hanneman, but maybe Sniper and Grappler are just his best options. His support spell list is unimpressive with Recover and Ward, and while his Reason list has a lot going for it, I think the killing power is outclassed by Hunter's Volley and Fierce Iron Fist. If he ends up not dependent on Fierce Iron Fist, then War Monk is an alternative allowing him to use Aura Knuckles and have access to his spell list (e.g., Meteor linked attacks).

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

There are quite a few good Frozen Lancers out there: Hubert and Marianne both achieve it through a budding talent (i.e. earlier than C+), which they can parlay into doing well as a Cavalier or Pegasus Knight. Lorenz gets it, too, as does Flayn (hers isn't until A, though, which sucks). Regardless, Frozen Lance can be combined with a Horseslayer, a Hero's Relic, or just a high-Might Lance to deal devastating damage. And on CF, magical Lance units can get the Arrow of Indra, for a ranged option.

Yeah, the post got long and I did not make an exhaustive list; I probably should have mentioned so explicitly. I focused on ones I had actually used and could speak better to. I did forget to mention in general that one of the nice things about magical combat artes is you can use weapon effects while attacking with magic. As in your example, anyone with Frozen Lance can mimic a melee Dark Spikes with a Horseslayer.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

In the same vein, I consider having characters like Annette qualify for Fortress Knight to be very impractical, because most such characters have a weakness in one or even both of the requirements (axes and heavy armour), and the results aren't nearly good enough to justify the investment. I mean, 17 defense for certifying in Fortress Knight looks good - until you realize it requires having to actively invest in a weakness (or two

I agree here. It might get lost in the formatting, but the parenthetical about Annette and Hapi was Armor Knight not Fortress Knight, a much lower investment. I brought them up specifically because they have boons or budding talents in axes, making it a bit easier for them to get there, despite the bane in Armor (they only need E+ for a chance at certification, which is 3 weeks, instead of 2 weeks, of passive instruction due to the bane). Of course, it is an opportunity cost for Hapi who primarily wants to rush her Faith proficiency for Physic and Warp as soon as possible and also would like some instructions to alleviate her Authority bane.

Not really about hybrids, but Fortress Knight can be useful for characters with boons or budding talents in armor, especially if you are already planning to train axes. You pick up Weight -3 and Smite on the way to B Armor alongside the 17 defense. I also often end up doing it with Byleth just because I end up with lots of Monastery Activity Points and nothing better to do with them than train random weapon ranks for future playthroughs (with NG+, I only have to raise armor once to B in the series of files).

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The real problem is that most units aren't specced towards hybrid roles (for example, what would I get out of making Oboro a Basara when she starts with a big fat goose egg in magic? In a similar vein, Orochi is a lost cause with physical weapons, and thus Basara's lance access doesn't help her any), and the few that are (e.g. Lorenz) tend to be specced such that they end up being good at neither more often than not, making it hard to fit them on a team (after all, tomes and physical weapons are both used for attacking, and you need high strength or magic to deal good damage in the first place).

There are actually some characters in Fates that can work in terms of stats for the hybrid role for those classes. Hayato has surprisingly good strength to make Basara work. Odin also has surprisingly good strength and actually fairly poor magic, so a switch to Samurai/Swordmaster (patching up his speed) or picking up swords as Dark Knight is neat. Unfortunately, both have to deal with the E rank hell I described. Leo has D rank swords at base and surprisingly good strength, but with his higher magic stat and Brynhildr there's little reason to use his physical weapons. I agree that many hybrids often have low stats that do not let them succeed in either role. Odin from Fates and Lorenz are good examples. Ingrid too, though at least she has a speed stat that can help set her up at least as a good dodge tank. That's actually why the hybrids I like tend to be units that are good physically but have magical utility in their back pocket, such as Sylvain and Bernadetta.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

For example, Dark Knight Sylvain needs Reason, Lance, and Riding investment, as they are the requirements, and you're probably going to invest in Faith and Authority as well. That's 5 parameters you're investing in. Out of 11. Can you say "spreading yourself thin"?

Yep, that's exactly what I did. As I mentioned, these builds are fun but not particularly efficient and are often outclassed. Spread too thin is also why I bring up that it's much easier to pull off with NG+ because you don't have to do it all at once. I pulled up my NG Maddening AM playthrough where I did this, and I specifically went for a challenge run where I did not use DLC (i.e., no sauna), and at Chapter 22 my Sylvain ended up with A+ Lances, D+ Axes, A Reason, B Faith, B Authority, and A+ Riding. My main mistake here was not setting aside time to get him D+ bows for Hit +20 from Archer mastery, because I assumed he was spread too thin for that. These ranks did not involve particular use of the Knowledge Gem because I put them primarily on Dimitri and Dedue.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'm not really convinced; sure, it may help against Fortress Knights (and those have weaknesses to armorslayers and hammers), but what about everything else??? Because I'm not convinced that "I'm using a lesser stat to attack, but the enemy also has less defense against that stat as well" will equalize. Especially since everyone loves emphasizing Death Blow and Fiendish Blow (and I definitely don't consider picking up both practical). Also, I'd find Felix to be one of the last units I'd be having actively study reason - even ignoring the weakness in it, the budding talent is trash, and his spell list is drier than Lake Hylia after Ganondorf brought ruin to Hyrule.

I don't have the enemy stats in front of me for the armor effective weaponry vs. magic weapons, but anecdotally I have gotten these kills with magic weapons. I personally tend to specialize my units in a single weapon type, so lances, bows, and gauntlets have no real recourse against armor besides magic weapons (and for lances, effectively only in CF) or magic combat artes. For example, I have seen Sylvain unable to kill without a crit off Swift Strikes against Fortress Knights, but be able to one round them with Ragnarok (mind you, he can only do that once per map) or do a good chunk of damage with Bolganone, and magic also allows him to avoid Lancebreaker. Gauntlets also lack range so I have, for example, given a Levin Sword to a Grappler Felix—sometimes I just want him to get a kill from 9 tiles away instead of 7, and he can.

Agreed that Felix's spell list is shallow and therefore there is not much to support with his budding talent. Personally, if I train Felix in reason it is purely for the base magic from the Warlock promotion to use magic weapons.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem here is that you completely ignore the fact that most flying battalions are physical, and there's only one magic flying battalion, which requires DLC. This means making some hard choices if I happened to want a Dark Flier, as they're gonna want it. Also, you gloss over the accuracy (or lack thereof) of the Bolt Axe and Crusher, especially the latter, as it forces her into melee range - which I consider about as smart as robbing a gun store; unless she attacked an archer, she's going to make like a Prinny and explode if she whiffs with it. I don't consider this a good thing, being a pragmatic FE player.

Well, NG+ helps with the accumulation of Nuvelle Flier Corps opening up the options for more Dark Fliers, and not necessarily all Dark Fliers need a magic batallion. A Bernadetta Dark Flier, for example, for Physic/Rescue utility would still be best off attacking physically with Vengeance, and since battalions raise Magic Attack and not the base stat, it does nothing to increase her Rescue range so she has little need for it. Since I did not use DLC for that playthrough, I did just stick a physical flying battalion on Wyvern Annette and she did just fine. Her hit rates could be shaky at points, but I also didn't take any steps to mitigate that such as acquiring Hit +20 or Uncanny Blow (though Valkyrie would have been a big investment). Lightning Axe off an Iron Axe was usually a sufficient solution for her shaky hit rates and got a good number of kills. Actually, at least on Chapter 13, she was one of the better damage dealers because Byleth was waiting to activate Alert Stance and Dimitri was refilling his HP to allow dodge-tanking the hoards of speedy enemies.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I frankly think you're putting too much stock in Byleth's budding talent - the ability attained from it, and their Faith list as well, is garbage (Heal/Nos/Recover/Aura isn't setting the world on fire, and neither is White Magic Avoid +20). Also, Felix, Ashe and Cyril all have weaknesses in Reason.

I mention it as an aside in one sentence because it exists but isn't particularly impressive. It actually is 2 points of magic better (and 1 point on Sublime Heaven) to go through Reason/Warlock instead, but it's also more investment without the boon/budding talent. Similar to Felix's budding talent in Reason, I use it to train faster for a stat boost on promotion, if at all. Ashe has a weakness in reason but is neutral in Faith so can work at a magic stat that way instead. I've generally been pleasantly surprised with Ashe's magic stat even without a promotion base stat. I think it's the confluence of his low strength, so his magic, while lower, still does good damage when targeting resistance, and the general power of Hunter's Volley. Cyril definitely has banes in both reason and faith. I think a Magic Bow Cyril either needs to get lucky off his 35% growth or needs NG+ so you can train his Reason despite the bane.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would disagree for reasons already stated.

I am happy to agree to disagree. If I may be so bold as to summarize your points, I believe you consider hybrid units to be outclassed high-investment gimmicks. I do not disagree with that assessment, but do think you can overcome the investment hurdle thanks to the game's features (particularly NG+) and I just find the outclassed gimmicks to be fun. Also, even though an individual hybrid build may sacrifice power for utility, you also build an entire team and might be planning to build in that power elsewhere in your deployment slots to justify the sacrifice. My Dark Knight Sylvain was a worse killer than Wyvern Lord Seteth and a significantly worse healer than Gremory Mercedes, but it was nice filling a single deployment slot with someone who could alternate between both roles as dictated by the tempo of battle.

Edited May 22, 2021 by FashionEmblem
Originally overstated power of Sylvain's Bolganone

[Agro]

I think hybrid builds work really in late Part 1 and early Part 2, to a certain extent. Cavalier Hubert with Fiendish Blow and Frozen Lance is really fun and he will 1-shot just about everything that he looks at with a Magic Staff until the later CF chapters, at which point he can switch over to Dark Knight and provide battalion support through his monstrous Charm stat and Resonant Flames/Ice/Lightning whatever, as well as occasional Banshee and Dark Spikes. Same goes for Pegasus Knight Annette with Lightning Axe.

I can see Dark Knight Sylvain running into some significant speed issues in the lategame, however, so what is he going to be able to do other than chip magic damage? The same goes for everyone else - they're not going to be able to ORKO anything so they just end up being kinda crappy at everything. I can see a good case for Holy Knight Bernadetta, although you already addressed the fact that she's likely sacrificing some good stuff to get to A Faith unless you're in NG+.

[lenticular]

I broadly agree with the assessment of "usable but not optimal", but I'll add one thing that Three Houses has which I think fairly strongly discourage hybrid attackers. That's the degree of specialisation that the game encourages through skills and -- to a lesser extent -- items. If you have a character who primarily attacks with magic then you're probably going to give them fiendish blow, and might also have magic +2 and a magic staff. Even assuming a magic stat that is a fairly modest 5 points higher than strength stat, that turns into +16 more might on a magic attack than a physical one. Depending on cicrcumstances, there may even be a -faire skill involved to even further stack the deck. There might still be occasional niche circumstances where using a brave axe to attack a pegasus knight is still the best choice, but they're going to be extremely rare.

The area where I think Three Houses really excels is magic weapon attacks. With the great selection of weapons that deal magic damage and magic combat arts for most weapon types, these builds are as good as they've ever been. From more of a storytelling perspective, I think that these builds satisfy a lot of the same fantasies that hybrid builds do. If a player's main concern is "I want a character who can cut their foes down with a sword but also lob fireballs", then they can absolutely achieve that fantasy, and do so without ever making a single strength-based attack. Take a unit with hexblade or soulblade, put them in a class with access to magic, and you're basically there.

Those builds don't fulfil the gameplay requirement of having a unit with the tactical flexibility to attack against whichever of the target's defensive stats are lower but I'm not really convinced that's all that desirable to begin with. Fire Emblem is a squad-based game where it's rarely important to have one unit who can deal with any and all potential threats. Rather, you need for your party as a whole to be able to deal with all eventualities, which generally means having different units specialised for different things.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

15 hours ago, Agro said:

I can see Dark Knight Sylvain running into some significant speed issues in the lategame, however, so what is he going to be able to do other than chip magic damage?

Physic support, Monster control with Seraphim, Offensive gambits with his pretty good Charm stat. Sylvain is pretty versatile.

13 hours ago, lenticular said:

I broadly agree with the assessment of "usable but not optimal", but I'll add one thing that Three Houses has which I think fairly strongly discourage hybrid attackers. That's the degree of specialisation that the game encourages through skills and -- to a lesser extent -- items.

Generally agree. Not only does it take a long time to get both Fiendish Blow and Death Blow (or, both Str +2 and Mag +2), it means taking up two skill slots. And it's almost always better to have two skills that synergize with one another (i.e. Death Blow and Str +2), rather than complement one another (i.e. Death Blow and Fiendish Blow). Add to this, the fact that most battalions boost one form of offense, or the other (with a handful that do both).

When I said

21 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Really great writeup! I'm a fan of hybrid units, and I find them feeling better than ever in Three Houses.

I was generally thinking of "units that do magical damage in physical classes", via combat arts or magical weapons. I don't know if that counts as "hybrid" or if a "hybrid" unit must be able to do good damage on either side of the equation.

17 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

I haven't used Hanneman, but maybe Sniper and Grappler are just his best options. His support spell list is unimpressive with Recover and Ward, and while his Reason list has a lot going for it, I think the killing power is outclassed by Hunter's Volley and Fierce Iron Fist. If he ends up not dependent on Fierce Iron Fist, then War Monk is an alternative allowing him to use Aura Knuckles and have access to his spell list (e.g., Meteor linked attacks).

I'm gonna be harsh for a second, but - Grappler Hanneman sounds like a joke build. He joins with E Gauntlets, no earlier than chapter 8. He's neutral in them, so getting to A (or at least B+) will take him a... very long time. War Monk may be more attainable (B+ Brawl, C Faith), but note that he starts similarly low in Faith. And Aura Knuckles aren't usable until until A Gauntlets, so if you have him in physical classes before that point, he's doing (next to zero) physical damage. I'm not opposed to going for one of these, but let's not pretend it's at all optimal.

Compare to Sniper, for a second. He starts with C+ Bows right away, with a boon. So he could go Archer ASAP - but I'd say, first master Mage for Fiendish Blow, while training Bows in the background. By mage mastery, he can very realistically have B Bows (Magic Bow), so he can actually do damage in Archer. Once Archer is mastered (Hit +20 is always welcome), he'll likely be at least B+ in Bows, so certifying Sniper is doable. Or you can go for Sniper as soon as you hit B+, potentially missing out on Hit +20, but getting Hunter's Volley earlier.

Still, I think his best class is Warlock. He has one of the best Reason lists in the game (Wind is light and accurate; Thoron has 3-range; Sagittae has weirdly high uses for its might; Ragnarok is stronk; and Meteor is a siege tome). Black Tomefaire increases his damage output, while Black Magic Uses x2 give him more of his longer-range spells (Thoron, Meteor). That said, if you don't need the extra charges, and prefer more mobility instead, Dark Knight is a totally viable option as well.

17 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

Yeah, the post got long and I did not make an exhaustive list; I probably should have mentioned so explicitly. I focused on ones I had actually used and could speak better to. I did forget to mention in general that one of the nice things about magical combat artes is you can use weapon effects while attacking with magic. As in your example, anyone with Frozen Lance can mimic a melee Dark Spikes with a Horseslayer.

Most effects, that is - unfortunately, the Brave effect does not translate through magical combat arts. Imagine, if Lysithea were able to use Soulblade to strike twice with Thunderbrand! That said, I do find them the surest way to take down Armored and Cavalry units, at the very least.

[lenticular]

12 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I was generally thinking of "units that do magical damage in physical classes", via combat arts or magical weapons. I don't know if that counts as "hybrid" or if a "hybrid" unit must be able to do good damage on either side of the equation.

I've seen the term used both ways. I don't think it really matters too much which definition is used so long as it's consistent and everyone in a conversation is on the same page. I was going with the OP's definition of a character who uses both magic and strength in battle.

16 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm gonna be harsh for a second, but - Grappler Hanneman sounds like a joke build. He joins with E Gauntlets, no earlier than chapter 8. He's neutral in them, so getting to A (or at least B+) will take him a... very long time. War Monk may be more attainable (B+ Brawl, C Faith), but note that he starts similarly low in Faith. And Aura Knuckles aren't usable until until A Gauntlets, so if you have him in physical classes before that point, he's doing (next to zero) physical damage. I'm not opposed to going for one of these, but let's not pretend it's at all optimal.

Without NG+, I agree with this completely. With NG+, it's pretty simple to get him up to A rank gauntlets in a run where you aren't actually using him through a combination of passive training and deployment as an adjutant. On my NG+ chain file, I have pretty much everyone at least a bit trained this way in something weird or useless, because there's really no reason not to. If we're assuming NG+ and therefore discounting the pain of actually achieving the build, I can see the argument that this would be strong. I think I'd probably still prefer him in either warlock or sniper for the range but there's no denying that Aura Knuckles + FIF would put out some prodigious damage numbers.

[Shadow Mir]

On 5/21/2021 at 3:50 PM, FashionEmblem said:

I am happy to agree to disagree. If I may be so bold as to summarize your points, I believe you consider hybrid units to be outclassed high-investment gimmicks. I do not disagree with that assessment, but do think you can overcome the investment hurdle thanks to the game's features (particularly NG+) and I just find the outclassed gimmicks to be fun. Also, even though an individual hybrid build may sacrifice power for utility, you also build an entire team and might be planning to build in that power elsewhere in your deployment slots to justify the sacrifice. My Dark Knight Sylvain was a worse killer than Wyvern Lord Seteth and a significantly worse healer than Gremory Mercedes, but it was nice filling a single deployment slot with someone who could alternate between both roles as dictated by the tempo of battle.

That's precisely it. I find this to be a needless extravagance and a massive waste of time and investment that I could have spent investing in stuff that was actually worth investing in. And for what? For my physical units to do nothing that my dedicated mages couldn't already do? I'd be better going all in on physical with someone like Byleth than having them try to fulfill some half-assed magic knight role terribly.

On 5/21/2021 at 3:50 PM, FashionEmblem said:

I usually don't go for Mortal Savant in general, as I find Dark Knight achieves a similar task, sword-wielder with magic access, and I prefer the tradeoff of more movement and canto to Swordfaire. Felix's spell list is certainly shallow, but Thoron, Recover, Restore is more than just nothing, I suppose. Nowadays I rarely run sword Felix honestly, running him as Sniper, Bow Knight, Grappler, or Warmaster instead. In a Maddening NG+ CF playthrough I just finished, I went Grappler but did use his Reason budding talent for the Warlock base magic and stuck a Levin Sword on him for range. It was actually fairly effective for the task of clearing out armors and generally being able to attack beyond melee, if needed. I had previously used Felix as a Bow Knight, so aside from Authority he didn't gain too much from NG+ bonuses. At the very end I was able to get him Movement +1, but it was a minor buff on Chapter 17 and its terrain (I one-turned Chapter 18 with Edelgard, making Felix's participation moot).

If you wanted Felix to attack from range, why the hell would you not just give him a bow? Why gimp him by investing in magic?

On 5/21/2021 at 3:50 PM, FashionEmblem said:

I don't have the enemy stats in front of me for the armor effective weaponry vs. magic weapons, but anecdotally I have gotten these kills with magic weapons. I personally tend to specialize my units in a single weapon type, so lances, bows, and gauntlets have no real recourse against armor besides magic weapons (and for lances, effectively only in CF) or magic combat artes. For example, I have seen Sylvain unable to kill without a crit off Swift Strikes against Fortress Knights, but be able to one round them with Ragnarok (mind you, he can only do that once per map) or do a good chunk of damage with Bolganone, and magic also allows him to avoid Lancebreaker. Gauntlets also lack range so I have, for example, given a Levin Sword to a Grappler Felix—sometimes I just want him to get a kill from 9 tiles away instead of 7, and he can.

Agreed that Felix's spell list is shallow and therefore there is not much to support with his budding talent. Personally, if I train Felix in reason it is purely for the base magic from the Warlock promotion to use magic weapons.

The thing is, in general, I already have mages for anti-armor duties, and access to armorslayers and hammers just in case, so this does not help me whatsoever because, again, a bow allows me to attack from range, and in the case of Felix, doesn't force him to use a lower stat for attacking. It's why I tend to Heart Seal Camilla out of Malig Knight pretty much immediately in Fates - her magic is low enough compared to her strength that she's not guaranteed to do more damage just because she's attacking resistance. Also, overspecializing is just asking for trouble. And must I emphasize that all this is for ONE ENEMY TYPE?

On 5/21/2021 at 3:50 PM, FashionEmblem said:

Well, NG+ helps with the accumulation of Nuvelle Flier Corps opening up the options for more Dark Fliers, and not necessarily all Dark Fliers need a magic batallion. A Bernadetta Dark Flier, for example, for Physic/Rescue utility would still be best off attacking physically with Vengeance, and since battalions raise Magic Attack and not the base stat, it does nothing to increase her Rescue range so she has little need for it. Since I did not use DLC for that playthrough, I did just stick a physical flying battalion on Wyvern Annette and she did just fine. Her hit rates could be shaky at points, but I also didn't take any steps to mitigate that such as acquiring Hit +20 or Uncanny Blow (though Valkyrie would have been a big investment). Lightning Axe off an Iron Axe was usually a sufficient solution for her shaky hit rates and got a good number of kills. Actually, at least on Chapter 13, she was one of the better damage dealers because Byleth was waiting to activate Alert Stance and Dimitri was refilling his HP to allow dodge-tanking the hoards of speedy enemies.

It doesn't do much for the hit issues that are liable to plague the Bolt Axe and Crusher (in case you don't know, magic follows a different hit formula than physical weapons do; it takes the dexterity and luck stats and averages them out to get magic hit), as Nuvelle only gives 5 hit at max. Also, Annette is weak in bows, meaning getting Hit +20 means having to grapple with a weakness. 

On 5/21/2021 at 3:50 PM, FashionEmblem said:

I mention it as an aside in one sentence because it exists but isn't particularly impressive. It actually is 2 points of magic better (and 1 point on Sublime Heaven) to go through Reason/Warlock instead, but it's also more investment without the boon/budding talent. Similar to Felix's budding talent in Reason, I use it to train faster for a stat boost on promotion, if at all. Ashe has a weakness in reason but is neutral in Faith so can work at a magic stat that way instead. I've generally been pleasantly surprised with Ashe's magic stat even without a promotion base stat. I think it's the confluence of his low strength, so his magic, while lower, still does good damage when targeting resistance, and the general power of Hunter's Volley. Cyril definitely has banes in both reason and faith. I think a Magic Bow Cyril either needs to get lucky off his 35% growth or needs NG+ so you can train his Reason despite the bane.

Doesn't change the fact that this is about as useful as tits on a bull.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Barren]

I’ve actually gotten Wyvern Rider Annette to work thus far on my Blue Lions maddening run. Mainly because I’m doing a number of things like giving her an accuracy ring for the hit +10. Yes the Nuvelle Flying Co. doesn’t offer much of a hit rate but it’s only magical flying battalion available for her in this class.
 

I’m also taking advantage of the linked attack system where if she has allies that are nearby her like Gilbert and Mercedes, they give her not only a boost in hit/avoid but in those cases, higher might. Lancebreaker also helps her with Paladins as well. Once she is a Wyvern Lord and gets Alert Stance+, she’ll be reliable at dodging at least against other lance users. 
 

Admittedly this is a rather strange build for her, but with axefaire and lightning axe, she can destroy fortress knights, snipers, and even warriors with hammer+, silver axe+ or even the axe of ukonvasara. I can show off a screen shot of her progress thus far if anyone is interested.

[SnowFire]

As others have noted, the issue with Hybrid units is that skill slots are incredibly precious in 3H.  Setting just one Prowess is ideal, and "true" Hybrid units frequently want to set 2 or even 3 Prowesses.  Then you have your Death Blow, Fiendish Blow, St r+2, Mag+2, type slots.  And then there's really key utility like Hit +20, Darting Blow, X-Breaker, and so on.  It's just hard to find room.  Now, luckily, the opportunity cost of throwing a Levin Sword+ / Bolt Axe+ onto a unit is generally quite low, but I'm not sure I'd really hype that as being a "Hybrid" unit.  As others have pointed out, this isn't like Fates where lots of characters' magic scores are extremely bad rendering Bolt Naginata's damage meme-y if not used by say Azama or the like.  Lots of units can blast Armor Knights / Fortress Knights good with a magic weapon.  That's helpful, but enemy armors aren't often the biggest threat on a map, so I'd question some vanilla Edelgard build in Warrior or Wyvern Lord as being a true hybrid unit just because she lugs around a Bolt Axe for armors.  (A true Edelgard Hybrid build would be Mortal Savant...  and I think most would agree that while funny, it's weaker than just emphasizing physical damage.)

On the flip side, for magical units going physical...  I think I had Hapi Tempest Lance a high-resistance unit once for giggles, and magical Wyvern Riders like Annette can occasionally go for physical damage against Bishops or the like, but it's not commonly important.  Since their skill loadout is probably maximizing Frozen Lance / Lightning Axe / Soulblade / Hexblade / etc., it takes a truly lopsidedly high-resistance character for falling back to physicals to make sense, and the kind of units that have high resistance and terrible defense all have low HP too (Bishops, Warlocks) so you can always fall back to smashing them with a Gambit worst comes to worst.  So yeah, you can get a little use from it, but it's not all that important on the mages-using-physical-damage angle.

For NG+, I think that already messes with balance because you're firmly in "how badly do you want to break the game" territory, but the main thing I'd note there is that S+ weapon ranks for *Faires help a lot.  For example, Manuela sorta wants to be a mixed damage Trickster or Mortal Savant, but has questionable damage.  She's one of the units that most values Swordfaire, which is an unconditional +5 to all her damage styles, rather than Fiendish Blow or Mag +2 and so on.  And yet her late training start in NG, along with a Reason bane, mean that this totally isn't happening without broken weapon Knowledge Gem aux battle grinding.  (To a lesser extent, you can imagine similar issues for Wyvern Lord Annette, Mortal Savant Yuri, etc.)  Since hybrid units frequently want to go the route of emphasizing their weapon prowess but having access to Levin Sword / Bolt Axe / Magic Bow / Aura Knuckles, getting a Faire is very, very nice.

[vanguard333]

I feel that hybrid units work best when one thing is their main offense (be it physical or magic) and the other is for utility.

For an example of what I mean, I usually make my Byleth go into the Enlightened One class, and I actually prefer to have my Byleth learn white magic rather than gauntlets. Byleth's white magic pool is nothing special at all, but the cool thing is having a front-line unit that's also able to heal others. Taking this further, even though my Byleth usually has a worse magic stat than physical stat, I still find it worth it to give him a Levin Sword+ for 1-3 range. This means I can invest Byleth entirely in physical-oriented skills while getting some extra utility out of his magic.

This is the kind of hybrid build I can see as useful: the unit mainly focuses on one, but the other is able to supplement them or provide extra utility rather than divide their focus.

[Barren]

5 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I feel that hybrid units work best when one thing is their main offense (be it physical or magic) and the other is for utility.

For an example of what I mean, I usually make my Byleth go into the Enlightened One class, and I actually prefer to have my Byleth learn white magic rather than gauntlets. Byleth's white magic pool is nothing special at all, but the cool thing is having a front-line unit that's also able to heal others. Taking this further, even though my Byleth usually has a worse magic stat than physical stat, I still find it worth it to give him a Levin Sword+ for 1-3 range. This means I can invest Byleth entirely in physical-oriented skills while getting some extra utility out of his magic.

This is the kind of hybrid build I can see as useful: the unit mainly focuses on one, but the other is able to supplement them or provide extra utility rather than divide their focus.

I think I can agree to Enlightened One being the more well versed hybrid class because even if for example you take male  Byleth to War Master, master it for Quick Riposte, you can bring this to the EO class so that he would never get doubled as long as he’s above 50% HP.
 

Not to mention that this is a better version of mortal savant in a sense that you at least won’t have to worry about a negative growth to one of your stats. 6 move and swordfaire while mediocre or bad compared to let’s say axefaire, canto, avoid + 10, and 8 move. At least like you said he can heal with recover which can be useful in a pinch. 

Sacred Power is another neat ability that is only good if you’re using the linked attack mechanic where adjacent allies gain stat boosts. This can work incredibly well with the lord classes as they can buff each other, assuming a non crimson flower route, flayn can serve as a tank support with her PA, Seteth as well assuming you’re female byleth or Hilda if you’re male. But not everyone uses it because sometimes they just either position these said units elset, not use them or use a different ability altogether.

[FashionEmblem]

On 5/21/2021 at 7:10 PM, Agro said:

I think hybrid builds work really in late Part 1 and early Part 2, to a certain extent. Cavalier Hubert with Fiendish Blow and Frozen Lance is really fun and he will 1-shot just about everything that he looks at with a Magic Staff until the later CF chapters, at which point he can switch over to Dark Knight and provide battalion support through his monstrous Charm stat and Resonant Flames/Ice/Lightning whatever, as well as occasional Banshee and Dark Spikes. Same goes for Pegasus Knight Annette with Lightning Axe.

I now think that Paladin is a better advanced tier promotion for Hubert than Dark Bishop. Dark Bishop gets him ... 10 more uses of Miasma, innate Fiendish Blow (which can't be stacked with a mastered Fiendish Blow, nor are mages typically lacking in skill slots at level 20), Heartseeker (which has to work in conjunction with 4 movement), and Lifetaker (which isn't particularly helpful for a squishy mage who is usually dead if they see enemy phase combat). Paladin gives Hubert 8 move and Canto, he does good damage with Frozen Lance, and it helps him build riding rank on the way to Dark Knight. Pegasus Knight Annette also sounds fun after you've mastered Fiendish Blow from Mage (or instead of, if buying Fiendish Blow with NG+)

On 5/21/2021 at 7:10 PM, Agro said:

I can see Dark Knight Sylvain running into some significant speed issues in the lategame, however, so what is he going to be able to do other than chip magic damage?

I don't think his speed issues are any worse than Paladin Sylvain, though he does give up 1 Strength and class Lancefaire. He relies on Swift Strikes for player-phase damage so his speed isn't relevant there (the loss of 12 damage relative to Paladin does hurt though) but he will have issues with enemy-phase tanking when getting doubled a lot. Still, I find most everyone gets doubled in Maddening outside a specific speedster build (e.g., Assassin Yuri) and your best bet is dodge-tanking. In that case, Sylvain's best choice would be Wyvern Lord because he picks up Alert Stance+ with his Flying rank, though I'd say he's notably outclassed in that role by characters like Petra, Ingrid, and Ferdinand.

On 5/21/2021 at 8:21 PM, lenticular said:

I broadly agree with the assessment of "usable but not optimal", but I'll add one thing that Three Houses has which I think fairly strongly discourage hybrid attackers. That's the degree of specialisation that the game encourages through skills and -- to a lesser extent -- items. If you have a character who primarily attacks with magic then you're probably going to give them fiendish blow, and might also have magic +2 and a magic staff. Even assuming a magic stat that is a fairly modest 5 points higher than strength stat, that turns into +16 more might on a magic attack than a physical one. Depending on cicrcumstances, there may even be a -faire skill involved to even further stack the deck. There might still be occasional niche circumstances where using a brave axe to attack a pegasus knight is still the best choice, but they're going to be extremely rare.

Agreed, your hybrid will likely not match up in power against being specialized. It's more that occasionally the opportunity may present itself, as in your Pegasus Knight example; you might approach a map by splitting up your army, making your specialized units spread thin; or you're still attacking as primarily one type, but like having back pocket spell utility occasionally (e.g., Sylvain's Physic, Bernadetta's Rescue).

On 5/22/2021 at 10:30 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm gonna be harsh for a second, but - Grappler Hanneman sounds like a joke build. He joins with E Gauntlets, no earlier than chapter 8. He's neutral in them, so getting to A (or at least B+) will take him a... very long time. War Monk may be more attainable (B+ Brawl, C Faith), but note that he starts similarly low in Faith. And Aura Knuckles aren't usable until until A Gauntlets, so if you have him in physical classes before that point, he's doing (next to zero) physical damage. I'm not opposed to going for one of these, but let's not pretend it's at all optimal.

Compare to Sniper, for a second. He starts with C+ Bows right away, with a boon. So he could go Archer ASAP - but I'd say, first master Mage for Fiendish Blow, while training Bows in the background. By mage mastery, he can very realistically have B Bows (Magic Bow), so he can actually do damage in Archer. Once Archer is mastered (Hit +20 is always welcome), he'll likely be at least B+ in Bows, so certifying Sniper is doable. Or you can go for Sniper as soon as you hit B+, potentially missing out on Hit +20, but getting Hunter's Volley earlier.

Still, I think his best class is Warlock. He has one of the best Reason lists in the game (Wind is light and accurate; Thoron has 3-range; Sagittae has weirdly high uses for its might; Ragnarok is stronk; and Meteor is a siege tome). Black Tomefaire increases his damage output, while Black Magic Uses x2 give him more of his longer-range spells (Thoron, Meteor). That said, if you don't need the extra charges, and prefer more mobility instead, Dark Knight is a totally viable option as well.

No worries about being harsh, I've never used Hanneman nor intend to, so I was thinking rather off the cuff about a fists build for Hanneman. Agreed that Sniper with Magic Bow is much better than fists thanks to the lower investment, but fists do provide, in theory, another way around his atrocious speed to increase his damage output relative to a mage class. If you make him a Brawler to boost his gauntlet proficiency as an adjutant, at least that also turns him into a Guard Adjutant.

Hanneman as a mage really doesn't work for me because he lacks utility in his spell list. Anyone in my army can kill things, but only my units in magic classes can also provide utility in Physic, Warp, Rescue, and Restore (and, more niche, Silence and Fortify), which Hanneman gets none of. His Reason spell list is nearly identical to Dorothea's, but notably he misses Physic on the Faith side. Hanneman certainly hits stronger than Dorothea, but I do wonder if he ends up with issues killing armors if he can't double them with heavier spells, which I think is the one job a dedicated offensive mage should be able to do consistently (I've also had this issue with Hapi, for example, but she's also primarily my Physic/Warp bot). I find him outclassed by Dorothea in providing Meteor linked supports due to her support pool, and as a magical nuke by Lysithea and Constance who get Warp and Rescue, respectively. Also as a male mage he lacks access to useful magic classes: Gremory, Dark Flier, and Valkyrie. Warlock is great for using Meteor ... twice per map, otherwise you are stuck in 4 movement. I'm not sure why 4 movement bothers me so much more than the 5 movement of Gremory, but it does—also why I end up using Hapi over Linhardt, even if Bishop has innately stronger heals. Dark Knight as an ending point for Hanneman is fine thanks to the mobility boost, but I still find him overall unimpressive for the reasons I listed. I actually might rather use Dark Flier Dorothea even though she's much weaker, because flier (honestly, I almost always relegate her to Dancer Meteor support because of her power issues, but unlike Hanneman that niche gets her a spot on my team).

A bit of a ramble on my part, but to summarize Hanneman's lack of magical support and speed makes me inclined to consider magic weapon builds that allow him to double. Sniper is the most obvious choice and easiest to build towards, fisticuffs could be fun but you have to work against his late join time. Honestly though, I never use him.

23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

If you wanted Felix to attack from range, why the hell would you not just give him a bow? Why gimp him by investing in magic?

Well, if he's not a dedicated bow-user, he probably doesn't waste a skill slot on Close Combat. In that case he's left completely vulnerable at melee range unless you use the Mini Bow. Maddening Three Houses is very player-phase focused outside Vantage/Wrath and Alert Stance tanking, so lacking the melee counterattack is usually not a big deal, but it is a difference (maybe you get a counter attack against a same-turn reinforcement you weren't planning against, or maybe the AI prioritizes that attack since you can't counter with a bow leading to death). Magic weapons also get 3 ranged combat when forged, and can still double when doing so, unlike Curved Shot. Maddening's inflated enemy speed also makes doubling hard, but Felix is actually quite fast.

The extent to which you "gimp" a character depends on what else you are trying to do with them that you have to sacrifice as opportunity cost. A Grappler or Sniper Felix just has to focus on Gauntlets/Bows and Authority, after picking up Axes/Bows to D+ for Death Blow/Hit +20. He has a bane in authority to work against, but as such he's a good candidate to just get him up to C authority and equip him from a good battalion from that pool. For example, Felix makes a great candidate for the lord battalions once your lord has higher authority and can equip other good stuff. A War Master or Bow Knight Felix needs more weapon ranks, and will feel the opportunity cost of raising Reason more, so it becomes less appealing.

23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The thing is, in general, I already have mages for anti-armor duties, and access to armorslayers and hammers just in case, so this does not help me whatsoever because, again, a bow allows me to attack from range, and in the case of Felix, doesn't force him to use a lower stat for attacking. It's why I tend to Heart Seal Camilla out of Malig Knight pretty much immediately in Fates - her magic is low enough compared to her strength that she's not guaranteed to do more damage just because she's attacking resistance. Also, overspecializing is just asking for trouble. And must I emphasize that all this is for ONE ENEMY TYPE?

Yeah, when you have your whole squad then diluting a character into a hybrid loses appeal fast because someone else can achieve the goal. I'd say the value changes depending on the maps and how much you split your army. Take the Fhirdiad map in Azure Moon where the game starts your army split in 3 sections and, especially on lower difficulties, encourages you to maintain the split (or 2/3 paths). I did that map on Maddening with a 3 army split in part because Sylvain could help against Armors on one path while I had Lysithea focused on breaking barriers of the Titanus in the middle. Sylvain gets Seraphim as well, so I could have flipped their roles and had an easier time against the armors, but it was also nice to do more damage to big monster HP pools off Lysithea's better magic.

I bring up Fortress Knights because of the large disparity in their Defense vs. Resistance. You're correct that the typical hybrid unit won't have the magic stat to kill off other enemies with higher resistance, such as Paladins. Continuing to use Sylvain as my example, that's when he turns to Swift Strikes, which is also 95% of the combat he does anyways. It's a bit weaker than Paladin Sylvain (6 points per hit, not insubstantial), but if that strength differential went into overkilling, now I have a unit that can both kill consistently and provide occasional different utility such as Physic or Seraphim. Of course, I also have the flexibility to reclass him on a whim depending on what the map entails in Three Houses.

23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

It doesn't do much for the hit issues that are liable to plague the Bolt Axe and Crusher (in case you don't know, magic follows a different hit formula than physical weapons do; it takes the dexterity and luck stats and averages them out to get magic hit), as Nuvelle only gives 5 hit at max. Also, Annette is weak in bows, meaning getting Hit +20 means having to grapple with a weakness. 

So relative to mage Annette, Wyvern Annette trades off accuracy for power and some mobility (the mobility gulf is quite high for Warlocks and Gremories, but narrows for Dark Fliers and Dark Knights). I valued that trade-off because her accuracy was good enough under a 2RN system and she could actually get substantially more kills off the stronger axes than her unimpressive spell list. I find mage Annette ends up on the bench and Wyvern Annette does have a place in my army.

I'm not sure Annette has substantially more hit issues than any other axe user? The hit formula is different, but magic also ignores terrain avoid bonuses; probably a good part of the reason Wyvern Annette did quite well for me in Chapter 13 with its many forested tiles. Maybe the issue is that you can't simultaneously boost magical attack and hit with battalions for fliers, unlike physical attack? That is true, no Macuil Evil Repelling Corps. for fliers, but like I said I stuck a physical battalion on her and she did fine despite that. I'm sure she could have appreciated more magic power from her battalion, but often time I think that gets shuffled into the overkill territory. She has an authority boon, and thus an easier time getting to Cichol Wyverns which substantially help Hit.

Looking it up, these are some notable axe hit rates:

• Iron Axe+:  75
• Silver Axe+:  70
• Killer Axe+:  70
• Brave Axe(+):  60 (70)
• Bolt Axe+:  60
• Amyr:  60
• Freikugel:  65
• Crusher:  60

Honestly, a lot of axe users are slower and later game are going to end up relying on Brave Axes to secure kills on Maddening, which have the same hit as Bolt Axe+ and Crusher. Only counterexample that comes to mind is a Wyvern Lord Petra, who can double with an Iron Axe+, especially if supported by Darting Blow. But even she struggles when needing to use a stronger and heavier axe and dips into a Brave Axe as well. Although Brave Axe can be forged for 10 better hit, Wootz Steel is in limited supply, so you may not end up able to do so.

Lots of axe boon character in Three Houses have a bane in bows, about half of them glancing at the list. I figured this was an intentional game-balance choice to disincentivize Hit +20 to ameliorate the main disadvantage of axes as a weapon type (the ones neutral/boon/budding talent in bows are mostly weaker speedier characters like Petra, or characters that won't end up using axes anyways like Claude and Ferdinand). In hindsight, I still think it's worth it to pick up Hit +20 despite that bane since D+ is not a very big investment.

14 hours ago, SnowFire said:

As others have pointed out, this isn't like Fates where lots of characters' magic scores are extremely bad rendering Bolt Naginata's damage meme-y if not used by say Azama or the like.  Lots of units can blast Armor Knights / Fortress Knights good with a magic weapon.  That's helpful, but enemy armors aren't often the biggest threat on a map, so I'd question some vanilla Edelgard build in Warrior or Wyvern Lord as being a true hybrid unit just because she lugs around a Bolt Axe for armors.  (A true Edelgard Hybrid build would be Mortal Savant...  and I think most would agree that while funny, it's weaker than just emphasizing physical damage.)

I would consider that a hybrid since she attacks off both strength and magic, but the disagreement here is just semantic. Dark Flier and Dark Knight Edelgard are also options that make use of her good spell list. I'm not convinced the power trade-off is worth it since it's rather substantial (Dark Flier loses 9 damage on physical axe attacks relative to Wyvern Lord) and her spell list doesn't have any support that appeals to me (Seraphim is cool for monster breaking, but I think Crimson Flower has you fighting a lot less monsters besides Chapter 17 and Hubert's paralogue). Still, I imagine there's a space for being able to run Edelgard's Luna spell, which is a niche only shared with Lysithea.

14 hours ago, SnowFire said:

For NG+, I think that already messes with balance because you're firmly in "how badly do you want to break the game" territory, but the main thing I'd note there is that S+ weapon ranks for *Faires help a lot.  For example, Manuela sorta wants to be a mixed damage Trickster or Mortal Savant, but has questionable damage.  She's one of the units that most values Swordfaire, which is an unconditional +5 to all her damage styles, rather than Fiendish Blow or Mag +2 and so on.  And yet her late training start in NG, along with a Reason bane, mean that this totally isn't happening without broken weapon Knowledge Gem aux battle grinding.  (To a lesser extent, you can imagine similar issues for Wyvern Lord Annette, Mortal Savant Yuri, etc.)  Since hybrid units frequently want to go the route of emphasizing their weapon prowess but having access to Levin Sword / Bolt Axe / Magic Bow / Aura Knuckles, getting a Faire is very, very nice.

Yeah, I've always had issues getting Manuela to work without NG+ and grinding, which is a shame because I really like her character. Inheriting S+ Swords from a previous file with broken weapon rank grinding (or, just clearing that playthrough on Normal difficulty for infinite grinding), alongside A reason and A faith and needed skills (Fiendish Blow, Darting Blow, Uncanny Blow, etc.) is probably for her best. She can use Levin Sword and Hexblade for her main combat, shoot off a couple of Boltings supported by Uncanny Blow, and has Warp and Silence utility. Even though I've set her up for mainly magic attack here, her strength stat probably doesn't end up much worse than in-house Ingrid if you want to put in some occasional physical work (Brave Sword is cool). It's a neat little package that is very hard to pull off with her late join and Reason bane. She loses some power, but I find Dark Flier a great class for her and the mobility, and Alert Stance synergizes well with her speed.

[vanguard333]

8 hours ago, Barren said:

I think I can agree to Enlightened One being the more well versed hybrid class because even if for example you take male  Byleth to War Master, master it for Quick Riposte, you can bring this to the EO class so that he would never get doubled as long as he’s above 50% HP.
 

Not to mention that this is a better version of mortal savant in a sense that you at least won’t have to worry about a negative growth to one of your stats. 6 move and swordfaire while mediocre or bad compared to let’s say axefaire, canto, avoid + 10, and 8 move. At least like you said he can heal with recover which can be useful in a pinch. 

Sacred Power is another neat ability that is only good if you’re using the linked attack mechanic where adjacent allies gain stat boosts. This can work incredibly well with the lord classes as they can buff each other, assuming a non crimson flower route, flayn can serve as a tank support with her PA, Seteth as well assuming you’re female byleth or Hilda if you’re male. But not everyone uses it because sometimes they just either position these said units elset, not use them or use a different ability altogether.

Interesting. As I said, I have yet to actually try a gauntlet Byleth since I usually just have him use swords. My thought with Byleth was that, since he can have grounder and bane of monsters as combat arts and his proficiency in swords also lends well to giving him a forged rapier, he can counter pretty much everything that can be countered. I might have to try a gauntlet Byleth one of these days for one of my playthroughs.

Yeah; it is better than mortal savant. Byleth's spell list isn't good, so you wouldn't want him using offensive spells anyway. In that case, terrain resistance is a much better class ability for Byleth than black tomefaire, even if terrain resistance is extremely situational.

Sacred power does tend to come up a fair bit in my playthroughs since my Byleth is never on his own; he's always near other units, and I usually give him a 1-3 range forged Levin Sword, so linked attacks and gambit boosts happen a lot. So it has been rather neat in that regard.

 

1 hour ago, FashionEmblem said:

Agreed, your hybrid will likely not match up in power against being specialized. It's more that occasionally the opportunity may present itself, as in your Pegasus Knight example; you might approach a map by splitting up your army, making your specialized units spread thin; or you're still attacking as primarily one type, but like having back pocket spell utility occasionally (e.g., Sylvain's Physic, Bernadetta's Rescue).

Yeah; I agree with this as well. The only kinds of hybrids I see as useful are the ones where, rather than trying to have both physical offense and magical offense, they instead use one form of offense and then the other provides some form of utility. That, and/or I just give them one of the magic weapons for the 1-3 range.

I have yet to use Sylvain so I can't vouch for having him be able to use physic, and while I have used Bernadetta, I've never even considered using her for rescue. I mainly use her because she's a great archer, and there isn't a class that can use magic that is also good for bows. 

I can see that argument that hybrids would be useful for if you approach a map by splitting up units, but in my experience, I have approached maps by splitting up my units a lot, and I haven't really experienced a need for a proper hybrid unit. I've usually divided my army so that units with different specialties stay close together, and when I haven't, it's usually for a reason, like I'm sending all my flying units somewhere only they can get to or something like that. I've never experienced a moment where I'm thinking, "If only I could've sent a magical unit this way" or anything like that.

[Dark Holy Elf]

As far as hybrid units go as defined here, I'm a big fan of Sylvain as one. Yeah, you can make him a pure Swift Strikes bot as a paladin or wyvern, but I find this a bit one-dimensional... built this way, I end up comparing him to Petra or Ingrid or Ferdinand who can dodgetank better while having almost as much offence... or even more, depending on the speed of the enemies you're facing in Petra/Ingrid's cases.

But as a Dark Knight, Sylvain can do things that your vanilla physical offence characters can't. He can support with Physic, he can break monster barriers at range with Seraphim, and he can bait and counter archers easily (my opinion of this went down a bit after I started using Retribution more, but it's still nice), he can one-round armour knights from range... and on top of all that, he can still kill squishier enemies and cavalry with Swift Strikes. The power loss feels largely worth it to me. And of course, it's not like you can't switch back over to Paladin for a map if you desperately want a bit more punch.

Bernadetta's a somewhat interesting one too, though I've never tried her as one. She has a neat faith list, and should still be able to kill with Vengeance well as a Dark Knight, Valkyrie, or Dark Flier.

I also tend to regard any character who primarily uses their magic stats in a "physical" job to be a hybrid as well, though they aren't one by the definition in the original post. In this case I'll mention that some characters with a magical combat art and shaky spell lists or class options (Lorenz, Annette, Hubert in Advanced tier) may benefit from just making them a paladin or wyvern midgame to maximize their raw damage and mobility. Lysithea, Dorothea, and Marianne can also pull this off, although their spell list tradeoffs are greater. And Hanneman/Mercedes are decent candidates for magical sniper, which does extremely high damage once you can finally get enough Arcane Crystals to power it (since it chews through Magic Bows really fast... I actually had two of them equipped just so I wouldn't run out!). It's not worth it on Crimson Flower IMO, but interesting on other routes, especially for Hanneman who, as mentioned, isn't giving away much utility (mainly Meteor links, which while cool are a bit team-dependent).

[Agro]

On 5/24/2021 at 1:29 AM, FashionEmblem said:

Wootz Steel is in limited supply, so you may not end up able to do so.

Just wanted to chime in here - Wootz Steel is really not that limited. You get at least a few from Ignatz/Raphael's paralogue, and more from Byleth's if you hang around for just a little bit. Even more from Marianne's paralogue in Part 2, which is really when you'll start getting more Brave weapons. 

On 5/24/2021 at 3:35 AM, vanguard333 said:

As I said, I have yet to actually try a gauntlet Byleth since I usually just have him use swords.

Gauntlet Byleth is super useful in earlygame! Especially for niche situations like ORKOing the Dark Mage in Chapter 3 so you can clear the fog.

[vanguard333]

6 hours ago, Agro said:

Gauntlet Byleth is super useful in earlygame! Especially for niche situations like ORKOing the Dark Mage in Chapter 3 so you can clear the fog.

Interesting. I've never really had any problem ORKOing that dark mage to my recollection, but it has been quite some time so I could easily be misremembering, and, as I said, I haven't played Maddening; only normal and hard.

[Shadow Mir]

On 5/23/2021 at 2:55 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

As far as hybrid units go as defined here, I'm a big fan of Sylvain as one. Yeah, you can make him a pure Swift Strikes bot as a paladin or wyvern, but I find this a bit one-dimensional... built this way, I end up comparing him to Petra or Ingrid or Ferdinand who can dodgetank better while having almost as much offence... or even more, depending on the speed of the enemies you're facing in Petra/Ingrid's cases.

But as a Dark Knight, Sylvain can do things that your vanilla physical offence characters can't. He can support with Physic, he can break monster barriers at range with Seraphim, and he can bait and counter archers easily (my opinion of this went down a bit after I started using Retribution more, but it's still nice), he can one-round armour knights from range... and on top of all that, he can still kill squishier enemies and cavalry with Swift Strikes. The power loss feels largely worth it to me. And of course, it's not like you can't switch back over to Paladin for a map if you desperately want a bit more punch.

Bernadetta's a somewhat interesting one too, though I've never tried her as one. She has a neat faith list, and should still be able to kill with Vengeance well as a Dark Knight, Valkyrie, or Dark Flier.

Aren't you bothered by how much investment this needs? I know I am, considering Dark Knight is rather underwhelming imho. Also, making Sylvain suffer Lorenz-itis is NOT an improvement; sure, it'd suck for him to be outclassed by Petra or whoever, but allowing him to do a variety of roles but be outclassed by someone else no matter what he does is even worse. 

On 5/22/2021 at 9:52 PM, SnowFire said:

this isn't like Fates where lots of characters' magic scores are extremely bad rendering Bolt Naginata's damage meme-y if not used by say Azama or the like.  Lots of units can blast Armor Knights / Fortress Knights good with a magic weapon. 

What makes you say that? Because most advanced classes have 8 base magic, which is not a lot.

On 5/23/2021 at 12:29 PM, FashionEmblem said:

Yeah, when you have your whole squad then diluting a character into a hybrid loses appeal fast because someone else can achieve the goal. I'd say the value changes depending on the maps and how much you split your army. Take the Fhirdiad map in Azure Moon where the game starts your army split in 3 sections and, especially on lower difficulties, encourages you to maintain the split (or 2/3 paths). I did that map on Maddening with a 3 army split in part because Sylvain could help against Armors on one path while I had Lysithea focused on breaking barriers of the Titanus in the middle. Sylvain gets Seraphim as well, so I could have flipped their roles and had an easier time against the armors, but it was also nice to do more damage to big monster HP pools off Lysithea's better magic.

I bring up Fortress Knights because of the large disparity in their Defense vs. Resistance. You're correct that the typical hybrid unit won't have the magic stat to kill off other enemies with higher resistance, such as Paladins. Continuing to use Sylvain as my example, that's when he turns to Swift Strikes, which is also 95% of the combat he does anyways. It's a bit weaker than Paladin Sylvain (6 points per hit, not insubstantial), but if that strength differential went into overkilling, now I have a unit that can both kill consistently and provide occasional different utility such as Physic or Seraphim. Of course, I also have the flexibility to reclass him on a whim depending on what the map entails in Three Houses.

I'd consider it unappealing nonetheless, because again, everyone loves emphasizing Death Blow and Fiendish Blow. And I don't consider picking up both practical at all.

On 5/23/2021 at 12:29 PM, FashionEmblem said:

So relative to mage Annette, Wyvern Annette trades off accuracy for power and some mobility (the mobility gulf is quite high for Warlocks and Gremories, but narrows for Dark Fliers and Dark Knights). I valued that trade-off because her accuracy was good enough under a 2RN system and she could actually get substantially more kills off the stronger axes than her unimpressive spell list. I find mage Annette ends up on the bench and Wyvern Annette does have a place in my army.

I'm not sure Annette has substantially more hit issues than any other axe user? The hit formula is different, but magic also ignores terrain avoid bonuses; probably a good part of the reason Wyvern Annette did quite well for me in Chapter 13 with its many forested tiles. Maybe the issue is that you can't simultaneously boost magical attack and hit with battalions for fliers, unlike physical attack? That is true, no Macuil Evil Repelling Corps. for fliers, but like I said I stuck a physical battalion on her and she did fine despite that. I'm sure she could have appreciated more magic power from her battalion, but often time I think that gets shuffled into the overkill territory. She has an authority boon, and thus an easier time getting to Cichol Wyverns which substantially help Hit.

Looking it up, these are some notable axe hit rates:

• Iron Axe+:  75
• Silver Axe+:  70
• Killer Axe+:  70
• Brave Axe(+):  60 (70)
• Bolt Axe+:  60
• Amyr:  60
• Freikugel:  65
• Crusher:  60

Honestly, a lot of axe users are slower and later game are going to end up relying on Brave Axes to secure kills on Maddening, which have the same hit as Bolt Axe+ and Crusher. Only counterexample that comes to mind is a Wyvern Lord Petra, who can double with an Iron Axe+, especially if supported by Darting Blow. But even she struggles when needing to use a stronger and heavier axe and dips into a Brave Axe as well. Although Brave Axe can be forged for 10 better hit, Wootz Steel is in limited supply, so you may not end up able to do so.

Lots of axe boon character in Three Houses have a bane in bows, about half of them glancing at the list. I figured this was an intentional game-balance choice to disincentivize Hit +20 to ameliorate the main disadvantage of axes as a weapon type (the ones neutral/boon/budding talent in bows are mostly weaker speedier characters like Petra, or characters that won't end up using axes anyways like Claude and Ferdinand). In hindsight, I still think it's worth it to pick up Hit +20 despite that bane since D+ is not a very big investment.

The problem with that assessment is that the magic hit formula averages two stats out to get hit rates... and luck is generally going to be lower than dexterity for most units (Fun fact: Only two characters in the game have luck growths higher than 50%). Second, giving Annette Cichol when she's likely going to be using magic attacks is a colossal waste when I could've given it to someone who'll actually be putting the +7 physical attack to use. I already find Wyvern Annette a VERY questionable decision, but this is shooting myself in the foot even more. If I have to make a very poor decision for Wvvern Annette to be useful, that tells me she isn't.

On 5/23/2021 at 12:29 PM, FashionEmblem said:

Well, if he's not a dedicated bow-user, he probably doesn't waste a skill slot on Close Combat. In that case he's left completely vulnerable at melee range unless you use the Mini Bow. Maddening Three Houses is very player-phase focused outside Vantage/Wrath and Alert Stance tanking, so lacking the melee counterattack is usually not a big deal, but it is a difference (maybe you get a counter attack against a same-turn reinforcement you weren't planning against, or maybe the AI prioritizes that attack since you can't counter with a bow leading to death). Magic weapons also get 3 ranged combat when forged, and can still double when doing so, unlike Curved Shot. Maddening's inflated enemy speed also makes doubling hard, but Felix is actually quite fast.

The extent to which you "gimp" a character depends on what else you are trying to do with them that you have to sacrifice as opportunity cost. A Grappler or Sniper Felix just has to focus on Gauntlets/Bows and Authority, after picking up Axes/Bows to D+ for Death Blow/Hit +20. He has a bane in authority to work against, but as such he's a good candidate to just get him up to C authority and equip him from a good battalion from that pool. For example, Felix makes a great candidate for the lord battalions once your lord has higher authority and can equip other good stuff. A War Master or Bow Knight Felix needs more weapon ranks, and will feel the opportunity cost of raising Reason more, so it becomes less appealing.

It's not about Close Counter so much as it is about safely attacking my opponent, particularly in the earlygame (missing a melee attack against a thief and getting doubled in return would be a really shitty experience). And magic weapons tend to not have the best hit rates, I find (not to mention that in practice, I can't necessarily expect to do more damage just because I'm attacking resistance when my unit's magic stat is much lower then their strength, except against select enemy types that are not that common).

Edited May 28, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Dark Holy Elf]

47 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Aren't you bothered by how much investment this needs? I know I am, considering Dark Knight is rather underwhelming imho. Also, making Sylvain suffer Lorenz-itis is NOT an improvement; sure, it'd suck for him to be outclassed by Petra or whoever, but allowing him to do a variety of roles but be outclassed by someone else no matter what he does is even worse. 

I'm not sure why you think this needs so much investment? It's the bog standard Dark Knight, just with A in lances, and Sylvain has boons in every relevant skill for the build except Faith (which only needs to go to C, then B for some monster-heavy maps lategame). It's not as low-investment as a standard Sniper, but it's hardly out of line for a 3H build.

Unlike Lorenz, Sylvain has Physic, Seraphim, and Swift Strikes for low-def enemies and cavalry - he's a lot better than Lorenz IMO. I find Physic in particular almost singlehandedly makes a unit useful.

[FashionEmblem]

On 5/24/2021 at 5:36 PM, Agro said:

Just wanted to chime in here - Wootz Steel is really not that limited. You get at least a few from Ignatz/Raphael's paralogue, and more from Byleth's if you hang around for just a little bit. Even more from Marianne's paralogue in Part 2, which is really when you'll start getting more Brave weapons. 

This is true, but it does make it more limited outside Golden Deer if you aren't recruiting. Ignatz is pretty much a free recruit, requiring Authority you want to build up anyways, but Marianne, whose paralogue does the most for making Wootz Steel available, does require investing in her support or Byleth's magic and Riding.

The other thing I want to mention is that forging a brave weapon costs 3 times as much material than merely repairing them. How many forged brave weapons you can get in a playthrough will depend on recruitment and breaking the enemy barriers, and how many you are using in parallel that end up needing durability increases. However, if you are using Swift Strikes, Hunter's Volley, and Point-Blank Volley then the importance of Brave Lances and Bows goes down. Using Thunderbrand also relieves the need for Brave Swords. So, Brave Axes probably do end up being the best target for dedicating the resources to forging rather than merely repairing them.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd consider it unappealing nonetheless, because again, everyone loves emphasizing Death Blow and Fiendish Blow. And I don't consider picking up both practical at all.

Since my Dark Knight Sylvain still ends up doing most of his combat as an off-brand Paladin with Swift Strikes, I pick up only Death Blow and not Fiendish Blow. I'd rather pick up Hit +20 for him than Fiendish Blow as an additional intermediate class mastery so he can more consistently use higher MT lower hit weapons (he'll be more dependent on them due to the lost power relative to Paladin's Lancefaire). His magic still does alright against low resilience enemies without Fiendish Blow, their resistance is actually just that low. He's not going to one round nearly as well as a decently speedy strong mage because these enemies typically have too much HP for that, but he does good work if my better mages are busy doing other stuff on the map.

In general when I use hybrid builds they are still emphasizing one form of offense over the other, and the corresponding -Blow skill. The motivation to use them in this suboptimal way is usually some added utility (e.g., a spell list including something neat like Physic, Rescue, Seraphim, etc.), but they can still use the worse attacking stat if their opponents defenses are sufficiently asymmetric to favor that.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem with that assessment is that the magic hit formula averages two stats out to get hit rates... and luck is generally going to be lower than dexterity for most units (Fun fact: Only two characters in the game have luck growths higher than 50%). Second, giving Annette Cichol when she's likely going to be using magic attacks is a colossal waste when I could've given it to someone who'll actually be putting the +7 physical attack to use. I already find Wyvern Annette a VERY questionable decision, but this is shooting myself in the foot even more. If I have to make a very poor decision for Wvvern Annette to be useful, that tells me she isn't.

My argument is that even if Wyvern Annette has hit problems, that's more about axes as a weapon type in general, so while magic hit factors in a luck stat typically lower than dexterity, many axe focused characters don't have much dexterity backing up their physical hits either. I'm not going to do the exhaustive arithmetic at the moment, but I will compare Annette's stats against the other Blue Lions with axe proficiency. I will also toss in Seteth since he joins you in the route no matter what. Class progression is pretty straightforward, just assuming Fighter>Brigand>Wyvern Rider>Wyvern Lord at the earliest possible levels for most everyone, with Annette substituting Monk>Mage before Wyvern Rider and Seteth joining as a base Wyvern Rider. I'm comparing everyone as a level 40 Wyvern Lord at the end of the game.

I pulled up the average stats of characters here:  https://fe3h.com/average_stats

• Annette: 28 dexterity and 19 luck, averaging to 23.5 for magic hit.
• Dedue:  19 dexterity
• Sylvain:  20 dexterity
• Ashe:  30 dexterity
• Seteth:  28 dexterity

My take away here is that Annette has the dexterity of the more accurate axe proficient units, but luck on par with the dexterity of the least accurate axe units. Since magic hit averages the two, she'll be somewhere in the middle between these. Quickly glancing at growth rates, seems like Annette will likely be less accurate than Petra, similar to Edelgard (her high 45% dexterity growth does need to overcome a low 5 base stat), and more accurate than Hilda.

Cichol Wyverns is an A rank battalion, which I find challenging to reach without a proficiency due to my priorities. Unfortunately, none of the widely accessible classes give a bonus to combat gain in authority. Since authority isn't required for promotion, it's usually the weapon rank I tend to raise at the end once everything else is addressed. End result I found was a bunch of characters who got up to B/B+ authority, but did not quite make it across the finish line to A authority. I find who gets Cichol Wyverns will thus end up being a question of whom I made a flier with an authority boon. Suppose I use both Byleth and Seteth as fliers, that makes them very likely candidates to hit A authority and equip this battalion. If I use Hilda instead of one of them as my flier, then she will have a tough time getting access to Cichol Wyverns, even if she really benefits from both the physical attack and hit boost. Annette is hardly a great use of the +7 physical attack, but she does have an authority boon and has notable rally utility providing additional merit to training her Authority, so maybe she usurps the hit boost of the battalion because physical fliers are lacking the authority.

Beyond that, I think it's a general matter of risk tolerance and moral hazard which affects pretty much all units in the power vs. accuracy trade-off: axes are less accurate and more powerful than other weapons, within weapon types silver weapons are stronger but less accurate than iron, etc. My risk tolerance is such that I'm fine with a displayed hit rate above 70% if I'm not dying in retaliation after a miss (for Annette, the 3 range of Bolt Axe+ helps remove the retaliation risk). I'm certainly not guaranteed to hit my mark, but with 2RN it's a gamble I'm willing to take. I'm also ok with 60–70% displayed hit if the risky play has a high enough upside (maybe it gets rid of one very annoying enemy opening up my offensive opportunities, or maybe my defenses are crumbling, and a Divine Pulse is getting used up after enemy phase if I miss the risky attack anyways). Below 60%, I'm definitely more inclined to just skip the maneuver.

Moral hazard is the economic concept where if you are protected against the downside risk of behavior, then you're more likely to pursue the risky behavior; it usually comes up regarding insurance (e.g., does having car insurance make you inclined to more reckless driving?). Divine Pulse is a huge source of moral hazard in Three Houses once you unlock most of its charges. You so rarely need to use most/all of the uses that you can justify riskier plays that can just be trivially undone. Unfortunately, it's hard to imagine Three Houses without any Divine Pulse because the map design often employs surprises to add difficulty, assuming you can undo the surprise if it proves fatal to your strategy to avoid player frustration. Still, they give you too many uses outside a handful of maps (Chapter 13 is typically a lot of RNG and I use a lot of Divine Pulses there, for example) and the end result is moral hazard.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

It's not about Close Counter so much as it is about safely attacking my opponent, particularly in the earlygame (missing a melee attack against a thief and getting doubled in return would be a really shitty experience). And magic weapons tend to not have the best hit rates, I find (not to mention that in practice, I can't necessarily expect to do more damage just because I'm attacking resistance when my unit's magic stat is much lower then their strength, except against select enemy types that are not that common).

In the early game magic weapons are hard to come by (you get a Levin Sword in a chest Chapter 6 and an enemy drop from Flayn/Seteth's paralogue, then I think no more until post-skip), and since Arcane Crystals don't open up until the middle of the time-skip they do not make particularly great early game ranged weapons. So, yeah, bows will definitely do better at this point. I know it's a very common Maddening strategy to put a bow on everyone to avoid damage since enemies are so strong, especially in the early game. I'm not sure why, but personally I never found it very appealing and, having not employed the strategy over a few Maddening playthroughs, it seems like it is not necessary either (mind you, by the time I did Maddening NG I had already beaten it with NG+, so the difficulty was tempered by fewer surprises, especially pre-skip). I'm pretty sure it's less efficient, but I'd rather distribute Javelins, Hand Axes, and magic weapons as appropriate to my units (notably, for swords that means all I have are Levin Swords and Sword of the Creator for range) and leave archery to the bow users. Only gameplay argument I can muster in favor of my preference is that your combat experience focuses on your eventual main weapon type, but that's a shallow argument when the early game is when you gain less experience— early classes give less weapon experience. Also, if bow combat experience eventually helps yield Hit +20, it was hardly a distraction/opportunity cost.

To make a point in favor of the early Levin Sword at least, Byleth and Yuri do a great job dodge-tanking enemy armors after Axe Breaker, have high Charm to also dodge gambits, and thanks to Armored Blow do more enemy-phase damage with the Levin Sword than an Armorslayer. Magic weapons do typically have lower hit, but that difference can be offset partially if it matches a Prowess skill your unit is carrying for their main weapon (while they likely drop accessory bow prowess for other skills as class masteries unlock). In that situation, the Prowess also grants some avoid and critical avoid, should your unit end up exposed to enemy phase combat (however, in Maddening you should generally strive to avoid the situation outside Vantage + Wrath or Alert Stance dodge-tanking, regardless).

I will counter-argue that I am focused on magic weapons more for post-skip usage. They become more available through forging, and that's after you have the chance to up base magic with promotions to Warlock/Bishop at level 20. Bows are certainly the lower-investment option, and investment might be what you value most highly, but the magic weapons do have upside with targeting resistance, being able to counter at melee by default (excepting Magic Bow), and being able to double at 3 range (excepting Long Bow having the same advantage off strength and Aura Knuckles stuck in melee). I already mentioned these aren't slam-dunk upsides on Maddening, but they do exist.

Edited May 28, 2021 by FashionEmblem

[UNLEASH IT]

Physical/healing/non-damage magic is good.

[Shadow Mir]

22 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm not sure why you think this needs so much investment? It's the bog standard Dark Knight, just with A in lances, and Sylvain has boons in every relevant skill for the build except Faith (which only needs to go to C, then B for some monster-heavy maps lategame). It's not as low-investment as a standard Sniper, but it's hardly out of line for a 3H build.

Unlike Lorenz, Sylvain has Physic, Seraphim, and Swift Strikes for low-def enemies and cavalry - he's a lot better than Lorenz IMO. I find Physic in particular almost singlehandedly makes a unit useful.

Because 5 skills is a lot to invest in. And I would say that would be spreading yourself thin.

20 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

In the early game magic weapons are hard to come by (you get a Levin Sword in a chest Chapter 6 and an enemy drop from Flayn/Seteth's paralogue, then I think no more until post-skip), and since Arcane Crystals don't open up until the middle of the time-skip they do not make particularly great early game ranged weapons. So, yeah, bows will definitely do better at this point. I know it's a very common Maddening strategy to put a bow on everyone to avoid damage since enemies are so strong, especially in the early game. I'm not sure why, but personally I never found it very appealing and, having not employed the strategy over a few Maddening playthroughs, it seems like it is not necessary either (mind you, by the time I did Maddening NG I had already beaten it with NG+, so the difficulty was tempered by fewer surprises, especially pre-skip). I'm pretty sure it's less efficient, but I'd rather distribute Javelins, Hand Axes, and magic weapons as appropriate to my units (notably, for swords that means all I have are Levin Swords and Sword of the Creator for range) and leave archery to the bow users. Only gameplay argument I can muster in favor of my preference is that your combat experience focuses on your eventual main weapon type, but that's a shallow argument when the early game is when you gain less experience— early classes give less weapon experience. Also, if bow combat experience eventually helps yield Hit +20, it was hardly a distraction/opportunity cost.

To make a point in favor of the early Levin Sword at least, Byleth and Yuri do a great job dodge-tanking enemy armors after Axe Breaker, have high Charm to also dodge gambits, and thanks to Armored Blow do more enemy-phase damage with the Levin Sword than an Armorslayer. Magic weapons do typically have lower hit, but that difference can be offset partially if it matches a Prowess skill your unit is carrying for their main weapon (while they likely drop accessory bow prowess for other skills as class masteries unlock). In that situation, the Prowess also grants some avoid and critical avoid, should your unit end up exposed to enemy phase combat (however, in Maddening you should generally strive to avoid the situation outside Vantage + Wrath or Alert Stance dodge-tanking, regardless).

I will counter-argue that I am focused on magic weapons more for post-skip usage. They become more available through forging, and that's after you have the chance to up base magic with promotions to Warlock/Bishop at level 20. Bows are certainly the lower-investment option, and investment might be what you value most highly, but the magic weapons do have upside with targeting resistance, being able to counter at melee by default (excepting Magic Bow), and being able to double at 3 range (excepting Long Bow having the same advantage off strength and Aura Knuckles stuck in melee). I already mentioned these aren't slam-dunk upsides on Maddening, but they do exist.

I'd find bows much better than javelins and hand axes because the latter two are heavier, weaker, and less accurate than an iron bow, not to mention they can't replicate bows' anti-flier utility. Also, there's no way I can find the investment into reason or faith for physical units just to get access to the base magic stat of Warlock or Bishop to be even remotely worth it, as it doesn't help me at all due to the fact that whatever I'd use magic weapons for, mages can do better; therefore, your ideology makes even less sense than the Song of Storms paradox. It doesn't help that magic weapons lose durability even on missed attacks (which is also true of spells, but spells have higher accuracy, and reason prowess ranks boost hit primarily; as a result, mages are reliable in a way that magic weapon users wish they could be).

20 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

My argument is that even if Wyvern Annette has hit problems, that's more about axes as a weapon type in general, so while magic hit factors in a luck stat typically lower than dexterity, many axe focused characters don't have much dexterity backing up their physical hits either. I'm not going to do the exhaustive arithmetic at the moment, but I will compare Annette's stats against the other Blue Lions with axe proficiency. I will also toss in Seteth since he joins you in the route no matter what. Class progression is pretty straightforward, just assuming Fighter>Brigand>Wyvern Rider>Wyvern Lord at the earliest possible levels for most everyone, with Annette substituting Monk>Mage before Wyvern Rider and Seteth joining as a base Wyvern Rider. I'm comparing everyone as a level 40 Wyvern Lord at the end of the game.

I pulled up the average stats of characters here:  https://fe3h.com/average_stats

• Annette: 28 dexterity and 19 luck, averaging to 23.5 for magic hit.
• Dedue:  19 dexterity
• Sylvain:  20 dexterity
• Ashe:  30 dexterity
• Seteth:  28 dexterity

My take away here is that Annette has the dexterity of the more accurate axe proficient units, but luck on par with the dexterity of the least accurate axe units. Since magic hit averages the two, she'll be somewhere in the middle between these. Quickly glancing at growth rates, seems like Annette will likely be less accurate than Petra, similar to Edelgard (her high 45% dexterity growth does need to overcome a low 5 base stat), and more accurate than Hilda.

Cichol Wyverns is an A rank battalion, which I find challenging to reach without a proficiency due to my priorities. Unfortunately, none of the widely accessible classes give a bonus to combat gain in authority. Since authority isn't required for promotion, it's usually the weapon rank I tend to raise at the end once everything else is addressed. End result I found was a bunch of characters who got up to B/B+ authority, but did not quite make it across the finish line to A authority. I find who gets Cichol Wyverns will thus end up being a question of whom I made a flier with an authority boon. Suppose I use both Byleth and Seteth as fliers, that makes them very likely candidates to hit A authority and equip this battalion. If I use Hilda instead of one of them as my flier, then she will have a tough time getting access to Cichol Wyverns, even if she really benefits from both the physical attack and hit boost. Annette is hardly a great use of the +7 physical attack, but she does have an authority boon and has notable rally utility providing additional merit to training her Authority, so maybe she usurps the hit boost of the battalion because physical fliers are lacking the authority.

Beyond that, I think it's a general matter of risk tolerance and moral hazard which affects pretty much all units in the power vs. accuracy trade-off: axes are less accurate and more powerful than other weapons, within weapon types silver weapons are stronger but less accurate than iron, etc. My risk tolerance is such that I'm fine with a displayed hit rate above 70% if I'm not dying in retaliation after a miss (for Annette, the 3 range of Bolt Axe+ helps remove the retaliation risk). I'm certainly not guaranteed to hit my mark, but with 2RN it's a gamble I'm willing to take. I'm also ok with 60–70% displayed hit if the risky play has a high enough upside (maybe it gets rid of one very annoying enemy opening up my offensive opportunities, or maybe my defenses are crumbling, and a Divine Pulse is getting used up after enemy phase if I miss the risky attack anyways). Below 60%, I'm definitely more inclined to just skip the maneuver.

Moral hazard is the economic concept where if you are protected against the downside risk of behavior, then you're more likely to pursue the risky behavior; it usually comes up regarding insurance (e.g., does having car insurance make you inclined to more reckless driving?). Divine Pulse is a huge source of moral hazard in Three Houses once you unlock most of its charges. You so rarely need to use most/all of the uses that you can justify riskier plays that can just be trivially undone. Unfortunately, it's hard to imagine Three Houses without any Divine Pulse because the map design often employs surprises to add difficulty, assuming you can undo the surprise if it proves fatal to your strategy to avoid player frustration. Still, they give you too many uses outside a handful of maps (Chapter 13 is typically a lot of RNG and I use a lot of Divine Pulses there, for example) and the end result is moral hazard.

Looking at end-of-game stats doesn't tell the whole story, needless to say. Also, I'd say Annette's reliability drops like a rock the moment she ditches her spells for axes due to the fact that the Bolt Axe and Crusher (which I see quite a bit of Wyvern Annette hype center around) are -30/-40 hit relative to her spells. That heavily reeks of the putrid stench of "losing trade", especially since most flying battalions don't give magic attack.

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because 5 skills is a lot to invest in. And I would say that would be spreading yourself thin.

None of the skills need to go past A, though, which is a big deal. I frequently make builds that include S rank skills (Black Range+1, Bow Crit+10, etc.), which is pretty much equivalent to getting two A ranks by itself. Some players even manage to get Weaponfaire2 in no-grind runs, which is pretty close to 3 A ranks!

Additionally, depending on your available training opportunities, Dark Knight Sylvain is easily a build which can afford to shortchange certain skills. Getting Ragnarok is nice, but not necessary, and without it you can stop your Reason training at C/C+ or so. Seraphim is nice, but not necessary (and you'll likely build to it naturally if you use Physic often). And if you're playing on Crimson Flower, which is the route most starved for training, this build is an excellent candidate for the C-rank Supreme Armoured Corps allowing you to shortchange his Authority.

Past that, all I can say is that the proof is in the pudding: I've done this build multiple times on Maddening and I never felt like I needed to starve my other units or train Sylvain every week to pull it off, and I don't even do non-quest aux fights.