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FailWood

Lack of male Mythics

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3 hours ago, Hilda said:

I think we can all agree that there is no definitiv rule to who is a mythic/legendary and who is nott. That was the case allready in Book 2 when Surtr wasnt a legendary. Or that Lilina got the legendary treatment. IS will slap the mythic/legendary brand on whoever they wish to slap it on.

Book 2 was pretty simple. At the time, they weren't giving elemental associations to characters who had been fought without them, so Muspell characters couldn't be legendaries. With the introduction of mythics, they changed that rule so that any OC can be a mythic, while any prominent regular character can get a legendary alt.

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7 hours ago, Hilda said:

I think we can all agree that there is no definitiv rule to who is a mythic/legendary and who is nott. That was the case allready in Book 2 when Surtr wasnt a legendary. Or that Lilina got the legendary treatment. IS will slap the mythic/legendary brand on whoever they wish to slap it on.

Yeah, I can't really argue with that.

I suppose with Nemesis in particular, it's also that Seiros was picked to be a Mythic while he was not. 

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23 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

Reminder that Mirabilis (the most worthless and least interesting Book IV OC by a wide margin) is a Mythic Hero while Nemesis is not.

Yes, I know Mirabilis was a midpoint Mythic and no I don’t care. The fact that she is a Mythic instead of Nemesis is ridiculous all the same.

I'm pretty sure their line of reasoning is just that every Heroes original character that isn't from a "realm of man" is considered divine.

I don't know much of Three Houses lore, but my understanding is that Nemesis is roughly at the level of Bramimond, Altina, Lif, and Thrasir, i.e. a divinely empowered human, which, while it gives him the qualifications to be a Mythic Hero, still makes him less divine than Mirabilis.

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14 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm pretty sure their line of reasoning is just that every Heroes original character that isn't from a "realm of man" is considered divine.

I don't know much of Three Houses lore, but my understanding is that Nemesis is roughly at the level of Bramimond, Altina, Lif, and Thrasir, i.e. a divinely empowered human, which, while it gives him the qualifications to be a Mythic Hero, still makes him less divine than Mirabilis.

Yeah, he's a thousand-year-old final boss. Pretty standard "ancient warrior" fare.

But it looks like for past characters, that just puts them in the category of "could be added as either a mythic or regular hero", while current OCs are always mythics.

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I'm a bit more annoyed about Altina being a mythic hero while Deghinsea's debut was as a Halloween seasonal unit who didn't even have a prf weapon. While it's still possible we'll get regular, mythic Deghinsea someday it definitely says something that they picked the pretty girl who's only a posthumous character canonically over the actually living dragon dude who has lines in both games. And of course, Soan gets the short end of the stick due to having no canon human appearance and barely being mentioned in the actual games even though he'd be the most interesting as a unit in Heroes.

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On the whole I'd say Heroes overestimates its OC's. They are often put into the Legendary or Mythic category despite often being neither of those things. There's little that's legendary about Hrid who barely did anything the entire war with Musple, nor is there something mythical about a henchwoman like Plumeria. And this has the unfortunate side effect of translating to a lack of male mythic since most Heroes oc's are female. Not only do male mythic candidates like Dheginsea or Anri need to compete with their more marketable female counterparts but also with the ill deserving Heroes OC who also lay claim on Legendary and Mythic spots. As such its no wonder there is a shortage of male Mythics. 

 

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35 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

On the whole I'd say Heroes overestimates its OC's. They are often put into the Legendary or Mythic category despite often being neither of those things. There's little that's legendary about Hrid who barely did anything the entire war with Musple, nor is there something mythical about a henchwoman like Plumeria. And this has the unfortunate side effect of translating to a lack of male mythic since most Heroes oc's are female. Not only do male mythic candidates like Dheginsea or Anri need to compete with their more marketable female counterparts but also with the ill deserving Heroes OC who also lay claim on Legendary and Mythic spots. As such its no wonder there is a shortage of male Mythics. 

 

If we weren't getting OC mythics, we wouldn't be getting more non-OC mythics, they'd just reduce the overall mythic count instead.

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7 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

While it's still possible we'll get regular, mythic Deghinsea someday it definitely says something that they picked the pretty girl who's only a posthumous character canonically over the actually living dragon dude who has lines in both games.

Not to mention he's also one of the most powerful boss characters in the series (Would it be fair to call him the strongest non final boss enemy in the series?).

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1 hour ago, FailWood said:

Not to mention he's also one of the most powerful boss characters in the series (Would it be fair to call him the strongest non final boss enemy in the series?).

Are we including DLC and postgame?

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I think they were saying about tellius series?

Edited by Naoshi

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33 minutes ago, Othin said:

Are we including DLC and postgame?

Even if we are, I doubt there's much outside of Apotheosis in Awakening that beats this:

HP/Str/Mag/Skl/Spd/Lck/Def/Res
100/50/26/36/30/30/50/46/Total: 368

Dheginsea really is an absolute unit.

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1 hour ago, Othin said:

Are we including DLC and postgame?

For this, no.

 

1 hour ago, Naoshi said:

I think they were saying about tellius series?

I was speaking in terms of the entire franchise, not just the two Tellius games.

 

36 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

HP/Str/Mag/Skl/Spd/Lck/Def/Res
100/50/26/36/30/30/50/46/Total: 368

Dheginsea really is an absolute unit.

Yeah he is.

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1 hour ago, Tybrosion said:

Even if we are, I doubt there's much outside of Apotheosis in Awakening that beats this:

HP/Str/Mag/Skl/Spd/Lck/Def/Res
100/50/26/36/30/30/50/46/Total: 368

Dheginsea really is an absolute unit.

Maybe prior to Maddening TH, but I'm fairly sure things like Indech and Macuil are comparable in that difficulty. Depends how you value their obnoxiously-high HP, really.

There's also Thales, who has lower HP/Str/Def/Res, but higher Mag/Skill/Spd/Lck. I'd still call Deghinsea stronger than him, but it's close.

Lunatic Priam is also a contender, but he's kinda let down by his 3 Mag if you're just looking at raw stat total.

You know, speaking of Indech and Macuil... there's a pair of male Mythic candidates who even have recency bias on their side.

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2 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

Even if we are, I doubt there's much outside of Apotheosis in Awakening that beats this:

HP/Str/Mag/Skl/Spd/Lck/Def/Res
100/50/26/36/30/30/50/46/Total: 368

Dheginsea really is an absolute unit.

23 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

Maybe prior to Maddening TH, but I'm fairly sure things like Indech and Macuil are comparable in that difficulty. Depends how you value their obnoxiously-high HP, really.

There's also Thales, who has lower HP/Str/Def/Res, but higher Mag/Skill/Spd/Lck. I'd still call Deghinsea stronger than him, but it's close.

Lunatic Priam is also a contender, but he's kinda let down by his 3 Mag if you're just looking at raw stat total.

You know, speaking of Indech and Macuil... there's a pair of male Mythic candidates who even have recency bias on their side.

I haven't finished any of the post-Tellius games, but what makes Dheginhansea so ridiculously strong is not only his obnoxiously high raw stats, but also his weapons and skills.

His primary weapon has 25 Mt and 115 Accuracy, giving him 75 attack power and 242 accuracy (assuming his 5 authority stars count towards himself, which I think they do). Additionally, he has an AoE attack with 10 Mt, damaging all enemies within 8 squares of himself, having 65 attack power at point blank and 30 attack power at its maximum range.

He has the passive skill Mantle, which prevents all skills (other than Nihil) and critical hits from activating against him and heals himself a massive 30 HP every turn. (Sure, Sephiran and Ashera heal 40 HP every turn, but they don't have Dheginhansea's 50 Def stat.) Mantle also negates all damage from weapons that are not blessed, which limits you to one weapon per unit that can deal damage to him (though any weapon that is not character-locked can be traded between characters after being blessed). He also has his mastery skill, Ire, which has a 13-23% chance to activate (depending on biorhythm) and deal triple damage (effectively a critical hit and pretty much a guaranteed one-hit kill), which effectively forces you to only engage in combat using units with Nihil to prevent it from activating.

Sure, you can cheese him with a blessed Bolting (since trying to attack him with any other Thunder magic is Not a Good Idea™ due to his counterattack), but the developers definitely knew about that option and made it difficult to get one by never actually giving you one. The only way to get Bolting is to activate the Disarm skill against the one enemy in the game that has the weapon and then steal it before they can re-equip it.

I consider Dheginhansea to be the "actual" final boss of Radiant Dawn. The fight against him is definitely the climax of the final chapter, and compared to fighting the entire country of Goldoa, everything afterward feels like just a formality.

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2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I haven't finished any of the post-Tellius games, but what makes Dheginhansea so ridiculously strong is not only his obnoxiously high raw stats, but also his weapons and skills.

His primary weapon has 25 Mt and 115 Accuracy, giving him 75 attack power and 242 accuracy (assuming his 5 authority stars count towards himself, which I think they do). Additionally, he has an AoE attack with 10 Mt, damaging all enemies within 8 squares of himself, having 65 attack power at point blank and 30 attack power at its maximum range.

He has the passive skill Mantle, which prevents all skills (other than Nihil) and critical hits from activating against him and heals himself a massive 30 HP every turn. (Sure, Sephiran and Ashera heal 40 HP every turn, but they don't have Dheginhansea's 50 Def stat.) Mantle also negates all damage from weapons that are not blessed, which limits you to one weapon per unit that can deal damage to him (though any weapon that is not character-locked can be traded between characters after being blessed). He also has his mastery skill, Ire, which has a 13-23% chance to activate (depending on biorhythm) and deal triple damage (effectively a critical hit and pretty much a guaranteed one-hit kill), which effectively forces you to only engage in combat using units with Nihil to prevent it from activating.

Sure, you can cheese him with a blessed Bolting (since trying to attack him with any other Thunder magic is Not a Good Idea™ due to his counterattack), but the developers definitely knew about that option and made it difficult to get one by never actually giving you one. The only way to get Bolting is to activate the Disarm skill against the one enemy in the game that has the weapon and then steal it before they can re-equip it.

I consider Dheginhansea to be the "actual" final boss of Radiant Dawn. The fight against him is definitely the climax of the final chapter, and compared to fighting the entire country of Goldoa, everything afterward feels like just a formality.

As far as I remember there are three enemies with bolting. It's just the one in early part 3 is the easiest to get, even though there it requires really strict stat limits on Heather to obtain.

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I tried to edit this into my previous comment, but Serenes said no.

 

For anyone wondering, these are Deghinsea, Indech and Macuil's stats adjusted to series averages.

 

Dheginsea (T) 85 36 24 24 21 20 32 23
  HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res

 

  HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Indech (Lv40 Mad) 539 23 25 31 18 31 30 14

 

  HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Macuil (Lv40 Mad) 484 24 32 22 33 34 17 27

 

So rather unsurprisingly, Indech and Macuil have way more HP than Dhegeinsea. Dhegs is even tankier than Indech though. He's also significantly stronger than both of them, though Macuil actually hits uses magic and hits res so he might actually be stronger, you'd need to factor weapons into it which I haven't here. Macuil is also faster than Dheginsea and Indech has more accuracy. Surprisingly of the two, because it's generally an easier fight I find, Macuil is the one who seems to measure up better and could actually stand a chance of beating Dheginsea in a war of attrition.

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14 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I haven't finished any of the post-Tellius games, but what makes Dheginhansea so ridiculously strong is not only his obnoxiously high raw stats, but also his weapons and skills.

His primary weapon has 25 Mt and 115 Accuracy, giving him 75 attack power and 242 accuracy (assuming his 5 authority stars count towards himself, which I think they do). Additionally, he has an AoE attack with 10 Mt, damaging all enemies within 8 squares of himself, having 65 attack power at point blank and 30 attack power at its maximum range.

He has the passive skill Mantle, which prevents all skills (other than Nihil) and critical hits from activating against him and heals himself a massive 30 HP every turn. (Sure, Sephiran and Ashera heal 40 HP every turn, but they don't have Dheginhansea's 50 Def stat.) Mantle also negates all damage from weapons that are not blessed, which limits you to one weapon per unit that can deal damage to him (though any weapon that is not character-locked can be traded between characters after being blessed). He also has his mastery skill, Ire, which has a 13-23% chance to activate (depending on biorhythm) and deal triple damage (effectively a critical hit and pretty much a guaranteed one-hit kill), which effectively forces you to only engage in combat using units with Nihil to prevent it from activating.

Sure, you can cheese him with a blessed Bolting (since trying to attack him with any other Thunder magic is Not a Good Idea™ due to his counterattack), but the developers definitely knew about that option and made it difficult to get one by never actually giving you one. The only way to get Bolting is to activate the Disarm skill against the one enemy in the game that has the weapon and then steal it before they can re-equip it.

I consider Dheginhansea to be the "actual" final boss of Radiant Dawn. The fight against him is definitely the climax of the final chapter, and compared to fighting the entire country of Goldoa, everything afterward feels like just a formality.

I was ignoring skills, because doing that actually tends to help Deghinsea. The TH dragons both have Dragonskin and Miracle, making them both even bulkier than their raw stats suggest. They also can't be cheesed by long-ranged weapons, because of Counterattack.

If we're talking about a straight 1v1, Deghinsea probably wins because of Mantle. There's an argument to be made that the Saints' crest stones could break Mantle - Sothis, their creator, is definitely on the same power level as Ashunera - but it's not clear-cut.

If we're talking about how hard the bosses are to fight with the units and abilities you have as the player, Deghinsea's the clear winner, but that's not how I interpreted the original question, plus in this case they're all beaten by Merciless Mode Gomer and Reynard anyway.

By a straight stat comparison, which is what seemed implied by the conversation... well, see my previous post. *shrug*

I like @Jotari's analysis with normalised stats, though.

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57 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

I was ignoring skills, because doing that actually tends to help Deghinsea. The TH dragons both have Dragonskin and Miracle, making them both even bulkier than their raw stats suggest. They also can't be cheesed by long-ranged weapons, because of Counterattack.

If we're talking about a straight 1v1, Deghinsea probably wins because of Mantle. There's an argument to be made that the Saints' crest stones could break Mantle - Sothis, their creator, is definitely on the same power level as Ashunera - but it's not clear-cut.

If we're talking about how hard the bosses are to fight with the units and abilities you have as the player, Deghinsea's the clear winner, but that's not how I interpreted the original question, plus in this case they're all beaten by Merciless Mode Gomer and Reynard anyway.

By a straight stat comparison, which is what seemed implied by the conversation... well, see my previous post. *shrug*

I like @Jotari's analysis with normalised stats, though.

I find the saints to be way harder in terms of bosses than Deghensea. Deghensea might have the stats, but actually dealing with him is rather easy, it's just a slog. Once you clear out the rest of the dragons it's just a matter of whacking him with a unit that has Nihil that does more damage than he heals (probably Ike with a Wyrmslayer) until he eventually dies. For Indech you have to deal with constant reinforcements hidden in the fog while also figuring out how to break enough of his shields on player phase without staying in range for his AOE attacks on enemy phase. Maculi is a bit easier since there's no reinforcements, but his high avoid and magic damage makes him quite hard to safely approach. Both of the saints end up having boss fights that are far more involved and actually force you to take risks and generally utilize your entire army versus smacking Deghnesea in the face with 0% risk until he eventually dies.

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I find the saints to be way harder in terms of bosses than Deghensea. Deghensea might have the stats, but actually dealing with him is rather easy, it's just a slog. Once you clear out the rest of the dragons it's just a matter of whacking him with a unit that has Nihil that does more damage than he heals (probably Ike with a Wyrmslayer) until he eventually dies. For Indech you have to deal with constant reinforcements hidden in the fog while also figuring out how to break enough of his shields on player phase without staying in range for his AOE attacks on enemy phase. Maculi is a bit easier since there's no reinforcements, but his high avoid and magic damage makes him quite hard to safely approach. Both of the saints end up having boss fights that are far more involved and actually force you to take risks and generally utilize your entire army versus smacking Deghnesea in the face with 0% risk until he eventually dies.

Hey, fair enough. I haven't actually played RD myself, so I was trying to give Deghinsea as much benefit of the doubt as possible. I definitely agree that Macuil and Indech are seriously tough customers, or I wouldn't be having this argument!

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