Jump to content

Let's Grade Some Gambits, Epilogue: Results on Page 4!


Recommended Posts

8/10 for Dance of the Goddess. The effect is powerful, to be sure, but it's held back by either needing A in authority to use (if you're in Azure Moon; also, personally, I find it hard to decide who gets support gambits like this, even more so when they're gated behind an A in authority) or needing to have one of two specific units stop by a certain location on a lategame map.

Blessing gets a 5/10. The effect is a great one, to be sure, but it doesn't stand out unless you have builds that rely on low HP to work. It doesn't help that you only get the one charge unless you either have online or recruit one or even two out-of-house units.

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 103
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@Shadow Mir I feel I must interject, regarding your grade for Dance of the Goddess. Per the original grading guidelines:

On 6/3/2021 at 9:17 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As important to figure out, though, is what I'd rather NOT see gambits graded on, such as:

  • What battalions they're attached too
  • Availability and Usability
  • Aesthetic considerations or personal taste

The rationale here is, once this is done, we'll also be grading the battalions. At that point, factors like availability and authority demands will be brought into play. As will the gambit it comes with. So grading the gambit itself on availability would have the effect of "double counting" such factors when grading the battalion as a whole. Instead, to be totally fair going into the next step, the gambit should be considered divorced from its associated battalion(s).

Not to say you need to change your grade - I, too, gave Dance of the Goddess an 8 out of 10. On the basis that its effect, while incredible, was held to a single use on no more than 4 targets. Knowing these guidelines, I ask - would you grade this gambit the same, or differently, from before?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

@Shadow Mir I feel I must interject, regarding your grade for Dance of the Goddess. Per the original grading guidelines:

The rationale here is, once this is done, we'll also be grading the battalions. At that point, factors like availability and authority demands will be brought into play. As will the gambit it comes with. So grading the gambit itself on availability would have the effect of "double counting" such factors when grading the battalion as a whole. Instead, to be totally fair going into the next step, the gambit should be considered divorced from its associated battalion(s).

Not to say you need to change your grade - I, too, gave Dance of the Goddess an 8 out of 10. On the basis that its effect, while incredible, was held to a single use on no more than 4 targets. Knowing these guidelines, I ask - would you grade this gambit the same, or differently, from before?

Ah, sorry about that. Anyway, if I was putting availability aside, I'd probably keep my rating as is. Which is to say, I consider it a great support gambit, but it's not without its limitations. As an aside, it feels awkward grading without considering availability,  given that 99.9% of FE discussions bring up availability.

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Ah, sorry about that. Anyway, if I was putting availability aside, I'd probably keep my rating as is. Which is to say, I consider it a great support gambit, but it's not without its limitations. As an aside, it feels awkward grading without considering availability,  given that 99.9% of FE discussions bring up availability.

Fair and understandable, thanks for letting me know. It's tricky to say when availability should, and shouldn't be considered. Like, Point-Blank Volley is a great combat art, but should it be considered lesser for being only on two units? Or, Wrath Strike is a rather average art, but should it get credit for its near ubiquity? It depends on the question at hand - am I considering how much I'd like to see this art on any given unit? Or, how much harder the game would be if I could never use this technique?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Recovery Roar: 1/10.  Insanely situational.  If you had access to this in Cindered Shadows, there might be a map or two this was reasonable on (the timed maps most notably) just because you're more likely to be clumped up and need a huge rattle-dispel right now, but...  yeah no.

Stride: 9/10, although I could easily be argued for 10/10 (and, in practice, its extreme availability makes it feel like a 10/10).  I'm somebody who likes to "kill every last one of them" and avoid too much use of boss skipping strats, and Stride still has some amazing use cases separate from ganking the boss - getting in on dangerous enemies, avoiding ninja reinforcements, timed maps where bad things happen if you wait too long like thieves escaping with treasure or soldiers turning into monsters or green units dying, etc.  If you're not running some sort of powerful dodgetank or Impenetrable Wall strat for safer baiting, this gets even better.  Just really solid.

Dance of the Goddess: 10/10.  If we're ranking gambits as stand-alone, I can't see this being any worse than this - it's one of the most powerful effects imaginable for the same reason Stride is good, except the range is slightly more constrained, but you get actual extra actions rather than just extra movement.  The main thing that forces this down in practice is awful availability and the stats of the associated battalions being garbo such that attempting to use this massively reduces the combat capabilities of the unit (especially Opera Co. Volunteers - join at Battalion Level 1 with 1-3 maps left, genius!).  But if we're ranking independently of that - nah, this & Impenetrable Wall are the best gambits.  

Blessing: Extremely hard to rate for the reasons lenticular brings up.  It's not a Gambit you can just throw into any unit comp and call it a day, like you can with Ashes & Dust - it's a much, much worse Impenetrable Wall if you don't have a plan, so probably not worth using at all.  That said, if you do have a plan, this gambit single-handedly helps enable some extremely powerful strategies like Vantage / Retribution.  It's also at its best vs. some of the toughest enemies on Maddening - if you're having trouble with Nemesis, say, some sort of "Lysithea gets Blessing & a Guard Adjutant, then blasts Luna into Nemesis's face" strat can do wonders.  This can straight-up be the difference between victory and defeat if you have some sort of playthrough in trouble (stat-screwed characters, Classic deaths) as it's pretty stat-independent.  Call it a 6/10, but as noted it's really either a 3/10 or a 9/10 depending on whether you can exploit it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blessing: 6/10. A nice little effect which boosts survivability. It's definitely not just straight worse than Impregnable Wall, because it can ward off a death on an unknowable turn. In particular, Blessing on your four best boss-fighters allows them to tangle with low crit rates (which is common from Indech, Macuil, Hegemon Edelgard, both forms of the Immaculate One) safely, or brave Bolting crits. As mentioned it's great vs Nemesis or other human bosses too, allowing anyone to survive anything they can do if they also have a guard adjutant. Otherwise, set it up on your most important units at the battle's start and enjoy. There are also specific strategies like setting up low-HP builds more safely but I don't value that use very much.

Naturally its value fluctuates a fair bit depending on the type of enemies present and your strategies for dealing with them. In some battles it won't see much use, but at worst lets anyone take one extra hit in a pinch.


Dance of the Goddess: Very good. I basically don't ever use it because it's attached to trash battalions and has wretched availability (one can only theorycraft its value in a map such as Reunion at Dawn), so I'll abstain from saying how good, but yeah I'm confident it's in that 9-10 range. I'm not sure what it says that FE4/9/10 give you this effect for free.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Dance of the Goddess: Very good. I basically don't ever use it because it's attached to trash battalions and has wretched availability (one can only theorycraft its value in a map such as Reunion at Dawn), so I'll abstain from saying how good, but yeah I'm confident it's in that 9-10 range. I'm not sure what it says that FE4/9/10 give you this effect for free.

I can't speak for Genealogy since I've never played it, but I'd say that a single use of Galdr in PoR and RD is considerably less good than a single use of Dance of the Goddess for a few reasons. First, you can't use it to refresh your dancer since it effectively is your dancer, which means that you can't do ridiculous "use your most powerful unit four times" strats. Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn also have fewer tools in general than Three Houses. There's no Warp, no Stride, no gambits, no combat arts, very little range >2, and so on, which means you're left using it much more "honestly" than the tricks you can pull in Three Houses. Finally, you're stuck only being able to use it when Reyson is transformed, which is quite a big limitation, or using it on Rafiel, who has garbage availability. It's still fantastic, of course, but I don't think it's outright broken the way it would be if Dance of The Goddess had more charges and better availability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lenticular

Totally agree with the first point, yeah. Getting four player phases out of a single unit, with no conditions attached besides positioning, is utterly monstrous. I'm surprised they let you do it, even, since otherwise the series tends to go with a "you can't refresh a refresher" rule; they could have made the dancer untargetable by Dance of the Goddess.

It's true that there are more tools for Dance of the Goddess to work with with Galdr, but I'm not convinced that makes it better... I could turn things around and point out that because there are fewer broken tools in PoR/RD than Galdr stands out all the more for enabling ridiculous player phase strategies in a way that nothing else does in that game (especially with almost every worthwhile unit in PoR having canto to get in position for it). In fact I'd go so far as to say that four-unit Galdr trivializes most Tellius battles while available (i.e. I'd disagree with your statement that it's not outright broken).

Rafiel has garbage availability, though notably, still more than Dance of the Goddess does on any non-AM route! As for Reyson, his Galdr is so good that you should pretty much give any laguz stones/gems to him to keep him transformed as much as possible because he is that game-breaking.

One other positive point for Dance of the Goddess is that you can give it to a unit with high mobility (not a flier, but a paladin etc.) at no cost, whereas in previous FEs the units with four-unit refresh have low move by default. Naturally, investing in their movement (Boots, Leg Ring, Knight Ring, Celerity, etc.) is an obvious choice, but it still takes those resources away from others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

@lenticular

 

I could turn things around and point out that because there are fewer broken tools in PoR/RD than Galdr stands out all the more for enabling ridiculous player phase strategies in a way that nothing else does in that game (especially with almost every worthwhile unit in PoR having canto to get in position for it). In fact I'd go so far as to say that four-unit Galdr trivializes most Tellius battles while available (i.e. I'd disagree with your statement that it's not outright broken).

It would be great in PoR if it wasn't for the fact that it takes time to get Reyson to transform. Laguz Stone are limited in quantity, but even if they weren't generally speaking the first turn refresh is far more important than a 4 move refresh later on. I'm not as familar with RD, but I do remember that Rafiel helps trivialize endgame maps with kill boss objectives. A lot of RD maps focus on having units juggernaut and kill swarms of enemies on enemy phase though, and galdr can only really help position units to get there. I'll also point out that if galdr enables ridiculous player phase strategies then by definition 3H will enable more of them given that there are more player phase options in 3H compared to RD.

As for Dance of the Goddess... Are there any maps that don't have boss kill objectives after obtaining it? I don't know if some 1 turn clears are possible without it, so it would be hard not to justify a perfect rating. It might be slightly worse if we're not cheesing maps, but I'm going to assume that we're rating gambits based on fast clears. I didn't say it outright in my last post, but I would also give Stride a perfect score, and as a bonus it's far easier to use in a casual setting if we're doing full clears and such.

Edited by samthedigital
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, we've really gotten some attention over the last couple days! As for the preceding gambits, people held various levels of piety toward Blessing. The Dance of the Goddess, on the other hand, really got everyone motivated. How will the next two gambits - the last support gambits, and gambits period, to be considered - fare?

Chapter 14: Absolute Defense and Battleground Cafe

The last two gambits to be considered came with the DLC. Each is affiliated with just one battalion, and offers a unique effect.

Absolute Defense

Spoiler

Might: - -

Hit: 100

Range: 1

Uses: 2

AoE: Triangle

Effect: Provides +6 Defense to all allies in range, for one full turn. Effect does not stack with Rally Defense.

Battleground Cafe

Spoiler

Might: - -

Hit: 100

Range: 1

Uses: 3

AoE: Triangle

Effect: Provides +4 Strength to all allies in range, for one full turn. Effect does not stack with Rally Strength.

One last reminder of the grading guidelines:

On 6/3/2021 at 9:17 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Here's what I'm thinking - each Gambit will be graded on a scale from 1 to 10. If difficulty would be relevant to the ranking, let's assume New Game Maddening (if you're ranking by a different standard, of course I won't stop you, but please make it clear). In case it's relevant, again, assume access to DLC and Nintendo Switch Online. I'll provide my score, and everyone else is welcome to share their own score, too. Gambits will be graded on:

  • Damage and hit rate (offensive only)
  • Charges per map
  • Range and Area-of-Effect
  • Side and/or support effects

How do I assess these gambits? Read below, and you'll know.

Spoiler

Absolute Defense may, at first blush, look like a return to the rallies of old. ...Gods, did I just refer to Fateswakening as "old" games? Regardless, rallying was overpowered then, so a similar multi-target buff must be overpowered now, right? Not quite. While the 3DS-style rallies could stack with one another, boosting multiple stats at a time, this gambit only provides a buff (+6) to a single stat (Defense). And while its effect can stack with a number of defensive tools - protection boosts from battalions, shields, and armored blow, among other things - it cannot stack with Rally Defense (only the larger of the two boosts is acknowledged). It can be useful if you want to provide a defensive boost to many allies, sure, but leaving multiple units (particularly squishy ones) in enemy range is generally asking for trouble, particularly on Maddening mode. Sacred Shield and Impregnable Wall are typically stronger forms of defensive reinforcement, albeit ones with more limited areas-of-effect. That said, this can be a valuable tool to bolster some of your "defensive tank"-style units - but with only two charges per map, you'll have to time them carefully. This gambit is almost never a must-bring, and while it can provide a welcome buff, it's rarely an essential component to one's strategy. I'm awarding this one a 3 out of 10.

Battleground Cafe operates similarly, but boosting Strength instead of Defense. This time, the buff is dropped to +4 (identical to Rally Strength), but it receives a third charge. It may seem like fewer units would benefit from this buff - those without swords can still die upon them. But even the Lysitheast of mages can still appreciate the attack speed boost (via weight offset) that a strength buff grants. As for your physical units, they'll really enjoy it. While +4 may not sound like much, this multiplies for every hit - your Brave Lance Paladin will be doing 8 more damage, while Fierce Iron Fist gets bumped up by 12 on your Grappler. This can easily make the difference between missing the one-round, and securing it. How effective it may be, of course, depends on your team layout - it's not likely all 9 tiles will be occupied by a ready-to-go physical attacker. Still, even giving one or two allies the means to secure a kill they'd otherwise miss out on is a welcome boost. And with three charges, you can afford to be somewhat more liberal in how you employ this one. It's far from the upper echelon of support gambits, but I'm comfortable giving this one a 5 out of 10.

Whew... we've made it! Rest assured, this is far from my last post in this series. By week's end, I plan to display the compiled scores. I also plan, in the next post, to give everyone something of a "grace period", if they'd like to change prior scores - or award scores to gambits they hadn't yet considered. Look forward to it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think rallies might be the most overrated abilities in 3H, vastly nerfed from Awakening/Fates (where they were good but not broken) in no small part because they're singletarget and range 1 (and are also one of the only actions which don't contribute towards class mastery). A version of them which is addresses these flaws is kinda nice. That said, even their gambit versions aren't great. I don't think it's controversial to say their effect isn't as potent as Blessing.

Absolute Defence: 4/10. Well, it's much better than Rally Defence... both because it's 1.5x as potent but also because it's available earlier; def is a more valuable stat early and for some inexplicable reason we don't get Rally Defence until Chapter 12, while Absolute Def can be obtained in chapter 9. Its main use is as a ghetto impregnable Wall: buff someone who already has pretty good def and they can take crazy amounts of punishment that turn. Unlike IW you still get to counter for real damage, but on the other hand it requires you have good def to start with and doesn't do anything against magic.

Battleground Cafe: 4/10. Probably the easier one to rate of the two. Buffing strength on your units allows you to secure some one-rounds they might otherwise miss. Of course... so does just having the user of this gambit attack themselves. Or more to the point, tossing out an AOE damage+rattle. Obviously a large AOE rattle is going to be superior to this, so Blaze and Assault Troop rank more highly to me. But things like Onslaught and Disturbance? That's tougher, because those still have to make charm checks, and sometimes have trouble securing more than one target, at which point the ability to str-buff multiple targets may win out. I think the same score as Disturbance is fair.

Fun series! Looking forward to moving on to the battalions themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Absolute Defence: 4/10. Well, it's much better than Rally Defence... both because it's 1.5x as potent but also because it's available earlier; def is a more valuable stat early and for some inexplicable reason we don't get Rally Defence until Chapter 12, while Absolute Def can be obtained in chapter 9. Its main use is as a ghetto impregnable Wall: buff someone who already has pretty good def and they can take crazy amounts of punishment that turn. Unlike IW you still get to counter for real damage, but on the other hand it requires you have good def to start with and doesn't do anything against magic.

Wait, who gets Rally Defense?

/checks the site

Seteth, Gilbert, and Hapi... two of these are midgame, and the last is DLC and has a weakness in authority.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolute Defense: 3/10.

Battleground Cafe: 2/10.

I know that these are theoretically availability agnostic ratings, but...  I just can't for these two.  Rallies are good early but do not scale, so the fact that these would be great battalion abilities to have in an NG+ run of C1 / C2 counts for very little here (and are competing against Dance of the Goddess & friends if you Renown pump Authority on NG+).  You don't even get them THAT late, but the time for Rallies has already passed, they were at their best in C1-C7 or so.  Battleground Cafe is worse - just using an offensive Gambit or Curved Shot chip is almost always going to be better outside of weird constructed situations.  If you wanted just a bit more damage, then just chip normally (Curved Shot merely has to outdamage, what, 4 damage for a single hit, or 8 damage for a doubled hit?  Easy.); if you wanted lots more damage, you're probably fighting a monster, which means you'd rather break some monster barriers with a normal Gambit.  About the only thing it's good for is randomly spamming it on empty turns for experience.

Absolute Defense is not great either, but at least there's some hypothetical use for helping a unit hold a chokepoint, or maybe if you're fighting some extremely badass boss that just barely is OHKOing you and you need every buff you can get to survive.

Edited by SnowFire
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not only are these far worse than the rallies of Awakening and Fates (which I find to be decent but overrated), but in some ways they're also worse than the rallies of Three Houses (which I find to be poor but overrated). Obviously, the area of effect that these have is better than the single-target effect of rallies, but there are pretty substantial trade-offs as well. Rallies have infinite uses; these do not. Rallies can (on the right units) combine multiple effects; these do not. In theory, the action economy of being able to buf lots of units at once should be more than enough to counterbalance those weaknesses, but in practice, I've found it often doesn't work out that way. In order for these to be worth it, you not only have to have multiple units within the AoE, but also need to have the buffs make a meaningful difference by allowing the unit in question to pass some sort of break-point. When these let you score a kill or survive an attack you otherwise wouldn't have been able to, that's great. When they're applied to units who are already able to get a kill or units who won't be able to tank a hit even with the buff, they may as well not exist.

These probably are better than even the best rally-user in Three Houses, but it isn't a complete walkover. And that's damning, partly because rallies are pretty bad and partly because rallies don't take your gambit slot. Whenever I've brought one of these along to a battle, I've found that I just don't use them. The circumstances hardly ever line up to make them reach their theoretical potential, and I almost always have something better to do with the unit who has them. And that's when the unit doesn't have another gambit.

Of the two, I think I'd rather have the defense buff. Partly because 6 is bigger than 4, but also because it has less competition from rallies (by my count, five people have rally str but only two have rally def). Regardless, I'm unimpressed with both.

Absolute Defense: 3/10 // Battlefield Cafe: 2/10.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Wait, who gets Rally Defense?

/checks the site

Seteth, Gilbert, and Hapi... two of these are midgame, and the last is DLC and has a weakness in authority.

I'm pretty sure that including Hapi is an error on the site and that she actually only gets Rally Dexterity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I'm pretty sure that including Hapi is an error on the site and that she actually only gets Rally Dexterity.

Yeah, I just checked the wiki recently, and only Seteth and Gilbert get it, it turns out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolute Defense: 3/10

Defense just isn't a stat that scales well. With how hard enemies hit, most units want to just avoid counters entirely by using brave arts, one shoting, dodgetanking, or just attacking out of range. When enemies are hitting upwards of 40 attack by the time you get it, +6 Defense may not even save a unit on taking another hit without a good defensive battalion and shield. Worse part is units who actually try to stack Defense don't need it at all. Fortress Knight's 10 Defense Class mod with 17 base means it's very easy to hit 40+ Prt, so it's completely unnecessary for them.

Even if this gambit would last as long as Retribution, I'd still give it the same rating. Good stats on it's battalion though.

Battlefield Cafe: 4/10.

I'd actually value Rally Strength higher than this gambit. Two reasons for that. 1: Most units with Rally Strength provide some additional benefit such as applying Rally Speed from Annette or providing Luck like Alois for more consistent crit rates. 2: The only units that really benefit from rallies outside the earlygame is Wrath / Vantage users and Dodgetanks, of which you're really only limited to three so there's really not a need for AOE Rally Strength. Increasing the amount of Strength Player Phase units get is really unnecessary considering how easy it is for units to one round in Three Houses. +4 Strength isn't really necessary when you can stack +20 Attack on any given unit. 

Maybe if the map permanent Strength boost glitch was still around this would be higher. But alas, this is where this gambit belongs when functioning properly.

Edited by LoneRecon400
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/21/2021 at 3:56 AM, lenticular said:

Not only are these far worse than the rallies of Awakening and Fates (which I find to be decent but overrated), but in some ways they're also worse than the rallies of Three Houses (which I find to be poor but overrated).

Interesting. You've made me curious as to why you think this way, specifically with regard to rallies being overrated.

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Interesting. You've made me curious as to why you think this way, specifically with regard to rallies being overrated.

I don't want to go too far into the weeds on this, since it's wildly off-topic for this thread, but the summary version is that in Three Houses I find that they don't do enough to be worth it and drop off too quickly, whereas in Fates and Awakening, I think that they can be extremely powerful but require an awful lot of setup to reach that point and I'm generally not a fan of late game builds that require a lot of setup.

(And I'll also add that this is a "my personal opinion" type of thing, not an "objective analysis" type of thing. I don't have the detailed knowledge of Fates and Awakening necessary to do proper analysis.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I've learned anything from the last chapter, it's that we don't look too highly on having snacks in the middle of battle. Sorry, Raphael. Neither the Maids nor the Butlers were viewed as offering essential support gambits.

But with that, our work is done! All the gambits have been graded.

Endgame: Last Call for Grades and Revisions

Here's the list, as it currently stands, with each grade followed by (the number of grades provided):

On 6/3/2021 at 9:17 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Disturbance: 4.1 (5)

Onslaught: 2.9 (5)

Assembly: 3.2 (5)

Reversal: 2.2 (5)

Lure: 3.4 (5)

Assault Troop: 5.75 (4)

Flash-Fire Arrows: 6.25 (4)

Fusillade: 7 (4)

Poisoned Arrows: 7.875 (4)

Blaze: 5.8 (5)

Poison Tactic: 5.8 (5)

Absorption: 2.6 (5)

Mad Melee: 3.875 (4)

Group Lance Attack: 3 (4)

Random Shot: 1.75 (4)

Line of Lances: 6.25 (4)

Linked Horses: 3.875 (4)

Battleground Cleanup: 2.875 (4)

Group Flames: 4.875 (4)

Group Ice: 4.125 (4)

Group Lightning: 3 (4)

Resonant Flames: 7.25 (4)

Resonant Ice: 6.5 (4)

Resonant Lightning: 5.5 (4)

Raging Flames: 8.125 (4)

Wave Attack: 8.625 (4)

Ashes and Dust: 9.75 (4)

Impregnable Wall: 7.917 (6)

Sacred Shield: 5.667 (6)

Resonant White Magic: 2.8 (5)

Retribution: 9 (5)

Stride: 9.167 (6)

Recovery Roar: 1.583 (6)

Blessing: 5.643 (7)

Dance of the Goddess: 8.583 (6)

Absolute Defense: 3.5 (6)

Battleground Cafe: 3.667 (6)

That said, before anything is treated as final, I'd like to give everyone a chance to adjust their scores. Or, if you'd like, to give a grade to a gambit you've not yet considered. Maybe you missed one week. Or maybe your opinion on a gambit has sweetened or soured, upon further deliberation. Refresher of the grading guidelines:

On 6/3/2021 at 9:17 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Here's what I'm thinking - each Gambit will be graded on a scale from 1 to 10. If difficulty would be relevant to the ranking, let's assume New Game Maddening (if you're ranking by a different standard, of course I won't stop you, but please make it clear). In case it's relevant, again, assume access to DLC and Nintendo Switch Online. I'll provide my score, and everyone else is welcome to share their own score, too. Gambits will be graded on:

  • Damage and hit rate (offensive only)
  • Charges per map
  • Range and Area-of-Effect
  • Side and/or support effects

As important to figure out, though, is what I'd rather NOT see gambits graded on, such as:

  • What battalions they're attached too
  • Availability and Usability
  • Aesthetic considerations or personal taste

...Okay, maybe a +/-1 bias point will be allowed on the last one. But attributes of any associated battalion should not be considered. Why not? Well, when we eventually get to grading the battalions themselves, then those considerations (stat boosts, availability, usability) will be factored in, alongside gambit performance. For the time being, however, I'd like to try looking at each gambit, as much as possible, in a vacuum. Make sense?

Of course, this step is entirely optional. I'd like to have a "final" form of this list by early next week (say, Monday). With that said, here are my own grades which I will be adjusting:

Spoiler

Reversal: At first, I didn't know about the glitch, so my score was made without considering it. With the glitch in mind (whereby, it fails to rattle a second target past the initial one, should the Swap pull off), I'm definitely lowering this grade. That said, I still think 8 Might isn't too bad, and the Swap motion can have its merits. This is going from 4 to 2 out of 10.

Resonant Flames: When I've thought of my "desert island" offensive gambits - that is to say, the five offensive gambits I would bring into battle while forsaking the rest - Resonant Flames is almost certainly in that group. It might be in my "top 3", just behind Ashes and Dust and Wave Attack. It makes no sense for this one to sit a full grade below Raging Flames or Poisoned Arrows. I'm upping it from 7 to 8 out of 10.

Resonant Ice: For similar reasons to above, and the sake of grading consistency, this is going from 6 to 7 out of 10.

Resonant Lightning: You know the drill. This is going from 5 to 6 out of 10.

Resonant White Magic: Despite appearances to the contrary, it doesn't belong to the same family as the last three. That said, I may have been overly generous the first time around, on account of its availability. I definitely don't think it's on-par with Blessing, even as someone who tended to wag a finger at Blessing. I'm dropping this from 4 to 3 out of 10.

Recovery Roar: This one, I may have shown too much favor to on its usage count. More uses are always better than fewer, for sure. But if the base effect isn't a good one, and it never gets used a first time, do the next four even matter? I don't think this one is totally irredeemable, but I'm okay calling it the worst support gambit there is. Let's drop it from 3 to 2 out of 10.

If you're updating a grade, please list which value you're changing it from as well. That way, I can more conveniently update the collected grades, thereby updating the totals accurately. By the way, the current listed average grades don't reflect any of my updates. All updates will be reflected in the final, "definitive" post. Happy grading!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Battleground Cleanup: 4/10 -> 3/10

Absolute Defence: 4/10 -> 3/10

Suffice to say that, on reflection and reading comments from others, I think I'm overrating both of these a bit, and I'm happier with them a bit lower.

I'm also going to add a score for Dance of the Goddess, but full disclosure that I'm mostly motivated to do this by feeling that its current listed average score is too low. If you feel that my reacting to the score currently present is "gaming the system" I'll abstain, but I did already say that I thought the gambit belonged in the 9 to 10 range. I'll just go with Dance of the Goddess: 9.5/10 if that's okay. Netting three extra action is obviously very powerful, potentially insanely so due to the flexibility it offers. My litmus test for 10/10 is "would I trade Ashes and Dust for this in Reunion at Dawn" and I think my answer is no, though. Like Stride, I'd send it straight to 10 if I cared about speedrun strategies for maps, at that point it's one of the two best gambits in the game full stop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/24/2021 at 6:03 AM, lenticular said:

I don't want to go too far into the weeds on this, since it's wildly off-topic for this thread, but the summary version is that in Three Houses I find that they don't do enough to be worth it and drop off too quickly, whereas in Fates and Awakening, I think that they can be extremely powerful but require an awful lot of setup to reach that point and I'm generally not a fan of late game builds that require a lot of setup.

(And I'll also add that this is a "my personal opinion" type of thing, not an "objective analysis" type of thing. I don't have the detailed knowledge of Fates and Awakening necessary to do proper analysis.)

I suppose I can see where you're coming from. As far as Fates is concerned, I don't get much, if any, use out of rallies other than Defense myself, with Magic in particular being the least useful of all because mages are at a pretty big low in Fates (though considering that Awakening was a rather high point for them, it makes sense that the devs would knock them back down to earth).

Anyway... it's time I rated the others.

Disturbance gets a 5/10.
Onslaught gets a 3/10. The loss of hit relative to Disturbance is pretty unappealing, and the push back effect can be a hindrance, as often I want to finish off a rattled enemy on the same turn I rattle them, and pushing them away does not help me do that.
Assembly gets a 4/10. The draw back effect helps with finishing off rattled enemies.
2/10 for Reversal.
4/10 for Lure. 

6/10 for both Assault Troop and Flash-Fire Arrows

Blaze and Poison Tactic both get a 6/10. They're more-or-less the same thing.
Absorption gets a 1/10. The huge area of effect is nice (only the Resonant gambits, Ashes and Dust, and Wave Attack have an AOE that's as big as this), but everything else about it ISN'T, especially the hit. Simply put, nothing about it makes sense to me.

4/10 for Mad Melee
3/10 for Group Lance Attack
2/10 for Random Shot

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, we did it. I hoped for finishing within six weeks, and we did it in eight. I'll take this as a win.

First off, here is the final listing of gambits, with associated scores (and numbers of grades):

On 6/3/2021 at 9:17 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Disturbance: 4.25 (6)

Onslaught: 2.917 (6)

Assembly: 3.333 (6)

Reversal: 1.833 (6)

Lure: 3.5 (6)

Assault Troop: 5.8 (5)

Flash-Fire Arrows: 6.2 (5)

Fusillade: 7 (4)

Poisoned Arrows: 7.875 (4)

Blaze: 5.833 (6)

Poison Tactic: 5.833 (6)

Absorption: 2.333 (6)

Mad Melee: 3.9 (5)

Group Lance Attack: 3 (5)

Random Shot: 1.8 (5)

Line of Lances: 6.25 (4)

Linked Horses: 3.875 (4)

Battleground Cleanup: 2.875 (4)

Group Flames: 4.875 (4)

Group Ice: 4.125 (4)

Group Lightning: 3 (4)

Resonant Flames: 7.5 (4)

Resonant Ice: 6.75 (4)

Resonant Lightning: 5.75 (4)

Raging Flames: 8.125 (4)

Wave Attack: 8.625 (4)

Ashes and Dust: 9.75 (4)

Impregnable Wall: 7.917 (6)

Sacred Shield: 5.667 (6)

Resonant White Magic: 2.6 (5)

Retribution: 9 (5)

Stride: 9.167 (6)

Recovery Roar: 1.417 (6)

Blessing: 5.643 (7)

Dance of the Goddess: 8.714 (7)

Absolute Defense: 3.333 (6)

Battleground Cafe: 3.5 (6)

Ah, but what if we want to see these in order? Maybe get a bit more detail attached to them? Well, let's make a prettier version!

Quote

9.75: Ashes and Dust (2D)

9.17: Stride (2D)

9.00: Retribution (2B)

8.71: Dance of the Goddess (1P)

8.63: Wave Attack (2D)

8.13: Raging Flames (2X)

7.92: Impregnable Wall (5F)

7.88: Poisoned Arrows (2P)

7.50: Resonant Flames (1D)

7.00: Fusillade (2P)

6.75: Resonant Ice (1D)

6.25: Line of Lances (2B)

6.20: Flash-Fire Arrows (2L)

5.83: Poison Tactic (1T)

5.83: Blaze (1T)

5.80: Assault Troop (2L)

5.75: Resonant Lightning (1D)

5.67: Sacred Shield (5F)

5.64: Blessing (1P)

4.88: Group Flames (1P)

4.25: Disturbance (2S)

4.13: Group Ice (1P)

3.90: Mad Melee (2F)

3.88: Linked Horses (1B)

3.50: Lure (2S)

3.50: Battleground Cafe (3T)

3.33: Assembly (2S)

3.33: Absolute Defense (2T)

3.00: Group Lance Attack (2F)

3.00: Group Lightning (1P)

2.92: Onslaught (2S)

2.88: Battleground Cleanup (1B)

2.60: Resonant White Magic (3B)

2.33: Absorption (1D)

1.83: Reversal (2S)

1.80: Random Shot (2F)

1.42: Recovery Roar (5D)

Wherein, the scores are rounded to the hundredths place (there were no cases where rounding would make two gambits with different scores be misrepresented as having received the same score). And, gambit names are color-coded, according to whether they are physical, magical, or supportive. And finally, as an additional reminder, each one is suffixed by how many charges it gets per map, as well as a character representative of its Area-of-Effect (whether Short Line, Long Line, Plus Sign, Triangle, Diamond, Front, Box, or Large Box).

I just wanna say, I'm really grateful for everyone who's participated in this series. It's genuinely great to be part of a community who cares as much about Fire Emblem as I do (which is probably too much, haha). And even considering the minutiae, like gambits, is a pretty fun time. I'm glad, not only to have had the chance to put my own thoughts out there, but to hear what everyone else has to say. And even, on occasion, get my mind changed.

That all said, what comes next? As I mentioned at the start, I would like to parlay this series into something bigger - an analysis of all the battalions in the game. There's a lot more to consider here (i.e. stat boosts, availability, usability), but at least looking at gambits has given us a foothold. I anticipate the format to be roughly the same - covering multiple battalions in one "chapter", each of which will last a few days, and giving each one a grade out of 10. I plan on taking a brief break, but still kicking off the next series before too long - say, early August? And if anyone has name recommendations (the best I've come up with thus far is "Let's Banter 'Bout Battalions", which I'm not totally satisfied with), I'm all ears.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I just wanna say, I'm really grateful for everyone who's participated in this series. It's genuinely great to be part of a community who cares as much about Fire Emblem as I do (which is probably too much, haha). And even considering the minutiae, like gambits, is a pretty fun time. I'm glad, not only to have had the chance to put my own thoughts out there, but to hear what everyone else has to say. And even, on occasion, get my mind changed.

It was fun. Thank you for taking the time to run it.

(I will also add that I did change my mind a little bit on a few gambits through the course of the discussion. That I didn't change my grades wasn't because I'm entirely happy with the grades I gave, but because I figured I'd probably be equally unhappy with any other modified set of grades I gave.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Well, we did it. I hoped for finishing within six weeks, and we did it in eight. I'll take this as a win.

First off, here is the final listing of gambits, with associated scores (and numbers of grades):

Ah, but what if we want to see these in order? Maybe get a bit more detail attached to them? Well, let's make a prettier version!

Wherein, the scores are rounded to the hundredths place (there were no cases where rounding would make two gambits with different scores be misrepresented as having received the same score). And, gambit names are color-coded, according to whether they are physical, magical, or supportive. And finally, as an additional reminder, each one is suffixed by how many charges it gets per map, as well as a character representative of its Area-of-Effect (whether Short Line, Long Line, Plus Sign, Triangle, Diamond, Front, Box, or Large Box).

I just wanna say, I'm really grateful for everyone who's participated in this series. It's genuinely great to be part of a community who cares as much about Fire Emblem as I do (which is probably too much, haha). And even considering the minutiae, like gambits, is a pretty fun time. I'm glad, not only to have had the chance to put my own thoughts out there, but to hear what everyone else has to say. And even, on occasion, get my mind changed.

That all said, what comes next? As I mentioned at the start, I would like to parlay this series into something bigger - an analysis of all the battalions in the game. There's a lot more to consider here (i.e. stat boosts, availability, usability), but at least looking at gambits has given us a foothold. I anticipate the format to be roughly the same - covering multiple battalions in one "chapter", each of which will last a few days, and giving each one a grade out of 10. I plan on taking a brief break, but still kicking off the next series before too long - say, early August? And if anyone has name recommendations (the best I've come up with thus far is "Let's Banter 'Bout Battalions", which I'm not totally satisfied with), I'm all ears.

Make sure you restrict it to battalions the player actually gets. There's a good chunk the player never gets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...