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Why I think Ike is overrated and Gatrie almost as good


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2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Nephenee:
“Brom… Didn’t you say somethin’ about usin’ axes these days…not spears?”

Brom:
“Uh, yeah… I suppose I did. What, ya went and brought armor AND weapons?”

Stated at the start of 2-1. He didn't forget, he didn't want.

I know that handwave exists, but it doesn't change the fact that his lance rank disappears between games. And specifically calling attention to that fact actually served more to ruin my immersion than to keep it (it doesn't really bother me as much that Jill, for example, forgot to use lances too, because the game didn't outright highlight that fact for me).

Edited by Jotari
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On 6/3/2021 at 8:54 PM, the actual real soul said:

I was doing a tier list for fun, and I got reminded of this. For a while, I always felt Ike was somewhat overrated, and other GMs like Gatrie and maybe even transfers Boyd are almost as good.

In HM, Ike consistently needs Spd procs to double consistently. You need about 26-27 Spd to double throughtout most of Part 3, and Ike either needs a lot of levels, or a lot of luck to get there... or a Speedwings, which can still go to other characters. On Gatrie's side, most of the arguement I see is in regards to his mobility and Spd cap.

Ike starts out with 23 Spd at base, and that's enough to double some enemies in 3-1 & 3-2. While Gatrie does have less Spd (20 at base), he also has 60% Spd growth. It's one his top 3 highest growths, tied with Str & Def. While he does have less Spd, he can potentially get more out of levels, and especially through BEXP (if necessary). It's not hard for him to cap Spd a lot easier. But we know capping it isn't the issue, as is the cap itself. He can take the 3-4 Crown either there or by 3-5, allowing him to double through all of Part 3 and only falling short by Endgame.

And lastly, his mobility. It's a really easy fix, and that's Celerity. I don't think it's nearly as contested as people have made it seem, and I sure wouldn't give it to Haar to have overkill Mov. I'm not just giving it to someone that needs it, but also heavily thrives off of it. Gatrie has some of the highest Str and Def in the game, while also having enough Spd and growth to double and 1RKO consistently... and he also has the best 2 range weapons available, which are Axes.

 

Ike constantly needs Spd levels to double consistently and lacks good 2 range options until Ragnell. I argue Gatrie can be really damn good without that much effort, and they're basically comparable by Part 4 before the Tower.

 

Interesting take. The thing i disagree with is that even if Gatrie has a 60% speed growth his cap in Tier 2 is really low, being 23 (so same as base Ike). That means that he really needs the Crown to function. The first one you get is on 3-3, so that means Ike had 4 chapter (In which he is the best combat unit) to get out of his 23 speed and get at least 1 or 2 procs and on top of that, his base 24 str means he is only 3 procs away to capping, so he can easly patch up his speed with Bexp.

 

Celerity is not overkill for Haar, specially when some chapters have really tight turn requirements for max Bexp. This allows him to clear lots of enemies before anybody else, so easier clears.

 

Lastly, you said that Gatrie can be good without much effort, but everything you described seems like a lot of effort to me. Bexp to cap, the first Crown which other units want, Celerity which is probably one of the best skills in the game. In contrast to well, Ike, who only needs some Bexp levels to get to 27 spd. In part 4 tho there is no contest. Ike with Ragnell is pretty much better. I would say tho, all in all Gatrie it is an interesting unit that can certainly become good, but being better than Ike, well, i dont see it.

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9 minutes ago, Nio said:

 

Interesting take. The thing i disagree with is that even if Gatrie has a 60% speed growth his cap in Tier 2 is really low, being 23 (so same as base Ike). That means that he really needs the Crown to function. The first one you get is on 3-3, so that means Ike had 4 chapter (In which he is the best combat unit) to get out of his 23 speed and get at least 1 or 2 procs and on top of that, his base 24 str means he is only 3 procs away to capping, so he can easly patch up his speed with Bexp.

 

Celerity is not overkill for Haar, specially when some chapters have really tight turn requirements for max Bexp. This allows him to clear lots of enemies before anybody else, so easier clears.

 

Lastly, you said that Gatrie can be good without much effort, but everything you described seems like a lot of effort to me. Bexp to cap, the first Crown which other units want, Celerity which is probably one of the best skills in the game. In contrast to well, Ike, who only needs some Bexp levels to get to 27 spd. In part 4 tho there is no contest. Ike with Ragnell is pretty much better. I would say tho, all in all Gatrie it is an interesting unit that can certainly become good, but being better than Ike, well, i dont see it.

To be fair to the OP, it never actually says Gatrie is better! It says he's almost as good as Ike. While this has been a very Gatrie focused topic, the actual question is whether Ike is overrated.

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24 minutes ago, Nio said:

Celerity is not overkill for Haar, specially when some chapters have really tight turn requirements for max Bexp. This allows him to clear lots of enemies before anybody else, so easier clears.

Special mention to 3-3, where he's the best choice for it by far due to flight allowing him to get to the supplies that are farther away from the start well before anyone else.

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Extra movement on a unit with canto is never really over kill. There's always going to be that one unit you want to perform a hit and run tactic on, and an extra point of movement means an extra space of range to get to safety.

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I'm going to address a lot of the common points mention, and why I think Gatrie is arguably one of the better ones (if not best), for these kind of resources:

Spoiler

Celerity

It's not nearly as contested as people make it out to be. You can give it to basically anyone, then what...? You're just giving them extra movement for the sake of it. Who else wants it that bad? Oscar and Mia prefer Adept, the healers sure as hell don't take it, etc.

 

- Ike gets 9 Mov when he never needed it, and he still has all the issues I mentioned (no 2 range and borderline doubling).

- Haar is literally just overkill.

- Most others either perform worse than Gatrie or, again, literally don't even need it. This fixes most of Gatrie's problems.

 

Master Crown

Haar and Titania can live without it and you can still get solid turncounts and overall performance, while giving one to Gatrie enables another beast into the team.

 

And then there's minor issues, like magic and Hammers, which are not really that much of an issue. Most of the good GMs don't struggle to dodge, and it still takes like 3 hits to put down Gatrie with magic, and Hammers barely exist.

I also find that people overstimate the Spd cap problem with some characters, like when it comes to Gatrie, and even Haar and Oscar (who have 24 Spd caps). Gatrie is so likely to cap his Spd, that by the time he promotes, he can start out with 25 Spd and keep doubling throughout all of Part 3. The fastest non Swordmaster enemies reach 23 Spd, and these are actually more rare by around 3-E. And it's a similiar deal when it comes to Part 4, where 31 Spd only stops doubling by around 4-E-1 or 4-E-2, and by then these characters would've done a lot.

Endgame performance has always been overrated, and it's not like most Beorc characters are MVP.

 

Edited by the actual real soul
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I think what really matters here is how you validate resource use.

I say, if Gatrie wants Celerity, let him have Celerity. If anyone makes good use of any particular resource, let them have it. Judge them in that context. Gatrie gets a lot out of Celerity, but it not only means no one else can use it, he also can't use something else, like Adept or whatever. He wants the Master Crown? Give it to him. Same thing (except the "he can't use something else" part, naturally). If someone else doesn't need these things to perform as well as him, it just means they're better than him because they can let someone else use those. If this makes him better than someone who would otherwise be better than him, give them whatever realistic and favorable resources they need. If there isn't something like that for them, well, that's their flaw. If a unit has a disadvantage that can be patched up with resources (i.e. Gatrie can take Celerity for his movement), and another unit has a disadvantage that can't be patched up with resources (i.e. Ike can't use a Master Crown to promote), the advantage is for the former. Opportunity cost still needs to be considered, but those resources are there; use them.

Historically unit debates have been very stingy with resources, and while I understand why (I was there), we need to move past that. I'd rather judge units based on if I'm actually making a serious attempt to use them, not some fanciful scenario that never actually sees the light of a tv screen.

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2 hours ago, Florete said:

I think what really matters here is how you validate resource use.

I say, if Gatrie wants Celerity, let him have Celerity. If anyone makes good use of any particular resource, let them have it. Judge them in that context. Gatrie gets a lot out of Celerity, but it not only means no one else can use it, he also can't use something else, like Adept or whatever. He wants the Master Crown? Give it to him. Same thing (except the "he can't use something else" part, naturally). If someone else doesn't need these things to perform as well as him, it just means they're better than him because they can let someone else use those. If this makes him better than someone who would otherwise be better than him, give them whatever realistic and favorable resources they need. If there isn't something like that for them, well, that's their flaw. If a unit has a disadvantage that can be patched up with resources (i.e. Gatrie can take Celerity for his movement), and another unit has a disadvantage that can't be patched up with resources (i.e. Ike can't use a Master Crown to promote), the advantage is for the former. Opportunity cost still needs to be considered, but those resources are there; use them.

Historically unit debates have been very stingy with resources, and while I understand why (I was there), we need to move past that. I'd rather judge units based on if I'm actually making a serious attempt to use them, not some fanciful scenario that never actually sees the light of a tv screen.

Well by using a master crown on him he does miss out on some extra levels in the long run, but more importantly in he short run he misses out on the BEXP exploit to give him more stats in specific categories once he's capped several stats. Unless you want to bonus exp him from 15->20 and then use master crown, which, even though I have done that to save a level, you're probably just better off selling the thing and having him promote mid map from another level up.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Well by using a master crown on him he does miss out on some extra levels in the long run, but more importantly in he short run he misses out on the BEXP exploit to give him more stats in specific categories once he's capped several stats. Unless you want to bonus exp him from 15->20 and then use master crown, which, even though I have done that to save a level, you're probably just better off selling the thing and having him promote mid map from another level up.

You cannot sell Seals or crowns.

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1 minute ago, Vicious Sal said:

You cannot sell Seals or crowns.

Oh really? Bit of a shame, I wonder why. Anyway my main point was that there are things to be missed out on early promoting (at least early promoting before level 20).

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Oh really? Bit of a shame, I wonder why. Anyway my main point was that there are things to be missed out on early promoting (at least early promoting before level 20).

Not really, At lvl 15 Gatrie will already have capped HP, STR and SPD. 
By giving him BEXP level ups to 20 you'll most likely gain Skll, Def and Res. 

However, just crowning at 15 will lose you only 2 skll, lck and res in the long run. Since even when promoted at 15 Gatrie still caps Def on average in T3, even with 5 fewer levels. 
The immediate boost of 25 spd and 29 attack alows for ORKO's that unpromoted gatrie won't have. Since you won't have enough BEXP to promote him in 3-2 or 3-3. 3-4 would be the earliest with BESXp promotion and he's not particularly useful there because of ledges. 

There's hardly any reason to not crown Gatrie at 15 because you'd be giving up on doubling benchmarks and ORKo potential for only 2skll, lck and res.

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4 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

Not really, At lvl 15 Gatrie will already have capped HP, STR and SPD. 
By giving him BEXP level ups to 20 you'll most likely gain Skll, Def and Res. 

However, just crowning at 15 will lose you only 2 skll, lck and res in the long run. Since even when promoted at 15 Gatrie still caps Def on average in T3, even with 5 fewer levels. 
The immediate boost of 25 spd and 29 attack alows for ORKO's that unpromoted gatrie won't have. Since you won't have enough BEXP to promote him in 3-2 or 3-3. 3-4 would be the earliest with BESXp promotion and he's not particularly useful there because of ledges. 

There's hardly any reason to not crown Gatrie at 15 because you'd be giving up on doubling benchmarks and ORKo potential for only 2skll, lck and res.

Still 2 skill, luck and res you might want though. To aid of your point, promotion doesn't just grant doubling opportunities, but a mastery skill too (no more move unfortunately), and swords access, but I doubt there's much use there.

Edited by Jotari
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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Still 2 skill, luck and res you might want though. To aid of your point, promotion doesn't just grant doubling opportunities, but a mastery skill too (no more move unfortunately), and swords access, but I doubt there's much use there.

That's 4 Hit (forges exist and 5 extra hit does not break the bank if you'd even need it)
2 Lck is 2 avoid, which is negligble and 2 dodge. That's 16 vs 18 crit avoid. That's 0 on most enemies and Killer lances and swords don't do much vs Gatrie. There are iirc no killer axes around.

2 Res is fixed with a pure water. 

There is no good reason to wait with promoting gatrie, the BEXP is not a resource that is a worthwhile investment in Gatrie. The payout is too low to justify it. A crown in 3-3 gets you so much more. Now I wouldn't call crown gatrie efficient, but that's the current assumed use. The BEXP, even if assumed to be able to be used on Gatrie, just isn't paying out it's worth.

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13 hours ago, Florete said:

I think what really matters here is how you validate resource use.

I say, if Gatrie wants Celerity, let him have Celerity. If anyone makes good use of any particular resource, let them have it. Judge them in that context. Gatrie gets a lot out of Celerity, but it not only means no one else can use it, he also can't use something else, like Adept or whatever. He wants the Master Crown? Give it to him. Same thing (except the "he can't use something else" part, naturally). If someone else doesn't need these things to perform as well as him, it just means they're better than him because they can let someone else use those. If this makes him better than someone who would otherwise be better than him, give them whatever realistic and favorable resources they need. If there isn't something like that for them, well, that's their flaw. If a unit has a disadvantage that can be patched up with resources (i.e. Gatrie can take Celerity for his movement), and another unit has a disadvantage that can't be patched up with resources (i.e. Ike can't use a Master Crown to promote), the advantage is for the former. Opportunity cost still needs to be considered, but those resources are there; use them.

Historically unit debates have been very stingy with resources, and while I understand why (I was there), we need to move past that. I'd rather judge units based on if I'm actually making a serious attempt to use them, not some fanciful scenario that never actually sees the light of a tv screen.

That's a cool way to see it, and I'm glad someone else agree you don't have to use Haar every single time (or at least not turn him into Solo Mode MVP). Even if you don't Crown Haar, he's still really good and retains most of his value.

What I'm suggesting doesn't even hinder the team or most other units, like I mentioned with Haar, Titania usually promotes naturally, Oscar or Mia can still use Adept, etc.

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well by using a master crown on him he does miss out on some extra levels in the long run, but more importantly in he short run he misses out on the BEXP exploit to give him more stats in specific categories once he's capped several stats. Unless you want to bonus exp him from 15->20 and then use master crown, which, even though I have done that to save a level, you're probably just better off selling the thing and having him promote mid map from another level up.

I was also suggesting he promotes at lvl.15, which is as soon as he caps Spd. He really doesn't miss out on a lot he can get afterwards, let alone compared to the amount of reward he gets from doing so.

 

 

Edited by the actual real soul
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21 hours ago, the actual real soul said:

I'm going to address a lot of the common points mention, and why I think Gatrie is arguably one of the better ones (if not best), for these kind of resources:

 

  Hide contents

 

  Hide contents

Celerity

It's not nearly as contested as people make it out to be. You can give it to basically anyone, then what...? You're just giving them extra movement for the sake of it. Who else wants it that bad? Oscar and Mia prefer Adept, the healers sure as hell don't take it, etc.

 

- Ike gets 9 Mov when he never needed it, and he still has all the issues I mentioned (no 2 range and borderline doubling).

- Haar is literally just overkill.

- Most others either perform worse than Gatrie or, again, literally don't even need it. This fixes most of Gatrie's problems.

 

Master Crown

Haar and Titania can live without it and you can still get solid turncounts and overall performance, while giving one to Gatrie enables another beast into the team.

 

And then there's minor issues, like magic and Hammers, which are not really that much of an issue. Most of the good GMs don't struggle to dodge, and it still takes like 3 hits to put down Gatrie with magic, and Hammers barely exist.

I also find that people overstimate the Spd cap problem with some characters, like when it comes to Gatrie, and even Haar and Oscar (who have 24 Spd caps). Gatrie is so likely to cap his Spd, that by the time he promotes, he can start out with 25 Spd and keep doubling throughout all of Part 3. The fastest non Swordmaster enemies reach 23 Spd, and these are actually more rare by around 3-E. And it's a similiar deal when it comes to Part 4, where 31 Spd only stops doubling by around 4-E-1 or 4-E-2, and by then these characters would've done a lot.

Endgame performance has always been overrated, and it's not like most Beorc characters are MVP.

 

 

Ike has 2 range, this is no GBA. Wind swords suck, sure, but it is enough to 1 round mages and not being a EP sitting duck. He also dosnt have bordeline doubling problems. He growths even more than the other Mercenaries cause he is the best combat unit for a good couple chapters, so he would get either spd or other stats that would help him patch his spd with Bexp. He is not stuck at 23 spd the same way that Gatrie wont be at 20.

Again, i dont think Gatrie is bad, you made a solid argument for him. I just dont think he is nearly "as good" when he needs major investment to perform similar to Ike, which barely needs anything and in Part 4 is a no contest. I think Ike is rated exactly where he should be, one of the best units of the game, and i agree that Gatrie is underrated.

Btw, Celerity on Haar is not overkill. Sure, you can give the skill to Gatrie or others and Haar would be fine, but he gets to do more stuff and clears chapters faster for the Bexp turn requirement, so giving it to him is perfectly fine.

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It's stupid overkill. He has 9 mov and he flies, and you're prioritizing it over a unit with one of the better combat performances (who needs it and makes best use of it).

Wind Swords are really bad, and the only thing he can kill with them is mages, like you said. He 3-4HKOs everything else, and you'd otherwise need Adept. Wind Edge is almost as bad as Crossbow, and Storm Sword is hardly available and only has 20 uses (and 12 Mt still cuts it short on enemies).

And I don't know what you're referring to with the first sentence, really. He is borderline on doubling, at least on HM. He has 23 Spd and 35% Spd growth. He needs to proc Spd most levels if he wants to keep doubling consistently.

 

Gatrie doesn't need "major" invesment to do well. It's just two resources that aren't as contested as a lot of people claim to be. Their isn't any actual difference in their Part 4 combat, either. They both 1RKO, and the only real difference is the Tower, where 31 Spd cap finally stops working for Gatrie.

Edited by the actual real soul
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4 hours ago, the actual real soul said:

And I don't know what you're referring to with the first sentence, really. He is borderline on doubling, at least on HM. He has 23 Spd and 35% Spd growth. He needs to proc Spd most levels if he wants to keep doubling consistently.

 

Gatrie doesn't need "major" invesment to do well. It's just two resources that aren't as contested as a lot of people claim to be. Their isn't any actual difference in their Part 4 combat, either. They both 1RKO, and the only real difference is the Tower, where 31 Spd cap finally stops working for Gatrie.

Edited 4 hours ago by the actual real soul

Ike is borderline on doubling the faster non-SM enemies at points, but therefore so is Gatrie, since Gatrie is unlikely to ever get a significant lead on Ike speed-wise.

  • At join, Ike leads 23 to 20
  • After both gain 5 levels, Ike leads at (just under) 25 to 23.
  • After Gatrie gets a Master Crown, they're about tied.
  • Thereafter, Ike is gaining enough more exp per kill than Gatrie to roughly offset the speed growth differential, and they remain roughly tied until...
  • Gatrie may get a slight lead over Ike while Ike waits for promotion. I'm not sure what levels you're having him reach in Part 3, but it's at most 1-2 points. Then Ike promotes and this goes away.
  • For what it's worth, I don't think Ike is likely to get that far above Gatrie's speed cap to matter. It's possible though.

The only time one has a notable speed lead over the other is out of the gate. Thereafter they're broadly similar.

 

Otherwise, Ike has +1 move on Gatrie, and didn't take a contested resource in the 3-3 Master Crown. If you give Ike another contested resource, like a Speedwings, to compensate, he's faster than Gatrie forever. Agreed that Gatrie has better 1-2 during the stretch of the game before Ragnell, but Ike has better 1-2 range after.

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That's actually pretty well summarized. If I could add something, it'd be minimal. At the end of the day, it doesn't really take away what I said, and it's important to remember I said "almost" as good, and not outright better.

I'm tempted to make a run to prove that.

Edited by the actual real soul
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