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  1. 1. Bishop is a great class ?



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It's fine but definitely not one of the best. I would consider it balanced overall (actually, I largely feel that way about all the magic classes from Level 20 on, which is nice; definitely better than the physical class balance!)

Pros:
-Healing+10 is cool if your character is gonna use Physic/Fortify a lot.
-Double White Uses, mostly useful for Warp and Fortify.

Cons:
-4 move is bad (admittedly, pre-DLC, all spellcasters have 4 move at this tier, but it does mean you want to upgrade out of it at Level 30)
-One of the few advanced jobs without a -faire skill, resulting in low damage output.
-Requring an A (B+ realistically) in faith by Level 20 to qualify is pretty steep if the character doesn't want to go to A in faith anyway.

IMO, the only characters who should consider it are Linhardt, Mercedes, Lysithea, Flayn, and Manuela. Of those, all the women should upgrade to Gremory if possible, though in Manuela/Flayn's case the Reason investment may be offputting. With the DLC considered, I'd be inclined to drop Lysithea's name from the list, the DLC classes are just a much better match for her offensive capabilities and she doesn't benefit from Heal+10 much (as well as having little interest in boosting her faith after reaching B rank).

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10 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

You'd be better off with Holy Knight

Hard disagree there, because the extra move does NOT make up for the fact that Holy Knight is just bad. You lose extra healing and doubled white magic uses and gain what, extra damage with offensive white magic when offensive white magic sucks ass with the exception of Seraphim? Can you say" losing trade"? Because that is a flat-out losing trade if I ever saw one.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Hard disagree there, because the extra move does NOT make up for the fact that Holy Knight is just bad. You lose extra healing and doubled white magic uses and gain what, extra damage with offensive white magic? Can you say" losing trade"? Because that is a flat-out losing trade if I ever saw one.

I mainly keep my Holy Knight around for the extra movement. Plus, mines also uses black magic. The benefit that these classes give are kind of weird and inconsistent, now that I looked at it. At least Bishop gets Renewal, which doesn't really kick in if you know what you're doing.

 

Wait, does 3H have any hard counters against magic, anyways? Aside from being silenced and the occasional monster that's immune to it.

Edited by Armchair General

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1 minute ago, Armchair General said:

I mainly keep my Holy Knight around for the extra movement. Plus, mines also uses black magic. 

 

Wait, does 3H have any hard counters against magic, anyways? Aside from being silenced and the occasional monster that's immune to it.

If you were using black magic, you might as well go Dark Knight instead (it's better than Holy Knight, though that's not saying much when Holy Knight is in the running for worst Master class in the goddamn game).

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11 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

If you were using black magic, you might as well go Dark Knight instead (it's better than Holy Knight, though that's not saying much when Holy Knight is in the running for worst Master class in the goddamn game).

Well, I'm playing Golden Deer, Marianne was better at Faith than Reason, wasn't really worth maxing out in Reason because I had enough black magic spells for her to last an entire fight. 

 

So I went Holy Knight because she was already qualified for it and I'm kind of indifferent about it because magic ruins just about anything on Hard.

 

But you're right, Holy Knight is a shit class, compared to the Dark Knight. At the very least, they could have thrown in some more offensive Faith spells that weren't a nuke.

Edited by Armchair General

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32 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Well, I'm playing Golden Deer, Marianne was better at Faith than Reason, wasn't really worth maxing out in Reason because I had enough black magic spells for her to last an entire fight. 

 

So I went Holy Knight because she was already qualified for it and I'm kind of indifferent about it because magic ruins just about anything on Hard.

 

But you're right, Holy Knight is a shit class, compared to the Dark Knight. At the very least, they could have thrown in some more offensive Faith spells that weren't a nuke.

What kills Holy Knight as a class for me is that whatever it can do, another magic class does better. Offense wise, it loses to Dark Knight or Gremory because offensive faith magic is terrible (you know something is wrong then the basic spell has 8 weight and only 1 might...). Support wise, Bishop is better because it has doubled white magic and extra healing. It might have a purpose if the game actually had worthwhile offensive white magic, but as it is, the Holy Knight class is a Master of None that was not thought through well at all.

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Just now, RainbowMoon said:

Best class for healers? Yes.

Best class in the whole game? Hell no.

I second this as well. I usually have at least one or two on my team because the stronger healing they provide is a big deal.

Is it the best class? Simple answer to that is no with the pros and cons that was already mentioned.

Still they are viable to have on your team pending on your formation. As long as they got Physic, any other spell like Restore, Warp, Rescue and Fortify are they then they are welcome. Of course I can also get down with Seraphim too. 16 uses of a decent offensive spell that hurts monsters are always a plus.

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50 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

What kills Holy Knight as a class for me is that whatever it can do, another magic class does better. Offense wise, it loses to Dark Knight or Gremory because offensive faith magic is terrible (you know something is wrong then the basic spell has 8 weight and only 1 might...). Support wise, Bishop is better because it has doubled white magic and extra healing. It might have a purpose if the game actually had worthwhile offensive white magic, but as it is, the Holy Knight class is a Master of None that was not thought through well at all.

I think it's related to the stereotype that the white mages aren't supposed to be the ones fighting, reds can do a little bit of everything but they aren't getting the best deal, and the blacks will nuke everything in sight but will eventually need something to heal them.

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I’ma say hell yeah but only because I’m biased. Bishops are my favorite class in all of Fire Emblem alongside Bow Knights.

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1 hour ago, Armchair General said:

I think it's related to the stereotype that the white mages aren't supposed to be the ones fighting, reds can do a little bit of everything but they aren't getting the best deal, and the blacks will nuke everything in sight but will eventually need something to heal them.

It's interesting that you bring that comparison because in the early days of Final Fantasy Red Mages while versatile couldn't do everything that a Fighter, Black Mage and White Mage can but is more durable than their dedicated magical counterparts. They can hold their own. Nowadays, the black and white magic users are more prominent.

Three Houses has this same thing going on for them. Sure you can do Holy Knight or Mortal Savant if you have a specific build in mind with certain characters but more dedicated magic users like Gremory, Bishop and to an extent Dark Knight are preferred. Even the Enlightened One can mix and match with good healing thanks to Recovery and good damage with Swordfaire + Sublime Creator Sword. And the EO is a better version of Mortal Savant.

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1 hour ago, Barren said:

Three Houses has this same thing going on for them. Sure you can do Holy Knight or Mortal Savant if you have a specific build in mind with certain characters but more dedicated magic users like Gremory, Bishop and to an extent Dark Knight are preferred. Even the Enlightened One can mix and match with good healing thanks to Recovery and good damage with Swordfaire + Sublime Creator Sword. And the EO is a better version of Mortal Savant.

Mortal Savant is rather clearly better than Enlightened One if both are available. They're similar classes (6 move, Swordfaire, full magic access), but Mortal Savant has Black Tomefaire and EO does not. Enlightened One's advantage is that you get it for free, and most likely before Level 30. But Mortal Savant's superiority definitely came up for me when I made a magic-focused Byleth as part of my all-mage run.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Mortal Savant is rather clearly better than Enlightened One if both are available. They're similar classes (6 move, Swordfaire, full magic access), but Mortal Savant has Black Tomefaire and EO does not. Enlightened One's advantage is that you get it for free, and most likely before Level 30. But Mortal Savant's superiority definitely came up for me when I made a magic-focused Byleth as part of my all-mage run.

I would disagree unless you frequently use black magic with Byleth, which I do not.

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4 hours ago, Barren said:

It's interesting that you bring that comparison because in the early days of Final Fantasy Red Mages while versatile couldn't do everything that a Fighter, Black Mage and White Mage can but is more durable than their dedicated magical counterparts. They can hold their own. Nowadays, the black and white magic users are more prominent.

Three Houses has this same thing going on for them. Sure you can do Holy Knight or Mortal Savant if you have a specific build in mind with certain characters but more dedicated magic users like Gremory, Bishop and to an extent Dark Knight are preferred. Even the Enlightened One can mix and match with good healing thanks to Recovery and good damage with Swordfaire + Sublime Creator Sword. And the EO is a better version of Mortal Savant.

I think it's something that exists in a lot of RPGs: You can't have someone who's good at nearly everything, you need an incentive for something to be regularly used, stuff needs a few drawbacks to avoid complacency, and said drawbacks shouldn't get in the way of holding back the character too much.

 

Although with Holy Knights and this game's spell list, you can see where this is going.

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9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Mortal Savant is rather clearly better than Enlightened One if both are available. They're similar classes (6 move, Swordfaire, full magic access), but Mortal Savant has Black Tomefaire and EO does not. Enlightened One's advantage is that you get it for free, and most likely before Level 30. But Mortal Savant's superiority definitely came up for me when I made a magic-focused Byleth as part of my all-mage run.

Mortal Savant is more offensively minded and in some cases better suited for magic damage than the EO you are right. I was thinking in terms of availability, investment and growths.

You wouldn’t have to invest too much to make a decent Enlightened One if all you want to focus on is swords and authority. Plus you’ll be frequently using the choir to build your faith or at times have manuela or rhea tutor you in faith at least for part one.

Mortal Savant has a bit of a painful -10% speed growth. That I can deal with if need be. I’ve made Yuri a Mortal Savant because he can afford the speed drop. I think what holds that back for me when it comes to Byleth is that his reason list isn’t all that special. Fire, Thunder, Bolganone and Ragnarok while not too bad, once you hit rank C, you’ll have to wait until rank A to learn your last spell. Same with their faith spell list actually.

I never did try making Byleth A Mortal Savant but perhaps for a Black Eagles maddening run I could try it and see if it’s good. I know that Mortal Savant is the least recommended class for a good portion of this game’s roster, but I have been surprised before on how well a character can perform in this role.

A quick example I can give you right away is Yuri as a Mortal Savant can still double, Warriors, Warlocks and Snipers despite the speed decrease. I’m working towards weight -3 for him to make his attack speed somewhat of a non issue going forward.

I do recall a video I once saw where a guy used Byleth as a Mortal Savant for his Golden Deer maddening run and used the Thyrsus Staff and Black Magic Range +1 to take out Charon. He also showed how you can kill Nemesis in one turn. Here’s the video if you’re interested.

 

Edited by Barren

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3 hours ago, Barren said:

I never did try making Byleth A Mortal Savant but perhaps for a Black Eagles maddening run I could try it and see if it’s good. I know that Mortal Savant is the least recommended class for a good portion of this game’s roster, but I have been surprised before on how well a character can perform in this role.

A quick example I can give you right away is Yuri as a Mortal Savant can still double, Warriors, Warlocks and Snipers despite the speed decrease. I’m working towards weight -3 for him to make his attack speed somewhat of a non issue going forward.

Mortal Savant is a mage class, so I'm not sure how well someone like Yuri would do in it? He doesn't really have that great a spell list IMO. I guess Silence is neat utility, and if you were thinking about making him his native Trickster, MS is absolutely an upgrade on that (-faires, more magic uses). Honestly I feel kinda similarly about Byleth with regard with both MS and EO, although the big advantage of Enlightened One is that you get it for free, so it's a nice fallback if you don't train Byleth much (for non-recruiting reasons). But if you're not planning to make magic a big part of your build then it's just worse than Assassin, because of the speed difference. And it really isn't hard to get a +sword character to the Assassin requirements.

I think the people who do best in it are mages who also want Swordfaire (so all the ones with a magical sword combat art), though I could see some hybrid characters with neat spell lists doing well in it perhaps.

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10 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Mortal Savant is a mage class, so I'm not sure how well someone like Yuri would do in it? He doesn't really have that great a spell list IMO. I guess Silence is neat utility, and if you were thinking about making him his native Trickster, MS is absolutely an upgrade on that (-faires, more magic uses). Honestly I feel kinda similarly about Byleth with regard with both MS and EO, although the big advantage of Enlightened One is that you get it for free, so it's a nice fallback if you don't train Byleth much (for non-recruiting reasons). But if you're not planning to make magic a big part of your build then it's just worse than Assassin, because of the speed difference. And it really isn't hard to get a +sword character to the Assassin requirements.

I think the people who do best in it are mages who also want Swordfaire (so all the ones with a magical sword combat art), though I could see some hybrid characters with neat spell lists doing well in it perhaps.

While this maybe not the right thread for this I do apologize for the side track, I think my thought process was that Yuri is really fast thanks to him having a 65% speed growth. Yes his magic growth of 35% isn’t great and like you said his reason spell list isn’t the greatest in the world. The wind elemental tomes are very light so I figured his speed being really high will allow him to double more often than Annette could. They have the exact same spell list in that order. Since Wind has a weight of 2, weight -3 makes that tome weightless. Even cutting gale with a weight of 5 can go down thanks to that ability. I haven’t fully tested this build for him yet but so far it’s working out even with just using wind.

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Just FYI, Weight-3 can't make weight negative, so as you soon as you have 10 strength, it doesn't do anything for Wind. (Does help with the heavier spells still of course.)

The formula for Attack Speed is (Speed - Extra Weight), where Extra Weight is (total Weight of weapon/spell and any equipped accessory - Str/5 - any other weight mitigation skills).

Edited by Dark Holy Elf

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I see that is good to note. So anything with a weight of 3 or less doesn’t really do much but is more effective on heavier tomes. Good to know

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Bishop's the best class for a male white mage (so basically just Linhardt). But anyone with tits is going to want to upgrade to Gremory eventually. Chances are the character's magic will be strong enough for the extra healing from Healind+ won't make a difference.

19 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Mortal Savant is rather clearly better than Enlightened One if both are available. They're similar classes (6 move, Swordfaire, full magic access), but Mortal Savant has Black Tomefaire and EO does not. Enlightened One's advantage is that you get it for free, and most likely before Level 30. But Mortal Savant's superiority definitely came up for me when I made a magic-focused Byleth as part of my all-mage run.

But what about Terrain Resistance! Most useful spell in the game XD For all of the three maps it's actually used on.

Edited by Jotari

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I'd say Bishop is a good endgame class for Linhardt (as it's his only 2-warp, 10-Physic option) and Mercedes (Healing +10 synergizes splendidly with Physic and Fortify). It's also a good waypoint class for Lysithea, Marianne, Flayn, and Manuela, too (all of whom would rather end in Gremory - easier said than done for Manuela).

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