"Warlock" is the good class ?

[drattakbowser]

- Black Magic use X2

- Black Tomefaire

Pretty good this class ?

[Armchair General]

It depends.

[------]

Dark Knight/Flier and Gremory exist, so... yeah Warlock sucks pretty bad. I can't justify using it on anyone, really.

[Armchair General]

8 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Dark Knight/Flier and Gremory exist, so... yeah Warlock sucks pretty bad. I can't justify using it on anyone, really.

So is there actually enough archers to justify Bowbreaker throughout the four routes? Since I just cleared the GD map where you have to chase down the Death Knight and I just realized that I'm chapter 17 or 18 and I haven't seen a Bow Knight. And it's been quite a while since I seen a Sniper, come to think of it.

[drattakbowser]

My Dorothea Warlock class have double "Meteor" and more powerful with Tomefair.

[drattakbowser]

58 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Dark Knight/Flier and Gremory exist, so... yeah Warlock sucks pretty bad. I can't justify using it on anyone, really.

Dark Knight/Flier have no Double Spell and Gremory have no Tomefair so it's a little problem for them.

[Jotari]

Okay, if this is going to be a trend I think it's best to address the grammar of the title now. Saying Warlock is the good class? suggests there's only one option for a good class. If that is what you're saying then it's best to say Is Warlock the best class?  But I don't think is what you mean, and I think people were probably harsher on Bishop than they might otherwise have been because of the title. What I think you want to ask is how good warlock is as a class. The best title for that would be Is Warlock a good class?

52 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

So is there actually enough archers to justify Bowbreaker throughout the four routes? Since I just cleared the GD map where you have to chase down the Death Knight and I just realized that I'm chapter 17 or 18 and I haven't seen a Bow Knight. And it's been quite a while since I seen a Sniper, come to think of it.

Are you playing Maddening? While I still wouldn't say there's a lot of them on Maddening, the extra range they have cutting off potential counters does make them a lot more troublesome to deal with, so Bow Breaker might have its uses for no selling them on enemy phase while you deal with the units behind them. The Monastery defense chapter is one such occasion I can think of where archers harrow your progress. Though like any game with Bow Breaker you're best off transferring it to a flying class who will make the most use of it.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

If you're going to keep making threads like this for all the other classes, I seriously suggest improving your grammar.

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Though like any game with Bow Breaker you're best off transferring it to a flying class who will make the most use of it.

Unfortunately, in this game, Bowbreaker is only effective if you're using magic.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Armchair General]

56 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Are you playing Maddening? While I still wouldn't say there's a lot of them on Maddening, the extra range they have cutting off potential counters does make them a lot more troublesome to deal with, so Bow Breaker might have its uses for no selling them on enemy phase while you deal with the units behind them. The Monastery defense chapter is one such occasion I can think of where archers harrow your progress. Though like any game with Bow Breaker you're best off transferring it to a flying class who will make the most use of it.

Playing on Hard. Kind of disappointed on how easy it is. The only thinking that I have to do (aside from killing the Death Knight) is wondering how long my tank will survive against 5 or 6 enemies. And to surprise of nobody, Raphael still lives with half his health left.

I have more fun playing War of the Chosen, tbh.

[Armchair General]

45 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Unfortunately, in this game, Bowbreaker is only effective if you're using magic.

Aren't archers easy to kill, by default? I don't recall seeing any with Close Combat. But then again, it's been a while since I played FE.

 

46 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

If you're going to keep making threads like this for all the other classes, I seriously suggest improving your grammar.

I'm pretty sure that he knows, at this point.

[Gordin]

For non healing males it's pretty much the only viable option (Like hubert)

[Armchair General]

4 minutes ago, Gordin said:

For non healing males it's pretty much the only viable option (Like hubert)

Well, you have the Dark Bishop if you can't qualify for the Dark Knight.

[Gordin]

2 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Well, you have the Dark Bishop if you can't qualify for the Dark Knight.

Dark Bishop is trash. Atleast Warlock gets Fiending Blow as a mastery skill

[Armchair General]

8 minutes ago, Gordin said:

Dark Bishop is trash. Atleast Warlock gets Fiending Blow as a mastery skill

I'm confused, I thought that Warlock gets Bowbreaker and Dark Bishop has Fiendish Blow.

[Barren]

22 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

I'm confused, I thought that Warlock gets Bowbreaker and Dark Bishop has Fiendish Blow.

Dark Bishop has Fiendish Blow as a class ability along with Miasma and Heartseeker. Dark Bishops learn Lifetaker upon mastery.

Mage can learn Fiendish Blow by mastering the class so they can’t stack together.

Warlocks do get Bowbreaker upon mastery. Unless you plan on transitioning a girl to a Dark Flier it’s kind of a waste. Maybe DK Sylvain with his budding talent in reason magic can help with the avoid but that’s about it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

3 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Dark Knight/Flier and Gremory exist, so... yeah Warlock sucks pretty bad. I can't justify using it on anyone, really.

I don't think that's really fair, since Warlock exists prior to Level 30. Without DLC, lots of people want to go through it from Level 20-29, and some people might want to stay there later. Even with DLC I wouldn't write it off.

Compared to Bishop, unless you're planning to heal a lot or you have a faith spell you want to double the uses of (which is mostly the Warp/Fortify users) then Warlock looks better. They deal substantially more damage, get twice as many offensive spell uses (particularly notable for Thoron, Meteor, and Bolting), and are generally easier to qualify for because many units stop getting new useful faith spells after C, while almost everyone gets useful Reason spells (and Reason eventually leads to Black/Dark Range+1, a great skill, and being a Warlock helps you speed you there).

Dark Bishop is a bad joke for most units, because its Fiendish Blow doesn''t stack with the one you surely already have and it doesn't provide Tomefaire or Uses x2. Heartseeker sounds cool but good luck making use of it with 4 move. The only person who would even consider it is Hubert, and even then it's largely a clone of Warlock for him (and requires you kill or steal from the Death Knight twice, which isn't precisely hard but I often don't bother).

The DLC adds some good options, of course. Dark Flier is outstanding, but it should be noted that there's only one good flying magical battalion, so any Dark Flier you make beyond the first is giving up something like 10 damage to be there, which is a notable hit given that mages spend much of this level range dishing out OHKOs. Valkyrie is great too of course, trading flying/mobility for even more range and doesn't have this issue, but you're still leaving both power and spell uses on the table compared to Warlock.

Even at Level 30, Warlock still offers Tomefaire over Gremory (and of course male mages can't go to Gremory). I think the only units I'd seriously consider keeping in Warlock at this point are Hanneman and Dorothea, because they appreciate the second Meteor (and it's Hanneman's only choice for it), and Dorothea has so many options at long range that she can still contribute in a 4 move class, Gremory vs Warlock for her is basically 1 move vs 3 power.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Dark Holy Elf

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

If you're going to keep making threads like this for all the other classes, I seriously suggest improving your grammar.

Come on now, they're probably not a native speaker. We can be nice about these things.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Unfortunately, in this game, Bowbreaker is only effective if you're using magic.

What really? Huh, that's a weird choice. Does it work on the Dark Pegasus?

[------]

@Dark Holy Elf

My bad, I probably could've worded that a bit more clearly. What I meant was that Warlock isn't good as an endgame class (like we were talking about in the Bishop topic), not that you shouldn't ever use it. As a transition from Mage to one of the other classes I mentioned, it works great. But I don't think I could name anyone who'd be better off staying in Warlock once the other options become available. Hanneman misses out on that second Meteor, sure, but Dark Knight offers him Tomefaire along with 7 Mov and Canto. Where Thoron's gonna be his go-to for the bulk of the fight, he grabs a better deal from Dark Knight's increased mobility. Same with Dorothea, really. Even with Black Magic x2, Meteor's still only two casts. The rest of the time, Thoron and Sagittae are her bread and butter. Even with Thyrsus, she's really gonna feel that 4 Mov in Warlock. Gremory lets her keep that second Meteor, but also helps improve her mobility. It doubles her uses of Physic as well, if that's at all of interest.

Edited June 13, 2021 by RainbowMoon

[Shadow Mir]

54 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Come on now, they're probably not a native speaker. We can be nice about these things.

Ehh, I just had to get it out of my system. It just bothers me that their posts almost always seem to be hard to read.

54 minutes ago, Jotari said:

What really? Huh, that's a weird choice. Does it work on the Dark Pegasus?

Yeah, though I'd consider it better to not risk it, or at least dismount.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Come on now, they're probably not a native speaker. We can be nice about these things.

What really? Huh, that's a weird choice. Does it work on the Dark Pegasus?

It works if you have a Black/Dark spell equipped, so yeah it works on Dark Pegasus. It works quite well to help dodgetank archers at the edge of their range regardless of class (where they're already taking a hit penalty), but I do consider this a bit of a niche skill.

 

16 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

My bad, I probably could've worded that a bit more clearly. What I meant was that Warlock isn't good as an endgame class (like we were talking about in the Bishop topic), not that you shouldn't ever use it. As a transition from Mage to one of the other classes I mentioned, it works great. But I don't think I could name anyone who'd be better off staying in Warlock once the other options become available. Hanneman misses out on that second Meteor, sure, but Dark Knight offers him Tomefaire along with 7 Mov and Canto. Where Thoron's gonna be his go-to for the bulk of the fight, he grabs a better deal from Dark Knight's increased mobility. Same with Dorothea, really. Even with Black Magic x2, Meteor's still only two casts. The rest of the time, Thoron and Sagittae are her bread and butter. Even with Thyrsus, she's really gonna feel that 4 Mov in Warlock. Gremory lets her keep that second Meteor, but also helps improve her mobility. It doubles her uses of Physic as well, if that's at all of interest.

Yeah, all of that's true.

Extra Meteors can be quite decisive, especially since you don't actually want to cast the last one until late in a fight, because its effect on linked attacks/gambits is so potent. But you do give up a lot of move.

Worth noting the Riding/Lance training isn't totally trivial for either. Hanneman doesn't join until Chapter 8 and has E/D in those skills (as well as D authority and E faith, so he's got lots of training to do in less time), Dorothea has a bane in riding. Gremory of course is easy for her (even though she gets nothing in Faith after C, she'll easily get to C+ just through natural use, possibly even B). I've definitely held her in Warlock a bit longer when I mathed out and noticed some OHKOs she needed the extra power to get, but Gremory is better overall.

[UNLEASH IT]

I doubt that there are many characters who actually have the spell list to take advantage of Gremory's skills so warlock seems to be a better choice for offense oriented mages (especially ones with siege magic)

Edited June 13, 2021 by UNLEASH IT

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Warlock is kind of the ideal Black (not Dark) Magic class, if you have a unit who specializes in that. As an endgame class, it makes sense for Hanneman, and... um... all those male offensive mages who have low-count spells and no easy road to Dark Knight. Okay, so not very many. Sylvain and Lorenz make more sense as Dark Knights, while your female offensive mages will generally prefer Gremory (or Dark Knight, or Valkyrie, or Dark Flier). Gremory misses out on Black Tomefaire, but has a Magic modifier of 5 (versus 3 for Warlock) - so while Warlock does 3 more damage, it loses out on 1 move, plus the doubled Faith charges.

As a waypoint class, a decent number of units could enjoy it. Dorothea, Annette, and Constance can all use it on the way to Gremory. Or as a means to get Bowbreaker, if your end goal is Dark Flier. Sylvain and Lorenz could take it on en route to Dark Knight, as well (although, they have an easier time just being a Paladin). It's not a terrible choice for units like Linhardt, Mercedes, or Flayn, even as those units are more associated with Faith. Finally, we get the weirdest picks - Hilda, Manuela, and Anna. None of them are gifted in Reason, but they all deserve a mention for getting siege spells - and potentially appreciating the double uses and faire.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

What really? Huh, that's a weird choice. Does it work on the Dark Pegasus?

All the Breaker skills depend on having the proper weapon type equipped. I.e. Lancebreaker only works with Axes equipped, and Tomebreaker only works when using Gauntlets. This seemed to be their way of creating a "parallel" weapon triangle, except that they forgot to give Fistbreaker to anyone.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Dark Bishop is a bad joke for most units, because its Fiendish Blow doesn''t stack with the one you surely already have and it doesn't provide Tomefaire or Uses x2. Heartseeker sounds cool but good luck making use of it with 4 move. The only person who would even consider it is Hubert, and even then it's largely a clone of Warlock for him (and requires you kill or steal from the Death Knight twice, which isn't precisely hard but I often don't bother).

Dark Bishop only really works if you went Dark Mage (and thereby picked up Poison Strike) rather than Mage (thus missing Fiendish Blow). Hell, you need Dark Mage certification to even try to go for Dark Bishop, so this definitely seemed intentional. I do like that Dark Mage has 1 more point of Magic than Mage - and Miasma has 2 more Might (but 10 less Hit) than Fire. So I think there's a case for going Dark Mage rather than Mage, even if Fiendish Blow is overall preferable to Poison Strike. In which case, Dark Bishop would be more attractive than Warlock, as class-based Fiendish Blow (plus a Magic mod of 4) is better on player-phase than Black Tomefaire (plus a Magic mod of 3) without equippable Fiendish Blow. Granted, if your end goal is Dark Knight (or Mortal Savant), then you want equippable Fiendish Blow - leaving Dark Bishop without it is a bitter pill.

As for Heartseeker, I'd call it a very cool skill on just the wrong class. A 4-move magic specialist is going to have a very hard time getting up close and personal with the foe - they'll be reliant on long-range attacking options. This game gives you a lot of ways to boost your spell range, which is welcome, but attacking from afar means Heartseeker is doing you no favors. Caspar's personal skill, Born Fighter, is a weaker version of this (reduces enemy avoid by 10), but since Caspar is likely to have an actual move stat, and attack at melee range (say, as a Grappler or War Master), I get much more use out of his version of it. I'd like to see more Heartseeker in the future, but on a unit or class who can actually make good use of it.

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

All the Breaker skills depend on having the proper weapon type equipped. I.e. Lancebreaker only works with Axes equipped, and Tomebreaker only works when using Gauntlets. This seemed to be their way of creating a "parallel" weapon triangle, except that they forgot to give Fistbreaker to anyone.

I knew that for the classic triangle of Lance, Axe and Sword, as they gave breaker skills to every enemy in maddening to simulate the weapon triangle, but only for the enemies. I wasn't really aware that they added in a secondary triangle for the other weapons. Guess I just figured those weapons were off triangle and working like normal breaker skills. Shows how much investment I saw fit to put into them. I probably read it only works with a specific weapon type two years ago and thus ditched them entirely.

Sounds like it would be decent on Dark Flier though.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Jotari

[------]

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Worth noting the Riding/Lance training isn't totally trivial for either. Hanneman doesn't join until Chapter 8 and has E/D in those skills (as well as D authority and E faith, so he's got lots of training to do in less time)

There's always the option of temporarily slapping an Experience/Knowledge Gem on him if he's having any trouble catching up. I've done this before with late-join units like Seteth and it's seemed to make a difference. Helps with mastering some of the earlier classes (like Mage) quicker too.

[Barren]

Maybe what we ought to do in the future is instead of creating a thread to rate each and every single class, why not just create a thread that rates the beginner to master class forms that way it would be less clutter. Like we can exclude Noble/Commoner because they are the basics of basics class and they give HP+5.