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Jotari

Future Valantian banners or, how are they going to handle Cipher?

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So with the recent Shadows of Valentia banner it means we probably won't be seeing any more Shadows of Valentia additions for a while. But with the recent addition, the number of Shadows of Valentia characters not left in the game has grown very small. It seems likely we will only have two more Shadows of Valentia banners in the entire game, unless they want to start making banners entirely made of alts. From my casual glancing I think we are only missing seven playable characters.

*Atlas

*Est

*Kamui

*Jesse

*Deen

*Nomah

*Mycen

In addition to them we are still missing some particularly noteworthy enemy characters in the form of original Rudolf and Jeddah. Desaix, Slayde, Sonya's sisters, Nuibaba and Grieth might also be considered important enough to warrant a Grand Hero battle addition (wow looking at that they've given us plenty of playable Shadows of Valentia characters but barely any villains, it's basically just been Berkut and Duma), but I really don't see them making an entire banner for just the villains. So I reckon we'll see Rudolf and Jeddah included on the next banners as Grand Hero Battles, or maybe on the banner themself if they want to make them good (seven playable characters leaves one banner spot open for a villain). Deen might also be regulated to Grand Hero Battle status, which would make a lot of sense as he's be a sword user and we already have Jesse and Kamui as sword users. Maybe the next two banners might look like this.

Est (Green flying mage, unlikely, but it's what I want), Atlas (Colourless Bow), Kamui (Red), Rudolf (blue) - Grand Hero Battle Deen

Jesse (Red), Mycen (Blue), Nomah (Green), Jeddah (Colourless) - Grand Hero Battle Desaix

They could stretch it out further by having OC units share the banner, like they've done this time with Nott, but I still don't see it spilling over into three banners unless they're really generous with the villains they let in. In fact it's probably more likely an original character could kick Jeddah off my proposed banner into Grand Hero Battle and kick Desaix out of the game entirely.

 

Then of course we have the second part of this question, which is a potential third banner featuring the Cipher units that were DLC in Shadows of Valentia. Conveniently enough there's four of them, the perfect size for a banner in Heroes (plus more Grand Hero Battle space for the lower tier villains like Desaix). But, as I understand it, there are exactly 8 characters original to Cipher, and half of them got into Shadows of Valentia as DLC. So if Emma, Yuzu, Shade and Randal all get in as Shadows of Valentia characters, where does that leave Alice, Niamg, Poe and Valjean? Would they need to wait until they cameo in a newer Fire Emblem game  before they have an opportunity to get into Heroes? Or would it be better to release Emma, Yuzu, Shade and Randal under a new Cipher category, like the way TMS has its own Category (personally I'd actually combine Cipher's category with TMS's category to make some kind of spinoff category to regulate all the characters like this to, as TMS is never going to be big enough to stand on its own as a category compared to the other games). Characters can be in two game categories at the same time though, so I guess its possible they could market the Echoes DLC units as Shadows of Valentia characters, but then give them dual categories when the other Cipher characters are released.

Eh, maybe I'm over thinking all this. What do you think about the future of Shadows of Valentia and Cipher Banners? Do you think they could squeeze out a third banner by giving us more villains? And how do you think it's best they handle the cipher units? And can we meme the hot blacksmith lady into the next CYL winner?

 

 

Edited by Jotari

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I don't see them putting more than two of the six remaining playable male characters on a single banner. So if they want to give them all regular versions, I think that'll take three banners, with alts and maybe some non-playable characters filling the other slots. Faye is the cleanest fit for an alt, since she's a Villager, but in addition, Saint/Priestess/Harrier all use multiple weapon types. So there are a lot of options even without going as far off the rails as... say, Faye's original version.

I think the Cipher characters are likely to get added eventually, but classified separately as Cipher characters. If so, Limited Hero Battles will probably group them with TMS characters, as well as Warriors characters if those ever get added, but I think they'll still remain separate for the purposes of Resonant Battles and Harmonic effects. Same treatment as the Jugdral and Tellius games, basically.

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I don't think we'll be seeing a new Valentian banner anytime soon. I think Echoes has long reached the point where everyone the devs really wanted to add, and those they felt they needed to add are already in the game. I don't see them putting up banners for side characters like Atlas and Kamui or old people like Mycen. I think its more likely we'll see one or two sprinkled into different seasonals and that others simply won't get added at all.

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Est (Green flying mage, unlikely, but it's what I want), Sonya (Grieth Pirates version), Kamui (Red), Rudolf (blue) - Grand Hero Battle Deen

Mycen (Blue), Desaix, Nomah (Green), Nuibaba (Red flying) - Slayde Grand Hero Battle

Atlas (Green, reference his woodcutter background), Marla+Hestia Duo (Flying Blue), Jesse (Red), Jedah (Colorless) - Time Trial Halcyon 

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1 hour ago, Othin said:

I don't see them putting more than two of the six remaining playable male characters on a single banner. So if they want to give them all regular versions, I think that'll take three banners, with alts and maybe some non-playable characters filling the other slots. Faye is the cleanest fit for an alt, since she's a Villager, but in addition, Saint/Priestess/Harrier all use multiple weapon types. So there are a lot of options even without going as far off the rails as... say, Faye's original version.

I think the Cipher characters are likely to get added eventually, but classified separately as Cipher characters. If so, Limited Hero Battles will probably group them with TMS characters, as well as Warriors characters if those ever get added, but I think they'll still remain separate for the purposes of Resonant Battles and Harmonic effects. Same treatment as the Jugdral and Tellius games, basically.

Are they in the habit of adding alts to regular old banners? Most alts are still special in some way being a seasonal or a legendary version or a fallen unit. The only regular banner I can think of that had an alt off the top of my head is a pegasus Olivia on an otherwise normal Awakening banner, though I'm sure there are other examples. There was those Valla Corrins and Camilla on that Young Azura banner, that was technically a regular banner, but that was just a weird thing over all. And all of that stuff was also quite a while ago. I don't think there have been many alts on regular banners lately. We'll probably see a lot more as Three Houses releases more units as War Phase alts, but even that is kind of special circumstances.

18 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I don't think we'll be seeing a new Valentian banner anytime soon. I think Echoes has long reached the point where everyone the devs really wanted to add, and those they felt they needed to add are already in the game. I don't see them putting up banners for side characters like Atlas and Kamui or old people like Mycen. I think its more likely we'll see one or two sprinkled into different seasonals and that others simply won't get added at all.

Well no, it's not likely to happen any time soon, it's literally the first line of my post. But I don't think that means they're just never going to make another Shadows of Valentia banner ever again. I expect we'll see at least one more within the next two years. They really need to find a way to put in default Rudolf and Jeddah at the very least.

11 minutes ago, Mysterique Sign said:

Est (Green flying mage, unlikely, but it's what I want), Sonya (Grieth Pirates version), Kamui (Red), Rudolf (blue) - Grand Hero Battle Deen

Mycen (Blue), Desaix, Nomah (Green), Nuibaba (Red flying) - Slayde Grand Hero Battle

Atlas (Green, reference his woodcutter background), Marla+Hestia Duo (Flying Blue), Jesse (Red), Jedah (Colorless) - Time Trial Halcyon 

What colour unit are you suggesting for Grieth variation of Sonya? A colourless tome unit?

Halcyon is another good pick for a unit even though he doesn't fight in game. I've never considered him, but yeah, I could see them outright putting him on a banner.

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25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Are they in the habit of adding alts to regular old banners? Most alts are still special in some way being a seasonal or a legendary version or a fallen unit. The only regular banner I can think of that had an alt off the top of my head is a pegasus Olivia on an otherwise normal Awakening banner, though I'm sure there are other examples. There was those Valla Corrins and Camilla on that Young Azura banner, that was technically a regular banner, but that was just a weird thing over all. And all of that stuff was also quite a while ago. I don't think there have been many alts on regular banners lately. We'll probably see a lot more as Three Houses releases more units as War Phase alts, but even that is kind of special circumstances.

They did it pretty regularly for the first half of 2018. Most of those banners had an alt: Eirika, Chrom, Olwen/Reinhardt, Hinoka, Nino, and Olivia. You could also make a case for including Zelgius and the first Fallen banner, those had more canon justification but seem to tie into the same philosophy. The FE4 banner was the only one from that timeframe to not have some sort of alt.

They stopped that approach after about six months, probably in part due to complaints from players more interested in digging into the big backlog of units. But that backlog is a lot smaller now than it was then, and rosters that have run this low give more "justification" for those alts, making it harder to complain if they came back. The Valentian Whitewings are sort of a return to this for FE2 - they don't get depicted much differently in the original games. There's also the matter of Duo Ephraim, who's a bit of a special case but also very much an alt from an otherwise regular banner.

With all that in mind, I think IS plans on gradually reintroducing this approach as games run low on marketable units, and FE2 has the most need for it right now.

Edited by Othin

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17 minutes ago, Othin said:

They did it pretty regularly for the first half of 2018. Most of those banners had an alt: Eirika, Chrom, Olwen/Reinhardt, Hinoka, Nino, and Olivia. You could also make a case for including Zelgius and the first Fallen banner, those had more canon justification but seem to tie into the same philosophy. The FE4 banner was the only one from that timeframe to not have some sort of alt.

They stopped that approach after about six months, probably in part due to complaints from players more interested in digging into the big backlog of units. But that backlog is a lot smaller now than it was then, and rosters that have run this low give more "justification" for those alts, making it harder to complain if they came back. The Valentian Whitewings are sort of a return to this for FE2 - they don't get depicted much differently in the original games. There's also the matter of Duo Ephraim, who's a bit of a special case but also very much an alt from an otherwise regular banner.

With all that in mind, I think IS plans on gradually reintroducing this approach as games run low on marketable units, and FE2 has the most need for it right now.

Touche. Very sound logic on your part. Aside from Faye, some more alts could get us Lance Infantry Gray or Tobin. It was pure lunacy to make both of them Sword Infantry when they have such freedom to be anything and sword infantry is such an inflated type already. Their foresight on this matter is just really confusing, they made Raven an axe user to prempt the bloat, but made two different villagers sword units, I don't know what they're thinking. It certainly wasn't fidelity to default classes considering they went and made Faye a bow unit. Lance infantry Forsyth is also something we could see some day. And while he hasn't even got into the game yet aside from a seasonal, I'd love to see Rudolf actually using the Falchion (I still think it's a bit silly he's in a class that can't use swords in game, I really feel they should have dropped the mono weapon types for everyone game design in Shadows of Valentia). I'd also love to see a proper slime version of Duma, though my hopes aren't very high for that and if it were to happen it'd probably be on a special banner rather than a regular one.

Edited by Jotari

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I think they would pretty much have to use the cipher characters if they are going to make a new echoes banner.

I mean Kamui, Atlus Jesse, Deen and lolNomah. I can see one or maybe two of those units being on the banner, but none of those are really banner sellers. Neither is Mycen, but he has story importance going for him. Out of all the characters left the only one with 'star power' is Est and even that might be pushing it a bit.

But if you take Yuzu, Shade and Emma you have a lot more room to make a 'proper' banner. Doing it that way might even stop the white wings from crashing another Valentia banner.

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2 minutes ago, Sasori said:

I think they would pretty much have to use the cipher characters if they are going to make a new echoes banner.

I mean Kamui, Atlus Jesse, Deen and lolNomah. I can see one or maybe two of those units being on the banner, but none of those are really banner sellers. Neither is Mycen, but he has story importance going for him. Out of all the characters left the only one with 'star power' is Est and even that might be pushing it a bit.

But if you take Yuzu, Shade and Emma you have a lot more room to make a 'proper' banner. Doing it that way might even stop the white wings from crashing another Valentia banner.

So do you think there's a possibility they could break up the Cipher characters and implement them into separate banners? I was kind of thinking that regardless as to whether they're classed as Echoes or Cipher characters, all four of them would be presented together on one banner. It's not like they have much star power individually themselves. The noteworthy thing is that they are Cipher originals. So including them and making an event of the fact that Cipher content is getting in would probably work better than something like a banner with Kamui and Shade.

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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So do you think there's a possibility they could break up the Cipher characters and implement them into separate banners? I was kind of thinking that regardless as to whether they're classed as Echoes or Cipher characters, all four of them would be presented together on one banner. It's not like they have much star power individually themselves. The noteworthy thing is that they are Cipher originals. So including them and making an event of the fact that Cipher content is getting in would probably work better than something like a banner with Kamui and Shade.

I think its practical to use the echoes Cipher characters to fill in some gaps in the echoes rosters. Like you said they don't have much star power by themselves so I don't think a full Cipher banner would have much appeal. Not only did many people (including me) skip out on that dlc, but they also aren't the most amazing characters.

But Echoes is out of female characters so they could put in Yuzu as a additional character. Give her a bit of a res targeting red sword unit and you have a unique character to put alongside the less popular echoes characters.

Edited by Sasori

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12 minutes ago, Sasori said:

I think its practical to use the echoes Cipher characters to fill in some gaps in the echoes rosters. Like you said they don't have much star power by themselves so I don't think a full Cipher banner would have much appeal. Not only did many people (including me) skip out on that dlc, but they also aren't the most amazing characters.

But Echoes is out of female characters so they could put in Yuzu as a additional character. Give her a bit of a res targeting red sword unit and you have a unique character to put alongside the less popular echoes characters.

If they don't have much star power innately then I don't think adding to other banners is really going to work out any better. It's just another character people don't know anything about. But if presented together and billed as a special addition then they're a group of characters people don't know about and could be intrigued by. Any interesting gameplay aspects of them that could be given to them just as easily when they're as a group. If they're not going to be banner sellers together their sway will be even less if mixed among other characters. Ultimately we'll see though.

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I do think the Cipher Units will have their own Banner in their Echoes: Shadows of Valentia outfits. I still kind of wondered how IS will be going to bring the rest of Valentia characters in Heroes since we still have remaining units left till it's becomes a complete roster?

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12 minutes ago, King Marth 64 said:

I do think the Cipher Units will have their own Banner in their Echoes: Shadows of Valentia outfits. I still kind of wondered how IS will be going to bring the rest of Valentia characters in Heroes since we still have remaining units left till it's becomes a complete roster?

I said it in the OP. Seven from the palyable cast (excluding Cipher). And I'd wager at least two from the villain list though more are definitely possible.

 

Another pretty out there suggestion for a Shadows of Valentia character could be Grima as The Experiment. It would be a bit weird as it has no human form, and it might be better to save it for a mythic than a regular banner, but it is a crazy idea that's still vaguely possible.

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9 minutes ago, Florete said:

The solution is to go back to mixing games on New Heroes banners.

I really wish they would do that. Grouping all characters by games is a very limiting idea. Mixing it up by mixing things based on themes can be much more exciting. Fallen Heroes is one of the most popular banners and I think a lot of that stems more from it mixing up games and having a solid theme rather than people just really liking characters with purple swirls.

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22 minutes ago, Florete said:

The solution is to go back to mixing games on New Heroes banners.

That's just moving around the issue. SOV can steal marketable characters from other games, but then they'll have a harder time supporting their own less marketable ones. Many of them are similarly running low.

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It's gonna be a full year before we see another dedicated Echoes New Heroes banner, likely even a little longer. When/if that banner does eventually happen, I'm positive that Est, Mycen, and Kamui will be on it. I had thought that maybe Nomah or Atlas could be the fourth character but, honestly, I think it's far more likely that they'll end up making Rudolph or Jedah the fourth banner character, with the other being the GHB. After that? I don't see another Echoes banner, not without multiple alts. I feel like Nomah, Atlas, Jesse, and Deen will only ever get into Heroes on seasonal banners, or possibly hitching along as the demote on a mixed game banner (if they ever do those again).

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I think the best way to go ins introducing the DLC Cypher characters as Valentia Units. If they do that they will still have three more years of banners with new characters to introduce. Not making a banner exclusive to Cypher, but mixing them with Echoes characters.  

 

There's also the possibility that they add new Heroes OCS  like they did in the recent Echoes banner, to get the attention of 'casuals'. 

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